WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT IF TWO AGREE ABOUT ANYTHING, IT WILL BE DONE FOR THEM?

  

 

Matthew 18:19 NIV says, “Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.”

 

If you interpret this verse literally as two Christians agreeing about anything, it does not prove true. I believe that the entire Bible is perfect. If this verse could be taken as any two Christians agreeing about something that the outcome would be guaranteed and it worked, then we would all be rich. If you think otherwise you have forgotten our basic nature.

 

Picture two people agreeing that each should be driving an expensive car. We want the best for our brothers, don’t we? I could do without the car but my brother loves me and he wants me to have it! I think you can see that it wouldn’t be too hard to twist the meaning of the verse to our worldly advantage.

 

It wouldn’t be any stretch of imagination to picture two individuals realizing that on this earth it takes money to spread the word: because it does. When you factor in human nature it would only be logical that if they prayed for money and Matthew 18:19 was correct then God would pour out that money.

 

I believe that this logic is so close to correct it confuses many. There are preachers that preach this very idea. The problem is that it leaves out the Spirit of God. The Bible states, “Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD Almighty”. (Money is power) Instead of asking God for money to spread the Word I think it would be better to ask that He give us what ever it takes and leave it up to Him to supply it. It will take money sometimes, but other times it might take something other than money. The Church might need a more enthusiastic leader, or a gift of land, or something that is not apparent at all.

 

I wonder if anyone else has realized that because the Spirit of God lives in us we are always two! If you are in the wilderness, or in a crowd, you are never alone. Now if you can convince the Spirit of God that you need an expensive car then you will have it.

 

There might be some situations where such a car would be necessary, or for some other reason that God would give one to a person, so don’t judge it wrong if you see your brother driving one. I am only using a car as an example; it could be any item of luxury. Don’t take me wrong. If God grants you wealth then enjoy it. When I consider 1 Sam 2:7 I think it would be an insult to God not to.

 

I would write some more on the subject, but I need the time to convince my Spirit that I really need a new Ferrari. Will somebody agree with me? (I’d settle for a Vet)

 

 

19 Responses to WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT IF TWO AGREE ABOUT ANYTHING, IT WILL BE DONE FOR THEM?

  1. It’s important to read this in its context starting at verse 15.

  2. hokku says:

    The simple and correct answer is that it means the Bible was wrong again. No need to look for mysterious explanations, any more than for Jesus’ supposed remark in the Apocalypse that he would be coming quickly. That did not happen either.

  3. astudent says:

    Jeff,
    Thanks for the input. You make a good point.

    I have heard the verse used to indicate that we can have our way so many times that I was trying to show that it could not be taken literally.

    After considering your comment it seems to me that the whole chapter is about how God would have us treat others.

    The only valid point that I presented in my post is that there is always two gathered together in God’s name when you have the Holy Spirit.

    Taking that approach if the Holy Spirit and you agree that someone should be forgiven then they will be (Verse 19). I believe that the Holy Spirit will always take the position that the person should be forgiven for doing anything to us and it is up to us to see it His way.

    If there are two humans gathered together then there are three beings, because God is with them. Anyway that is my interpretation of verse 20.

  4. astudent says:

    hokku,
    It is impossible for the Bible to be wrong again, because it hasn’t been wrong the first time. My explanations may seem mysterious to you, but your accusations seem just as mysterious to me. It is impossible to determine the correct answer if both views are not truthfully considered. I use to sound just like you until I really thought about God.

    When Jesus stated that He would be coming quickly He was speaking as God. Time doesn’t revolve around any man. The length of a man’s life seems a long time to him, but it is a mere blink of the eye to God and generations are only seconds. You see with the eyes of man and it doesn’t seem that God has come quickly, but you can not see and understand, because you do not want to.

    One who stands on a railroad track, with his eyes closed and his fingers in his ears, screaming there is no such thing as a train is not going to change the minds of those whose eyes are open, nor will it change the final outcome of his actions.

  5. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “It is impossible for the Bible to be wrong again, because it hasn’t been wrong the first time.”

    You go on to say:
    “When Jesus stated that He would be coming quickly He was speaking as God.”

