HERE IS THE NUMBER OF MAN

I have understood the number of man for quite some time, but I thought I should keep it to myself. Perhaps I still should, but there are a few things that have changed my mind.

 

First let me explain why I have kept it to myself. I have leaned much, so much that I began to doubt if it was really God that was teaching me. I began to think it might just be me and that I might not really have any true wisdom. (I heard that)

 

Thomas doubted, but my doubts make Thomas look like a real believer sometimes (That is not to say he isn’t) Anyway there is a verse in the Bible that says, “If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.”

 

It dawned on me, or perhaps God whispered in my mind that if I understood the number of man that I actually had insight. Then I believe that God gave me the clue that lead to understanding the number of man.

 

I kept it to myself because if I told others and they also doubted if they had true insight they would not have a test from God that would prove that they had true insight to themselves.

 

Then I thought about iron sharpening iron and I know that it is really not possible for me to teach others, so my fears are unfounded. I also have read and heard many other interpretations of the number of man and it might help to consider this view also.

 

Now second let me say this, ‘If you understand the number of man it will not really reveal anything else about God’s word. You will not be able to see any mark that would allow you to differentiate between those who are saved and those who are not.

 

Well, enough of this dribble. Here is the explanation of the number of man as I understand it, along with the clue that lead to this understanding. The clue is, “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty” and here is the understanding.

 

The number of man is “six”: not six hundred and sixty six. It is said three times in order to emphasize it, just as holy is said three times when it is used to refer to God. The number of man is 6-6-6 meaning it was, is, and will always be 6.

 

You must understand other numbers to realize that the number of man is “six”. Well, really only the symbolic meanings of two other numbers.

 

The number of God is “one” (Mark 12:29), and the number of completion is seven. I do not have a verse that says seven is the number of completion, but a study of the number seven will affirm the concept. All of God’s work will be completed on His seventh day. It should be oblivious that God still works, so though we may be in the beginning of His seventh day, He still saves the lost, forms those in the womb, and makes the rain fall, so His work is not yet complete.

 

If a man, who is a six, receives God and becomes one with him, that man becomes complete, or becomes a seven: a new number! That person is no longer a six!

 

It is said in Rev 13:16-18 (NIV)  “He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.” So if one can calculate the number of the beast they have at least some wisdom and insight.

 

We think as men think with our brain, or forehead and we do as men do, with our hands. God sees the number of man on those who are not complete, but we can not see either number. God knows the thoughts of a man and why he does what he does, so God is the only one, other than the man himself that can see, or know his number.

 

The number of any man who has not received God is the same number as the beast and he will receive the same fate. If the number of man is the same number as the beast then isn’t man the beast?

 

I am not saying that there is a lack of creditability to the idea that we may have to receive a chip that will allow only those who have it to buy or sell. If that is true, the condition, or requirement that will have to be met in order to get the chip will be that the God of Abraham will have to be denied, or rejected.

 

Anyway the number of man, as I understand it, is only a riddle that when you have the answer does not add any greater understanding than what you already possessed.

436 Responses to HERE IS THE NUMBER OF MAN

  1. Pip says:

    How can you take literal English from the bible and form your opinion, the original bible was written in Hebrew and was not 666 but is written as…. ‘And his number is six hundred three score and six’

    Note that according to verse 17, there are three different characteristics that distinguish the beast:

    * his mark (of authority)
    * his name
    * the number of his name (666).

    It might be argued by some that 666 must be applied to one man’s name, and that this will then help identify him as the antichrist. I would offer the following verse to show that 666 need not apply solely to a man’s name:

    Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

  2. astudent says:

    Pip,
    First I didn’t take literal English from the Bible and form an opinion from it. Six is a number and the number system or mathematical system is universal. The symbol for a number should be shown in a language as the symbol that is used for that number, in that language. Our symbol for six is 6 and the number in Revelation 13:18 should really be shown as 666 and not written out. It should be up to the reader to determine if the writer meant six, six, six, or if he meant six hundred and sixty six. If it is written out then the interpreter did not just interpret the content, but also the meaning.

    If either of us is taking literal English from the bible and forming an opinion from it is you and not I. To illustrate the point, using the American language we would not say six hundred three score and six. If we were going to write the number six hundred and sixty six that is how we would write and say it, but because the number was written out you quoted it as three score and six. I believe it would be clearer to use the symbol for six which is the way the NIV, NKJV, ESV, GNV, and GW show it.

    The number of man is a riddle and the purpose of a riddle is to hide the meaning. If the riddle is viewed in a usual or accepted way the meaning stays hidden. Any riddle must be viewed in an unconventional way in order to be solved. In this case viewing the number as six, six, six is just as accurate as seeing it as six hundred and sixty six and for me it lead to the answer to the riddle.

    To quote from Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, “There can be no doubt that the number 666 is the correct reading, though it would seem that this was sometimes expressed in letters, and sometimes written in full. Wetstein supposes that both methods were used by John; that in the first copy of his book he used the letters, and in a subsequent copy wrote it in full.”

    As for your reference to verse 17 the characteristics are the same, not different. It is said, “the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name” and it is said the number of man and the number of the beast are the same number (If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number) and the mark is the number, so they are the same.

    Your last point is cause for much thought. First you speak of the number of the beast and then about Jesus, who is the King of kings and the Lord of lords and you seem to say the rider is the beast! The rider is never called a man, only a rider and is identified as Faithful and True, the Word of God, the one who armies of heaven follow, out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and on his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. There can be no doubt that the rider is Jesus and not a six, 666 or a beast.

    I must be misunderstanding what you are attempting to say. Perhaps you could attempt to explain it so I can understand. Though I must warn you, it will have to be said simply in order for me to grasp it.

  3. Pip says:

    This might help clear up what I meant: http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm

  4. astudent says:

    Pip,
    I like that name “Pip”. Thanks for the attempt to clarify your position.
    As I said or attempted to say, there is no need, or is it correct to write out 666 when translating it.

    Even in the web page that you brought to my attention the number is said as 666 and only written out when it refers to the translation.

    The web page that you cited reminds me of the recent book “The Bible Code”. Both can be made to say most anything.

    I don’t believe that it can be said the Pope is trying to be a substitute for Christ. Nor do I believe he could be considered the antichrist. He acknowledges Christ.

    I am not a Catholic and I wouldn’t be one, because I believe there is only one God and only one Son of God and all glory should be given them. The Catholic Church gives glory to Mary and the Pope and also to men called Saints. Individual Catholics will some times even give glory to spots on a wall and other ridiculous symbols and signs.

    The Bible warns us not to call any man Father and that is what you are expected to call every priest and then the Pope is called “Holy Father”. This is a basic mistake and I for one would not want to stand in the shoes of one who took some of the glory of God in the end times. Nor do I want to be a party to a system that does so. I am not condemning anyone, but it would be a sin for me to be a Catholic when I believe as I do.

    Even Moses and Aaron were punished for taking some glory that was really God’s.

    (Num 20:12 NIV) But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

    Moses said, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” he should have said “The Lord will bring you water out of this rock”. If Moses was punished for what seems like a small infraction, how much more will one be punished for calling a man, and or, a man being called Holy Father?

    Hummm, it seems as though we went from the number of man, to the antichrist, to the Pope, to the Catholic Church, but then that is the way of enlightenment. It really is only God that can enlighten anyone and He told us so, (Prov 27:17 NIV) As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. I didn’t really believe I could explain the number of man so that anyone would understand as I do. It is God’s glory to do that.

  5. volvobilbe says:

    I was excited and quite happy to read what you wrote, since it is what I think as well.
    Although your deduction that the 1 added to the 3 sixes, marked a man as God’s I had not thought of, and perceive is a genuine insight, and completes my own concept.

    I’ve weighed it as well. God is 1,yet 3. Father, Son, Holy Ghost: God.
    He made all creation within 6 days, then rested on the 7th. Thus, 6 is the number of created things (especially man, who was created on the 6th day) while 7 is the number of completion, or perfection.
    Since God is 3 in one, 666 seems to me to indicate man trying to be 1)the Father 2) the Son 3) the Holy Ghost, but always falling short, because only God is God.
    As I say, since God is also 1, and adding 1 to the 6′s makes man whole. This, to me, completes the picture, and I appreciate the insight you’ve shared.
    I too have my grievous doubts and don’t mean to sound like I think I can pronounce you to be wise. I’m just another follower. But I say it to strengthen you, and I believe it to be genuine inspiration.

    Another thing you said makes me think of other of my ponderings.
    The mark of the beast is received in the forehead or the hand: I’ve supposed that may mean that by what we think and what we do we reveal whom it is that we serve.
    However, there are many people who believe the Beast is a particular man, and the marks are physical ones. That could well be, quite likely is, in fact, yet without dimiinishing our allegorical interpretation. The KJV reads 666 as “the number of a man”, yet I’ve suspected, as you have, that it is not so much the number of A man as the number OF man.

    Men are always trying to make heaven on earth, without acknowledging our need for God and the laws of God that would truly make it so.
    For if God’s law is written in our hearts, manmade legislation is a moot point. Loving God, we would not lie or steal or murder & we have no need for manmade laws or law enforcement.
    Instead we legislate away a better world in favor of our own ingratitude. It’s this that is the beast: the notion that we can have abundance and creativity and joy without God.
    Sorry, didn’t mean to get preachy – it just annoys and grieves me even though I’m as guilty as the next person often as not.

  6. astudent says:

    volvobilbe,

    I believe this is a first for me! This is the first time someone has agreed with me and I agreed with them in return. I am sure we can disagree on other parts of understanding, but on this we seem to agree 100%!!!

    We even seem to agree on the law. The Ten Commandments, as I see it, are only to condemn man. All we need is the 2nd Royal Law, which is “Love your neighbor as yourself” to interact with all mankind. The Ten Commandments are only a small part of the Royal Law. There is no need to further define the law and to do so only confuses everyone. We have more than one legislative body that continually makes and defines laws and when those laws are defined, then they can be circumnavigated.

    The 2nd Royal Law is so simple and clear I do not think it can be circumnavigated, but then what do I know?

    I to am often as guilty as the next person. That is why we need a Savior!!!! And we have one!!!!! I think God allows us to continue to sin so we will not forget that we needed a Savior. He is showing us we still do.

    Thanks for your comments and input. I really enjoyed hearing from another student.

  7. 999 says:

    Seeker,

    I found your blog while searching for the exact scripture for the number of man. Thank you.

    I appreciate your seeking of truth.

    This audio file, recorded June 9th, 2008, might shed some light on the number 666 for you… or not. Either way, I believe it will help you in your search.

    http://LivePrivately.com/20080609c.mp3

    I am in the process of transcribing the audio and will be making a slide show video with subtitles and audio for publishing via YouTube.

    I also have more audio that I can share with you if you are still interested after listening to this first one.

    In hope of Peace & Synergy

  8. astudent says:

    999,

    God is indeed the creator and owns the Manufactures Statement of Origin. I would agree that man is responsible for managing God’s creation, but not to just use it for one’s on pleasure. It seems to me that, like Satan, you want to control everything for your own pleasure.

    First you say creation is commerce and God created it, and then you say commerce is creation. You also say first that God created commerce and then you say Satan did. You can not say that commerce is creation and then say Satan did not create anything and then say he created commerce. You just can not have it both ways,

    Where did your forth rule come from? If you didn’t create anything and do not have title to it how could you register it and what do you base the basic rule on?

    One of the ways Satan controls a man is through greed. Such as when someone wants a motorcycle that God has placed in another’s control to manage and then puts it into their mind that they can steal it by some grand scheme.

    I find it interesting that you are a motorcycle enthusiast. I spent about 50 years in the business as a mechanic and then dealer. Speaking from the other side of your scheme about using a motorcycle that doesn’t belong to you I would have to say that it is dishonest and a better example of the ways of Satan than that of God.

    It is dishonest to sign a contract that you have no intention of honoring, dishonest to change the balance on an invoice to zero when it is not, and dishonest to keep and use the goods that belong to someone else. One doesn’t need even one signature to know that. If you have any trouble understanding this then picture explaining your three signature ideas before you pick up the motorcycle and give the others a chance to respond before they lose anything. I don’t even have to say it, but I will, you are going to walk home.

    God says, (1 Th 4:11&12 NIV) Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

    You are not winning the respect of anyone by your actions. You are a very confused man with a fatal error: you think you are very clear in your understanding. I would not want to be in your shoes when you stand before God and attempt to explain your schemes to Him.

    If you think my answer to your comment is harsh you must understand that I am commanded to be so. (Lev 19:17 NIV) “‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.

    How you handle my rebuke will say much about you. (Prov 9:8 NIV) Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

    Whether you hate me or love me I will pray that you think about what you are doing and come to your senses; stopping this madness.

  9. BenjaminBP says:

    Hi my name is benjamin. I recently was trying to figgure out the first part of rev. 13:18 where it says “he that has understanding”. From reading other parts of the bible I have realized that if you believe that you have wisdom you are a fool but he that seeks wisdom is wise. To me that is someone who can say to themselves that they don’t know the answer. So, redundantly, I see that to understand the number of his name you have to accept that you don’t know it. When I don’t know something I ask questions to know more about things. So that was my answer.

    I started browsing the web trying to learn more about this number. Finding that there is an ancient piece of papyrus that has the numbers as 616. That really got my mind thinking. At the same time I found that the number might actually be 616 I also found out that the original copy’s of revelation were noted to have “grammatical” errors. So I thought, what if the person who was trying to copy down the number on this ancient papyrus had understood what John was trying to say and tried to more accurately state (though he did a poor job also) stating that the number of his name is 616. MEANING 6, one 6. As though he understood that the number was singular in nature and was trying to convey that to others that he had realized the number was not 666 at all but only one 6.

    I have been thinking on this for a short time and I have just been trying to bring my head around the concept that to understand the number of him I must realize that I don’t understand it at all to bring me to ask the single most important question: What significance would a man give to a number?

    Maybe your thought completes mine in stating that it is not a number at all because so many things are represented as symbols in his vision. What if the number of his name, the mark of the beast is the final acknowledgement that “WE” as man have no need for god. Could that actually be the mark, our mark as humans. That we would proudly state that we do not need a god to function. That as man we are here and independant of his will. We do as we will. No need for his commandments. No need to keep that which he said is holy that will never pass away.

    We are not under the law of moses anymore but under grace. That being said we are still under G-D’s law, his commandments because even jesus kept the commandments (I wish I was more versed in biblical knowledge). I recall somewhere in the new testiment that if we keep all but one of the commandments we are guilty of all. It also states that if we state that we know our savior but do not keep the commandments we are liars and do not know him.

    So maybe that is the key. The key is that the number of his name, his mark, is that we do not need G-D. Yes, I concede the point that we are under grace but even under grace we should not sin so that grace can abound. We should hold true to his commandments, keeping his sabbath, keeping the others.

    I really hope that what I said made sense. I have always had a hard time conveying my thoughts across to others so they can understand them. I wouldn’t say that I have mental disability’s, unless you call being stupid enough to break the commandments is a mental impairment (lol), but I do realize that in a lot of ways I do have a hard time conveying thoughts to others. So I do apologize to anyone who needs to read what i wrote a few times to understand what I stated.

  10. astudent says:

    Benjamin,

    When you say that “if you believe that you have wisdom you are a fool”, could it be that you are referring to Proverbs 26:12 (NIV) Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
    True wisdom is being wise in God’s eyes which is different than being wise in your own eyes. We should strive to understand and make what is right in our eyes the same as what is right in God’s eyes. (Prov 3:5 NIV) Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
    This is just some of what God says about wisdom, (Prov 3:13-18 NIV) Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, for she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. She is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who embrace her; those who lay hold of her will be blessed.
    (Prov 4:7 NIV) Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
    It is good to ask questions, but the best answers come from reflecting on the Word of God. The Spirit that you received when you were buried with Christ is the perfect Teacher: listen to Him.
    There is no end of ancient pieces of papyrus and claims of errors in the Bible, but at some point one realizes that the Bible is the Word of God and God would not allow any real Words of wisdom to be lost in pieces of papyrus, neither would a perfect God allow errors in what He wants us to know. Stick with the Bible and it alone. If you think you have found an error in the Word of God then you do not understand part of it yet, for if there is an error then it is not the Word of a perfect God.
    I agree with you that a man that carries the mark of 6 does not believe he needs God and as I tried to say the man who asks God into his life becomes a new number, that of completion a 7.
    You ask “What significance would a man give to a number” and my answer would probably be the same as yours: none. Men that do not think they need God do not understand that God uses the number as an allegory, neither do they care. Actually I view the number 666 as of little importance, because if you understand it you do not know any more about the plan of God than you did before He granted understanding. Ever since I reached this understanding I viewed it as proof to me that I had, at least some insight.
    I believe that we as Christians are held to a higher standard than the Ten Commandments. We must try to obey the two Golden rules. That is to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ If we obey these two commandments we would do no harm to others. I did say “try”.
    There is no need to apologize for not being able to convey thoughts to others. It is part of the plan of God as He confused the language at the Tower of Babel, and I don’t see where He has allowed it to be made clear again. I don’t find your thoughts any harder to understand than anyone else’s. Well, that is if I do understand them. Of course the same thing can be said of my thoughts.

  11. wayne says:

    i am of the belief that the number of man, the mark of , and the beast, are directly related to the computer system of the world in these end times. i won’t try to rationalize why, except to say after praying for revelation on this mystery, i believe in what the Lord has shown my spirit. i pray that his wisdom and revelation in this matter comes to those of us who seek his wisdom with in our life times. amen.

  12. astudent says:

    wayne,

    I agree with you that the number of man is related to the computer system of the world. Actually the “Computer System of the World” is yet to be created, but when it is completed it will be used to separate Christians from non Christians; though that will not be made clear to anyone at that time.

    I must admit that is only a theory on my part, as the Bible does not say anything about computers. Having said that I realized that God might have and I have yet to understand it.

    Anyway, to explain my theory, one can see that a computer is used to keep records and if everything is recorded then what a Christian does will be reveled to the world. That will allow those who hate Christians to identify them and once identified we can be eliminated.

    There are Muslims in this world that hate Jews and Christians and if they ever gain control of the world then that is exactly what they will do. It seems as though they do not believe their god is powerful enough to kill his enemies, so they must do it for him. I believe they will gain control and I do think they will use computers to find us, so I do agree and it is unusual indeed when I agree with anyone.

    I also agree that the Lord has shown this to your spirit. I don’t believe anyone can understand anything that is spiritual in nature unless the Lord reveals it. I don’t think God lets us calculate anything by ourselves. Therefore understanding of spiritual things does not come from the intelligence of a man. We are told to search for meaning and anyone can, and will find it if they only search. I am the best example that I can think of that intelligence is not a requirement. (I heard that)

  13. Dadisi says:

    I love this! Your manner of presentation it is real and much appreciated. Unlike religion it is which is fuzzy science you have proven the brought insight to the word of God. I look forward to more of what have been given. A intense dialogue could be beneficial to us both. I like the way you think.

  14. Dadisi says:

    What have been missing from this conversation are other translations and transliterations of words which effect the interpretation of The Word of God. In the Latin language, the word six is translated sex. Sex is the number of man. The word man is a form of the word men which means to think. As a man thinks so is he. Sex is the limitation of to think. Man is driven by his physical instinct to preserve, protect and pleasure himself. He operates under a curse which has relegated him to the level of a beast. In the Book of Genesis, God asks the question of Adam,” Where are you”? This is a miss translation. The word where is actually the word wer. Wer is of the Indo-European language meaning a lower form of man, beast like or animalistic. After partaking of the forbidden, thinking became corrupted. Man put on camouflage referred to as aprons of leaves and hid among nature. Adam had become warlike having the intention of killing God. This warlike being also known as a warlock is defined as an oath breaker because he broke the covenant between himself and God. Instead of a question, God made a statement. He said to Adam, “Wer are you”. I translate it as saying, “You have become an animal in your thinking and a beast in your behavior”. Self serving, egotistical arrogant and prideful is the number of man. He is bound by the love of himself which in turn separates him from God. Man has become his own god.

  15. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    Well, I agree with much of what you have said: especially with “As a man thinks so is he”.

    Language is a very weak subject to me. I do not know Latin at all. It would be very difficult to me to translate Hebrew into Latin then into English which is what you are doing. Well, it would be impossible for me, but I see problems even for anyone who is fluent in all three languages. All languages have many words with more than one definition, so it is difficult to understand what is written, because you may not apply the same definition to one of the words that the writer meant and one word can change the meaning of a sentence.

    I don’t believe that we can discover any truth on our own. I believe that if we understand anything about the Bible it is a gift from God and we have understanding only because we search for it. It seems to me that God has used Latin to show you truth and I agree with your statements, however I would probably say them a different way, because God used different ways to give me the same understanding.

    I would say that Adam became like a beast, because an animal only considers its self. To be like God one would put everyone else’s welfare ahead of their own. I don’t think Adam wanted to kill God, though Satan would if he could, Adam was more worried about being killed. I’ll bet Adam did feel like a lower form of man when God called him, because he had the knowledge of good and evil and because of that he knew he actually was lower than God.

    Though man does try to be his own god and his pride does separate him (Us) from God, man is still made in the imagine of God, so there is hope for us.

  16. Dadisi says:

    It is my belief the the Spirit of God leads his people into truth. Much of what I have learn of God has been in life with the bible as a confirmation. Interpretation of the bible is based on the spirit of it’s reader. Just studying the bible is not enough! It is a supernatural text about supernatual beings that only can be discerned supernaturally.

    Because man has been lowered to the level of a beast, the supernatural as it relates to God is not privy to him. God does not give favor which is his Spirit to a beast; he gives favor to those that favor him. As we manifests his image in the process of moving closer to God, it is reflected in the circumstances of our lives. Wait on the Lord! This is not wait as in standing around for something to happen but it is weight as in not trusting in you own understanding. We have to trust him in order to receive what he has.

    Faith is the currency of heaven; Without faith, it is impossible to please God.
    I trust the leadership of the Spirit of God because of the relationship that has been cultivated over time. Like any relationship, it grows based on the investment and commitment. The world is full of gods but there is only one God. Where’s Waldo! How do you choose? You choose based on relationship. Jesus said, “My sheep know my voice and will not follow another”! To know means to be intimate with like a mother knows the cry of her baby within a crowd.

    The Spirit of God which gives discernment divides between bone and marrow. To know God is to have his Spirit. He can only be worshiped in Spirit and in truth! God honors himself above all others. He is the standard and not man. I used to think of myself has smart but I was later shown how foolish that was. It is a hard lesson but God is gracious.

  17. Winna says:

    I think that what you posted makes a lot of sense. And I applaud you for doing so. Keep spreading the Good News. No matter how much people disagree with you, keep going. God bless you!

  18. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I see why you like what I say. We are an echo of each other. At the risk of flattery (Small risk, because you have read Job 32:21&22) I have never read so many words that I can find nothing wrong with! I can’t even add to them!

    Well, maybe a little. I too have been shown that I am not as smart as I thought I was: and am still shown every now and then (Slow learner, I am). I have discovered that intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing. Wisdom is the result of reflection on the truth and a direct result of what God lets us, or shows us, because we search His Word. Intelligence is only the ability to calculate an answer to a problem, but wisdom is a gift from God and not calculative. I think that explains why the very intelligent of this world can not understand God’s Word.

    It would give me great pleasure if you will keep your eye on me and criticize what I say. I am only a student (As we all are) and I need to be criticized so that I can view God’s word from others point of view. (1 Cor 8:2 NIV) The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.

  19. astudent says:

    Winna,

    Thanks for the encouraging words. I will sure take your advice. Actually I like it when others disagree with me. There is nothing to learn from agreement and I want to learn everything that I can about our Father.

  20. Dadisi says:

    The Bible is a message of love written in the language of relationship. One of the most important of all treasures of life is the understanding of value. Relationship is how value is measured. The highest standard by which to measure is God. What or whoever your god is sets your standard and represents the mindset which is the governor of your life.

  21. Dadisi says:

    Sexy, sexy, sexy is the number of the beast. Sex is the Latin word used for the number six. Sex is the limitation of the natural man and it has the power to stop the thought process thus reducing man to a beast. Similar to a light going out, the darkness immediately takes over. I often study how commercials are composed and find that sex is used to sell just about anything from fishing lures to deodorant.

    Sex sells! It taps into our basic need for relationship as we want to establish one quick, fast and in a hurry. Sex is the illusion of a true relationship; it is a false standard by which to measure meant to deceive. Whatever we buy is generally advertised as making us better in some way. We will be cleaner, smarter, healthier etc.

    The serpent in the Garden of Eden used the same approach as he conversed with the woman. He said, “God knows that when you eat of it (the forbidden) your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good from evil.” The beast nature is based on self serving mindset as the standard that measures value.

  22. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I agree with your statements. The problem is we do not understand God well enough to acquire the same mind set as He has. This may seem odd to say, but God is the perfect servant. Now, before everyone has a heart attack, let me explain.