    There is an important distinction to be made here. Whether he ws “speaking as God” or not is immaterial, because he was not speaking TO God — he was speaking to humans, using language they could presumably understand. And what the first Christians understood was that the Second Coming was at hand, that it was going to happen so quickly that Paul even cautioned against getting married unless one had to.

    But of course by the time the very late 2 Peter came around, Christians had begun to complain seriously that lots of people had died, and Jesus STILL had not come as he said he would. So the writer of 2 Peter attempted to do just what you are trying to do — he tried to find a loophole in the prophecy by saying that a day with God is like a thousand years. But of course that loose quoting of Psalm 90:4 does not say one day with God “IS” a thousand years — simply that it is LIKE (Greek “hos”) a thousand years. So the writer is misusing the quote here, just as the NT misuses many OT quotes.

    And we have only talked about TWO of the many things the Bible is wrong about — there are so many more, and we could begin at the beginning of Genesis detailing them, just as we have dealt with the end of the Apocalypse.

  6. hokku, if the earth has been (supposedly) around for millions or billions of years, couldn’t 3000 or 10,000 years be “soon”?

    Basing truth on our finite little minds can be a dangerous thing.

  7. astudent says:

    Hokku,
    You’re a funny guy. That’s why I like you.

    When I said Jesus was speaking as God I meant that God was speaking through Him.
    (John 8:28-29 NIV) So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”

    Neither the Old or New Testament states that a day “IS” a thousand years to God. Both say “like” and it is obvious that the point is we are not in the same time frame as God. At least it is clear to me, but then I am only trying to understand the Bible: not twist the meanings.
    (Psa 90:4 NIV) For a thousand years in your sight are LIKE a day that has just gone by, or LIKE a watch in the night.
    (2 Pet 3:8 NIV) But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is LIKE a thousand years, and a thousand years are LIKE a day.
    The quote in 2 Peter is not an exact copy of the one in Psalms and it doesn’t have to be in order to validate either one. They both convey the same thought.

    God chose not to tell us when the end was to be.
    (Acts 1:7 NIV) He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
    Jesus is not coming back until God tells Him to, so taking into account John 8:28, it should be clear that it is God’s words and God’s time frame.
    I don’t know if you have thought about it, but Jesus was really speaking about the end of time and time ends for all men when they physically die. Does it really matter to an individual if Jesus comes to them or they go to Jesus? If you have determined in your own mind that the end doesn’t come quickly then think about when your end comes; will you believe the same then, or will your prospective have changed? I’m betting you will think it is too darn quick!

    I find it ironic that you would accuse Peter of trying to find a loophole in prophecy. Isn’t that what are you trying to do?

    The bottom line is you have not found TWO things wrong, you have found TWO things you do not understand.

    Here is another thing that you do not understand. God speaks to man with words that they CAN understand, but if they REFUSE to understand then the same words make no sense to them. Don’t blame me I am only making an observation. I wish you could understand, but the choice is yours not mine.

  8. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “The bottom line is you have not found TWO things wrong, you have found TWO things you do not understand.”

    Not true. I understand them quite clearly. Jesus said he would come quickly, and he did not; two who “agree” in asking for something in prayer obviously are not likely to get it, because it has been tried many, many times.

    The problem here is that when you come to parts of the Bible that show it is obviously wrong, you read them through a mental filter you have over your mind — a filter that tells you the Bible cannot possibly be wrong, so anything that looks wrong, no matter how obvious, just is not “understood” in the right way. And of course there are quite a few varying explanations of what is “right” depending on which Christian you ask.

    The Bible is just a human, fallible book with lots of discrepancies, such as the one in which Jesus is supposed to spend three days and three nights in the tomb (Matthew 12:40). Try counting how many days and nights from the evening on Friday to Sunday morning and see if Matthew was right. Matthew also has Jesus riding into Jerusalem on TWO animals at once, a donkey and its foal (“They brought the donkey and the foal, and put their cloaks on them, and he sat on them” (Matthew 21:7). Good trick if you can do it! But Matthew misunderstood the OT quote he was using as prophecy, as he customarily misunderstood them; he did not recognize the parallelism of Hebrew, and though instead of one animal, there were two!

    Now to not recognize these errors and discrepancies in the Bible, one has to mentally ignore them, as though the Bible could not possibly mean what it says. But the fact is that what it says is simply mistaken, over and over again.

    If your mother calls from the store and says, “I am coming quickly,” is she likely to mean nearly 2,000 years and counting? Of course not, and the early Christians did not think so either, which is why they said Jesus would be back soon. Even Paul thought so, because he says “We shall all be changed” — not “Those people living a couple of thousand years from now might be changed, if Jesus decides to come back by then.” He indicated he would be alive when Jesus returned and the bodies of the living were transformed — but of course he was wrong. All it takes to see this is simply to read what the Bible says — not what one wants it to say, or what someone tells you it should mean, but what it actually says. And that shows it to be a very human and fallible document.

  9. hokku says:

    In addition, you wrote:
    “(2 Pet 3:8 NIV) But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is LIKE a thousand years, and a thousand years are LIKE a day.”

    As I wrote earlier, this is simply an attempt by the author to deal with the rising complaints among Christians that they seemed to have been “sold a bill of goods” — they had been and were dying off, and Jesus still had not come as promised. So 2 Peter came up with the “thousand days” loophole to explain it.

    First, non-fundamentalist scholars rightly regard 2 Peter as a very late writing, which of course explains why people were complaining that the promised “Second Coming” had not happened. Not only that, but the chances of it having been written by Peter are virtually nil. It is falsely given Peter’s name. It assumes the letters of Paul had been collected and regarded as “scripture” which would not have happened in Peter’s day; and further, 2 Peter itself plagiarizes another book of the Bible, Jude. If you have any doubt about that, compare 2 Peter 2:1-8 with Jude 4-16. So 2 Peter is really falsely written under a fake name.

    Further, if a day with God is to be regarded as a “thousand years” or more, which is essentially what you are saying, then why is the sabbath celebrated on the seventh 24-hour day? After all, the seven days of creation in Genesis were “evening and morning” days — ordinary days obviously — And Exodus 20:9-11 says,
    “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God, for in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth and rested on the seventh day.”

    According to your mistaken view, the Sabbath would correctly only be celebrated at some completely indefinite time beyond every seven thousand years, because a day with the Lord is like a thousand years. The real explanation for all this is the Bible is not at all consistent, and can say two different things in two different places.

    So here in Exodus, as in Genesis, days are just days. That too demonstrates that 2 Peter was just an attempted bit of flim-flam manipulation to try to explain why the predictions of the Second Coming had failed, why Jesus had not really come “quickly.” And the same flim-flammery has been repeated in every generation since then to explain why Jesus did not come quickly, and in fact did not come at all.

  10. astudent says:

    hokku,
    I apologize for my slow response to your comment. Sometimes life gets in your way and you can’t do what you want to do, when you want to.

    There is usually something positive in anything that happens and you can see and benefit from it if you look for it. This is one of those incidents.

    I told you that you are funny and you just keep proving it!!!
    The problem here is that when you come to parts of the Bible that show it is obviously right, you read them through a mental filter you have over your mind — a filter that tells you the Bible cannot possibly be right, so anything that looks right, no matter how obvious, just is not “understood” in the right way. And of course there are quite a few varying explanations of what is “right” depending on which atheist you ask. (Does that sound vaguely familiar to you?)

    Here is a good example that you are doing exactly what you accuse me of.
    You say “The Bible is just a human, fallible book with lots of discrepancies, such as the one in which Jesus is supposed to spend three days and three nights in the tomb (Matthew 12:40). Try counting how many days and nights from the evening on Friday to Sunday morning and see if Matthew was right.”

    Now try reading the verse without your filter. Does it say Jesus will spend three days and three nights in the tomb, or does it say three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? Does it say Jesus spirit will be out of His body three days, or that he will be dead for three days, or that He will be in a tomb for three days? Both the Greeks and Hebrews had a word for “tomb” (mnemeion & qeber) and if Jesus meant tomb He would have said so. I might add that the verse doesn’t say Jonah was dead or buried three days either.

    In all fairness to you most, if not all, others have made the same mistake: me included! I had not thought about this verse very deeply and probably would not have if you had not brought it to my attention. Thanks very much, I owe you one. I will have to write a post on it as I always tell everything I know. Sometimes I shouldn’t, but I don’t seem to be able to stop.