    God did not need a universe, or anything in it and that includes any human being, but He made a universe and everything in it for us. He made us imperfect so that He can mercy on everyone (Rom 11:32 NIV). When we feel that we are in great danger we always think about God (Those who profess to not believe in God will usually say something like “O my God). Anyway God still forms us in the womb and lets us breath His air, drink His water, eat His food and live on His property; in His house.

    The only thing more important than being a servant is to love everyone. So if we had the mindset of God we would also be trying to be perfect servants that love others. That is Jesus and he came as an example as well as savior.

    I will have to think about your latest comment.

  23. Dadisi says:

    It is impossible for me to truly love anyone in and of myself. I’m speaking of agape (love) which is modeled of God and not Eros (love) which is modeled by the world. To try to agape someone without the Spirit of God is a work of futility. With Jesus as the Lord or Governor of our lives, we don’t have to try but we are to put his ways and thoughts above our own. Our trust is to be in him and not ourselves.

    The challenge is how we judge! If God is the measure, then we can’t help but have compassion for others because the standard is so high that no human can achieve it. We are all works in progress with no one a better person than another. Because we are at different levels of understanding, it is incumbent on those who know to teach those who do not know. Let the servant be the greatest position because he has been given the gift of understanding and is responsible to use it for the enhancement of others as God leads.

    Humility is the destruction of pride. Pride stands as the greatest power that separates God and man. God hates it. Hate is to be understood as being opposed to or an opposite. The love of God, his agape is the opposite of Eros, the love of self. In The Book of Genesis, enmity was placed between the Seed and the Woman and the Seed of the Serpent. They are perfect opposites. One is a Christ and the other an antichrist, one of God and the other of a beast, one is humble and the other full of pride.

  24. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I agree with much of what you said. I do think that when we act like an animal that we are behaving as Satan does. That is only doing what you want with no consideration for the welfare of others. That is the exact opposite of what God does and it includes more than just sex.

    I still have a problem with having to know Latin in order to understand the number of man. That would eliminate the possibility of anyone who did not, or do not know one particular language of understanding it. Because that language is a translation of the original Greek it would mean that only those who know Latin would be able to understand the number of man.

    The NIV says “If anyone has insight” and that would eliminate someone that only understands English. The KJV says “Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast” and that could go either way. However all translations refer to a number; not a physical attribute.

    I certainly agree that sex that turns into lust makes a man act like a beast, however not all men and very few women are controlled by sex.

    I view sex as symbolic, but that is two long a subject to write as a comment and way to difficult to say delicately without a lot of thought.

    The Bible says, “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13 NIV) and there have been individuals that have given their life for others that were not Christian, so I do not quite agree with your statement that it is impossible for someone to love someone else in and of themselves. If there is no greater love than this then it would include agape love.

    I think that I would class pride as the second worse sin. Worshiping some other god I believe is the absolute worse. The thing about pride is it is a lie. The man that says look what I have done is leaving out what God gave him to accomplish what ever he is proud of. If God had not given the abilities and opportunities nothing could have been done. It would be true that a proud man is trying to be his own god. He is claiming that he did everything and deserves the credit, which is a lie.

    I think we are saying the same things just in our own ways.

  25. Dadisi says:

    It is not a matter as translating words into the Latin language that is at issue but a relationship with the Spirit of God who leads into all truth. What language did the disciples speak when the Spirit had come upon them in the upper room? They spoke many languages! If we could know the true word of God through intellectual exercise, the bible would have been laid waste long ago. The truth frees so why aren’t more people free? Receiving new truth means the death of old truth. In order to grow in your relationship with God, you have to be lessoned (lessened) of what and how you think.

    My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge because they have rejected knowledge, I will also reject them as my priest (Hosea 4:6). You can not have a relationship with God without the Spirit of God. It is human nature (a sexual mindset) that wants the treasures of God without having to commit himself or give up anything. That is a self serving way of thinking. By rejecting God’s Spirit, his people whom are called a kingdom of priests also reject his knowledge.

    The sex I referred to is a beast like mindset whose only focus is self. In the Book of Genesis, Adam representing humanity was put under a curse. The word six in the Greek language is hex. A hex is defined as an evil spell or something that brings bad fortune. My translation of the passage in Genesis3:17 is a bit different than most. The ground was cursed and it was also the encasement of man. It is only through intense struggle with his flesh (physical desires) that he could bring forth what is acceptable to God.

    In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul complains of the curse. He said, “ For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what am I doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do but I am doing the very thing I hate.(Romans 7: 14-15) In Galatians he goes on to say, But I say walk with the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are in opposition to one another, so you may not do the things that you please. But if you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the law………(my addition) of the flesh. A beast operates under the dictates or law of the physical nature. He is sensual and therefore sexy sexy sexy!

  26. Dadisi says:

    I appreciate having a community where I can share my passion with other desiring of the same thing. It is easy to wear people out who don’t really understand the importance of God in our lives. They say, “It doesn’t take all that”! I’m willing to give all that and more because I see the value of the relationship.

    One of the greatest realizations of my life was to come to understand that God knew more than I did. It may sound arrogant but I thought I was in charge of my life. By allowing him to be in charge of my life, he has shown me more than I could have ever imagined. He took me beyond me (my natural inclinations and perceptions) so I could see from a higher and broader point of view. Farther knows best.

  27. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I like what you say and I like the way you say it. Don’t take that too seriously. It sounds like flattery and God would not like me to flatter any man. (Job 32:21&22)

    I completely agree with your first two paragraphs. To the third paragraph I might add that it is not possible to do enough, even with intense struggle, to bring forth what is acceptable to God (Rom 9:16 & 11:32) all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (Isa 64:6).

    I am glad that you cleared it up that you are speaking about the law of the flesh. The law of God, which we can not keep, is a wonderful law, but God has not given any man, except Jesus, the ability to walk perfectly with the Spirit. Even the Apostle Paul could not do so., for God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (Rom 11:32 NIV). Man is not a beast, he is made in the image of God and therefore closer to God than any beast can be.

    We agree that men who do not do what God wants of us are acting like animals: Satan is an animal and it stands to reason that his angels act like him. I understand what you are saying and agree until you claim the number of man as sexy sexy sexy. Sexy is not a number. If the number of man is viewed as I believe then it is a number and one can even check the simple math by our simple math rules. If you remove one from seven you are left with six. It also follows the theme of the Bible; man is incomplete with out God. As I would say a six is always a six and can never be a seven until one is added.

    We both know that we can not teach each other. It is enough for me that we can discuss the lessons that the Spirit teaches. We both think we are right, but the more I think about the Bible the more I have to acknowledge (1 Cor 8:2 NIV) The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.

    I have thought about your views and I will not forget them. They may be closer to truth than mine. I know this because I think I know and therefore I am sure I do not know as I ought to know.

  28. carmen says:

    Revelation 13:18 says, sixhundred threescore and six.
    Could this be a social security number?
    600-60-0006

  29. astudent says:

    carmen,

    The King James Version of the Bible says “Six hundred threescore and six” (Maybe someone can tell me why the first six is capitalized) and the NIV uses the numerals 666. Your comments bring many thoughts to mind.

    I do not know if there is a 600 series of social security numbers. If not now there may be later in time. It also could be that when the earth comes under one rule the people might have a number system like our SS numbers. If the world government would use our system then they would not have to renumber U.S. citizens and that would make the task somewhat easer.

  30. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    Six in the Latin language is sex. Sex is both a number and a characteristic. Names and numbers merely symbolize the expression of a recognize item or value. The letter “X” for example, represents a value of ten in the Roman numerical system. It also represents the highest value of humanity which is a christ. That is why “christ” in the word “christmas” can be interchanged with an “X” and is commonly used around the holy day (holiday) season.

    The Movie trilogy “X-men is another use of symbolism being both a number and a characteristic. The main characters were anointed or gifted humans. Although still basically human, they are considered the highest form of man.

    As for the number six, it represents the lowest quality. In the Book of Genesis, God addressed Adam with a question saying “Where are you”? A transliteration of the text would turn question into the declaration “Wer are you”! The word “Wer” according to the Indo European language referrers to a lower form of man; Adam became beastlike or animalistic similar to a werewolf that is total controlled by his physical senses. He is sensual by nature and so are his decedents. The mark of a man-beast is his signature (sin nature).

  31. aBeliever says:

    I feel it unwise to read too much into the text because lets face it, very little is given. However, if I may borrow the theme of “sex, sex, sex” and say, “created, created, created” or 666. The number could actually mean any number of things, perhaps those that first read the text understood as talking about emporer Nero. Perhaps one is coming whose name would be equivelent of 666. But what I feel we do get from the text is that this number, which represents the beast that comes from out of the sea, we read in verse 15 the one beast gives breath (NASB) or life (KJV) to the beast that came from out of the sea. Yet another example of Satan trying to be like the Most High. This beast whose number is 666 has no life in and of himself. Only the creator is self sufficient, therefore he has the number of a man. Perhaps John is trying to drive it home that we should not be decieved by this MAN’s seemingly supernatural abilities because he is still only man. Let us also remember other times in scripture when something is said three times, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. Peter’s denial of Jesus three times. Jesus asking Peter three times do you love me and telling Peter to “feed my sheep”. A certain point is being driven home in each instance is it not?

    But I say let us not get caught up in worry over the beast or the mark of the beast, but let us place our hope firmly in our Lord Jesus Christ. Should they slaughter us for not worshipping the created then let it be. Why should we worry about those that can do no harm to our souls? In the days of this particular text they will probably find all sorts of horrific ways to slaughter believers. Let us stand boldly in that our as our brother Stephen did when they stoned him. Because I believe that in that our, like our brother Stephen, should we be the ones to live to see that hour, our Lord will not sit by as his beloved are brutalized, we shall see our Lord standing at the right hand of the Father. The beast cannot triumph!

  32. Dadisi says:

    A Believer,

    You make a good point about the number 3 which is why it needs to be brought in as an active member of the conversation. In many languages the letter “H” is silent. The word three without the “H” becomes tree. This is important because trees are vital to understanding the Garden of Eden. According to the narrative, there were two main trees in the garden. One was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the other was the tree of life. The number three according to biblical symbolism represents a family or family unit. A tree becomes a trio! If we use this new information, the interpretation changes.

    Now instead of trees there were two main families in the Garden. We know that the Godhead is a family of three. The father, Son and Holy Spirit are three but they are one family. What is generally not considered is the family that the serpent represents. He is not a lone ranger. The bible is very systematic and repeats the same themes over and over to emphasize certain points. If the family of God is three, the family of the serpent should also be three. Adding this information back into the current discussion of the mark of the beast, the beast is three but he is one family and its number is 666.

  33. aBeliever says:

    I believe that Satan does have a family of three, the world, the flesh, and himself the devil. And each member of his family does its duty to try and grab our attention away from The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It amazes me to think all that goes on constantly around us and within us that most of us are never even aware of.

    The world, the flesh, and the devil, all created entities. The Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit none of which the Bible alludes to being created but rather each Person took part in the creative process. Therefore can we deduct that the number of God would be 777?

    It is no wonder that Satan hates believers, because we hold the truth of who he really is in our busom. One of Satans greatest deceptions was to convince the world that he doesnt exist, and if he has convinced so many that he is not real, even some who profess themselves as Christians, well then he has indeed kept true to his character and the same deception he worked in the garden of Eden he has worked in the hearts and minds of many today, he has made us doubt the word of God. And what is doubt but the sin of unbelief.

    This is just my own theory and I haven’t examined in thouroghly yet, but I believe that many of the answers for the end time are revealed in the beginning. Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be when the Son of Man returns. I would also like to note that in ch 5 v.22 of Genesis we are told of a man named Enoch who “walked with God”, and “he was not, for God took Him.” But before God took him he fathered Methuselah and Methuselah father Lamech who in turn fathered Noah. Does the fact that God took Enoch before His judgement came upon the land lend itself as a clue that the Lord’s people will indeed be taken before judgement comes upon the land? I can’t really say for sure.

    Sorry if I got off subject and if I seem to be rambling!

  34. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I apologize for taking so long to respond.

    I have been trying to pin down just what it is that I disagree with. I said it was when you say the number of man is sexy, sexy, sexy, but that is not exactly what I mean. As you said it is 6, 6, 6 and I agree with that completely. I think it is the word sexy, as the original language does not indicate sex as a possibility. One can not get sexy, sexy, sexy by translating the original language directly to English. Also one can not get the same meaning for “where” from Genesis 3:9 (Strong’s Concordance) 335. ‘ay, ah’ee; perh. from H370; where ? hence how ?:–how, what, whence, where, whether, which (way)

    I don’t even understand how anyone gets 666 from the original language – ((Strong’s Concordance) 5516. chi xi stigma, khee xee stig’-ma; the H22d, H14th and an obsol. letter (G4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the H5th and H6th), used as numbers; denoting respectively H600, H60 and H6; H666 as a numeral:–six hundred threescore and six.) But then all language is Greek to me, even American (We don’t really speak English).

    It is funny to me, because I agree with your results, just not how you got them. One could say that I am too picky, but I have found that I do not become confused if I have the basics firmly entrenched in my mind.

    Have you noticed that the weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents? I have wondered if money was the beast that comes from out of the sea. As aBeliever pointed out it has no life until the first beast gave it (Thanks for pointing that out, I didn’t see it before).

    It could be that the first beast is government and I don’t believe it could give real life to anything. However governments do give power to money, but it is obivious that they can not control it: it has a life of it’s own. The second beast comes from the sea, which is a symbol of mankind. It is correctly said that money can be someone’s god and unlike other gods it really does have power. I can not think of anything, other than God, that has as much power. Try reading Revelation 13 a few times using governments as the first beast and money as the second.

    If anyone does not believe money has power consider the time that we live in. The only real worries the whole world has is “What is going to happen to my money?”.

    Verse 18 does not say which beast. It could be the first beast and if that is the case it would be the government and we are the government: same number 666.

  35. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    I spend quite a bit of time studying linguistics. Etymology is one of my favorite pass times. It has been the key to my understanding scripture. Words are so important that the Savior is referred to as the Word of God. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1). And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us full of hope and grace. (John1:14). It is our relationship with the Word that explains the word. Jesus said, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits (prophets) nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

    I really like the part that says, “The flesh profits nothing”. A prophet (man) is supposed to speak for God who is Spirit. The flesh can not speak for God; its prophecies have no value. This leads into our discussion of the beast because the flesh is the animal nature which is opposed to the spirit. Tin the Latin Language animal is synonymous with soul. Our soulish nature which includes our emotion and intellect wars against a truth knowledge of God. We as believers are to Casting down imaginations and everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bring into captivity every thought into the obedience to Christ (The Word) (2 Corinthians 10: 5).

    The beast nature limits mans ability to have a genuine relationship with God. The symbol of this limitation, which a spirit, is represented in the number 6. Fear doubt and unbelief are a family of spirits that hinder man. The beast, anti christ and the false prophet are a family. With the mind of a beast God can not entrusting anything of value to man because man would destroy himself. Adam and his wife were driven out of the Garden for just that reason. The tree (family) of life is too precious (valuable) to allow fallen man to defile it. A beast only thinks of itself. It is a beast’s nature to destroy; it does not have an option. Destruction is a signature (sin nature). Man is hexed and hex is the number 6 in the Greek language.

  36. astudent says:

    Dadisi,
    (me too)

    Well while I would agree that God’s Word is important and I agree that a man can not speak “for” God, but that is not say that we can not or should not speak “about” God. To prophesy can mean to speak about God as well as other things, such as foretell the future. So I would say that kind of prophecy even though it comes from man (flesh) is good and right.

    Being one who believes we should be as accurate as we can be it seems to me that when you say “The beast, anti christ and the false prophet are a family” don’t you really mean the dragon, anti christ, and false prophet? It seems to me that the beasts are creations of the dragon. The whole world followed the first beast, but the whole world does not follow the anti christs (there are many anti christs), but the whole world does follow governments.

    If anyone has read much of what I write they know that I have no love of government. I have said much about this government, because no one else has spoken the truth about it. However all of man’s government is unbelief. We are declaring that God can not govern us without our help. Then if you look a little deeper it is obvious that we do not want God to govern us at all. When God chose a people as his own He ruled that people, until they, out of unbelief, asked Him to appoint them a king from mankind. If it were not so wrong it might seem funny: they didn’t trust God as their king and yet they ask the One they didn’t trust to select a king! If we looked at ourselves with truth, we ask God to appoint a president that “we” think is right and then “we” vote. If we don’t vote for the right man then will God not be strong enough to elect him? Sorry, I’m doing it again.

    When you said “With the mind of a beast God can not entrust anything of value to man because man would destroy himself”, my first thought was “but there is little of more importance than the Bible and it does not destroy, but heals, and my second thought was that God watches over the Word and does not let us change the Word; so I agree with you.

    If you have read my post “My understanding of tongues” you know that I believe all language is confused. It seems to me that God has confused all communications between men. I can easily be confused and I only understand one language. I have found it very difficult to understand “exactly” what others are saying and they have found it equally as difficult to understand my attempts to communicate. Because I am no politician others sometimes become angry with my attempts. Hope you don’t.

    I think I understand why it seems to me a bit wrong to draw conclusions from Latin. God speaks to a person in the language, or languages that they understand. Because I do not understand Latin God has not used it to show me anything and because you do He has used it to show you truth. The truth is truth no matter what language is used and that is why the method seems wrong to me, because I do not understand Latin; yet the message is the same. God shows me different ways to look at something from different translations, just as He shows you different ways from different languages.

    Just to throw something in, it seems to me that God is speaking of the Holy Spirit in John 1:1. Jesus is the flesh that the Holy Spirit indwelled, however Jesus only said what the Father told him to say. Jesus was born in Bethlehem so it would seem logical that he was not with God in the beginning. I use to read Proverbs 8 and say to myself that it is Jesus, but now I say that is the Holy Spirit.

  37. Dadisi says:

    Student

    How I really started with etymology was studying the Word of God. You researched the word “Where” in the Hebrew language (Strong’s Concordance) 335, ‘ay, ah’ee; perh; from h370; how, why, whence, where, whether, which, (way). Genesis 3:9 which the word “where” was taken reads, “And the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you”? I mentioned that “Wer” in the Indo-European language means “a lower form of man”. Supporting evidence of the Indo-European definition comes from the surrounding text.

    There were several affects of Adam’s partaking of the forbidden. The first was he and his wife’s eyes were open. It’s interesting that the Hebrew word for “where” is “ay” (eye). Their wells were opened, minds were penetrated, and armor pierced. The mind’s eye has to do with perception; Adam’s point of reference changed after being poisoned. They were intoxicated (poisoned) which closed one set of eyes (the original God given perception) and open another set of eyes (the point of view of the serpent). Becoming a beast does not begin as a physical change but one that is spiritual and then mental. As a result of perception changing, a rupture of relationship occurred between Adam and his wife, simultaneously a separation manifested between humanity and God.

  38. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    O. K. I think I finally understand. You have to be patient when you explain anything about language to me as I have no talent for it. Flat ground to you is a mountain to me.

    I kind of disagree with Adam and Eve being poisoned. The fruit was only the knowledge of good and evil. They were already sinners, or poisoned and just didn’t know it until they acquired the knowledge of it. I have elaborated on this in my post “Original sin”. The point of view was not the serpents; it was truth and we should embrace truth even when it shows us as imperfect.

    I have to wonder if it wasn’t good that they ate from the tree. Proverbs 4:7 (NIV) says, “Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.” and they understood when they ate from the tree and it did cost all that they had: all that really mattered.

    Truth is we are all born beasts and then, if we chose, born spiritual. (Rom 11:32 NIV) For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. That would include Adam and Eve.

    It is glory to God that, in His mercy, He had a plan and worked it so that everyone, that wants salvation, can be saved.

    You are interested in words and therefore understand them better than I do so let me ask you a question. Is the Holy Spirit a separate entity? The Father is and the Son is, but is the Holy Spirit? It seems like the Holy Spirit is because we are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but the word spirit has many meanings and usually can not mean a separate being. I may have to remove the post that says Melchizedek is the Holy Spirit and write He is the Son of God.

  39. Dadisi says:

    Student

    The point of view of the serpent was opposed to that of God. Scripture says that enmity was place between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. They are opposites like light and darkness. One displaces the other and can not occupancy the same place at the same time. Not all wisdom is created equal. Worldly wisdom is different from the wisdom of God. Solomon speaks of wisdom and folly as personalities that solicit man to come their way. Wisdom is the Spirit of God but folly is the wisdom of the world. Worldly wisdom is an illusion that misleads and directs man to down a path that he may never recover.

    The poison of the serpent was his lies. He blasphemed the character of God calling him a liar and charging him with covetousness. I agree with you that man had to have some sin already in him but that is necessary for making choices. God desires man on his own free will to chose to be obedient so provided to him are two extremes. Man is born into one extreme which is the sensible world but if he walks with God he is born anew into the spiritual way and a broader perception that leads him the other extreme.

    As I said before, God is a family of three, a trio (tree) of life. When Adam partook of the poison of the family of worldly knowledge, his perception of reality changed. Becoming self center, man saw God with new eyes. The prime directive of a beast is survival so God was considered the enemy of man and thus rejected. As a result man became his own covering, his own standard and his own god. The only man that says he is self made is a fool. Foolishness is the wisdom of man.

  40. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    Forgive me for I am simple minded. Because of this I must break everything down to simple terms. So I must attempt to understand just what it is that seems to separate any of our views.

    We both agree that the Serpent is evil. His views do indeed oppose God. He is a proud creature who thinks of himself as greater than God. In order to hurt God and prove that he is superior to mankind he tricked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit.

    Actually we agree almost perfectly with each other. There are two kinds of wisdom and Satan’s lies are a form of poison: the Bible refers to Satan as the father of lies.

    I had not considered that sin was necessary for making choices, but it does seem logical. (Thanks) However to God there is no little sin as we are condemned for any sin. Saying it a little differently; we could not have been born with perfect belief as then we would never choose to sin and therefore God could not display His mercy.

    I don’t think man became self centered when he ate the forbidden fruit. He was already self centered though he didn’t realize it until he had the knowledge of good and evil.

    Adam didn’t just view God differently, but he also viewed himself differently.

    Though the prime directive of a beast is survival Satan isn’t just any beast, because he is capable of pride and that is not an attribute of any other beast. It was pride of himself that caused him to invent lies.

  41. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    I have very much enjoyed the dialogue. Now that we are on the same page, we continue anew. Iron sharpens iron which makes us both better by removing the dull edges.

    The beasts of the field are not natural beast but spiritual in nature. The serpent was cursed as the supreme beast of a collection. Whenever you study the worship of other gods, according to the scripture, they are a part of a religious system. The Babylonians,, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all worshiped the same collection of gods although there were different names. Baal worship was the Canaanite religious system that challenged Israel’s faithfulness to God.

    A pride is the best of something. It is not just one spiritual entity but a collection of the highest or most extreme. The plagues against Egypt were the medium used by God to show his superiority over each spirit of the Egyptian pantheon. There were ten gods and each was challenged according to its level of power, popularity or influence. The twins were the last two to fall. The sun god was shut out by complete darkness. He could not withstand the power of the God of Israel.

    I consider the most powerful member of the pantheon to be the queen mother. She reigns over the entire natural world. Everyone born into the world belongs to her so when Israel prepared to leave, she refused them passage. Pride exalts itself against the knowledge of God. A granny is a midwife. She decides who will or will not be birthed. God said to her, Israel is my son, my firstborn. And I say to you, Let my son go that he may serve me. And if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, your firstborn (4:21-23). It was the pride of Egypt, the first born son that paid the price for Israel the leave Egypt. The red sea was a sea of blood.

  42. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I’m not so sure we are on the same page now. If you have read my post about iron sharpening iron you would not have said that to me, because there is no way one can sharpen iron with iron. “All” metals are sharpened with a stone. The verse means God, our rock, sharpens man and it is not possible for man to sharpen man.

    I always compare what is said to the Word of God and God either affirms or refutes it. I do not allow anyone other than God to teach me. I enjoy others views about all topics, because I, like others, tend to lock in my ideas and that hampers my total understanding. Sometimes how others view something will, when it is compared to the Word, cause me to gain understanding that I would not have reached without that view.

    If you have a sense of humor: I like what you say, but I don’t believe a word of it and you would be wise to treat what I say the same way.

    As I see it the best that we can do for each other is push the other against the Stone.

    Having said that, I can not agree with your statement that the beasts of the field are not natural beast but spiritual in nature. The Bible says in Genesis 2:19 (NIV) Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. If I accepted your view then “all” beasts, or animals would be spirits and not flesh. Your strength is language, so notice the Hebrew word “chay” that is translated beast. It means flesh and not spirit: chay not ruwach.

    Satan is a genuine reptile that walked upright (dinosaur) and his curse was to crawl on his belly and eat dust all the days of his life (changed into a serpent). I would agree that now he is a spirit because his flesh has died, but it is clear (to me) that he was created flesh. How would a spirit crawl on its belly? Do spirits have bellies? How would a spirit eat dust?

    I see no profit in studying gods of the world. They are only the figments of the imagination of men and dreamed up in order to control those who will believe in them. I do not believe God made any false gods, which would be the logical assumption when one thinks the beasts of the field were created spirits.

    I have heard that those who are taught to recognize counterfeit currency must first become familiar with genuine bills and then counterfeits are easily identified. That seems to me the way God’s Word should be approached. Know the Bible and pay no attention to false gods.

  43. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    I love studying history, especially from a spiritual point of view. If you study the bible, you also study the gods of this world. The bible is a comparative course of learning. Listen to both sides of the game, good verses evil and understand the characters. The spirit world is invisible to the naked eye so it is only through the Spirit of God that it can be learned. There are natural laws that operate much like spiritual laws and some that do not. The Holy Spirit is a teacher! He will lead you into all knowledge.

  44. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    Again I agree with you and the way I view what you said I agree with you completely.

    History is kind of interesting, but it is only man’s mistakes. It would seem beneficial to know others mistakes so we do not make the same ones. However history proves that we do. (Thought that might make you laugh)

    When someone says anything about other gods it brings to my mind Isaiah chapter 44 and anyone can see the mistake of those who make and worship gods when they consider that chapter. To study other gods any farther than chapter 44 just seems a waste to me, but I certainly would not judge others for it. I believe God views all other gods as figments of man’s imagination and so I do also.

  45. Dadisi says:

    The gods of this world are produced of man’s imagination! The world is an illusion that is interrupted by our natural senses. We are sensual beings born of the natural world which the gods of this world rule. It is not until we are born again of the Spirit of God that we are freed from their influence.

    Just as in the story of the Exodus, each god represents a barrier to our growth. Maturation in God is the systematic destruction of the illusionary world. After being freed, there is a change of citizenship. Although we are in the natural world, a believer is not of the natural world; as pilgrims and travelers, it is not our home.

    A hacker called Gideon chopped down the Baal Pole (world’s standard) and so we must also destroy the illusionary gods (idols) of the holy wood (Hollywood). It is very difficult to see the forest (illusionary world) for the trees (our idols). Our worldly ideals (idols) separate us from the knowledge of God.

  46. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I think I understand why I like reading your words. You say the things that I agree with in a different way than I do. Though it comes as a surprise that someone else sees the same things, in the same way that I do, it shouldn’t, because we both are using the same Text Book.

    Anyway I like what you say. Don’t get the big head: I’m a nobody. (I like it that way)

  47. jeff says:

    The King James translates:[5]

    “And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

    The number 6 is not repeated three times…666 is a whole number in an of itself

  48. jeff says:

    In the Greek manuscripts, the Number is rendered in Greek numerical form as χξϛʹ,[6] or sometimes literally as ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ, hexakósioi hexēkonta héx, “six hundred and sixty-six”.

  49. astudent says:

    Jeff,
    You are correct when you use the KJV version of the number, but as I said numbers are numbers and not words. The NIV and the NKJV translates the number as 666 and one can say six hundred and sixty six, or six, six, six.

    Look at it from this perspective. It is a riddle and riddles have to be looked at in a different way, because the meaning is hidden and can not be revealed when viewed in a common way. I might add that riddles are simple when understood.

    Consider the number of God. It has to be the number one and yet it seems three: Father, son and Holy Spirit. I can not say that “one” is a whole number in and of itself and that is the answer to the riddle, because it leaves out “three”.

    You do right by doubting me. Even if I am correct I could not teach anyone, because the Bible says “As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another” and iron can not be sharpened with iron: no way, no how.

    The way I understand the number of man fits everything else in the Bible as I understand the Bible. Even that the number of man and the number of the Beast are the same number. We both live in the sixth day. God has yet to inter His rest so everything from Geneses 1:1 until God rests is the sixth day. The day of the Beast and the day of man is the same day.

    Because you think that the number of man and beast is six hundred and sixty six I would be interested in your understanding of the number and it’s meaning.

  50. astudent says:

    Jeff,

    Thanks for the comment as it has caused me to try to explain the number of man a different way and by doing so I have also learned more. Because I am still considering the number of man I felt I should add to my previous comment.

    Consider this, the NIV version of Revelations 13:18 says “if anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast” and then it gives a number. If the number given is really the number of man then what is there to calculate? The verse doesn’t say calculate what the number means. It says calculate the “number”.

    The KJV says “Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast” and that is just a different way to say the same thing the NIV says. (Of course)

    To say the number given is the total understanding then why does the Bible say “if anyone has insight” or “Let him that hath understanding”, because if there is nothing more to understand about the “number” then anyone who merely reads the verse has insight or understanding.

    Did you understand the number the first time you read the verse or did you have to read it many times and try to fit the number into many theories? That is what I did, but I see now that, like all riddles, the obvious answer is always the wrong answer.

    Actually I tried to use the number to determine the future of man, or calculate how it factors into it instead of trying to calculate the number itself. I also used the number as 6-6-6 just as most others do. I seldom, if ever, hear the number as six hundred and sixty six, or six hundred threescore and six; unless someone is referring to the verse itself. It seems to always be said six, six, six.

    As I think about the riddle of the number of man it seems ridiculously easy when compared to the riddle of Samson in the Book of Judges. And yet the riddle of Samson is easy to understand when the answer is known. If we had not been told the answer there is no way we could have gotten it and that is my defense when anyone accuses me of ferreting out the answer of the number of man. God must have told me, because anyone can see that I am not smart enough to figure it out myself. However I do claim to understand the number. I must add that I do not claim that God speaks to me in any other way than through the Bible.

  51. HB Zimba says:

    We seem to be united in the opinion that man’s number is 6…..

    so why mention the number 3 times?

    I believe that the 600, three score and 6 things is all part of the riddle for us to get to 6,6,6.

    Why mention mans number 3 times?

    Man will play a role in the uprising of the said beast, they will follow blindly.
    The fact that the beast will have an influence on the monetary system is a big indicator.

    Who is the current financial power of the world? Does their currency bare a mark??

    I’m a beginner at this… however I’m seeing a link here.

    The $1 has a mark of the three masons….

    if the whole world was forced to use the dollar in order to buy or sell, wouldn’t they be recieving the mark??

    new world order… one currency…

    three 6….. three man….. three mason.

    thats my theory, feel free to give me any feedback.

    sorry this is very hastily written

  52. astudent says:

    HB Zimba,

    Well if your theory is absolutely correct then everyone in America has received the mark and we would all perish. This would contradict those verses that say anyone that receives Jesus is saved.

    Also I do not believe that we are the current financial power of the world. We owe too much to other nations and are merely slaves to them.

    I don’t quite understand that money has the mark of the three masons. Don’t you mean “free masons”?

    I do agree with your basic assumption that money is the tool that the beast will use to force those to receive his mark. Perhaps I should say to keep the mark as the number and mark are the same.

    I also agree that the number is said 600 and sixty, six as a way of making a riddle out of the number of man.

  53. Anita Rivas says:

    Dear astudent,

    I see that I am not the only person who found it rather odd that Rev 13:18 refers to the number of man, which is six, and subsequently seems to indicate that his number is 666. I saw an article on the web which clears up this apparent contradiction by explaining that the two separate numbers 6 and 666 in verse 18 refer respectively to the two separate beasts in chapter 13. It explains where the number of man comes from as well as the rest of Revelation 13. It describes the two beasts which John saw, in a way that I have never seen before. This rather unique perspective on Revelation 13 is different but it is very believable. I have read many commentaries about the book of Revelation and I have to say that most of them, honestly, are quite pathetic. But I am inclined to believe this new approach because everything seems to match perfectly. If you have not already seen this article, I would like to refer you to it.
    It is called: “Nuclear Beasts of Revelation 13″, and can be found at
    http://sites.google.com/site/newinterpretations/Home/revelation-13

    Sincerely,
    Anita Rivas

  54. Dadisi says:

    Jesus had a conversation with Nicodemus in which he explained how the kingdom of God operates. There a two types of births. One is through water which is called a natural birth. This is the first birth, a birth into the natural world or sensible world. There is also a second birth. It is a birth out of the natural world into the spiritual or invisible kingdom. The second birth is what we know as being born again. If you desire to see the kingdom of God, you have to be born again.

    Being reborn is the acceptance of the Spirit of God in your life and the Lordship of Jesus over your life. The word Jesus means “Jeu (Law) seus (to show)”. He is the Word of God made flesh. As a new law and standard in the world, Christ exposed the corrupt religious system that controls the world.

    In the Book of Genesis, God put enmity (perfect hatred) between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. They are completely opposite from one another. In the Book of James it says that he who loves the world hates God. The kingdom of God and the world system are diametrically opposed to one another.

    Jesus (the law of a circumcised heart) said that no one goes to the father (farther side) except by him. He is the way, the truth and the life! In essence, a person has to give up the world which he has known all his life in order to receive what God has to offer. The rich young ruler could not give up the world although he expressed a desire to follow (fellow) Christ.

    The love of money is the root of the sensible world system. The worship of the serpent which is the symbol used for U.S currency ($) is the mark of a beast. The dollar is a standard of the world currency. Jesus is the standard of the God’s currency. Worship God or the Spirit of the world but you can’t do both. Hatred of God is reflected in a person’s love of the world and its money. Faith in God is the currency of heaven and Without faith it is impossible to please God.

    The tribulation is the process of dividing th children of God from the children of the world. Those who accept the mark are actually the ones who reject the Spirit of God and the Lordship of Jesus. The two systems grew up entertwined but when they mature the harvest occurs. One will be gathered safe into the shelter and the other will be thrown in the fire.

  55. astudent says:

    Anita Rivas,

    Thank you for the comment. I read the article and though I do not agree with it. I found it interesting. I do not believe every thing in it matches perfectly with the Bible.

    I can not picture every one worshiping a bomb.
    (Rev 13:8 NASB) And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
    That says everyone that ever lived worshiped the beast and atom bombs were not known before our times.

    The beast from the sea would, it seems to me, have to be symbolic of something that everyone would have a chance to worship. Maybe it is money, as money would qualify in that it has been around for ever (I think) and it is an idol, but unlike any other idol that I can think of, it really does have power. Actually it has more power than an atom bomb as one can not make or deliver any kind of bomb with out money.

    What ever the beasts are it is obvious that they are only symbolic of something else.

    I believe that we are in the sixth day. The days that are spoken of in Geneses are God’s days and the seventh day spoken of is yet to come. Jesus said His Father still works so God has yet to rest. God still forms men in the womb and still keeps this universe together. Read what Elihu has to say about God. It is not a God that has gone away to rest but a God that works every day.

  56. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    Thanks for the meaning of the word Jesus. I have read some where that it means God saves and it seems right that both meanings are true.

    I would only disagree slightly with your comment as I don’t think Jesus is a new law or standard. The law is the same; it was completed by Jesus. The law is right and just but it demanded death for anyone that did not perfectly obey it.

    Jesus completed the law by dying for anyone that would admit that they are guilty and deserve death. But the law itself is the same law. (Mat 5:18 NIV) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    I certainly agree that money is the mark of a beast. I hope you don’t become irritated with me because I am such a nit picker. There are few people that I agree with as much as I agree with your comments and I like your different angle of viewing Scripture.

  57. Dadisi says:

    Nit picking is a way we learn. I receive your criticism and agree with you. Jesus is the original law but manifested in the flesh. I referred to him as the new law contrasting him to the corrupted orthodoxy used by the Pharisees who had book knowledge but no actual relationship with God though the Holy Spirit. We understand that without love the law of God is a heavy burden.

    Only a circumcised heart enjoys an intimate relationship with the Father. The flesh has been cut away so there no blockage of communication. After Adam had partaken of the forbidden, the law of sin and death was given permission to reign over him and his descendents.

    We are born dead into the natural world as children of Adam (a tomb). Jesus was also buried in a tomb (Adam) symbolizing our fleshly condition but in three day he rose and those who believe rose with him. We were in a grave situation and God sent forgiveness to all that would receive it. By putting on the armor (amour) of God, we are saved from the wiles and temptations of the adversary who rules the physical world. We are also saved from ourselves who were in agreement with the great illusion, the father of lies.

  58. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    After much thought about the law I look at it quite different than when it was convicting me.

    The law is wonderful and perfect. The reason it seems a heavy burden is we look at it that way. It is only logical that we do because we can not fully obey it, so instead of viewing it as perfect and wonderful we think of it as a cruel taskmaster.

    It seems to me that we are thinking of ourselves instead of others when we contemplate the law. If we think of ourselves the law is a taskmaster, but if we put ourselves in the place of others the law becomes clear. All of the law comes from the second royal law and that is “do to others what you would have them do to you”. If anyone obeys the law they do not sin against others. If everyone did there would be no murder, theft, unfaithfulness in marriage, or any offense against others. If everyone obeyed the law there would be world peace: just as there will be when God restores the world and it will be so because we will be able to obey the law.

    Sin is really not forgiven. The penalty must be paid for sin and that penalty is the second death, which is separation from God. Jesus paid that penalty for those who want truth bad enough to admit truth and ask God for forgiveness.

    The truth is I am guilty and deserve the second death, but God, in His mercy, has worked a plan that allows me to escape the second death. However the penalty for my sins, because the law can not be changed, had to be paid and therefore Jesus, paying my penalty, had to experience the second death in my place.

    The death of Jesus on the cross, though real and terrible, was symbolic of the second death. If Jesus died the first death for us we would not have to experience it, yet we all must. I believe that is why Jesus said “Why have you forsaken me”, because God had to separate Himself from Jesus; that is the second death. Though Jesus knew his father would have to leave him it was agony of the moment that caused him to cry out.

    It seems to me that we are not actually born dead. I would say that we are born sure to die, but until we are old enough to sin, and know it is sin, we have not yet been separated from God. God is perfectly fair and would not condemn a child until that child is guilty. Consider David’s son conceived in sin and yet David knew the child would be waiting for him in Heaven.

    I certainly agree 100% with your statement “Jesus is the original law but manifested in the flesh”. He is the only one other than his Father that perfectly obeys the law.

    Even when God judges everyone in the end times, he will not violate the law, because those who are seperated will be seperated because they wanted to be.

  59. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    What you said has caused pause in me. It has taken me a while to respond because i have seen someone who understands. from my vantage point, that is rare and because of your words i am encouraged. Maybe that is the puropse of this blog, to encourage those who truly desire to be the church and not just go to church.

  60. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I know, that you know, that I claim no understanding on my own, but just for those who haven’t read it “I only understand what God has given me and sometimes I don’t even understand that”. (That is why I am here)

    I like your comments because you also search for truth and you consider what I say as much as I consider your thoughts.

    I have to admit that I had a selfish motive for this blog. I wanted and still want to understand everything about our Heavenly Father. I knew I had the Holy Spirit to teach me, who is the perfect teacher, and I realized that all I needed was all of the questions, but I am just smart enough to know I can not think of all of them. Knowing that the Web covered the whole world I thought that if anyone had a question that I have not asked the Spirit I might find it here.

    Now, because of brothers such as you, I realize that this blog might be used to encourage others. I would very much like it if it could be used by God to encourage some of my brothers.

    All Christians are the Church and the more we learn about our Father the better Church we will be.

    Keep on reading and commenting because we can both learn from each other. I have much to learn and a great desire to do so.

    Just for the record: you wouldn’t know that I understand what I do unless you also understand. Thanks for passing along some encouragement.

  61. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    It appears that we need one another. Both the spiritual and material worlds are founded on family. God is a family and so is the adversary who pretends to be God. It is only through intimacy of relationship that we come to know the truth. God has given believers his Spirit to lead and guide us into maturity.

    The world is a very lonely place without companionship so God has given us family that is outside of the family we were naturally born into. Being born again into a spiritual life, we now have a spiritual family that is more abundant and has much greater resources than that the one of the natural world.

    Born selfish which is the character of the adversary, our walk with God trains us to be selfless one level at a time. Humility is the destruction of pride and pride is the spirit that reigns over the material world. When pride is destroyed in us, we can walk, think and act without hindrance. We are in the material world but not of it because of the new birth..

    I am human and that is the bane of my existence. To be human is to be corrupted, dirty or tainted. Humus means dirt or soil and man means to think. We are all corrupt in the way that we think because it is not the way of God. He has to train us to be like him and to live according to his heart. To err is human but to forgive is divine.

    Selflessness is to walk in forgiveness. It is the goal of the adversary to keep us selfish. To be selfish is to behave as a child, immature. Paul said, “When I was child, I spoke as a child. I understood as a child, I thought as a child but when I became a man, I put away childish things” (Corinthians 13:11). Wait on the Lord! Put your weight on the law of love (Jesus) and lean not to your own understanding.

  62. Dadisi says:

    A continuation on the topic of the mark of the beast:

    The symbol used the represent the currency the United States is a serpent on a tree. That’s ironic! Minted coins have maxim “IN GOD WE TRUST”. Could that god be the serpent on the tree? No one will be able to buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast. I believe that in Germany the currency is referred to as a Mark. In ancient times and still today, the governors of the world have touted themselves as gods; often they have had their images immortalized as a minted coin.

    During the time when Rome dominated the world, Caesar considered himself to be a god. When asked about the paying of taxes, Jesus responded, “Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar and God what belongs to God”. Who do you trust in, Caesar who represents the system of the world or Jesus who represents the kingdom of heaven? It is the love (worship and veneration) of the spirit of the world that is the root of all evil. The love of the world is perfect hatred towards God and hatred towards God is the Mark of a beast

  63. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I can only agree that money is of this world and it is a very powerful idol.

    When I read about the first beast that comes out of the sea in the Book of Revelations I see many clues that seem to me to indicate that the beast is the idol “money”.

    It comes out of the sea. The sea is sometimes used to symbolize the nations of the world and the idea for money comes from man. Without money it would not be possible to buy or sell and therefore not possible to commit many of the offenses against God that we do.

    The dragon (Satan) gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. There can be no doubt that money has power and God, being a jealous God, would not give this power to money.

    (Rev 13:4 NIV) Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?”
    Men do worship money and even I would ask what is like money and who in this world can make war against it. One can not even equip an army without it. People worship Satan with and because of their money. People lie, steal, and murder for money and those who do so are worshiping Satan by doing as Satan does.

    (Rev 13:5 NIV) The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
    There are many rich people in this world that are proud of their money and use it to blaspheme God. If you want to say something against God and you have money you have a much better chance of spreading your slander because the world idolizes the rich.

    (Rev 13:7 NIV) He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
    Are not those who worship Allah rich and do they not use their money to make war against us? Doesn’t money have power over every tribe, people, language and nation? And hasn’t it had that power ever sense it was invented?

    (Rev 13:8 NIV) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
    Do not all of the inhabitants of the earth worship money? If you see your brother in need and you have the means and yet you do not help him, ask yourself ‘Who did I just worship by my actions, God or money?’

    You got me going, didn’t you? There is something that I do not see clearly. Where is the symbol that is used to represent money displayed? I certainly agree that the trust of the god of this country has it printed right on it. Christians read the phrase and think it means the God of the universe, but the god this country trusts is the dollar. The dollar is supposed to make everything alright! The government no longer calls on God, but they claim money will heal the land and we must borrow money to save it.

    Those who got us in this mess claim our misuse of credit, or borrowing more than we could pay back, is the cause and they are going to have to borrow more than we can pay back to get us out of it!!!!!! GO FIGURE!!!!!

    God says to put our trust in Him and do not put our trust in man or anything but Him and He says that the borrower becomes slave to the lender. Once again God’s word is proven right.

  64. Lux Aeterna says:

    astudent,

    Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom: Let the one having reason count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man–and its number is 666.

    This is the direct translation from greek that the New Testament was writen in (not hebrew as Pip stated). Also 666 was written as the greek numerals 666 and not written out as “six hundred three score and six” nor was it written as “six hundred and sixty-six”.

    I posted this only because I have yet to see anyone truely go to the origins of the verse in question. With that in mind, I do not see how someone can claim to have “calculated” the number without examining the original greek text.

    I must disagree with you on many grounds. Firstly, I, personally, do not believe God to give dynamic knowledge (such as revelation as to the numbers meaning) if it “will not really reveal anything else about God’s word.” Secondly, your use of scripture to support a theory disturbs me. You said: “The number of God is “one” (Mark 12:29)” when the verse in full says nothing of God’s number being “one”, but simply used the word “one” in a sentence implying individual or only, not numeric. I apologize if it offends, but if this were to be insight from God, I don’t believe the bearer of that message would have delivered it the way you have.

    I do not feel you have adequately supported your belief to require belief from others. Your lack of foundation for your belief only disturbs me because you choose to announce it to the internet. I can easily respect the belief that you have “caculated” the number; especially if you believe it to bring you closer to God. However, I would caution your boldness: Words have a way of causing more harm than their creator intended. At no point in your post did you say that you prayed over what “dawned on” you. I fear your previous suspicion is true: “I began to think it might just be me…”

  65. astudent says:

    Lux Aeterna,

    Thanks for the opinion. I thought 666 would have been written with numerals because that would be the logical way to write it. However we do not possess the original manuscript, so even if one has spent his entire life studying the Greek language he could not state positively just how it was first written.

    The NIV was translated by over a hundred scholars and it uses the numerals 666. I usually use it, but if my favorite translation was the KJV I might have never reached this understanding.

    You say, I personally, do not believe God to give dynamic knowledge if it “will not really reveal anything else about God’s word.” Where did you get that idea? If God can do anything then He could do that. Many verses say the same thing. If one has already read a verse and understands it when he reads a second verse, that says the same thing, it reveals nothing new; it only reinforces what he already understood. You will probably say that I am arrogant, but it was a personal revelation to me when I gleaned my understanding of the riddle. If I understood the number of man, then I had at least some insight.

    You say the word used in Mark 12:29 that is translated “one” in full says nothing of God’s number being “one”. That is rather confusing because Strong’s Concordance defines “heis” as “a prim. numeral; one:”. Also the KJV says (Mark 12:29 KJV) “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord”. I suppose one could say that it means an individual, but because there is only one God I don’t see the difference. If God has a number in my opinion it has to be “one”. What other number would you give to God?

    You say, “I apologize if it offends, but if this were to be insight from God, I don’t believe the bearer of that message would have delivered it the way you have.” It did not offend me, but where did you get that belief from? If God can chose shepherds to be Apostles could He not have chosen someone to reveal something from men like me? If you will apply Christian principles to my flawed way of delivery, and I am flawed, then forgive me. Don’t let it bother you.

    O. K. if I must defend myself to make myself understood; I do not require anyone to believe as I do. As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another: it doesn’t! My reason for the post is so that others might consider it as true; not believe that it is true. If the Spirit within anyone can use what I wrote to impart understanding to that individual then I am happy and if I am wrong and God uses my error to teach someone then again I am happy. If you or anyone does not accept what I say at face value they are doing right.

    You chide me for choosing to announce what I believe on the internet, but didn’t you announce what you believe on the same internet? Don’t take me the wrong way. I believe you have a moral obligation to say what you believe. At the same time I have an obligation to say what I believe. You can agree or disagree just as anyone else can. How else can we acquire the questions to ask the Master?

    I certainly agree with you when you say “Words have a way of causing more harm that their creator intended”. The only way that I can think of to keep from hurting anyone’s feelings is to say nothing. Those who think I should keep quiet never seem to think they should. I am no hypocrite so I believe they should say what is on their mind. The only thing that bothers me is when someone tries to make me feel guilty for posting something I believe. Someone will always find something they do not like about anything that is said.

    A man usually sees what he looks for. If you do not accept what I say as truth you do right. But only looking for how I could be wrong is not right. If I am right about something the one who is only looking for error can not see it because he is looking in the wrong direction. A wise man looks in both directions.

  66. Karlus says:

    BLESSED YOU ARE.

  67. Karlus says:

    WAKE UP ZION WAKE UP

  68. Blind Man says:

    Student:

    Your thoughts are clearly stated, well pondered, and you refute disagreement with tact. I say this not to flatter but to encourage. In fact I believe that any time I compliment someone for anything good, I am actually praising God. After all, we humans are created in His image. Try as we might to deny Him, we often reflect His goodness and glory despite ourselves. I like the example you gave of this: soldiers sacrificing their lives for their brothers in arms.

    In any case, your discussin of the number of man is reasonable and thought-provoking. I even find it a bit anti-climactic, but that is very fitting, as we men have this nasty habit of ascribing too much importance to ourselves. The seduction of the lie is that we have or can achieve happiness, perfection, or any other of God’s qualities without God. But human experience clearly shows that the mist of the lie is easily swept away to reveal the dung lying in the dirt that we and this world are without God. The idol Self tries to achieve godhood by means of the idol Money, only to discover that Self becomes more and more enslaved. I think your interpretation is fittingly anti-climactic because instead of some really cool evil conspiracy involving numbers and power, we are merely left with the idea that man is created and is imperfect out of union with God. Don’t misunderstand me, that is a huge idea, it’s just seemingly unattractive from this world’s deluded perspective.