    The “them” that is spoken of in Matthew are the clothes not the animals. The King James version is a bit clearer.

    What has my mother to do with what God said? I love her, but she is not God, so she would not mean 2000 years. Paul is talking about being made perfect, or without sin. When he says we will not all sleep it should be clear that the “we” are Christians and the sleep is death.

    Now to consider these as errors and discrepancies in the Bible, one has to mentally misunderstand them, as though the Bible could not possibly mean what it says. But the fact is that what it says is simply true, but mistaken, over and over again by those who do not understand. (Familiar?)

    You say, “All it takes to see this is simply to read what the Bible says — not what one wants it to say, or what someone tells you it should mean, but what it actually says.” That is good advice. Maybe you could take it as well as give it. Perhaps then you would not mistake “heart” for “tomb”.

    You said, “So 2 Peter came up with the “thousand days” loophole to explain it.” Did you read my previous comment? Did you think about it?

    Hokku, neither you nor the non-fundamentalist scholars that you are believing (Didn’t you tell me to read the Bible for myself, but then you listen to others?) were there when 2 Peter was written so neither you, or the non-fundamentalist can say anything about who wrote it as a positive truth.

    The Sabbath is for man and therefore is in man’s time frame. No the seven days in the first part of Genesis are not man’s days, but God’s days. I have already explained this in a previous post (Was every thing made in six days?). It’s too long to repeat here.

    It is not whether or not there is a God or if the Bible is the Word of God. You don’t really care. It is a contest for you to demonstrate your superiority. You may well be superior to me, but you can’t show it by not even considering what I say.

    You accuse all Christians of being closed minded and unwilling to consider your view, but just the opposite is true. You listen to any view that opposes Christianity and repeat it as if it were true and then you accuse me of doing the same about my point of view. You certainly can not call me closed minded, because I was once an atheist and sounded just like you.

    You have a spiritual shotgun which you load with shells full of spiritual pellets and fire it at any Christian you can find. You are not using a rifle that only has one projectile at a time, where you, or I might learn, but a shell with all kinds of questions, all at once; to confuse and not clarify. You have about the same concern for the Christian as a hunter has for the bird he shoots. Then you refuse to think about anything that a Christian might say in return: which is a spiritual kind of body armor. If I fire back, your body armor deflects any truth that you might hear and then understand. It is you that have donned the armor and you that are responsible for not understanding.

    The funny part of the shooting match is though your pellets strike me (I refuse armor) they cause me to think and rethink about spiritual truth and my wounds are healed and I become stronger as a result. Your attempts to dissuade me only strengthen my faith. (Luke, the force is with me) It is good for me and a complete waste of time for you. So I must thank you for the effort, no matter your motives.

    The secret to understanding is “Doubt”. Doubt everything if you want to really understand. You have no problem doubting anything that I say and that is good, but you do not doubt your own views or the views of other atheist. You can not understand truth if you do not search with truth and if you do not doubt yourself you leave out half of the possibilities for finding it.

    I know you are saying to yourself that I have falsely accused you and you are thinking how you will answer and make me look like the fool that you think I am, but first consider that all men think that they are right. If they didn’t think they were right they would change what they believed. Don’t let pride stop you from really considering that you might be wrong.

    If I have angered you I apologize. I try to be truthful with my comments and if I must consider your feelings at the cost of truth then I have not answered in truth. I hope (and pray) that you will understand.

    You may not like me or what I say, but how could I not like you when you give me such good questions to consider? I really am grateful and am indebted to you.

  11. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “Does it say Jesus will spend three days and three nights in the tomb, or does it say three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? Does it say Jesus spirit will be out of His body three days, or that he will be dead for three days, or that He will be in a tomb for three days? Both the Greeks and Hebrews had a word for “tomb” (mnemeion & qeber) and if Jesus meant tomb He would have said so. I might add that the verse doesn’t say Jonah was dead or buried three days either.”

    In all your words you failed to explain how Jesus spent three days and three nights “in the heart of the earth” when he was supposedly buried on Friday evening and supposedly was out of the tomb by early Sunday morning. You have not done the math. Whether tomb or earth, there is simply not enough time allowed.