    I’d just like to address some criticism you have received, to the effect that you must be wrong because your conclusions do not match some translation of God’s word, or because God does not reveal truth or insight to people directly (anymore.) First of all, there is only one who knows and understands all–God!! Secondly, He works in any way He chooses, and His word is full of examples of Him doing things in ways that are contrary to all the “wisdom” of the people affeted by His actions. Thirdly, He created us for relationship with Him. Relationship implies communication. If we who acknowledge His lordship and who try to serve Him are in a relationship with Him, and if He asks us to pray without ceasing (which is talking to Him,) then I believe we can logically assume that He talks to us. Some might argue that He speaks to us only by means of His written word. Yet that same word states that God reveals wisdom to us, and that His word is in fact incomprehensible to us except by His revelation. That, my friends, is Him communicating to us! Next, I would argue that your reasoning has at least some element of logic to it. While we are indeed fools without God, He created us with minds to think. Even those who deny Him have glimmers of truth, which can come only from God, whether by creation or revelation. Finally, even if you are wrong, even if you are trying to be intentionally misleading, your thoughts are causing people to think about God. He is sovereign and all-powerful, and there is nothing that anyone can do or say that will stop Him from accomplishing anything He wishes to do.

    In any case, I believe you are honest in your search to understand and know God and His ways, and He is faithful to reveal Himself to those who seek Him. As incomprehensibly different as He may be, he chose to reveal Himself by making Himself one of us. I’m guessing He really, really wants us to know and understand Him! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!!

  69. astudent says:

    Blind Man,

    Thanks for the encouragement. You have the gift of encouragement and you use it well.

    I especially liked that you said more about our Heavenly Father than you said about me.

    You call yourself Blind Man, but it is obvious that you are no longer spiritually blind. You also know that all understanding that is worth understanding comes from God and it is not the efforts of man that reveal anything. Although if one doesn’t care enough to search he will not receive any understanding and then it would be a sin not to share what the Spirit has revealed.

    I am trying to reflect His goodness and glory and usually it is despite myself. I worry at times that my lack of tact offends some of my brothers. But I am not skilled in tact and I still must say what I believe the Spirit would have me say. Sometimes I am more like a bull in a china closet than a good Christian. It is encouraging to see that some understand my motives and intentions: just watch out for the bull! (Ha-ha, yes I know what everyone is thinking)

    When I read your comment and realized that you gave all of the credit for anything good that might come from my efforts I got that feeling of euphoria that comes from deep inside. Thanks for truth, and thanks for the effort, and thanks for the feeling that resulted from your effort. I believe that you touched the Spirit within me and that is where the wonderful feeling came from. Perhaps it is just a glimpse of the joy we will receive when we are raised to be with the Lord forever.

    You did truly praise God when you complimented me and I received the feeling to prove it. I only wish that I also had the gift of encouragement, so that I could cause the Spirit to release that same feeling of euphoria in you.

  70. Dadisi says:

    It is just impossible to not make mistakes! We all do. I fail so much that at times amazement of my inaptitude overwhelms me. When God showed me myself, at first I was in denial. That is what we do to protect ourselves. It’s automatic! The other me appeared in the person of prostitute. She was repulsive to my sensibilities. Everyday I think about how I see myself as oppose to the reality of the situation. I stink! There is no way around it. I’m not what I think I am; that was a humbling acknowledgement about me to myself. All of my wisdom and supposed goodness was as filthy rags. In ancient Hebrew culture a filthy rag was a reference to a woman’s used menstrual cloth. It was also a euphemism for a prostitute.

    Once while in church, I received a prophetic word from a visiting minister. He said that I had been tied to the docks but God was sending a storm to set me free. Of course, at first I didn’t really understand but one day I was reading the dictionary (a curious habit) and the word paradox caught my attention. Its Latin root entailed two words. Para means “beyond” and dox means “to think”. The word “dox” means “to think or a belief system”. Now, the prophecy made sense to me! I had been tied to a way of thinking or a particular belief system. Listen to this because that was not the end of it! The word “dox or doxy” also means prostitute or paramour. Can it get any clearer? The Middle English root of the word doxy is doll as in an idol. I was my own idol, totally self absorbed and self serving, a murderer within my heart.

    I am telling you this because it has been given to me to give. The treasure of a relationship with God is without measure. I can’t even wrap my mind around my respect of him. Believers are told to praise God but the word praise is also prize. God stands as the ultimate standard by which to measure everything that is. Instead of having the standard of a prostitute which is death walking, I have been given the opportunity to chose life. The choice is simple but the walk is hard. I am now being schooled, trained and taught in the ways of God. It is a journey from a condition of selfishness (Eros) to one of selflessness (Agape). To get to the father (farther side), I have to go through (Christ) crisis which is a denial of everything I am and believe to be true. There is no baggage allowed in the kingdom of God!

  71. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    Of course I agree with you: seems like I usually do.

    We both seem to have the same understanding and that should be no surprise as we both have gotten it from the same source. We are tied to a belief and not a belief system and I think that is one thing that you are saying. Correct me if that is not what you meant.

    It seems to me that we prize and praise God by living as Jesus did. That is to obey the two Royal Laws. The first we must do in our heart, but the second demands a very public display. We must do to others what we would have others do to us.

    I think it will become hard to share the excess that God gives us with others because we will be worried about tomorrow. These times are going to be a test for us as well as those who are not Christians and at the same time a great opportunity to display the character of the God within us.

    Well, after thinking a little more on the subject, we have to be careful that when we give it is not considered a gift from us, but a gift from God. The easiest way is to give to our particular Church and let them give in the name of the Lord. And make sure it is the true God that gets the glory: not the Church.

  72. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    As I walk with God, my greatest discovery has been that his image of me and my image of myself are not the same. During a study of Jacob and his encounter with an angel, I saw something that had previously gone unnoticed.

    Jacob wrestled with an angel (angle, perception) all night and after winning the struggle he commanded the being to bless him. In response, the Angel changed Jacob’s name. No longer shall you be deceiver, trickster, liar, said the Angel. From now on your name shall be Israel. Jacob was transform from not real (fake) to is real (genuine)! I didn’t make that up.

    A corrupted mindset is one that opposes God. I was once told “You can’t see the forest for the trees”. The trees were representative of ideals (idols) that I held near and dear to my heart. They were blocking my access to reality. I wanted to be real but God had to open my eyes!

  73. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    That is one of the things that I like about bloging. I haven’t considered that wrestling match for some time and your comment caused me to look at it again. Thanks!

    I agree with you when you say that Jacob was transformed to a real person when his name was changed. That is what happens to us when we are baptized into the Lord. We become a new person with a new last name (Christian).

    You use the term angel to describe the man that wrestled with Jacob, but it wasn’t just any messenger. It seems to me that it was Jesus. The person is said to be a man, but Jacob realized it was God and said so in verse 30. The NKJV even capitalizes the word man in verse 24.

    I see those verses as pointing to our struggles with God. God, though He could overpower us, will not. He will wrestle with us as long as the night lasts: when light comes to all of the earth He will no longer wrestle and those who have not overcome will be lost.

    The Man touched Jacob’s hip and crippled him and when we accept and understand the Word we are also crippled in a way. We can no longer fight against evil, because God does not and we should not fight against what God allows. Pray for enemies; not fight against them. That cripples the natural man in us. Our tendencies are to retaliate; not forgive. It also is a permanent injury to our nature and we will be crippled or changed forever. It is a perfect way to say this because if we try hard enough, even though we are crippled, we can still retaliate against our enemies. Sometimes it just slows us down, instead of stopping us.

    It is said that Jacob struggled with both man and God and so do we. We struggle with God until we give up and accept the fact that He is right and we struggle with man until we realize they do not understand and should be pitied instead of struggled with.

    We both got the same message from the verses. We just view them from a slightly different angle.

    I suppose that my angle comes from the belief that God would say the same thing to me that He would say to anyone if I were in the same condition as any man in the Bible. I find that I am, was, or will be in the same situation many times and the same advice often fits my plight and that reassures me.

  74. seeker says:

    This was so exciting. The bible is not as complicated as we think and the answers are right there before us. I agree that the number is indeed 6 and the other sixes are a repititon, just like the Holy’s are.

    I pretty much agree with you that knowing the answer to this riddle does not enlighten you further but just verifies what you have already studdied in previous books of the bible.

    One topic that i was looking for on your site and i was surpise to find it missing is one of the biggest topics i know of and that’s the Trinity. How comes you haven’t gone into that. I see from one of your comments you don’t beleive in it as you said you only beleive in on God and one Son or am i mistaken?

  75. astudent says:

    seeker,

    I certainly agree that the Bible is exciting and it is not complicated.

    Well, parts of it can seem confusing because we want to know everything, but God has not chosen to reveal everything until its time.

    The Trinity seems to be that which can not be understood. I say that because I have a hard time understanding it, but then perhaps God will make it perfectly clear soon.

    I have written about the Trinity twice (The Trinity as you have never heard it and THE TRINITY REVISITED). I believe they are worth reading just so you can see the Trinity from different view points. Perhaps God will give you another view and you can help the rest of us.

    The complete knowledge about the Holy Spirit seems to be one of those things that are very hard to grasp. We can only know what God wants us to know and I have a problem understanding the Holy Spirit. Perhaps it is because, though the Spirit is our personal Teacher, he does not speak of himself. (John 16:13 KJV) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”

    I used the KJV here because the NIV says it just a little different (John 16:13 NIV) “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” and it is different enough to change the meaning: at least to me. The KJV says the Spirit will not speak of himself and the NIV says that he will not speak on his own.

    Perhaps I should write a post on the Holy Spirit and confuse everyone as much as I am confused.

  76. wiseastrue says:

    the guy is right I believe! I am Angolan never been out of Africa but I believe I know almost all the answers about life I’ve been searching for. I’ve been a christian until 2009. I’ve read the bible during my teen years and I took 2 years to finish and I found out that the bible is written in codes and if you take it literally you are doommed. Now I believe in and only in things I see and feel. I will not wait to die to live forever. I am already living forever. Sex before marriage is not wrong, Jesus did not go to church on sundays and at the end of the day the beast is you

  77. astudent says:

    wiseastrue,

    I do not share your idea that sex before marriage is not wrong. I understand that you are young and therefore have a vested interest in believing what you do. I can not remember a verse that specifically states that it is wrong, but I view it something like getting drunk. I don’t think there is a verse that says ‘do not get drunk’, but there are often huge problems that stem from getting drunk. The same can be said for sex out of wedlock. More problems are created for the woman than the man. If she gets pregnant you can just walk away. Causing problems for others is not obeying the commandment to ‘Do to others as you would have them do to you’.

    Paul said if a person that is unwed cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. One who is having sex does not burn with passion, because they satisfy the desire, so it seems Paul is saying not to have sex outside of marriage.

    (1 Cor 6:16 NIV) Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”
    Other than money, what is the difference between sex with a prostitute or anyone else other than a spouse?

    I believe you haven’t really thought about what you believe. Have you ever seen a thought? Have you felt one? How about your mind? Your brain? Others feelings? Do you believe that I am real? Have you seen me? Felt me? Every one believes in things they have not seen. You don’t know what you are talking about.

    You have spent more time thinking about what you want than thinking about others. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others (1 Cor 10:24 NIV).

    Wiseastrue, you are neither wise nor true. You claim to have been a Christian, but look what the Bible says about you – (1 John 2:18 NIV) Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
    You are an antichrist and you have not been anointed by the Holy Spirit, so you do not know the truth.

    You could be anointed, but first you would have to admit sin instead of trying to justify it. I don’t mean admit it to me, but admit it to God and ask for salvation.

    I will agree with you when you say you are already living forever. Life is a permanent gift and everyone lives forever. Where do you want to spend your time after this physical part of life ends? Heaven or Hell?

  78. seeker says:

    Seeker: Thoes going to hell will not live forever, they will be distroyed in the lake of fire. Hell and death will be no more.

  79. astudent says:

    seeker,

    I hope that you are correct and no one has to suffer forever. You have raised many questions for me to think about and I thank you.

  80. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    This is a great conversation because this it is real life. I have been writing much about children lately and a deep compassion has arisen for them. Children do not nor can they discern what truth is and what it is not. Experience is one of the main sources used to make decisions. Without it you are just walking in the dark unless there is a guide or help.

    Everyone that is born into the world is a child of the world having the same character and belief system of the world. It is not until a person is born again or born out of the world that they can even begin to understand it. Until then agreement is the only option because there is nothing to compare. God and his truth is nonsense to those who have not been reborn because they are ruled by their physical senses. If it is not tangible using the taste, touch, smell, sight or hearing, it does not exist. God is foolishness to a person still embedded in the world.

    It is a ball (Baal) of confusion in which no one can see their way out unless they are lead. I encourage the seeker to continue to look for the answer and in time it will find him. Continue to seek, ask and knock if you truly want to know the truth. God is amazing; there is a season for all things.

    Dadisi

  81. astudent says:

    Seeker,

    I have thought about your comment and it seems to me that those who are thrown into Hell will not die as the world thinks of death. The world thinks life ends when a person dies and if you apply that definition of death to the unsaved it doesn’t seem to fit Scripture. I think the proper definition of death is “permanent separation”. The first death is permanent separation from the earth and everything in it and the second death is permanent separation from God. I do not think either death is the end of life.

    Those who have no Savior are thrown into Hell “where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” (Mark 9:48 NIV) If their worm isn’t destroyed by the fire it doesn’t seem to me that the person would be. However I know there are verses that say both body and soul will be destroyed in Hell.

    I think that the confusion arises when we take the description of Hell literally. There is a description of Hell hidden in Luke chapter 16 where it speaks of the rich man. Scripture clearly says the rich man was in Hell (16:23). It is not a place like we picture Hell and yet it still reflects the description Scripture gives as Hell. The rich man was alive and knew where he was; he was in torment and did not want his brothers to follow him. That is not how most view Hell.

    It seems to me that Hell is Hell because there is no hope of ever being saved. The fire is the knowledge that the person didn’t have to be there and they are reminded all the time of this. They could have had everything that those have who came to their senses and asked God to forgive them when it was possible. It is a place without God’s mercy and with no hope of it.

    (Rev 21:4 NIV) He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
    God is talking to His people here and for them there will be no more death, but that is not what He says to those who are not His people.

    (Rev 21:8 NIV) But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
    This is what He says to those who are not His people.

    Think about being thrown into a place with Satan and the false prophet and without God to help you: and to be there forever, with no hope of ever getting out! That would certainly be hell for a believer: at least for this one!

  82. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I certainly agree that children do not have the experience with which to reason with. That is why God says, “He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.” (Prov 13:24 NIV)

    It doesn’t take much experience to find out a paddling hurts and you don’t want any more of them. We impart our experience to the child when we discipline him or her. It is necessary until the child acquires enough experience to know right from wrong.

    The parent that doesn’t discipline their child proves Proverbs 13:24. They love the approval of man more than that of God. The man in this case is the child.

    I believe that a child reaches an age where they have enough experience to determine right from wrong. Those who commit murder and robbery know that it is wrong whether they have been born again or not. If they have not been born again they can not know Spiritual things, because they have no ears to hear, or eyes to see, but they do not need those spiritual entities to understand right and wrong.

    I agree when you encourage Seeker to look for the answer. I think we should look for all of the answers and I agree that in time we will find them.

    Well, I would say that God will give them to us. One of my friends once accused me of having to have everything exactly right: and he was exactly right!

    You are good with words. I think he used a word for someone that wants everything absolutely right. I don’t remember the word. Is there such a word?

  83. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    Never mind. I tried to Google it and I think he called me a common sense conservative. Which is more than one word. The only thing worse than my language skill is my memory!

  84. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    I am going to step out in defense of grown children. It is very difficult to have a conversation with someone who does not have common points of reference. Not everyone worships the same god so it would be safe to say there are different standards. Whatever god is given honor dictates the thought system and therefore the behavior of its adherents. There is a standard that says that murder is wrong in some cultures but it is not universal. The law of man has many components that can be overridden by higher moral laws given by particular deity or deities.

    We are all adults! No, we are not. There are many different levels of maturity in God and outside of God. A chrisian is a person who believes in a christ; the bible actually say that there will be (and has been) many christs. Many religious systems use the same terminology but are very different. I try not to take anything for granted. Assuming that I know has proven to be a huge mistake. Your right and wrong is not necessarily the same standard used by others.

    Dadisi

  85. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    We do not disagree often, but we have managed to find a way. I think healthy disagreement is helpful so I thank you for your thoughts.

    Scripture says (Rom 2:14 NIV) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

    All of the law comes from the two basic commands of God and that is “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Mat 22:37-40)

    If these requirements are written on the hearts of all Gentiles then they know it is wrong to murder even if another person or another government says it is legal.

    I knew what was wrong and what was right before I became a Christian. There has been more than one person that tried to convince me some sin that they were committing was justifiable and that it was OK for me to join with them, but God’s law was written on my heart and my conscience would not let me alone.

    I would say that we do all have a common point of reference. Well, I would say that the Bible says we do. My conscience is the same as any man’s and so we do have the same standard.

    Be careful that you do not start believing that everything is relative, which is what the world would have us believe.

  86. seeker says:

    AStudent and Dadisis,

    You both assumed that I am a man and I am flattered. I am a female.

    In regards to your responce AStudent I would like to start with the following quote:

    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (in other words whosoever don’t believe in him will perish)

    Romans: The wages of sin is death (not eternal torture but eternal death)No other hope of resurrection.

    The lake of fire is the second death. Ask yourself what the second death is and why hell and death are thrown in the lake of fire. Death and hell will be no more. Along with no more pain and suffering.

    Wouldn’t it be contradictory to throw hell into hell? God don’t waste time. Humans do.

    My quest has been to get to know God, because that is the only way you can love. You got to know someone in order to love them. In all the circumstances I read in the bible so far God destroys, he does not torture. Especially forever so knowing this I’ve given his hell theology a second glance. The Characteristics of the God of the old testament does not show him to be a torturer. He is a God of love. He would not have anyone burning for eternity. That is a waste of time and space. God is perfect he wouldn’t do something as incomplete as that.

    Whatsoever things are lovely and of good report.

    Don’t let Satan fool you. Do a search on the internet for either lake of fire or second death.

    This is on oe most popular quotes from Corinthians 15vs28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    I think this verse answers both Trinity and Hell.

    If hell still exist at this time what kind of God does that make God Almighty?

    If the Son and the father are one why is he only now going to be all in all?

    Female

  87. seeker says:

    Sorry about that I hit submit before editing my thoughts. lol.

    At the end after the Corinthian’s quote i was trying to say the following:

    If God is over all then he would be over hell too… Do you think that is part of Gods plan? Gods plan for man is Eden and it hasn’t changed. In the begining their was no hell. The end will be like the begining. Perfect. #7 Man and God All to all.. He wants to be All to all things. At the moment he is he not. Saton is all to most…then His Christ will take over and then hand it over to Him. Everything is thru the Christ. Without him there would be no hope for us. Christ is our link to God.

    I hope my giberish helps.

  88. seeker says:

    Wiseastrue,
    I use to wonder about whether or not to take the bible literally or not when i first started on my quest to read it.

    Thankfully i decided to take it as litteral. So when it said angels came down and knew women and begot giants i received the message as such.

    When i reached Job it also describes a creature that sounds similar to a dragon. Thats when i mashed brakes because all these years i’ve been told that this is a mythical creature. Do you know the other day i was watching Animal plannet and they had a whole documentary on draggons and how they may not be mythical creatures after all. It funny how the Holy Spirit works. Everytime i come up with a question and I seek I get an answer.

    The documentary on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uybcmYcQN5U

    There was also a couple more documentaries about Aliens/Gods and their influence on man. Another was noted about Giants. Gods words will always prove true in time…

  89. Dadisi says:

    Seeker,

    Welcome to the conversation! The word man actually comes from the plural men which means to think. We are all thinkers and that is what this blog is about. The bible can actually be interpreted millions of ways but it is spiritually discerned. To most it’s a riddle that needs a key to unlock it’s wealth of knowledge. That key is not a concordance! The Spirit of God has been given the assignment of leading believers into all truth. It is only by the Spirit of God that the bible can be interpreted correctly.

    Jesus told his students that unless he goes away the Holy Spirit would not come. There is transference of authority that takes place. Jesus in his death on the cross exits the physical world allowing the entrance of the Paraclete. Defined as another of the same kind, the Spirit of God in likened to a insurance policy called a dower. A dower is an endowment that a widow receives as a means of support after her husband dies.

    The same word used in a different way describes what a bride brings to her wedding according to ancient Jewish custom. Dower becomes a dowry. Jesus left the Gift of God to insure safe passage of of bride to a new beginning and when he returns Jesus will be seeking the same that was left to identify his bride. The people of God can always known by their Spirit.

  90. astudent says:

    seeker,

    Well, I have to laugh! If you knew men like I know myself you wouldn’t be at all flattered!

    I wouldn’t make the same assumption as you made after John 3:16. I would say those who believe in Jesus have everlasting life and those who do not have everlasting death. Everlasting life would be to be with God and everlasting death would be the second death or separation from God.

    (Rev 21:3-4 NIV) And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
    It seems to me that these verses are to and about believers and there will be no more separation from God for them. I do not think it is speaking about nonbelievers.

    You say God does not torture but sometimes what we would like to think about God is not accurate (Rev 20:10 NIV) And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Look at the lake of fire as a trash can and everything that is trash is chucked in it. As far as a waste of time and space, have you considered the universe? God can make time and space and use it for anything He wants. There are parts of the universe that no man will ever even see. There are no limits to either space or time for God. He doesn’t have to worry about waste at all.

    I would say that hell exists to prove God just. He said those who do not believe will be thrown into the lake of fire and He does say they will be tormented (tortured).

    (Rev 14:9-11 NIV) A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

    Yes, I do think hell is part of God’s plan and yes God is over hell.

    I hear well meaning Christians say God loves everybody, but that is not what the Bible says. (Rom 9:13 NIV) Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
    Though I have not thought much about it I think God loves those who love Him; not everyone.

    I have to admit that I would like you to be right as I do not want anyone tortured, but God is fair and just and above all thank God merciful. If we are going to cry for those who will not believe we must do it now, because after judgment we will not shed a tear!

  91. Steven Macchia says:

    You are absolutely right and have solve a missing piece for me brother. God has blessed you! You will be a witness for the Lord Jesus Christ!

  92. seeker says:

    Astudent, you nearly converted me as most people do… But your last paragraph has given me a renewed fire.

    God is love and God is just. How can it be just to torture someone for eternity? Please let me know what crime would have to be committed for someone to be tortured for all eternity. Also why would everyones justice be the same? Would someone in hell that only killed one person be tortured the same as Hitler who killed many (millions)?

    Also wouldn’t Satan have the most sin and why is he in hell getting the same punishment as humans.

    I admire your reasoning throughout this wordpress blog. We need to work with a blank slate when studying God. We have to leave those human phillosophies behind. There are instances when forever does not mean there is no end. Forever can mean a long time.

    Another thing. Alot of people are christians because they are scared into it because they don’t want to end up in hell for all of eternity. God wants us to want his soverignty. He doesn’t want to scare us into loving him and wanting his leadership. Thats why we are living now under our own leadership so we can see the mess we make of the Earth. This will be proven to all the angels (that didn’t fall), all the demonds, all the humans and Satan. There will be no more questioning of his authority. He will be all to all.

    If he left a hell of torture their would be more questions. Plus this eternal hell is not his character at all. But who am i to say…

    Also if there will be no more suffering when God takes over then why is there still a hell of torment? Isn’t that contraditory…?

    Anyway, you could be right I don’t know but it doens’t seem right when i search my heart. I hope you are wrong.

  93. Dadisi says:

    Seeker,

    According to the Norse tradition, Hel is a person. She is the goddess of the dead. What most people fail to realize or just choose to ignore is that everyone born into the physical sense world is born dead!

    They are subjects of the great goddess. Jesus in a conversation with Nicodemus explains the two births; by water people are born into world and by the Spirit of God they are reborn or born out of the physical world.

    One of the definitions of Hell is separation from God. Because of Adam, all men (thinkers) are under the rule of the family of fear headed by the great goddess but represented as a serpent. God is love and fear is his opponent or opposite. God Israel (is real) and fear is False Evidence Appearing Real.

  94. astudent says:

    seeker,

    Let me start my comments with your last thought and work backwards to you first.

    Those are all good questions and comments. I have had the same questions and like you I did not want to believe in hell. However hell is described in the Bible and no matter what we think it is, it is a place we do not want to go. When we begin to think as God would have us then we realize that we do not want anyone else to go there either.

    You read Revelations 21:4 (NIV) He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. and you think it means for everyone, but I think it is only speaking to God’s people. Satan’s followers will be placed with the god they wanted to serve. That seems fair and just to me because they got what they wanted.

    You are correct when you say “this eternal hell is not His character at all”. It is alien to Him! (Isa 28:21 NIV) The LORD will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim, he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon– to do his work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task. I didn’t bother to research what He did at Perazim, but at the Valley of Gibeon God threw large hailstones at the enemies of Israel and killed more with the hail than Israel did with their swords. Then He stopped the sun and moon, or time, until Israel extracted revenge on their enemies (Josh 10:11-14). Hell, judgment and revenge may be against the character of God, but when the conditions require it God is up to the task.

    There will be no more questions after judgment. (1 Cor 13:12 NIV) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. (1 Cor 13:8 NIV) Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

    Most people become Christians out of the fear of God. Fear can mean two things: 1.a. A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger. or 3. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power (the American Heritage Dictionary). (Psa 111:10 NIV) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise. (Prov 9:10 NIV) “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. It is only after we turn to God and He gives us the Holy Spirit can we begin to understand the character of God and then fear of God becomes extreme reverence or awe. That is the way it worked for me.

    I hope you are wrong when you say forever doesn’t always mean forever. When man says it that might be true, but when God says it I want to believe it means forever, because I want to live forever: and with Him. The word forever appears 290 times in the NIV and I believe it always means forever, however I must admit I did not check every one of them!

    I don’t believe Satan will face the same punishment as everyone else. Satan had higher aspirations than anyone in all history. He is driven by pride and will spend eternity being shown the fool that he is. To humiliate someone that is proud is stiff punishment for them and to allow someone to see God in person and then banish them would also be stiff punishment and to do so for all eternity would be almost unbearable.

    Everything that is corrupt must be completely destroyed before anything can be made pure. Otherwise the corrupt will taint the pure. God will completely destroy the earth with fire before He makes it anew. What ever is in the lake of fire is never burned up. It stays corrupted and therefore cannot be made pure. Those in hell will constantly reminded of their sin and that they can not receive forgiveness. The more sin one has committed the more there would be to be reminded of. The torment comes from within the person, because of the fire outside of him (or her). Hitler has many more sins to be reminded of than the person that only killed one man.

    We are saved by the water of baptism (Please – I know that is not all that saves us) and the rich man in Luke 16 wanted just a little water because he was in agony. It clearly says that the rich man was in hell and that he was in agony in the fire. I think that he wanted just a little mercy and forgiveness and that is why he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to just dip his finger in water and touch his tongue with it. If he could get someone to help even just a little there would be some hope for him: but there is no hope. He didn’t ask for the fire around him be extinguished, but that the water be applied to his tongue which is inside of him.

    As I think about this I know many say ‘how could God torture someone for eternity’ and I have asked the same question, but I don’t think that He does. I think the people themselves are responsible for their own torment. They spend eternity looking out of the pit at what they could have had. The rich man in Luke could see out of hell and knew in his heart that he had not treated Lazarus well. But even then he still viewed Lazarus as a servant!

    Now these are just thoughts that I have had and I doubt that I can defend them with the Bible, so don’t be too hard on me. It might be a good exercise to try, but I would concede even before I would start.

    What did I nearly convert you to?

  95. seeker says:

    ASTudent:

    You nearly convinced me into believing hell was everlasting.

    I think you may be confused with where i’m coming from. I believe in hell even though i’m not sure of its characteristics and what it is truly about. But I’m convinced revelation 20 speaks about the destruction of hell, death and Satan..and that Corinthians 15 all to all means just that. I will do some more research and get back to you. I do beleive God is just. i’ve only reached Jerimiah please forgive the ignorance of any other. I just like to read revelation from time to time.

    I have to say that your commentaries have enlighted me alot and it aids with my bible study..

  96. astudent says:

    seeker,

    It doesn’t really matter if hell is everlasting to us: does it? It is only our curiosity that makes it interesting.

    You may not realize it, but your comments help me with my studies as much as I aid you!
    Questions are all we need and yours, even if they seem as though they are answers, as mine almost always do, are very valuable to me.

    Please don’t stay away too long.

  97. seeker says:

    Astudent,

    Read Jude 7 about Sodom and Gomarah burning forever. Which does not mean it is currently burning. So here is an example in the bible when forever means something other than physically eternal….This forever is a spiritual burning destruction…which is what the lake of fire signifies.

    Also it makes a difference because it changes what we think about Gods character and who he really is..His command is to love him above all things…This sure make it easier cause it show how just he really is…

  98. seeker says:

    Either hell of eternal torture or Love God. I think not. This is not the choice he is asking of us…He is giving us the choice of eternal paradise (creation) under his soverignty or destruction (reverse creation).

  99. astudent says:

    seeker,

    Jude 1:7 doesn’t say Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever. The Bible says that they serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire: the same thing 2 Pet 2:6 says.

    When I examined the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah I thought it odd that in Gen 19:25 the Bible doesn’t say God destroyed the cities and killed the people, but it says He overthrew both the cities and the people. I said in my mind that the Bible says what God wants it to say and because it did not say that the people were killed then those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire would not be either.

    Having said that Luke does say they were destroyed (Luke 17:29 NIV) “But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” So I checked the definition of “destroy” 1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire. 2. To tear down or break up; demolish. (American Heritage Dictionary) It can mean to do away with, but not always.

    As I said I wish you were right, however I can not find a way to reconcile Revelations 14:11 (NIV) “And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” This must be after they are thrown into the lake of burning sulfur as they rest quite well in this world today.

    Because all sin is committed only against God, it is the right of God to choose the punishment for sin. So if God chooses to grant the wish of those who do not want to be with Him and yet not end their existence then who am I to say it is not right?

    It is not God that torments those in hell. They are not only responsible for their own destiny, but they torment themselves as they will go over and over every sin they have committed and realize they didn’t have to be where they are. Don’t blame God for their torment.

    As I see it everyone is already created, so that is not a choice. The choice is whether we want to live with Him or live without Him: Heaven or Hell.

    We both agree that God is just. Would it be completely fair to grant eternal peace to those who want Him to be their God and not grant eternal strife to those who refuse Him? To be just the punishment must fit the crime.

    Think about all of the work that God has preformed for man! He didn’t have to do anything, but He made everything for us! The universe and everything in it! He has gone as far as making galaxies that no man will ever even see. He made us and placed us where He wanted us and allowed us to live in His houses, eat His food, breath His air, and drink His water. We own nothing, God owns everything. All that we can give Him are thanks and praise; because that is all we really have and we couldn’t even do that without His help! All He asks is for us to recognize Him as God and treat others that He created as we want to be treated and He has given us a way to be with Him if we do so. At judgment God will only be granting the wish of those who do not want to live with Him. Would it be right to just destroy a man who wouldn’t even recognize God after all He has done? Would the punishment fit the crime?

  100. michaeld84 says:

    Beast Number
    The occult “number of the beast” associated in the Bible
    with the Antichrist. It has figured in many numerological
    studies. It is mentioned in Revelation 13:13: “Here
    is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the
    number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and
    his number is 666.”
    The beast number has several interesting properties
    which numerologists may find particularly interesting
    (Keith 1982-83). In particular, the beast number is
    equal to the sum of the squares of the first 7 PRIMES
    22 + 32 + 52 + 72 + 112 + 132 + 172 = 666, (1)
    satisfies the identity
    4(666) = 6 l 6.6,
    (2)
    where 4 is the T~TIENT FUNCTION, as well as the sum
    6.6
    x
    i = 666. (3)
    i=l
    The number 666 is a sum and difference of the first three
    6th POWERS,
    666 = l6 – 26 + 36 (4)
    (Keith). Another curious identity is that there are exactly
    two ways to insert “+” signs into the sequence
    123456789 to make the sum 666, and exactly one way
    for the sequence 987654321,
    666 = I+ 2 + 3 + 4 + 567 + 89 = 123 + 456 + 78 + 9
    (5)
    666 = 9 + 87 + 6 + 543 + 21 (6)
    (Keith). 666 is a REPDIGIT, and is also a TRIANGJJLAR
    NUMBER
    T6.6 = T36 = 666. (7)
    In fact, it is the largest REPDIGIT TRIANGULAR NUMBER
    (Bellew and Weger 1975-76). 666 is also a SMITH
    NUMBER. The first 144 DIGITS of 7r – 3, where x is PI,
    add to 666. In addition 144 = (6 + 6) x (6 + 6) (Blatner
    1997).
    A number of the form 2” which contains the digits of the
    beast number “666” is called an APOCALYPTIC NUMBER,
    and a number having 666 digits is called an APOCALYPSE
    NUMBER.
    see also APOCALYPSE NUMBER, APOCALYPTIC NUMBER,
    BIMONSTER, MONSTER GROUP
    References
    Bellew, D. W. and Weger, R. C. “Repdigit Triangular Numbers
    .” J. Recr. Math. 8, 96-97, 1975-76.
    Blatner, D. The Joy of Pi. New York: Walker, back jacket,
    1997.
    Cast ellanos, D . “The Ubiquitous r.” Math. Msg. 61, 153-
    154, 1988.
    Hardy, G. H. A Mathematician’s Apology, reprinted with a
    foreword by C. P. Snow. New York: Cambridge University
    Press, p* 96, 1993.
    Keith, M. “The Number of the Beast.” http://users.aol.
    com/s6sj7gt/mike666.htm.
    Keith, M. “The Number 666.” J. Recr. Math. 15, 85-87,
    1982-1983.

    Apocalypse Number
    A number having 666 DIGITS (where 666 is the BEAST
    NUMBER) is called an apocalypse number. The FIBONACCI
    NUMBER F3184 is an apocalypse number.
    see UZSO BEAST NUMBER,LEVIATHAN NUMBER
    1.251
    Cosine
    Gaussian
    Hamming
    Hanning
    References
    Pickover, C A. Keys to Infinity. New York: Wiley, pp. 97-
    102, 1995. ,
    Apocalyptic Number
    A number of the form 2” which contains the digits 666
    (the BEAST NUMBER) iscalled an APOCALYPTIC NUMBER.
    2157 is an apocalyptic number. The first few such
    powers are 157, 192, 218, 220, . . . (Sloane’s A007356).
    see UZSO APOCALYPSE NUMBER, LEVIATHAN NUMBER
    References
    Pickover, C. A. Keys to Infinity. New York: Wiley, pp. 97-
    102, 1995.
    Sloane, N. J+ A. Sequences A007356/M5405 in “An On-Line
    Version of the Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences.”
    Sloane, N. J. A, and Ploufle, S. Extended entry in The Encyclopedia
    of Integer Sequences. San Diego: Academic Press,
    1995.

  101. astudent says:

    michaeld84,

    Sorry about not answering right away.

    Maybe I just am missing something, but the first seven prime numbers are 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, &17. The squares of those numbers are 4, 9, 25, 49, 121, 169, & 289. The sum of those numbers is 666, but where did you get your string of numbers?

    Anyway though the examples that you cite are interesting they mean nothing spiritually. Pick almost any number and it is possible to find the same kind of oddities, though it would be difficult to find as many, because many have studied the number 666 since Revelations was written and most of the oddities of the number have been found.

    I personally think the reward is greater if one studies the number searching for a spiritual meaning.

  102. seeker says:

    Hello Astudent:

    Well I haven’t gotten my brain rapped around Micheald84′s comments yet, but while speaking of Micheal I have come to post a link of a compossition I found while searching on the topic of the Father and the Son. Also while reading revelations, Micheal seems to be doing what I expect Jesus to be doing… Anyway here is the link:

    http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/michael.htm

    Regards.

  103. astudent says:

    seeker,

    That is interesting, but look at Daniel 10:13. Michael and Jesus are two different beings.
    I would agree with much of what Mike says if I apply it to the Holy Spirit.

    The word angel means messenger and the Chef Messenger I think would be the Holy Spirit. He is the one that comes to anyone and everyone who accepts Jesus as their Lord and are baptized into the name of the Father, son, and Holy Spirit.

    Most of what Mike says is true if Michael is the Holy Spirit. He is divine, a prince (not the King of Kings), well I could go on point for point, but that would take the fun out of it for you. Just one other thing that seems confusing, Jesus will come with the voice of the archangel, but even we speak with the voice of the archangel when we speak of God, Jesus, and His plan of salvation. The Holy Spirit has become one with us and His voice is our voice. Well, sometimes our voice clouds His voice.

    Though I disagree with Mike I see that he has put a lot of time and effort in studying the Word and I like him for that.

  104. Adi Grant says:

    I agree completely actually the number 6 is the identification with man – in other words the minds identification and fabrication of man – as apposed to the spirit with you…….The snake satan is placed of the mind of the sphinx indicating any worldly system created by mans mind is the beast – there will be a world system that wants an identification mark to buy and sell because the key is control – thus the egyptian pyramid and the eye on the one dollar bill – a sign of the same world system that was and will come – the illuminate, freemasons etc all part of the same world system including churches because we have set up a man identification of christ who by his spirit lives inside us – not as a man to be made an idol of – He and the father are one in the Spirit they live inside us they will only live with man in the new earth – watch out read revelation again and see that this mind fabricated Jesus is not the same as the one they depict hanging on a cross – a sinful generation requires signs and wonders because the mind needs them.

  105. Joseph Lule says:

    Number of man

    This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it’s mans number. His number is 666.

    Consider this statement in Genesis.

    And God said Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…And God saw everything that he made and behold it was good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his which he had made.

    When man was created it was the body, soul and the spirit.

    The number of man is six that’s the body, soul and the spirit.

    And in an explanation that man has a body, soul and a spirit we have been asked to worship God in body, soul and spirit.
    And as God told the Israelites, “Hear O Israel: The Lord your God is one LORD. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with your soul and with all your strength.”

    And as God was saying we have to love him with all our body, soul and spirit as it is the complete man.

    And in another case when the Lord was talking to Ezekiel he said that “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them”
    Also in another verse he says “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you a heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.”

    Without a new heart what is happening really to man?

    First after the fall of man the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out of his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live for ever….after he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life ”

    In an explanation Paul tries to bring about the state of man after the fall when he says,

    So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

    We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

    As it is it is no longer myself who do it, but it is sin living in me, I know that nothing good lives in me, that is my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in my members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God- through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to Gods law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

    How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our conscience from acts that lead to death, so that we serve the living God.

    Indeed, when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature things required by law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law, since they show the requirements of law are written on their hearts their consciences also bearing witness and their thought s now accusing, now even defending them.

    Paul is saying that the conscience of man is still bearing witness of God but the Spirit clearly says that in latter times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teaching will come from through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

    And to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure, in fact, both their minds and conscience are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and infit for doing anything.

    In that time their conscience will be seared with iron suppressing the light that’s in them, their mind becoming a prisoner of sin, and by their acts committing evil thereby all these actions producing death. Who can rescue people from this death if not Jesus Christ our Lord?

    When man sears his conscience with iron and suppress the light in them, the soul, spirit, and mind becomes dark.

    In rebellion to the truth of God the spirit, soul and mind of man becomes darkness and this produces death.

    The number of man is death.

    Man has become death.

    Wages of Sin is Death

    Remember as John put it “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.”

    Wages of sin is death and as James puts it “but each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire is conceived, it gives birth to sin and when sin is full grown, gives birth to death”

    Sin at that time will be full grown in all people of the Kingdom of wickedness in the spirit, soul and mind that will give birth to death.

    That’s why John says, “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will lead him to life. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death”

    This was the Kingdom that was offered to Jesus. As described in the Gospels where it states that, “The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I will give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours”

    Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘worship the Lord your God and serve him only”

    All those who will acknowledge the way of life of wickedness will be rewarded with gifts, they will prosper and they in turn will worship the beast and its kingdom.

    Do not be astounded by the prosperity of the wicked.

    And that’s is why the third angel in the book of revelation says,
    “….If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives the mark on fore head or on the hand, he too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulphur in the presence of the Holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day and night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

    As proverbs says “A man who remains stiff necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed without remedy.”

    Repent or Die

  106. Joseph Lule says:

    Number of the Beast

    Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast.

    Let’s look at the word count usage in the bible.

    In King James it states in Genesis for Abraham “And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness”

    When Israelites provoked God to anger in the desert psalms says that Phinehas stood up and executed judgment and the plague was stayed. “And that was counted onto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore”

    Paul again says in Romans “what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

    In Psalmist he cries to God “Yea for thy sake are we killed all day long; we are counted as sheep for slaughter”

    Again in proverbs there is usage of the word counted “Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace is counted wise and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding”

    Again in Matthew when talking about Herod thoughts of John the Baptist he states “And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet”

    The mistake has been put that when the bible said count it meant one had to do a totaling number but I believe it says consider the number of man.

    I believe the word count does not mean doing a mathematical count but to saints have been asked to consider the number of the beast and it should be like this.

    Let him that has understanding consider the number of the beast.

  107. Joseph Lule says:

    Mark of the Beast

    And he also forced everyone, small, great, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a mark on his right hand or fore head so that none could buy or sell unless he had a mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    Let’s take a look at word mark.

    Take the story of Cain and Abel after Cain kills his brother Abel, Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be restless wanderer on the earth and whoever finds me will kill me”.
    But the Lord said to him, “Not so, if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.

    This is first usage of the word mark and how it shows how Cain was marked after killing Abel. Cain was the first one who received a mark that would separate him from other people.

    In another use of the word mark
    Jeremiah pronounces what the Lord says about Israel and how they had forsaken God and tells them that although they could wash themselves with soap yet there iniquity was marked before him. They could not wash it away.

    Also in another use of the word mark in the book of Romans Paul urges the Christians when he says that, “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrines which ye have learned and avoid them.”

    And as indicated below the sins of Israel had separated them from God as it says in Isaiah when the Lord says,
    “Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save nor his ear to dull to hear, but your iniquities have separated you from your God;
    Your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear, for your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt.
    Your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things.
    No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.”

    “Their cobwebs are useless for clothing, they cannot cover themselves with what they make, their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands.
    Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways”

    I believe that the word mark in the book of Revelation means being separated from God in that the beast forced everyone to be separated from God by acquiring the image of the evil one (a way of life), through his mind or his behavior.

    No one could buy or sell unless he was separated from God, in that a person had to subscribe to a certain type of life. A type of life that denied Christ and just the same way Governments treat a terrorist who subscribes to a certain idea, Christians subscribing to the life of Christ will be treated like terrorist. Because they will be viewed that they are threatening a certain type of life which is the image of wickedness.

  108. David says:

    Are you mentally ill?!

  109. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    I am getting quite late with my comments. I will attempt to change that in the future. I do apologize.
    I see that you study a lot and I agree with most of what you have said, but I can not come to the same conclusions that you do. Perhaps I just don’t understand how you reached those conclusions.
    You say the number of man is six, but then you only list three characteristics. Body, soul, and spirit are three, not six.
    Then you say the number of man is death. Which is it body, soul, and spirit, or death?
    You correctly say that the wages of sin is death and we all know that every man must die the first death, but not every man has to die the second death.
    As I understand the number of man we are given the Holy Spirit when we turn to God and are baptized (die to this world, buried with Jesus and raised with him). That is when a 6 has 1 added to it and that six is a new number which is the number of completeness or 7.
    You say “Christians subscribing to the life of Christ will be treated like terrorist, because they will be viewed that they are threatening a certain type of life which is the image of wickedness.”
    Jesus perfectly obeyed the second royal law which is “Do to others as you would have them do to you”. What possible terroristic action could result from obeying that rule? Who could be condemned for obeying it? If everyone practiced the second royal law wouldn’t there be world peace? Would there be any terrorism, or wars, or murder, or thievery, or any crime? You are right we do threaten an evil way of life and I now understand that you meant that the world will treat Christians as terrorist, not that God would treat Christians.
    Man may treat Christians as terrorist: or should I say ‘as terrorist should be treated’, but God certainly will not. God will treat terrorist as they deserve. Just as He will treat all men that do not obey the second royal law. Those who do not obey are destroying what God made.
    I am confident that God will treat Christians just the same way He treats His only son born directly through Him. Christians have become sons of God and no compassionate father would harm his own son. We may have to suffer many atrocities by the hand of man, but when this age is over we will see God and forever be His children.
    Every man has become separated from God because of his own sin, but those who admit that they are sinners and obey God and turn to Jesus are reunited with God and will never be separated again and the number of man will not be important at all. We will all understand it!
    It seems as though we agree on the important issues, just not on the number of man; which is of little importance when compared with the really important matters.

  110. Joseph Lule says:

    Thanks for your comment, and I thank God that we are in the same path.
    When God created man He created the spirit, the soul and body. The spirit is man, the soul is man, and the body is man. What I was driving at is that with the number of man being six; he must make a choice of either life or death (eternal life and eternal damnation). If he chooses life he will be one with Christ (life) that is he becomes complete, Christ like and acquires a number seven. If he chooses death he retains his number of six and becomes one with death and in completion of the number death takes over the soul, spirit and mind and the number becomes six ,six six. The soul being man is six, the body being man is six, and the spirit being man becomes six. He becomes one with death and he cannot be saved and that is why the bible says anyone who acquires that number will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.
    That is why in an explanation Paul tries to bring about the state of man after the fall when he says,
    “We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is it is no longer myself who do it, but it is sin living in me, I know that nothing good lives in me, that is my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in my members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God- through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to Gods law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our conscience from acts that lead to death, so that we serve the living God”.
    In rebellion to the truth of God the spirit, soul and mind of man, his act will lead to death (eternal damnation) and that is why the bible says the wages of sin is death (eternal damnation).

  111. Joseph Lule says:

    On terrorist what I meant was that I do not agree with what terrorist do and I believe that what they do is wrong. What I was trying to say is that Christians these days are considered as hardliners and fundamentalist who are opposed to a certain way life that has become common, as today we live in cultures that lure people into a spiritual stupor that gradually desensitizes people to true spiritual and moral values and Jesus warned us that the time would come when, because lawlessness abounds, the love of many in the church would grow cold (Matthew 24:12) and Paul that in this time people would be so perverse as to be without even natural affection (II Timothy 3:3).
    With this in mind I was saying that the Christians may be treated as enemies of the state and be treated “as terrorist should be treated” and just like you said “We may have to suffer many atrocities by the hand of man, but when this age is over we will see God and forever be His children.”

  112. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    I like your way of viewing 666, and I agree with your comments. Though I struggled with your first comments you were very clear with your last two comments.

  113. Joseph Lule says:

    Thanks,

    By the way i will give a quote by Sidique Wei, the head of a New York based advocacy group called United Africa Congress where he claims that

    “Evangelicals are demonising other religions in their effort to promote their values. it is another form of Jihad (holy war.” reacting to the work of evangelical missionaries.

    This is the world which we are living in.

  114. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    Well, I agree with Sidique Wei. If there is one true God as we claim, then all other religions are from the Devil. I do not agree that it is another form of a holy war. We are trying to get everyone to desert the army of Satan and live, where Satan is trying to make war and cause everyone to be killed. Big difference!
    The law of Christ is to carry each others burdens and if everyone practiced that there would be no war.
    But as you say this is the world in which we live.

  115. mike says:

    The original Greek says six hundred and sixty-six (chi-xi-stigma), not six 3 times meant for emphasis. The NIV is only one of many versions of the Bible, and not all have the number in print like that. In fact the KJV says six hundred three-score and six. It was left to the translator’s interpretation of the text. And the NIV is one of the translations of the Bible that uses someone’s interpretation of what it “should” say in English rather than the literal translation of the words. So you can’t really use an English Bible for trying to find some hidden mystery within the words, if there were to be any in any language.

  116. mike says:

    Also have you considered the possibility that 6 or 666 or whichever way you look at it was not the number of man yet? Perhaps it’s a prophecy that it will be, when all men are to be marked. Similar to a social security number, cattle that are electronically marked have a 9-digit number. (This can be easily done by RFID, I know there’s alot of crazy theories out about this already, but it could work, especially with the (in)visible RFID ink. RFID is used on nearly EVERYTHING already, including shipping crates, clothing, and even the newer Euros. It can receive its power through body heat, and it turns out the back of a hand and the forehead release an optimal amount of heat for creating an electric charge to power these. Or it can can be what’s called “passive” and only be activated to send out a signal by a scanner).

    All cattle in the United states begin with the number 840 (so it looks like 840-xxx-xxx), dogs have another 3 digit prefix and so-on and so-forth. Perhaps, the number for a man would be 666-xxx-xxx or even 6xx-6xx-6xx, whichever way works to keeps it identified as a man rather than a cow, dog or shirt. And presently there is a knack for man to continually mock the Bible. Perhaps when there is a mark of the beast they may make it a blatant mockery of the Bible, just due to human arrogance? And we have the Word of God at our fingertips telling us not to take the mark, isn’t that the only wisdom we need: God saying, “don’t do it”? But as history has shown, the masses will do it anyway.

  117. Drake says:

    I don’t know why we make the number of man so complicated. It is really very simple and is another example of God understanding science well before man did. It is something that no one could have understood before our present scientific age other than God.

    We know today that all life on earth is carbon based and that includes us. Even science fiction novels will sometimes refer to a man as a “carbon based unit” as opposed to a robot. So carbon is unique to our existence.

    If you look up the carbon atom in the Periodical Table of the Elements you will find that it is made up of 6 protons, 6 electrons, and 6 neutrons. The number 666 and we carry it around in our bodies.