  12. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “The “them” that is spoken of in Matthew are the clothes not the animals. The King James version is a bit clearer.”

    You are mistaken. The Greek says “They brought the donkey and the colt and put upon them (ep auton) their garments, and he sat on them (epano auton). Obviously the “auton” is referring to the donkey and colt.

    Note that in the same event in Mark, there is only ONE animal — a colt. Matthew makes his mistake because of a misunderstanding of Hebrew parallelism: He quotes

    “Behold your king comes to you humble,
    And mounted on a donkey
    And upon a colt the foal of a donkey.”

    Matthew thought this meant TWO animals, but it just repeats the same concept in the second line. It meant ONE animal, which is why Mark has only one, while Matthew has TWO.

    As for the days of Genesis, there were just ordinary days, with evening and morning, and that is why the sabbath came on the seventh day (not age), because it was on the seventh ordinary day that God rested according to Genesis.

  13. astudent says:

    hokku,

    I trust that my latest post answers your doubts. I must reiterate, Jesus did not say he would be in a grave or tomb for three days and three nights. “In the heart of the earth” means dead to God for that amount of time and I did the math for that in the post.

    Because you will not even recognize that there is a God I doubt if you will be able to see and understand this, because understanding spiritual things requires a spiritual teacher. I am not such a teacher. There are times when I wish I was, but a teacher should know the subject much better than I do.

    I think that you believe in fairness so let me ask you a simple question. If there is a God, that made you and everything that you enjoy, why would He teach you anything if you, though you enjoy life and the things that He has made, will not even acknowledge Him?

    I have to think more about the donkey. I don’t know Greek.

  14. astudent says:

    hokku,
    Again I must thank you for your observations. Just so we both and anyone reading can see that I believe the Bible to be absolutely true and you believe it to be absolutely false.
    It can be said that I look for truth and you look for untruth. Isn’t it funny how truth stated doesn’t always sound so good?

    One of the problems that separate us is that you either create a theory, or repeat someone else’s theory and state it as fact. Because you look for error you read Matthew 21:7 and say it is false and you state it as fact.

    The other Gospels do not mention the donkey, only the colt. That does not disqualify Matthews account at all, as the accounts are different views from different people. What seemed important to Matthew did not seem important to others.

    We do not ride animals any more so what was obvious to the disciples is not to us. The colt was young, so young that it had not been ridden. The disciples were sent ahead to get the colt and then told to bring it to Jesus, which means they had to bring it back to him. Even though you do not ride animals, consider how far a young colt, so young that it was yet to be ridden, could carry a full grown man.

    It is plausible to me that the disciples brought both to Jesus, put their clothes on the donkey, which Jesus rode part of the way and then transferred both clothing and Jesus to the colt so that Scripture could be fulfilled: not just plausible, but logical. What would have been apparent to those who lived in the time of Jesus would not have seemed important enough to be explained, which would account for the seemingly different version of the same story.

    I know that you are saying that I am grasping for straws, but before you state I am wrong as a fact be honest enough to admit that it sounds logical. I will concede that I am not sure beyond a doubt my way of looking at the story is true. All I ask from you is to acknowledge that it is a possibility.

    But if you do admit it could have happened that way you will be admitting that you “could” be wrong. That will take honesty.

    As for the different view of the days in Genesis, God has yet to enter His rest though the Bible seems to say He has. Because God knows the future He sometimes states that something has been finished, because to Him it has. Consider John 5:17 where on the Sabbath day, Jesus says God is always at His work to this very day. If God had rested then Jesus could not make that statement. I also might add that God would not violate His own decrees and if the days in Genesis were the standard for Him then He would be guilty of working on the Sabbath.

  15. Tessa Matthews says:

    I would just like to know why for many many years Ive bellieved,prayed,fasted, and studyed the Bible intently, Ive given till its past the stage of hearting any more Ive done almost everything one should do to please God and the emotional pain Ive gorn through my life never ends the hurt never stops. I never get anything I realy need or whant. Not even a partner to share my life with. I kind of just live in the now expecting nothing out of life. Was I realy cursed from birth and God cant help? It doesnt realy matter anymore life must just go on I sirpose.