    Without using the word “carbon” which had not yet been coined, God was able to to point out a very fundamental truth of our existence and simply pointed out that the number is truly ours.

    How the Beast will use this number is something else and I don’t pretend to know what he will do, but there can be no doubt that the number belongs to us and God knew that one day we would have the knowledge and wisdom to understand it.

  118. astudent says:

    mike,

    (Strong’s Concordance) 5516. chi xi stigma, khee xee stig’-ma; the H22d, H14th and an obsol. letter (G4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the H5th and H6th), used as numbers; denoting respectively H600, H60 and H6; H666 as a numeral:–six hundred threescore and six.

    To be truthful not being someone that speaks Greek I don’t get much out of the original Greek. However to translate the NIV there were over 100 scholars working directly from the best Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts.

    The translations of each book was assigned to a team of scholars. Then one of the Intermediate Editorial Committees revised the initial translation, with constant reference to the original the Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. The work then went to one of the General Editorial Committees, which checked it in detail and made another thorough revision. This revision in turn was carefully reviewed by the Committee on Bible Translation, which made further changes before releasing the final version. The entire Bible translation underwent three revisions by the best scholars of the day. It involved many thousands of hours of research and discussion regarding the meaning of the text and the precise way of translating it into English.

    Now, after all of this, those scholars chose 666 as a proper translation of the original Greek text. Though I mean no disrespect, I am going to accept their translation of 666 over yours. I am not even going to say that you are not correct. I am just playing the odds (100 to 1). A more complete description of the process can be found in the preface of a NIV Study Bible.

    Having said that, in the English language, it seems to me that the proper way to display a number is with numerals. Imagine writing out a math test!

    All of your ideas may well be true but there is just something about a mark that is visible to everyone that doesn’t seem right to me. It seems to say that the mark has the power to condemn.

    If the thirteenth chapter of Revelation is a timeline then anyone who would not worship the image of the first beast would have already been killed before the mark of the beast was required. It is not just a mark that is required, but a mark of those who worship the first beast.

    I certainly agree that if God says do not do it we shouldn’t and Scripture says that if anyone receives the mark they are doomed. I really hope that one has to worship Satan in their heart and it is not just a mark that someone can force other’s salvation to depend on. There may be a weak Christian that is so afraid of physical death that he or she would receive the mark and still not worship Satan. There may be some Christian that says Mohammed is a prophet of God in order to keep their head for a while without believing it in their heart. Would a Christian father condemn a son for such a thing? I would not.

    It just doesn’t seem to fit the mercy of God to condemn a person for a physical mark and it would be a different manner of conduct for God to allow Christians to be exposed to others by a mark. Christians have always been identified by their conduct and not by what they wear. There are some who claim to be Christians, but their conduct shows otherwise

  119. astudent says:

    Drake,

    I like your idea. God uses physical symbols to symbolize spiritual things and I suppose the opposite could be true, so man’s description of the basic building block of man could symbolize man! I think it funny that those who refuse to believe in God have chosen a symbol that implies He knew what He was talking about.

    I am not trying to complicate 666: just understand it. If I took your explanation of the number of man, then we have all received the mark of the beast and therefore all are doomed. There would have to be a way to remove the mark or Heaven would be void of any man.

    I prefer to view your physical description of the number of man, but still with the Spirit added to complete and change the number to 7. We are not meant to be just a carbon based being. We can be sure that Jesus was carbon based and yet he was saved.

  120. Drake says:

    astudent,

    Thanks for your reply. I didn’t mean to imply that we have the mark of the beast on us because our number is 666. Our number is 666 because that identifies the carbon atom which God used to base our earthly existence on. No other atom can be identified by that number. God knew from the beginning that the carbon atom has 6 electrons, 6 neutrons, and 6 protons so 666 naturally became our number. No other number fits so perfectly, but the number itself is not evil. How the beast will use it to mark people is the evil and we need to consider that also.

    Carl Sagan once said that God should have put some things in the Bible that would not be understood until science had progressed to it’s present point. I contend that He has and the reason He points out that 666 is our number is to our benefit these many years later. There are other instances of things being said in the Bible that could not be fully understood until now.

    God wrote the Bible for all generations, a very difficult task.

  121. Mark says:

    Have you considered that we have already been given the mark of the beast. Maybe we have been slowly manipulated to accept this number. Think about it, we all currently have a number, I didn’t get mine until I was 16 but today most new borns don’t leave the hospital without this number. You can’t work with out it, you need it to got to school, you need it for a credit card and so many other things. Your Social Security number is made up of 9 digits and could be set up as xxx-xxx-xxx or 333. So maybe we have half the number already…who knows.

  122. astudent says:

    Mark,

    It seems as though everyone is connecting our social security number with the number of man and they may be right. However the number is said to “be” the number of man and that to me indicates the number is already assigned to man.

    If the social security number would be the number of all men it would have to be a world wide number in order to include all men and even then it would not include those that died before this system was introduced.

    As for me, because I am old, my SS number only has two digits in the middle set.

    If I were assigning numbers to things I would probably assign the same number to money as to the name and number of the beast. No one today can live without money and money is said to be another master. That is a master other than God.

  123. veiltornin2 says:

    Astudent –

    I appreciate your reasonable attitude about your own perspective. There is always room for error in us all. Have you considered any timelines associated with the the mark and where we might be in the process? Just curious.

    Drake, I had never heard the carbon theory before, it’s interesting. It makes me want to rethink the idea of carbon footprints, cap and trade, etc. and if there is any meaning there. Right or wrong, it seems like carbon certainly in general will play into where we are headed. I have never considered Carl Sagan as a theological perspective; it’s probably because he says things like “God should have..”. I don’t consider second guessing God to be a good idea.

  124. astudent says:

    veiltornin2,

    Well, yes I have thought some about a time line. The number is said to be man’s number. If it is man’s number then it seems as though all of mankind would have the number, from Adam to the last man, because all are men (or women). The number is also the number of the beast and it seems to me that it would have always been the number of the beast. So it seems in context that both have always had the number.

    The verses say that the beast forces everyone to receive the mark, but if the number is the number of man then they already had the mark. Perhaps it is just not visible to others until they are forced to accept it.

    Verse 14:1 says 144,000 with the Lamb’s and the Father’s name written on their foreheads are standing with the Lamb and if they were ever men they would have had the number of man at one time.

    I can’t help but think that all men already have the number of man. It is symbolic that one’s thoughts originate in the forehead and what ever one does in this life is done with their hands. I think that the verses mean if you think as the beast thinks and do as the beast does you will receive a brand that will be visible to all when everything is finished.

    I will freely admit that at first it seems as though this only happens in the end times, but as I said if the number is man’s number then it is the number of all men. And the time line is from Adam to the end.

  125. Joseph Lule says:

    I agree with you astudent when you say “If it is man’s number then it seems as though all of mankind would have the number, from Adam to the last man, because all are men (or women)…………… The verses say that the beast forces everyone to receive the mark, but if the number is the number of man then they already had the mark. Perhaps it is just not visible to others until they are forced to accept it.”

    If you read the bible as John put it “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.” 1 John 3:4

    All of us were born in sin and as James puts it “but each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire is conceived, it gives birth to sin and when sin is full grown, gives birth to death” James 1: 14-15

    The beast is the son of lawlessness and when man in rebellion acknowledges the way of life of wickedness will make sin full grown and which will give birth to death just as the Devil is and this will tie with what you wrote “I think that the verses mean if you think as the beast thinks and do as the beast does you will receive a brand that will be visible to all when everything is finished.”

    At that time all Men will be like the Devil in thoughts and deeds and the brand will be visible to everybody as the Devil will be father of all mankind in rebellion against God.

    That is why the Bible tells us that we must repent and turn away from evil and be as Christ who is the image of God.

  126. Drake says:

    veiltornin2,

    Your comment about the influence of carbon in our present age is appropriate. It may be that the beast will use the hoopla about carbon emissions, carbon footprints, carbon credits, etc. to bring mankind under his control and in that sense he is using the number 666. I don’t think that carbon is the beast, but it may be something that he will use. We should watch it.

    We need to remember what God said in Genesis 8:22, “While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.” (KJV) So when they threaten us with devastation if we do not do what they want regarding carbon emissions, it is contrary to what God has promised for this world. God is in control of the earth and the beast knows that, but he wants to control the mind of man and will use any deception he can to do so.

  127. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    We are close to complete agreement. The only point that I see differently is when you say “at that time all men will be like the devil in thoughts and deeds”.

    Considering myself, I am a man and at one time I did think as the Devil thinks, and I did the things that the Devil does, but though he was my father then, I have turned to my real Father. I did not wait until I had no choice.

    As I have said I am no longer a 6, but I am a new being a 7. I was a 6 but when I received the 1, I became a 7 and that is my mark now.

    We are so close to complete agreement I believe we are only viewing Scripture from different points. Which is to say, I am not disagreeing with you, only trying to explain the view from my position.

  128. astudent says:

    Drake,

    Yes, I think you are right.

    It is so simple when we believe God. We know God is in control of the weather and there is nothing we can do that would change the normal pattern. The changes we see are only normal differences of temperature and that is where averages come from. Those who serve money from their hearts will use anything that is real, or anything they can imagine to acquire more of their god.

  129. Dadisi says:

    The sphere of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. No longer sexy, a six that is consumed with the physical sense world, I have become a seven (one separated unto God). I don’t want to stop there! Greater things are to come; eight is the new beginning. Seven is merely a bridge Jacob’s incredible ladder.

    While we stand astonished at the way, truth and the life there is more so much more. There is another side to discover which is beyond mans ability to think or comprehend. Jesus, the elder of many brothers and head priest of a royal priesthood was the first to open the matrix. The real world is awaiting true Israel (the circumcised of the heart). That’s exciting!

  130. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    I always have to stop and think about how you are thinking! My first reaction is not to agree with you and then when I understand what you are saying it becomes clear and I do agree.

    My first reaction this time is ‘What could be greater than to become one with the God of the universe?’ and my answer was “Nothing”. After I got past that I do agree with the rest of your comment.

    Scripture says, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”, but it is answered in the rest of the verse where it says, ”but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God”.

    I look at the greater things as being able to learn about God and I have that ability right now. It is not something I must wait for it to come later.

    I still do not consider it greater; only wonderful! Words mean different things to different people. There are many definitions for the word “greater” and I seem to always apply the 7th definition in the dictionary that I usually use and that is “Chief or principal”. Applying that definition I do not agree. Absolutely nothing can compare with the opportunity to become one with the One True God that can make a universe out of nothing!

    Having said that I certainly agree with your last statement, “The real world is awaiting, true Israel (the circumcised of the heart). That’s exciting!”.

  131. Dadisi says:

    Student,

    What could be more exciting than finding your true love? We jump up and down in celebration of something longed for that has been fulfilled. We find him, he tells us of the wonders of God and then he leaves! That’s what the students (disciples) experienced; it is what I experienced. In relationship with Jesus, there seems to be a period of courtship where he imparts himself, his dreams and desires into those who love him and then it stops which is very uncomfortable.

    Jesus told the students (disciples) that he would have to go away to prepare a place for them. There would be a time of seperation but be encourage because the Spirit of God (another of the same kind) is coming that will lead you into all truth. A dower is a part of a man’s real estate alloted by law to his widow for her lifetime. The man had to go away (die) for the wife to get it.

    Jesus also said,”if I don’t go away, the Holy Spirit will not come”. The dower can not be given to the widow without proof of death. The cross is a symbol of death; it is the beginning and it is an end. The other side of death is a new beginning. The number seven is a bridge that has a duality. It exists as a part of two worlds. Jesus is he who seperates and he who joins, a golden means.

    Dadisi

  132. astudent says:

    Dadisi,

    Sorry about taking so long to answer, but you made me think again and sometimes I am a bit slow to put my thoughts together. I had to search myself to see if I believed God had ever left me.

    I have never felt that God has or had left me! When I was baptized I received the Holy Spirit which is described as the mind of Christ. I understand it as the same mind that guided Jesus and it will, and has, guided me if, and when I let it.

    I have experienced times where I felt that I was not close to God, but when I came to my senses I had to admit that it was I who moved away.

    Jesus said that God would send a Counselor to teach us all things and He has never left me.

    I would say that Jesus gave me the ability to accept God by his sacrifice, but it is God Himself that separates and it is He who joins. God is the One that made the rule that sin should separate man and God, and it is God that made and worked the plan of salvation.
    Jesus only did what his Father told him. (John 5:19 & 30) Even the Spirit that God sent does not speak on his own. (John 16:13)

    I do not mean to minimize Jesus in anyway. He was the only perfect man that ever walked this earth, because he always did and said what his Father wanted. He also did not have to go to the cross; he chose to do so because that is what his Father wanted.

    It is hard to separate Jesus and God in ones mind. If Jesus only said and did what the Father told him, then he is and was the perfect representation of God. We are told to honor the Son as we honor the Father, but that does not make Jesus God and Jesus himself said he could do nothing by his self.

    Having said all of this, it is Jesus that God has granted the power to give life to anyone that he pleases. So, if you look at salvation from that angle only, then it is Jesus that separates and joins!

    Perhaps it is something like the tenth that Levi was credited with paying. (Heb 7:910 NIV) One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Jesus is credited as though he is God because God was always in his body; until he paid the price for our sins: which is separation from God.

    All of this is clear to me, but it is not clear as to how to convey it to others.

  133. Messianic Jewish says:

    The number of man is 666! The number of woman is 555. And the result of the union is 777. Also we should think of this as 6 + 60 + 600, and so forth, because that is the progression of the letters. Remember there are three phases: The “conception… See More” followed by the first manifestation in the womb (growth in the womb), the comes the final manifestation when the entity is born to live forever. Though we have a physical existence now, it is not our final and only life. We are physically alive, but spiritually living in the womb. Later we will be born-again from the spirit. Then we will grow and fulfill our reason for having Life.

    (6) VAU or WAW (PEG): {w,o,u} is the archetype of male fertilization that is required for creation.
    (60)SAMEKH (PROTECT): {s} The archetype of male fertility or sperm and the protective gonads.
    (600) Final MEM (WATER): {m} The cosmic state of fertility in Man, both in mind and body. The Father as the Conceiver of Eternal Life. Androgynous Man becomes a cosmic creator. Note the change of emphasis from 6 and 60.

  134. Dadisi says:

    Messianic Jew,

    The source from which you speak sounds of doctrine from the qabbala, a body of mystical teachings of rabbinical origin. I would agree that the number of man which is six plus the Spirit of God which is the most basic but essential of integers creates a complete being. Note on your keyboard that the six is capped. The cap represents limitation. Natural man lives in a condition of ignorance and thus wears a dunce cap also referred to as skotos.

    As a result of partaking of the forbidden, original man was transformed into a lesser type being. In the Book of Genesis, God addressed man as a wer. He said to Adam, “Wer are you”! The word wer is of Indo-European origins and means “a lower form of man or beastlike person”. The number of man is 6 but the mark of the beast is 666. Could Adam have been both man and beast?

  135. Michael says:

    I believe someone already touched on this theory, but I have some observations that I would like all of you evaluate and maybe expand on. The Bible says that 666 is the number of a man. The atomic number of 6 represents carbon which makes up the majority of man’s physical body. Carbon is also the major building block of DNA which makes man a unique creation. Carbon is also found in three forms which would explain why the number is 666 and not just 6. 666 is known by most as the “mark of the beast” and most of us agree the beast is the Anti-Christ. Most Christians believe in the Trinity of course God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Antithesis would be Satan, the Anti-Christ and the false prophet. I believe carbon is also relevant because as we all know about the fear mongering over “Carbon” emissions and global climate catastrophies that liberal politicians are using to push their “Green” agendas. It really isn’t all that far fetched to think that the current congress could pass laws restricting free trade, buying and selling goods (including food), obtaining a job, etc. without having this mark or some kind of identification that you are abiding by the laws regarding the reduction of “CARBON” emissions. Not to mention the fact that the “Green Agenda” involves totally revamping our agricultural system, not for the means of optimizing the growth of food, but protecting the environment instead of humanity. This is going to cause worldwide famine…..not global warming. This is already happening and it is a form of idolatry. Worshipping the planet earth, the environment, Nature, fertility, etc. Worshipping false Gods is definitely “Anti-Christ”! The Green movement could also explain Mystery Babylon the great whore. Ancient Babylonians took part in fertility cults to bring forth good crops and cooperation from nature in the way of enough sun and rain. If you know any environmentalists I’m sure you are aware just how dogmatic and religious they are. I have read many many well thought out observations which I think are relevant to what GOD is trying to convey! The nature of GOD is so complex that we can probably only hope to understand an inkling of what he will reveal to us some day. I feel like this is part of what he is warning us about, because with the advent of an almost paperless economic system already, the ever growing threat of Identity theft and almost total electronic financial transactions, the next logical step in the name of convenience and security is to receive some type of permanent implanted device or mark which would be similar to swiping a credit card showing financial status, carbon credits, etc. and you would not be able to buy, sell, eat, work without this form of allegiance to the Anti-Christ. I’m sure there are many more meanings and I would love to know all of your thoughts! God Bless you all and Praise Jesus!

  136. Drake says:

    I touched on this in January. The carbon atom can literally be identified by the number 666 since it is the only element containing 6 electrons, 6 protons, and 6 neutrons. Since all life on earth is carbon based including our own it can be said that the number is ours; we carry it around with us in our bodies.

    We’re not through hearing about the carbon atom either. Scientists are on the verge of introducing carbon nanotubes with Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) to replace barcodes on products that we buy. They theorize that it will be possible to put your groceries in bags and walk out of the store without stopping at the cash register. As you walk through the door, your purchases will be scanned by RFID readers and automatically deducted from your credit card or bank account. This means, of course, that your card, if not your body, must be labelled with an RFID carbon nanotube as well. You can read about it by googling RFID carbon nanotubes.

  137. astudent says:

    Michael,

    You are right when you said someone already touched on the theory. Drake brought it up in January. It is a fascinating concept. It would answer the question of the number being the same number as Satan’s. Well as you can see, I am a bit late to answer.

    However there are a few things that keep me from accepting it as the answer. There may be a different way of viewing it that would answer my arguments, so I would not discount it.

    One thing is that it is the second beast (Rev 13:11) that will force everyone to receive the mark, but if the mark is the number and it is the atomic number of carbon, then every man already had the mark and God gave it to us; not the second beast.

    Also since we all are made of carbon as long as we are alive we can not change. That can be argued if viewed from a spiritual stand point, but not from a physical one. What I mean is after we admit our faults to God and ask for salvation we are not physically changed. We are still carbon based and not a new person in that way.

    I do agree that all of the worry about “Carbon” emissions is from Satan. God has told us that worry is a sin. He has made everything and still watches over all. Would He allow man to destroy everything before the end that He will bring about?

    I think that along with the mark one will have to declare that the God of the Bible is not the one true God. I do not think God would give the power to condemn someone else, but only to the person them self.

    Islam is coming with their god of death and when they are in control, if you do not swear Allah is the one true God then, if they do not kill you right then, they will not allow you to buy or sell.

    The one true God is a God of love, not death. If Allah were God then he would already know who worships him and if he wanted them murdered he would have the power to do it himself. God is the opposite of a god of death. He does not kill even His enemies. Every one will live forever. Those who want to live with God will and those who do not want to live with God will not, but they will live forever.

    Sorry, I got a little off the subject, but actually everything fits together.

    Just as Drake seems, I am leaning toward an implanted chip, but also along with a mandatory spiritual oath.

  138. Drake says:

    I think I need to clarify myself a little. I don’t think that we already have the mark of the beast. The Bible almost parenthetically refers to 666 as the number of man. It’s incidental if not coincidental that the number of the beast’s name is the same as man’s number.

    To me it’s as though God threw something in that He knew people would not understand (“Here is wisdom, let he who has insight” NIV. or “understanding” KJV) until hundreds of years later when science put together the knowledge of the elements. God knew how He created man and that, one day, we would know the significance of the carbon atom to life on this planet. I just think it’s marvelous that He put things in there for us to understand today.

    Your thoughts about the use the beast makes of the number may all still apply. As time progresses we should understand even more.

  139. Callen says:

    WOW, It can be totally seen clearly by your research, thanks, that meant a great deal to me, im sure G-d riddled that part for a reason _ as it is a pearl not to be trampled on. Many beleive the mark will be physical, but that also will be a fake, a natural substanced whatever to keep you thinking in along the coarse of this world naturally and no notice the spiritual application, as all worldly things are blinding. And thats just what our enemy wants _ Us not believing the spiritual realm exists, just science. well a big suprise is comming there way, we should pray for more 6 to 7 transformations.

  140. astudent says:

    Drake,

    Well, the Spirit really leapt inside me when I read that something in the Bible could be incidental! I do not believe that anything in the Bible is incidental (1. happening or likely to happen in an unplanned or subordinate conjunction with something else. 2. incurred casually and in addition to the regular or main amount:)

    Perhaps it is just an opinion of mine, but I do not see how I could believe the entire Bible if I thought something in it was unplanned.

    I do not believe we can understand how God has made everything or how He knows everything, but the Bible is clear that we can understand His word. Well, it is clear to me anyway. (1 Cor. 2:7-12)

    I think that you are correct when you say “One day we would know the significance of the carbon atom to life on this planet” and we will, after the amazement subsides, have a good laugh about it.

    I don’t think we will have to wait very long for the answers!

    BTW, thanks for staying with the study. You have always raised good points and we all need that. Well, we all like that! I do anyway!

  141. astudent says:

    Callen,

    Welcome to the study.

    I agree with you when you say God riddled that for a reason.

    As I think about a mark that man can see that would determine if someone was of Satan or of God, I do not believe it would be possible. Only God knows what is in a man’s heart. A Muslim may demand that someone recite, “Allah is God”, but he cannot make anyone really believe it.

    I pray that I will never be put in that situation. I kind of like my head joined to my body.

    Praying for more to come to their senses and turn to God is certainly a good prayer. It is the desire of God also. (Isa 45:22, Ezek 18:23&32,)

  142. Drake says:

    astudent,

    Incidental was not a good word to choose. It was not an unplanned statement on God’s part. It just seems to me that He included it as subordinate to the main thing He was saying. The important thing is not the number, but what the beast does with the number. And the fact that it is man’s number was passed along for us to understand in this generation. Many previous generations could not have understood it. God implies this when He appeals to our wisdom and insight in Rev. 13:18.

    I think there are other instances in the Bible where God’s prescient knowledge are revealed. The Word of God was written for all generations. Can you imagine what a difficult task that is? Only God could do it.

  143. astudent says:

    Drake,

    Sorry to be such a stickler. I don’t believe we can really deduce much of anything about God’s Word. I see it as thinking with the Spirit for a long time and then He finally gives us the answers.
    I agree with you statement about the Bible being written for all generations. Isn’t it great that nothing is too hard for our Father?

  144. 2Tim2:15 says:

    If a man, who is a six, receives God and becomes one with him, that man becomes complete, or becomes a seven: a new number! That person is no longer a six![love how you put this, I never thought of it that way!] This person is now a new creature.
    2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” I realize this is an old post, but I just want you to know that I agree with the number of the beast. Funny how the bible tells the answer but many just don’t read it.
    Jude 1:10 KJV
    “But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute BEASTS, in those things they corrupt themselves.” This is not the only one. I just want to share with you this sight as a seeker of the truth. I thank the Father for his grace and for the revealing of his Son that He has shown. Please check this sight out may it help you with your spiritual journey. http://www.bible-truths.com

  145. astudent says:

    2Tim2:15,

    Thanks for the comments. I have read Mr. Smith before and though he is interesting I found him even more judgmental than me. I can hear you laughing!

  146. andyze101 says:

    Hi astudent. I just started looking for the number of the beast yesterday. Your answer sounds good. IDK, how helps but it makes sense. I’m not sure why Drake would say something was unplanned that is wrong. Everything is planned, make no mistake. I have been thinking about what is going on, much lately. With the blood of the earth spilling into a third of the sea right now. I have come to the same conclusion as you with the muslim religion. It is the only religion which I know of that discredits Jesus and Christianity completely by stating Jesus didn’t die on the cross. The quaran states that a lookalike died on the cross, which means that all gentiles are damned. Anyway, thank you for your insight :-)

  147. andyze101 says:

    Opps, I’m sorry Drake I misread what you had written. I just looked at it again, my apologies.

  148. andyze101 says:

    You know what just occurred to me. I was pondering both views yours astudent and the 6 electrons, 6 protons, and 6 neutrons, do you two realize your saying the same thing? Both of you are agreeing that this person, whoever he is, has always been, is, and always will be nothing more than human.

  149. andyze101 says:

    There is only one flaw I see astudent. At the end of your page you state the only requirement for the chip is the denial of the God of Abraham. I think it denial of Jesus. Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. They don’t believe that Jesus was the messiah.

  150. astudent says:

    andyze101,

    Well, actually the Koran does not deny Jesus. It uses the name Isa. I can picture Satan standing before God and saying ‘I didn’t write that Jesus wasn’t crucified, I said Isa wasn’t’.

    The Koran claims Allah is God, but the name Allah is not in the Bible. The name of God is LORD. Muslims do not know the God of Abraham, because the God of Abraham is the LORD. Everyone needs a Savior, but Islam has none. Pity the followers of Islam.

    Islam is a religion of death, but Christianity is a religion of life.

    Yes, I do understand that Drake and I are saying the same thing. We are just looking at it from different angles or perspectives. I find insight in Drakes way of seeing.

    Sorry about taking so long to comment, but the only way I had to acquire the Web was an iphone and I don’t have the patience to use it to comment.

  151. Seeker says:

    Hello astudent. I see that you mentioned Gods name is LORD. Didn’t he say that His name was Yaweh or Jehovah?

  152. astudent says:

    seeker,

    Well, the word for the name of God doesn’t seem to actually be the name of God (If that makes any sense).
    The word most used in English translations is LORD, but some use Jehovah.
    Jehovah means 1.incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible: ineffable joy. 2.not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable.
    There seems to be many names of God, but as I see it, no one can know the Name.
    If you look at “Jehovah” in the Wikipedia, free encyclopedia it seems that if one would know the Name they couldn’t tell anyone else, because it is not pronounceable.
    Ha, it is something like astudent is a word for my name, which actually is …… . …..

  153. andyze101 says:

    Well, ….. . ….. :-) it seems to me to be just a name. I mean Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, Brahman, Pangu, etc… It just seems trivial to worry about the name. If you read Col 2:18-23 “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.” This passage says to me that perhaps we all have the same God, but some decided to worship the angels as well (god of sun, wind, fire, etc…) They just haven’t learned about Jesus. The only way I can see one as a threat would be if say they were to make Jesus into anything other than the Messiah. Hmm, wonder who does that? I guess my point is, perhaps we all have the same God and just don’t know it yet.

  154. astudent says:

    Andyze101,

    Wellllll, any proper name identifies someone. So any name of God, or a word that might mean the true God’s name, identifies the real and true God. Those names are found in the Bible and no where else.

    Allah, Brahman, Pangu, and etc are not found in the Bible. They refer to gods that are false gods.

    Just to demonstrate, Allah is a god that says that Jesus was not crucified. I know that the Koran uses the name “Isa”, but anyone can see it means Jesus. The Koran also says those who do not believe in Allah as the one true God, should be killed. Also it is acceptable to lie in order to further the cause of Islam and that is world domination (or damnation).

    The God of the Bible says Jesus was crucified, He wants all to be saved, it is not right to kill anyone, because everyone is made in the image of God; and one shouldn’t bear false witness (lie).

    The true God is a God of love. So much so that he is described as love (1 John 4:8 & 4:16).

    After you think about this, and you listen to the Spirit that is in you, would you call God Allah?

    I do agree that there is only one God and He is everyone’s God.

    There are many names that God is called, but Allah, Brahman, Pangu, etc are not God.

    I agree that we all have the same God and just don’t know it yet, but to call God Allah, or Allah God, is something like calling Mother Teresa “Hitler”. On second thought it is infinitely worse.

  155. andyze101 says:

    Okay, by that logic if Isa is Jesus and everyone knows it as being “understood”, then couldn’t Allah be “understood” as God. I see what you are saying about the Bible telling not to kill, and the Koran telling to kill, I’m not sure it says to kill everyone who doesn’t believe in Allah as the one true god. I think you are mistaken about that, I think they only teach violence as self preservation, I am not sure, but that is my understanding. I will try and look it up. I know that Jesus is God. I am not trying to discredit you. I am asking this for my own peace of mind.

  156. Seeker says:

    Well i was going to reply to andyze101 but astudent you did a good job of that. Thanks.

    Its important to know who you are talking about. The devil seeks to confuse as you can see with the name change from Jesus to Isa.

    It says in the bible not to use his name invain. When you have a realtionship with someone you call them by their name…I’m sure you are not with your wife calling her women, but her name…You love her.

  157. andyze101 says:

    Okay Seeker, but it doesn’t make sense that we can just assume that when they say Isa they are talking about Jesus, however, when they call God, Allah, who BTW IS the God of Abraham and Moses, (same as the Bible), you immediately discredit them. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

  158. andyze101 says:

    I occurs to me that either Isa is Jesus and Allah is God, or Isa isn’t Jesus and Allah isn’t God. If you look at the facts neither one Isa or Allah match the descriptions of the Bible for Jesus or God. You can’t say, well Isa is Jesus because I say so and Allah isn’t because I say. What is your reasoning here for the difference?

  159. astudent says:

    Andyze101,

    Please do not think that either of us is trying to discredit you personally. It is only the idea that Isa is Jesus and Allah is God that we do not accept. Whichever one is God can accept anything said about Him, by anyone who is trying to find truth, without condemning that person, or that God is not merciful, and both the Koran and the Bible say God is merciful.

    It is only those who do not know Jesus that accept the Isa of the Koran as Jesus. Those that know Jesus understand that he was crucified, or sacrificed for the sin of anyone that will admit they are a sinner and desperately need a Savior. Once anyone reaches that point the rest is almost automatic. We ask God for that Savior and are baptized into Jesus and God Gives us the Holy Spirit to teach us even the deep things of God. Isa is not that Savior, because the book that names Isa states that he was not crucified (The Koran – The Women [4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.)

    If one Book says a person was crucified and another book says he was not, then either the book is wrong or the books are not speaking about the same person. The question of whether or not Allah is God faces the same test. If one Book says God had a Son and another says He did not then one book and one God is a counterfeit.
    The Koran – The Women [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
    The Bible (Mat 3:17 NIV) And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
    (Mat 17:5 NIV) While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
    (Mark 9:7 NIV) Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
    (Luke 9:35 NIV) A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
    (2 Pet 1:16&17 NIV) We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
    (John 1:34 NIV) I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”
    (John 1:49 NIV) Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.”
    (John 3:16&17 NIV) “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    The Christian religion is the only one that teaches men they need a Savior. All other religions teach some form of work that is required or God just chooses and man has no say in the matter. Consider what could a man give to God or someone that God loves, that could buy his salvation. If God made everything out of his own possessions and with His own time and effort, then what belongs to anyone? Doesn’t it all belong to God?

    If I welcomed you into my home and you wanted to give me a gift, would you pick up my wallet and offer me money from it? It should be obvious that even if you offered me all of the money that was in my wallet it would not win my friendship. I would think you were rather naive for the effort. Isn’t it the same scenario when we try to buy our Salvation with God’s property? Can you see that it is not possible? The Koran has no Savior so the followers must depend on buying their salvation or the whim of a god that would choose one man over another.

    Both the Koran and the Bible are on the web, examine them for yourself and determine which one is true.

  160. andyze101 says:

    astudent,
    Thank you for the well thought out reply. You worked on it for a while and I respect that very much. I have no doubt that the Bible and the New Testament are correct. I apologize if I sounded frustrated in my remarks toward yourself and seeker. Once again I am sorry.
    So what I am seeing here is that the Muslims are interpreting the Qu’ran incorrectly. While the Qu’ran appears to have the same God, it is only written to look that way. While the Qu’ran appears to be talking about the same Jesus, it is not. Neither are the same. It is only written to look that way. You had written me a comment earlier, “I can picture satan standing before God saying, ‘I didn’t say Jesus wasn’t crucified I said Isa wasn’t’ “.
    But then you said anyone can see Isa means Jesus. Which is true, but it only appears that way, correct. Isa does NOT mean Jesus. Just like Allah does NOT mean God.
    Ha, satan is quite the crafty one isn’t he. I think we are on the same page again. I’m sorry you had to write such a lenghty comment to set me straight.
    I feel that the time to watch is upon us, and I believe God is telling me that the Muslims must be saved if at all possible along with everyone else. I just can’t for the life of me figure out how to do that. Understanding this is certainly a step in the right direction.
    I just want you to know I am a Christian and NOTHING can stand in the way of that. I just need to have my facts straight. Thanks again.

  161. astudent says:

    Andyze101,

    You have nothing to apologize for. Everyone gets frustrated, including me. This is a Bible study for those who do not have all of the answers (that would be everyone that will admit it). Questions like yours cause everyone to think about them and I, for one am challenged to answer from what I have learned, or what I think I know anyway.

    Make no mistake, if you understand better from an interchange of thought on this blog it came from the Spirit, either through a believer like seeker or some other student.

    You see Islam clearly now and I think many others do also. You are right to want all Muslims to turn to the true and loving God. That was the lesson from the book of Jonah. They do not know their left hand from their right.

    We all need to ‘get our facts straight’ and that is why I started this blog. I mean I need to get my facts straight and a good question causes me to think with the guidance of the Spirit and the answer becomes clear, or more clear to me and I hope to others also. I reread some of my comments and I know it is not me that wrote them, but the Spirit within. However some of them it is obvious came from me and I apologize for them.

    I thank you for the question as it not only helped me, but also others. Don’t hesitate to bring up anything that seems wrong with anyone’s understanding. Everything should be considered no matter how many Christians will disagree with it. We must find truth from and through the Spirit.

    We are children and therefore we act as children. We hurt each others feelings, but the error is in others. You can not hurt my feelings, because I know for sure that I do not know much. If everyone would just accept that they are not the One with all of the answers and that some of what every man thinks he knows for sure could be wrong, we would be free to learn.

    (1 Cor 8:2 NIV) The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.

  162. andyze101 says:

    Just a heads up. I have been on youtube Christian videos lately, reading the forums. There are a lot of “atheists” who spend all day bashing Christians on there. So I started to debate back at them. Everytime I started winning then suddenly all my “Christian friends” began to tell me to stop because Jesus doesn’t want me debating. This got me paranoid. I started watching carefully what was happening and came to find out these “Christian” friends of mine are with the “atheists”. They argue back and forth all day so the atheists can bring up points, like, In the Bible God destroys babies. Then the “Christian” will try to defend God, but inevitable lose every time after a few hours of this. So it makes the Bible seem really bad. They do this constantly all over the forums. The fake Christians are extremely knowledgable about the Bible and can quote scripture all day long. It’s very hard to tell them apart, but they do slip up. So when I went to one in particular today I realized there was a Muslim on there trying to convert Christians. He was using the exact same argument as the “atheists”, the Bible doesn’t make sense. However, he would add, but the qu’ran does. He sent me a video which I watched. The muslim in it said the same thing as well. Then it dawned on me, these so-called “atheists” and “Christians” are muslims. I think, and bear with me here, Stage 1(discredit our God and the Bible), Stage 2,(Bring in Islam and the qu’ran). Now obviously I’m speculating here, but I know for a fact the atheists and the Christians are together. I also know the Chinese government puts all sorts of people on forums (sleepers if you will) to spread propaganda on the net. I believe that is what is happening here. I know it sounds crazy and its very hard to tell and when I called them on it, most wouldn’t admit it and called me crazy, but I see it for what it is with the help of the Holy Spirit. Most of them come from Canada and some have had their account for a couple years so this is a planned movement. I followed one back to this website http://www.youtube.com/user/khalifahklothing
    He is from Canada as well. Now I know this is crazy, but like I said I know for a FACT their are fake Christians all over the forums who have been there and they are there to back up these atheists and slander Christianity via the atheists. Also to silence the rebellious Christians. I’m speculating at this point about the whole muslim thing, but it makes sense. Now astudent I know the Spirit is with you, go on to one of the youtube videos with a lot hits, a Christian one like “Our God is an Awesome God” or such and find some atheist who bashed a Christian within the last few hours. See if they will bite. Then pitch them a good argument back at whatever their point against Christianity is. Go back and forth for a while and watch what happens. I may take a couple of days to figure out. But I guarantee you will see it. I try exposing them but everyone says I’m crazy.

  163. andyze101 says:

    MrPotatoFamine, JERIOK, soundofreason1, jacorn444, MegaBarbieDoll1, mortalcottonslasher1, RonJeremy69, Sarah03ful, Btoakley, ViolentZuchini
    IRAsupporter, yeooihari, yeewooihari, honesthonestgirl, netta2l58, 32Iroomi321
    fIetzy44, arnagee590 (r+n rather than m), amageeS90, daednc22446 (Richard Dawkins impersonator), muIhollanddose, fdi15O, Y0UMADAFAKA, blessings18, CecilTheSeaMonster, JERI0K, DoctorAlterman, DataSecurityExperts, partlyshady, ComeHomeCatholics, apple1236349, cman271, Hero0fChrist, MrCelticKK, MrCeltyeckk, mikeolatunji, ritamille1, mulakify, silencesoloud12
    Sorry to put all this on your forum, but I wanted to warn you of what I’m seeing. These are only a few of the names to look for there is an endless supply, they are everywhere. Some of these names are “Christians” some are “Atheists”. I know Sarah03ful is really good at acting like a good Christian.

  164. astudent says:

    andyze101,
    Take a deep breath and let it out slowly.
    Now let’s look at all of this from a different angle. First though, I can’t examine utube right now, because I have no high speed service at this location, I will check it out though and soon.
    I do not doubt you when you cite conspiracy. Some will not hear any conspiracy theories at all, but history is replete with conspiracy. One does not tell enemies what is planed against them so of course Satan is conspiring against Christians.
    Those who deny God’s Son are called antichrists and all Muslims deny Christ so they are the enemy of both God and His Son. It is only logical that they would plan and execute attempts to destroy Christians. I’ll probably make a bunch of atheists mad, but they are just being used by the Muslims and are just to dumb to see it. If and when Muslims gain power and control atheist’s heads will roll the same as Christians will.
    Now take another deep breath and realize that God knows their schemes and He is not stopping them. They think they are doing God’s will by destroying those that God made!
    I don’t know about you, but if I made something and someone else came along and destroyed it I would not be pleased and I am sure God isn’t.
    To be as clear as I can, God would not give the authority to kill someone because they do not believe in Him. No man really knows what is in another mans heart so no man really knows what another believes. Also no man knows the future, so no man knows if the other person will turn to God later.
    That’s right take another deep breath. I don’t believe we are supposed to fight anyone. If God wanted it stopped right now, He would do so.
    God says, (Mat 18:7 NIV) “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!” Notice He said “such things “must” come”. Sin is a result of our free will and it must come.
    We are not great warriors, but only deserters. We have deserted Satan and ran to God for safety. Our job is to try to get the others to examine themselves and realize that God wants us to live in peace as much as it is up to us. We should be trying to get others to desert.
    I have traded comments with both atheist and Muslims and when you back them into a corner they quit answering. They do not want truth. If they wanted truth they would not conspire against us. One can not convince someone that refuses to truthfully examine what is said.
    I have to admit that Satan is slick. If you try to get a Muslim to examine their god they claim you are insulting him and they will try to kill you! That certainly limits truth. The true God will prevail when examined in any way and is not insulted by any honest question, because He is God, and God is love.
    Now, just one more deep breath. You might really need this one. The Muslims are correct when they say “The Bible doesn’t make sense”. By that I mean it doesn’t make sense to them. They can not understand it!
    (Mat 13:13-16 NIV) This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
    You see they must want truth and then God will grant it and along with truth He will heal them. They do not want God. They want power and their hearts are so calloused that they will kill to get it. They use their religion to accomplish their goals and God is not really considered.
    They are like the people of Nineveh that God sent Jonah to preach to. They can not tell their right hand from their left. However, God cares about them and we should too.

  165. andyze101 says:

    Wow, I didn’t actually think you would listen, but you already seem to know. I guess I sound like I am freaking out, however, I’m fine. I have figured out that God’s will is for Revelations to take place and He has somehow been using Christians for that purpose for a long time. It kind of stinks that, (well I have a suspicion), were going to be here for it. Well, you may not, God willing you, my friend, will be raptured. I’m pretty sure I will stay behind as I forgot my oil :-) Oh well. God is with me and by my faith I stand, by my faith I will die.
    God Bless.

  166. astudent says:

    andyze101,
    I am no different from you. I have the same Spirit as you and if I say anything that might help you it really is the Spirit that is speaking to you.
    If you will listen to the Spirit within then you have all the oil you need.
    I am leaning toward rapture, as all true Christians have the Spirit and I do not think God will leave anyone that is part of Himself.
    We will see!

  167. Rev. Gary T. Tidwell says:

    Dear Astudent,

    I appreciate the very interesting discussion you have started here, and obviously you have researched your material very thouroughly. So this post is in no way intended to disagree with your understanding of the scripture. In fact, your position reveals a very complete insight into the truly magnificent use of language by our Lord. I submit this only as a complimentary truth, also revealed to me by the Lord, which has been met with some resistance by the church community at large (which lets me know that it is the truth, because as Jesus said, “No man having drunk old wine will straightway desire new wine, for he will say within his heart that the old wine is better.”) However, after looking at the scriptures listed here and verifying the Strong’s Concordance references, I think you will find that the tapestry goes even deeper than any of us previously thought.

    Let’s begin in Numbers 1:17,18
    17. And Moses and Aaron took these men which are expressed by their names:
    18. And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
    (In this scripture the word polls is a figure of speech meaning heads.) In this way each man was numbered according to the number of male decendents in his family. Thus the ‘number of a man’ was the number of ‘sons’ which bore his name in their geneology – hence the phrase ‘the number of his name’.

    John, being Hebrew, would have been very familiar with this custom, being numbered among the descendents of Abraham. So when He used the phrases ‘number of a man’, and ‘number of his name’ it is certain that He would have known that this is the interpretation which would have been arrived at by those readers of the time. Which brings us to…

    Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    Now written in modern day numerics that is 666. The Lord, in His infinite wisdom and understanding of all the languages used both at that time and those which would be used in the future, often (actually most always) used words spoken once to convey two or even more meanings. So while it means exactly what you have conveyed here, I believe it also means what I am about to explain. So bear with me as we turn to the book of Ezra. It is best to read the entire second chapter to fully understand the reference, but I will quote only one verse here.

    Ezra 2:13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.

    Now we know from numbers that the number of children (polls) in a man’s family is the number of that man or the number of his name. The reader must seek the Lord’s wisdom and draw his own conclusion here. But let us reasearch a little further.

    The Hebrew lexicon found in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance lists the name Adonikam as entry 140, and defines the name as meaning ‘lord of rising’ from the Hebrew words ‘adown’ (entry 113 – ‘adown aw-done’ or (shortened) adon {aw-done’}; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):– lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-” and the word 6965 quwm koom a primitive root; to rise (in various applications, literal, figurative, intensive and causative):–abide, accomplish, X be clearer, confirm, continue, decree, X be dim, endure, X enemy, enjoin, get up, make good, help, hold, (help to) lift up (again), make, X but newly, ordain, perform, pitch, raise (up), rear (up), remain, (a-)rise (up) (again, against), rouse up, set (up), (e-)stablish, (make to) stand (up), stir up, strengthen, succeed, (as-, make) sure(-ly), (be) up(-hold, – rising).

    Hence we receive a conclusive warning from the Lord through the writer of The Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ that the false messiah (foretold in Matthew 24) is one who will raise himself up to take the place of God (sound familiar?) and will decieve the people into believing that he is the Christ, but will indee be satan himself, come in the flesh to rule the earth. Therefore, those who have the ‘mark of the beast, or the number of his name’ will be those who by choice or deception will be those ‘children of thier father the devil’ who follow after and worship him.

    Therefore be not deceived, for this man will surely come, and will be so convincing that anyone who does not beleive him and the signs and wonders he will be able to do will be considered evil, a heretic, and many will be delivered up to prison for re-education or execution. We need not fear, however, for Jesus promised us that in that hour the Holy Spirit would give us the words to say as a testimony for Him.

    A thourough study of the Revelation will reveal that as long as we are in these flesh bodies, then the Lord has not returned and anyone who claims to be Him must then be a liar. Hope this inspires all you serious students of God’s word to a new endeavor of study and debate. God Bless.

  168. astudent says:

    Rev, Gary,

    I am greatly encouraged by your comment. It has brought many things to my mind and not just about the number of man.

    First let me say that I do not usually get along well with those who are leaders. If I were guessing why it would be their pride of knowledge. Knowledge puffs up (1 Cor 8:1),
    It seems you have the same problem. If it is new to the church community it is rejected before it is considered.

    You seem to understand that there can be more than one way to view a verse, or to comprehend a subject.

    If a sign were on an island in the middle of a 50 ft pond, full of piranha, and we wanted to examine it, so as to know everything about it, we would walk around the perimeter of the pond, viewing it from all angles. The back of the sign would not look exactly like the front; however we would know that it was the same sign. I view the Bible that way. There may be more than one way to view the number of man and I see truth in your angle.

    When I was thinking about the number of man I noticed the number 666 was associated with Adonikam, but the Lord did not give me any understanding of why. Perhaps I didn’t think long enough and perhaps he wanted you to bring it to our attention. I for one appreciate the effort.

    The enemies of Jesus are dominion, authority and power, or one could say “heads”. It seems to me that anyone who is an authority is assuming the role of God. That is by definition the power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.

    I must think about your view more so God can give me a better understanding, but it has opened my eyes a bit more.

    Thank you very much.

  169. Mike McMahon says:

    astudent,
    I found this blog because I have come to the same conclusion as yourself and I did a search on “666 spiritual meaning”. Let me explain how I came to my conclusion.
    I know man to be three things; Body, Soul, Spirit. We know man is left open to receive the spirit of his choice. If man choses God, he receives the Holy Spirit. If man choses himself, he receives an evil spirit who dwells within the mans house(body), if driven out, the evil spirit brings back other spirits with him. The only thing that can rid the evil spirit permanently is the Holy Spirit(man can only serve one master).
    Soul- We know man is the soul, or breath of life within the body. The soul of a man changes when he accepts God. He becomes a new creation, born again. The born again soul begins to grow from spiritual infancy into a mature soul of God.
    The body is just a shell, but we are told the body will become immortal when the time comes.
    A man of God becomes Godlike (not to be confused with being a God ourselves) when he becomes the finished product after much discipline from God.
    Now, along the lines of what you reveal in this blog, a man without God is without God in all three aspects (Body, Soul, Spirit). Its the triune of man, or 666. He is “man” in every sense. We know the great tribulation is for those who refuse God and the effects of the tribulation get worse as time goes on. This is because people will be at different levels of refusal toward God. The more stubborn one is, the longer it is going to take to see the light. Just like our kids, it takes different levels of discipline for each person. But here is one thing to think about, when the Bible says eventually every knee will bow, does that mean all will come to Christ and reach the Heavenly Kingdom?

  170. Mike McMahon says:

    One more thing,
    I agree with you, it does not change anything knowing the meaning of 666, because we have already chosen God. Having made this choice, we are no longer in a position to receive the Mark of the Beast on our hand or forehead (which I agree is a meaning of thinking or acting out our own will instead of Gods will). When one thinks in a spiritual sense instead of a physical one, they can start to see a whole new meaning to the Bible. The Merchants spoken of are not a men selling something, it is a spiritual referense for accepting or trying to get one to accept a false doctrine, religion, or belief. I could go into great detail of spiritual meanings of the Bible vs. physical meanings that are tought in todays churches, but I will save that for another time.

  171. astudent says:

    Mike,

    I do like your views about the number of man. It brings to my mind a parable that I believe God has given me.

    If there are men standing on opposite sides of the street and a car drives by with the word “truth” painted on both sides of it in very large letters, the man on one side of the street sees the truth approaching from the right side and passing to the left and the man on the opposite side of the street sees the truth coming from his left and passing to his right. Same car, same truth, just different views.

    I do not believe all will be allowed to turn to Christ, because Rev 20:15 says “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” That said, I hope I am wrong and that I just don’t understand. (1 Cor 8:2)

  172. Alpine Bob says:

    When you said “holy holy holy” related to 666 I was sold based of what His Spirit has been showing me. I have skimmed over the entire conversation. There is so much wisdom and understanding, forbearance and love. I will have to take time to steep and meditate on all that is discussed. Iron is being sharpened and it must be to fight against the perpetual lie leading to death Satan has set forth. Thank you.