  16. astudent says:

    Tessa Matthews,

    Well, I seldom get what I ask for either. Over the years I have realized that most of the time, what I ask for would not be the best thing for me. Actually God’s word says in Rom 8:28 “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” If you truly do believe God, then when things seem to be going against you remember Romans 8:28: they are not.

    I was married before I was a Christian and I can tell you marriage is not always what you imagine it to be. It is a good example of what I should not have done, but God did not stop me.

    There is very little one can do to please God. There is very little that is necessary! Only admitting that I am a sinner and not worthy of living with God and asking Him to save me is all that is necessary. However, after doing that, it became obvious that He wanted me to treat others, as I wanted them to treat me.

    Let me explain the principals that I live by. It is important because I am extremely happy and they could help you as well.

    First, do not think about what you do not have. It only serves to depress you. Make a list of what you do have. I cannot make your list other than you can start with life. After you make your list look around and observe those who do not have what you do. How many people do you know that put their trust in someone to the point they married that person, only to be greatly disappointed and possibly materially bankrupt by that person? Some have even committed suicide because of that error. One could say that God saved you from that fate. Actually, looking at others first will help you make a list of what God has done for you.

    I seem to be very unsympathetic, because I do not like sympathy. It only makes the mood worse and it is only a mood. One becomes depressed when they think about themselves instead of others.

    Luke 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

    If you want others to love you then love them. If you want to be happy then show the world that you are happy. Yes, you can be happy and yes, it is easy. Putting on a little music: “Don’t Worry be Happy” would be a good start. Then there is the song “Tomorrow”, but today look for someone that needs a little help. Do not help them looking for a return. Just help them.

    It is better to give than to receive. God has given us everything that we might enjoy Him and a side benefit is we get to enjoy what He does for us. Do not try to please God, so that He will give you something else. Enjoying what He already has given you will please Him. It is said that we can not give God anything, because He already owns everything, but thanks and praise is ours to give and when we become too wrapped up in ourselves we forget Him and do not give the only thing that we can.

    “O”, you missed it! You do have a partner to share your life with. John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Every baptized believer has God, Himself, to share their life with! I am a man and I know men. Believe me, you are infinitely better off with God.

  17. Well, Im a little late in the game… but the verses pertain to asking for forgiveness… not whatever you ask for you will get. from context it is saying… if the church forgives it is forgiven in heaven…. if the church can’t forgive because there hasn’t been repentance then of course heaven doesn’t forgive either. They are asking for forgiveness or punishment for a person… based on the facts of the case… and if two or more agree in what they are asking for – forgiveness or punishment… the prayer is answered. and is always answered.

    On another note… for those of you who do not believe any of this any way… you sure do waste a lot of time trying to prove your point… just go and live what you believe and Good luck to you….

  18. astudent says:

    Phillip Brande,

    There is no such thing as ‘late in the game’ here. Anyone and everyone are welcome to comment on any post and any comment.

    You and scripturezealot are right in that the verse should be taken in context.

    It seems to me that the underlying, or main point in Matthew 18:15-20 is that there must be at least two witnesses for right and wrong to be established. I think that the church is cited to indicate that even Christians are to be held to that standard.

    That does not negate your understanding. It just seems to me there is more to it than the way to kick someone out of the Church. That is the way some people view the verses, but the truth is that we can only treat them as pagans. It is God that accepts or rejects those who are members of His church. It is our responsibility to shun sinners, so that they will understand and turn from their sins.

    Tow or more witnesses of a wrong on this earth is symbolic of judgment. There will always be two or more witnesses of any sin ever committed. God is the first witness and the sinner the second. Both know exactly what happened and not only that, but even the intension or reason the sin was committed.

    Trading comments with nonbelievers like hokku is good for me and maybe good for him in the end. He was trying to debunk Scripture and it forced him to read it in order to accomplish his goals. It forced me to consider other ways to answer a nonbeliever, so both of us benefited. I know and understand the truth and that is Scripture cannot be debunked, so I had/have the advantage. It can be boring to the casual observer, so I do understand your comment about unbelievers.

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