  173. Adeleye A .A says:

    I came by this site by chance while googling for the signifance of “666″ or “the number of a man”.I must admit all ive read about all your different views on this question has really got me thiNkinG.so far,ive read 4 diffent views on the topic and think it fair to name these “schools of thought” after each one of you.i have a theory as well but would like to study yours more carefully.is science really one major medium in which satan deceives?is so,doesnt that kind of shake the foundation of some of these theories??does our own One true God not encourage science???i believe in some special significance in certain symbols i.e Numbers as being used by d Creator like 7 as in 7days of the wk,7days of creation,beast with 7heads,7 golden candle sticks,7 trumpets etc Then there’s 3 as in “THE HOLY TRINITY”,periods in a day,peter dening Jesus Thrice,3 crosses,God called samuel 3ce in his sleep etc. Would i be right to assume there’s a symbollic representation to the order of creation or just a coincedence.sorry,i’m not an expert of bible quotes but just out of my own stupidity,in the book of Rev.it mentions of the meaning of the beast with “7″ heads to mean “7″ special people -’5′ have come,’1′ is and one is yet to come.lets ponder on this a little,does this refer to “julios ceasar”,”napoleon”,”alexander the great”,”hitler” and ofcourse “sadam”!(5),now its obvious that one currently is and one is yet to come.i’m only saying we’re indeed the “sixth hour” or “eleventh hour” whichever way you choose to view it.lets be watchful… AAA

  174. astudent says:

    Adeleyde,

    I will give you my answers as clear as I can, but it is God’s answers that are the only perfectly true answers, so ask God for His answers and only consider mine as possibly true.
    First, I believe Satan will use science or anything else to deceive us. You ask if God encourages science and my answer would be that in the grand scheme of things it is not very important.
    The God of the Bible only emphasizes that we realize we all sin and that we need a covering for our sin, in order to hide it from God.
    People study science in order to improve life in this world. This life is short and means very little when compared to eternity. Science is very interesting, but not that important. It is much more important to understand the Word of God.
    Seven seems to be symbolical of completion. The creation was or will be complete in seven days and that is when God will rest. God’s days are not the same as our days and God has not yet rested (John 5:17). We are either in the last part of God’s sixth day or the first part of the seventh.
    The number three may refer to spiritual completeness. I have not thought much on three, but just for a quick answer, most Christians will say that God is three parts, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This can become a separate and very deep subject and also very confusing; because everyone will agree that there is only one God!
    God has not given me an understanding of Revelation so I cannot answer about the beasts, crowns, horns, kings, and hills.
    It really does not matter when time will end. Everyone’s own time will end or they will die before they are 120 years old (Gen 6:3). Therefore, everyone is in his or her own last hours of this phase of life.
    I believe everything in the Bible is symbolic of spiritual facts. Because we only know physical things, God must use them to teach us about spiritual things. I do not think that anything in the Bible is coincidental. I believe every number, word, and story in the Bible is there to teach us what He wants us to know.
    I have to laugh, because I do not think He wants us to know everything just yet!

  175. Adonis700 says:

    I love reading websites that share the same views and insights that I do. When i first read this article I almost thought it was something I wrote ten years ago. That was the time i just started junior high and I asked God for wisdom. All of a sudden i noticed that none of the leaders wanted to touch on the topics that I had questions about. So as a young kid i was left to my own understanding for a while. I went to aol chatrooms and christian forums to “sharpen some iron” because no one around me were really dividing the word of God, and examining the spirits as much as i wanted too.

    It’s funny that andyze101 mentioned the “atheist and pseudo-christian” alliance because this was the exact same “phenomenon” that was occurring in the Aol Religious Chatrooms back in the days. I’m guessing no one really uses aol anymore and they moved to the more contemporary areas of the web such as facebook, youtube, twitter etc… I argued for hours and hours and hours. breaking night, two days without sleep. I was just as paranoid. I was thinking how much misinformation was being sent out to the world and i felt like i had to put a stop to it. I used to think i failed and it was useless and i had no way of getting through to these people. Then I realized something. at 16 years old i was able to quote the bible and connect the dots and link patterns of bible verses quickly. Because of all the studying i did trying to prove to these people the righteousness of God and how loving he is, i learned so much. And all though i count those days as a loss, i now see it as a victory. I am able to read everything you guys wrote and know exactly why you guys came up with the conclusions you did.

    “The Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom” proverbs 1:7

    Andyze101, the best thing i can tell you is to Fear, Respect Revere the Lord. know that every good gift comes from our Father in Heaven. Understand God’s Mercy and Love. His Righteousness shall never be shaken or broken. He loves us enough to adopt us through the blood of his own Son. If you keep these words as the anchor to your search for truth, there will be no one, nothing, no angelic being, no alien, no magical/political/new ager sage that will ever shatter the foundation of your wisdom.

  176. astudent says:

    Adonis700,

    I too tried to teach, before I realized iron does not sharpen iron. It seems to me that as we tried to show others what we understood, and could not, God (The Stone) was sharpening us. It takes a lot of caressing with a stone to sharpen anything. God was caressing us and we learned when we thought we were teaching!
    You came to the same conclusions because you had, and still have, the same teacher.
    Isn’t He amazing?

  177. watt says:

    Like you astudent, I have pondered this number over the years, mainly because I know that I don’t want it.

    Wasn’t it 1/3 of all the angels who jumped into perdition with Satan? 3 does come up a lot in the bible. What if perhaps the number 666 represents simply two-thirds.

    In reading your ideas, I found some common ground in what has been revealed to me in my heart by God, or what I perceive ‘could’ be the meaning.

    Our very government uses thirds to determine the outcome of a vote. Oddly 2/3. 2 divided by 3 = .666… ‘the number of man’. In the year 2000 the percentage of Christians to other faiths and non-faiths was .. one third exactly, 33 percent.
    Thirds , thirds everything is in thirds.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

    What if the percentage of Non-Christians vs. Christians in the world were to determine the end of times for Earth?

  178. astudent says:

    watt,

    You rang my bell when you wrote our government uses 2/3rds to determine the outcome of a vote!

    Our system is a system where we put our trust in men. God says do not do so. Psa 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.

    We elect a man and when he doesn’t do what he said he would do, we elect another! This Government is 666.

    I think that when 100% of those who are going to turn to God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob is when time will end. That will be the determining factor. But then as I ponder it might only be the result as no one will be able to turn when time ends.

  179. watt says:

    I read somewhere that that verse you quoted astudent is in psalms at the center of the Bible. I think an e-mail I received.

    I just did a pdf search through the bible for the word ‘trust’, Psalms 118:8 is much like the verse you quoted, in fact Psalms uses the word ‘trust’ a LOT! The New Testament does also!

    Trust is perhaps one of the hardest things for a man or woman to do and what Our God want’s the most from Us.

    Jesus Christ our Lord really had his work cut out for him here! Healing people was the perfect miracle to perform to grab our attention and He still does that for us, thankfully. Elija’s fire and such miracles are lost in the maze of thoughts, healing sticks to the ribs, raising dead people the proof of our hope in eternal Life!
    Our Lord is Sharp as a Tack and Kind.

    Psalms 118:8-9
    It is better to Trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man
    It is better to trust the Lord than to put confidence in princes.

    This is good advice for all and worth repeating. This is not b*** kissing but instead it is Love.

    It does make sense that God will, knowing men’s hearts, wait until the crop is full astudent. My thought tended towards Christians being overwhelmed by number. When no work can be done in Christs words.

    I have to admit that when I read your leading article it gave me courage to share my thoughts with this large audience. Thank You, it is a good and obviously stimulating article. And what a Great Crowd here!
    You’re always encouraging.

    The thoughts that seem to ring in my head lately have been those pertaining to enduring. Keeping my head clear, another very hard thing to do in this day and age. Reading the Bible alongside my Studies,
    Praying even for my enemies and seeing them as people in the same boat we’re all in here.

    God Bless :)
    watt

  180. astudent says:

    watt,

    Thanks for the comment. You have encouraged me: you are part of the crowd. I write on this blog in order to find disagreement, because one learns from thoughts that disagree. But sometimes disagreement weighs heavy on me. Sometimes you just have to say what must be said, even though it may seem harsh.

    Then, when it happens, God will touch someone like you to encourage and cheer me. Ha, and you thought you were being encouraged!

    Thank you.

  181. Rick says:

    1st John chapter 4 and chapter 5 and Daniel chapter 1-12 and Revelation 1:1-22:21 I believe will help to clarify any questions surrounding the Spirit of Prophecy. Let us come together and start with unconverted and unspiritual cannot fully understand it. matt 11:25 and 2nd Peter 3: 15,16 1st Corinthians 2:13,14. The Bible must interpret itself Isiah 28:10 ,13 2nd Timothy 2:15 Luke 24:27,32 Luke 4:16-20 and 1st Cor 2:13. We must study it prayerfully Dan 9: 3; psalm119:99,100 and Proverbs 2:3-5 We are to receive the Bible as the Voice of God To Us Personally John 10:27 John5:39 1st Thessalonians 2:13 psalm 119:105 John 7:17; 1st Timothy 4:16 1st Peter 1:22-25; Job 22: 21,22. Why was Bible prophecy given? Rom 15:4 Amos 3:7 2nd Peter 1:21 Deut 29:29 2nd Peter 1:16-19 1st Peter 1:9-11 Matt 24:15 Rev 1:1 Prophecy , God’s challenge to unbelief Isiah 46:9,10 Isiah 42:9 Isaiah 41:21-23 John 13:19 Isiah 44:8 Some definite Bible prophecies fulfilled in detail Isiah 13:19-22 Jeremiah 51:24-26 Zeph 2:13 Ezek 26 Eze 28:20-23 Ezek 29:15; 30:13 Deut 28:25,37 The Great Prophecies of Daniel Matt 24:15 Daniel 2:28 The 4 great Kingdoms of this world Chapter 2 daniel then Dan 2: 38 Isiah 14:4 Isaiah 13:19 Isiah 44:27 Jeremiah 50:38; 51:32,36 Daniel Chapter 5 Dan 2:39-43 The universal Kingdom of The God of Heaven Dan2:44 Christ represented by a Stone Gen 49:24; Acts 4:11; 1st Peter 2:7,8 Ephesian 2:20 His Kingdom Future at His First Advent Matt 26:2; acts 1:6 Matt 25:31 Matt 6:10; Rev chapters 11-15 2nd Timothy 4:1 and Revelation 22:20. This will help to place the narrow path closer to the Laodicean lukewarm Christian Jesus will say to in that day depart from me you worker of lawlessness iniquity I do not know you. yes it is dangerous to assume to know Jesus when His commandments are not obeyed because though they do not save they point out the lawlessness and iniquity in ones life and having the faith of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. To be clear though it is only the blood of Jesus which washes away sin and covers our unrighteousness in His righteousness and by His stripes we are healed. He then said Follow me and go and sin no more. so the only way we know sin is to meditate on God’s law the 10 commandments so we can confess sin and repent from committting further sin. The Son of God died once for sin and he is risen and we too are called to leave our lives of sin behind and to go on unto perfection in Christ Jesus. We must be sealed with God’s name written in our Forehead in order to not receive the mark of the Beast. or worship the image to the beast. Hope this helps. when just one person repents and is baptized all the Holy Angels in heaven are rejoicing. Jesus is our Creator and our Redeemer and we are to Worship ourFather in Spirit and in truth. and to obey His commandments because we are saved not in order to have salvation. It was Jesus own finger which wrote the Commandments in Stone with His finger and though others have thought to change times and law they cannot be changed because truth is truth and will not mix with error.

  182. watt says:

    Astudent,

    You have insight that escapes some, I welcome it.
    It is refreshing to come here and read through the articles posted and boy is this thread getting LONG! I check in from time to time to peruse a good argument. It’s great here because nobody’s yelling, just discussion. There are also Bible Verses thrown out amidst a view posted that may have escaped me.

    You’re welcome, We are called to encourage each other and in Your reply I find encouragement also.

    Rick,
    You bring up some good points, I have a question for You.

    Forehead and Hand have generally been used to describe things Good and bad upon us. When it says
    that God’s name be written “in” our forehead, is that to say that God should rest comfortably “in” our thoughts? It seems that “in” and “on” have been pretty well established in meaning in the Bible.

    watt

  183. adonis700 says:

    I thought this would be of interest to some.

    This verse stuck out to me like a sour thumb. More because of it’s number.

    John 6:66

    It reads “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.”

    I feel that this verse points out two things.

    One: They were disciples of Jesus.

    Two: They no longer walked with him.

    I thought this had some significance and decided to share it

  184. astudent says:

    Rick,

    I like to read and think about all the comments. Don’t think I am not paying attention to yours. I have been busy lately and your Scripture references are extensive. I have enjoyed reading them so much that I find my mind wandering to other topics. I will try to improve my focus.

    watt,

    Did you notice that the NIV uses “on” and the KJV uses “in”? I kind of lean toward “in” as I think only God can see the mark.

    adonis700,

    That is interesting, some would argue that you cannot loose salvation, but I believe that though God will not let anyone else take it, He will not keep us against our will. And that would indeed make the man that turned away a 666.

  185. DOT says:

    Some may find the writings of Ellen White quite interesting by reading the topics of conversation here (very captivating by the way). You may find her writings at this link (start with the Great Controversy if you really want to dig in). http://www.whiteestate.org/

  186. Gentle says:

    I am touched by these words! :P

  187. mark says:

    Wonderful discussion on a very important topic, because none of us want to be deceived or “caused” into receiving a mark or the number of the beast.

    The evidence is clear that six (6) is the number of man, alot of Christians seem to be waiting for “a”man
    to appear, and a man may very well appear that will deceive many. The Bible also talks of our bodies being the temple of GOD. Modern man (1750′s – Present) appears to want to set us up in this temple as our own god. Both socialism and capitalism and all the other ism’s are set up with science as our religion, feeding the flesh as our ultimate goal. Worshiping self above all else. This is 6 as you describe it and the anti-christ. Science, all catagories are this false prophet, that does lieing wonders in the sight of man, it has even made an image that really does speak blasphemies agains GOD.
    And now through “transhumanism” wants to offer eternal life by downloading our minds onto a computer.Medical science changes our GOD given body into something ungodly, changing men to women, women to men, mixing iron with miry clay,
    Thrust in thy sickle for the earth is ripe and ready for harvest, we reached 1billion people in 1800 a.d. We’re on the verge of 7 billion people today. Israel is a nation again! Jews are being brought back litarally from the four corners of the earth.
    So knowing this the number of the beast is very important but having GOD’S mark in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior is more important. It appears most on this page also believe that. So fear not when you see these things occuring for your redemption draweth near.

    1Ki 10:14
    Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

    This appears to have been a tax. how many of us do not know their tax i.d. #/ss# or have a copy of it on hand.

    Something else google earth from the temple mount to the square in mecca 666 nautical miles. Just thought that was interesting.

    Sorry “a”student lol didn’t find anything to disagree with in your writings.

  188. astudent says:

    mark,

    That is interesting and I agree with everything that you have said.

    I don’t think science is the ultimate false god, because if money were removed from science it would no longer be. Well, let me say that it would no longer have the power that it has now.

    It seems to me that money is the strongest false god. Satan has given his power to it. It has even corrupted the Church!

    Maybe the number of money is 666. It, like science, is only profitable for this world. Your verse 1 Kings 10:14 spurred this thought.

    Yes, the mileage comment was interesting. I didn’t know that.

    Keep trying to find something to disagree with me about. I see that you are a true student and I rejoice in the knowledge that we can study together.

  189. Peter Ramsey says:

    The number of a man is 666.
    The Antichrist will appear at the 6th seal, 6th sign and 6th trump.
    Jesus will return at 777.
    Who is the Antichrist, is he here now?
    What time is it?

  190. astudent says:

    Peter Ramsey,

    Yes, the antichrist is here now. (1Jn 2:18 NIV) Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

    That also answers, “What time is it?” It is still the last hour!

    You may well be right when you cite Revelation, but God has not yet given me much understanding of Revelation so I cannot agree or disagree. I will understand someday, just not today.

  191. lee says:

    anyone ever thought of this,the number 666 only shows up twice in the bible.in the exodus in ezra,and in rev.about the beast.i don’t believe theres is any coincidence in the bible,so the number is of the man that the number follows out of the exodus

  192. astudent says:

    lee,

    666 is spoken of 4 times. (1 Kings 10:14, 2 Chron 9:13, Ezra 2:15, and Rev 13:18) I certainly agree that there are no coincidences in the Bible.

    The number is the number of the beast that came out of the sea and is the same number as man’s (more than one).

    I don’t quite understand when you say the “the man that the number follows out of the exodus.

  193. BOB says:

    Hello All.

    Astudent, thanks for this. Pretty cool idea of yours.

    Im not saying this IS the answer, but i have been contimplating this.

    Revelation 13 says the number of the beast is A mans number. Specificaly. One man.

    As others have pointed out, 1 kings 10:14, and 2 Chronicals 9:13, Mention 666, pertaining to The Weight of Gold that came to Solomon, at his temple. (remeber now theres supposed to be a rebuilding of the temple) So 666 was his number.

    Also Ezra 2 mentions Adonkim as having 666 desendants.

    Adonikam was a noble under Artaxerxes sent from Babylon to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple. So HE has something to do with the temple as well.

    Where did solomon get the Gold from? Queen of sheba, and King of Tyre(hiram)

    Hiram abiff, is central to freemasonry, as is the temple, and King solomon.

    Hiram King of tyre is mentioned as being corupted, and mabye even possesed by Satan, in Ezekiel 28

    Hiram Also Helped build the Temple. Both Hiram, and adonkim, were Masons. Hmm…So 666 has EVERYTHING to do with the Temple. Ok we got that covered.

    666=Temple.

    So The Construction of the temple has SOMETHING to do with the mark of the beast. Solomon IS the temple. Just ask any Jewish person, Its SOLOMONS temple. We Know Now any one who is Born-again by the Blood of Jesus, is NOW the temple of God. So TO RE_Build the temple, would be an abomination no?

    So 666 IS the number of Solomon. If you google imagesof the “seal of solomon”, guess what will come up? I’ll give you a hint… its got Six points, six Triangles, and a six sided hexagon in it. 666 Hmm…

    So is that the mark of the beast?

  194. astudent says:

    Bob,

    You do bring up an interesting point when you said the number is that of “a” man.

    I have e-Sword on my computer and I chose Revelation 13:18 and hit “compare”. Out of 12 versions of the Bible, only two used man’s number. The rest used the words “a man”.

    When I checked Strong’s, the word seemed to confirm “a man”. I think it can men either, man, or a man and means both.

    If I were speaking to you and used the same words as Rev 13:18, you would understand which I meant because of which word I put the most emphasizes on. If I said, “This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of “a” man, and his number is 666.” You would understand that I meant one man. I would sound the “a” as the first letter in the alphabet. However, if using the same words, I said, “This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a “man”, and his number is 666.” I would sound the “a” as ah, but when writing the words ah can not be used, because it is a word that has a meaning (used as an exclamation of pain, surprise, pity, complaint, dislike, joy, etc., according to the manner of utterance.).

    It is possible for one word to mean two or more and it is easy to become confused by it. The word antichrist is such a word. It, as 666, also appears only four times in the Bible (NIV, I am not taking the time to research every version). It can mean one or all.

    The more that I think about 666, the more it seems to stand for antichrist: all types of antichrist. Gold is a type of antichrist. It is money and Scripture says one cannot serve both money and God. Therefore, one can identify money as an entity against God. Because Jesus was an exact representation of God, then Gold or money is an antichrist. Gold as 666 is two of the four verses that the number is used in.

    Ezra 2:13 of Adonikam, 666 (NIV) uses the number to indicate how many sons Adonikam had. Someone in a comment pointed that out and I wanted to give credit where it was do, so I attempted to find it, but at this time there are 193 responses to this post and I was trying to skim them to find that comment: I gave up. So thanks God for giving that to the person that commented and thanks to that person for making the effort to pass it along. I have to admit that it is encouraging to see so many Christians that are seeking knowledge.

    Now that is out of the way, the name Adonikam is translated from the word “adoniyqam” and it means “lord of rising”. If I were trying to explain what that all means, it would be the number of the sons of man (a man) that are rising up against God. Christians are not lords, but servants. Those who are “lords of rising” are antichrists.

    The last time 666 is used it is clear that it refers to an antichrist. Whether it is one man or all men the number is the same number as the beast that came out of the sea. One cannot worship both the beast and God, so the number in this verse also is the number of the, or an antichrist.

    Having said all of that I might agree with part of what you said. Do not be discouraged if I only agree with part as sometimes I find myself even disagreeing with myself!

    Solomon just might be an example of 666. God gave him everything when he asked God to “give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?” However, it was in a dream that he asked: I did not see where he asked when he was awake Solomon had already killed his older brother and Joab, even in the Tent of the Lord and then Shimei. When you consider all the blessings that God gave Solomon, even more wisdom than any man, along with riches that no man had ever had. Yet in his last days, he did evil in the eyes of the LORD. (1 Kings 11:6) Yet it may be that we will meet Solomon in Heaven. Solomon might have repented, but that information is not given. Keeping this thought in my mind and reading Ecclesiastes, it seems as though it was written by a man that has realized too late, what God wanted from him.

    I do not think 666 can be the number of the Temple, as it was the Temple of God. Could the number be both the number of the Temple of God and at the same time the number of the beast? I don’t see how, but then I don’t see everything.

  195. BOB says:

    Thank you for responding so quickly. Im not discourraged :) …Im not here to make anyone agree with me…just post my thoughts…maybe it will give light to something either You, or someone else is seeing…maybe not…

    666= perfect wealth

    666= perfect man.

    666= Sons of(Adonikam)The LORD of Rising.

    “ALL that dwell upon the earth shall worship him”
    Rev 13:8

    All the sons of the Lord of Rising(Out of the Abyss?)
    Sealed on their forhead and Hand.
    (Just like how the Sons of God, are sealed)

    Just think about this world…Knowledge is power…perfection…everything is self. I’d go into it deeper but i would be trailing off.

    Now TO Go into Why the Temple is 666, The temple was a place of Perfection. Pureness. Holyness. No one was Allowed into the Holy of Holies, unless they were specific blood, and a High preist.

    Now WE are the temple. There is no more sacrifice for sins, becasue Jesus is the sacrifice to end all.
    He is also our high preist. Now WE are the Temple.

    However The Sanhedrin(thier last act was sending Christ to the Cross) is being re-assembled. And Trying to re-build the temple…Ok…So, If ONLY Jesus saves, and WE are the temple now, then working to be perfect with out Jesus, is a sin. So the Temple being rebuilt, would be blasphemy. It would DENY christ. it would be ANTI-Christ. And “Perfect” humans would establish it. It will be SOLOMONS Temple…They will worship Perfect Man, Perfect “Wisdom” Perfect “knowledge” …Thats about all i see…Im stil not sure exactly, but its making sence to me…Temple would be perfection, Perfection of Wealth(666) perfection of man(666) Perfection of Self/Soul/Spirit?(666) becasue “perfection” of Self…would be evil becaue you can ONLY be perfected through Christ…

    Also
    “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshecha and Tubal, and prophesy against him and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal” Ezekiel 38:2-3

    Gog is probably derived from the Hebrew word (gag 312), usually meaning roof, housetop, or (as HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament puts it) the highest point of an edifice(Building). Highest(spiritual) point in a building(temple)

    Ma(or Mi as in Migag) = (mi 1189), who?
    Ma-Gog, means Whos gog, or Whos Temple?

    Meshech, means to draw out, Drag Out,Seize
    or Prolong extend.

    The names Jabal, Jubal and Tubal Cain come from a word rich in meaning. The root is (yabal 835) generally meaning bring, carry, lead, conduct. This root gives rise to a substantial amount of derivations. The following derivations are spelled the same as the name Jabal:
    (yabal 835a) means watercourse. This word occurs only in Isaiah 30:25 and 44:4 in plural.
    (yobel (835e) meaning trumpet; curiously enough the same as the name Jabal and not Jubal.

    Identical to the name Jubal is the word (yubal 835b), meaning stream. This word occurs only in Jeremiah 17:8.

    The name Tubal Cain may denote the next step up in complexity of human society: world wide industry and manipulation of metals.

    So then Ezikeil could be re-said as

    “Son of man, set your face toward the Highest point of the Temple, of the land of “Whos? Temple”, the chief prince of Seize World-wide Industry/Economy,…

    Hmmm Son of Man? Is this Jesus?

    Is Jesus to set his face aginst the “holy of holies” in Jerusalem, where the Chief prince of the Taken World wide economy IS?

    Maybe im just a crazy person…Or maybe im crazy like a Fox….hmm hahah btw, Fox=666!! Uh oh!

    Oh…and praise God for this website http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Gog.html

    …SO! Helpfull!! So Who knows, If I thought of it, then im WAY off…If I think I know something, then Im WAAY off. Jesus Bless you.

  196. Dominion says:

    Apocalypse 13, 18 Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

    The number of the beast is the number of a man. This means that the beast’s number is calculated as is a man’s number. A man’s number consists of three digits; the first is the number of the letters in his name added together and the digits added together until arriving at a single digit. The other two numbers are his date of birth reduced to a single digit, and the day of the week of his birthday.

    The beast is not a man. The beast is a symbol of a country imposing tyranny through war over the whole world, or nearly the whole world. Seven countries have done that throughout history since Daniel. Each of the seven heads represents one of these countries. An angel said to John in Apocalypse 17, 10 that five had fallen, one is and the other had not yet come. The one that existed at the time was Rome. The one to come was Germany. This was the head that had the wound of the sword and was killed but rose again with its deadly wound healed.

    Germany started World War 1 on August 1, 1914. On this date Germany became the beast. The digits of this date add up to 6 and it was a Saturday, the 6th day. The official name of Germany in German was Deutsches Reich. The letters of this name, using the 30-letter German alphabet, add up to 6. This would seem to be the answer to the riddle of the 666.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Reich

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_alphabet

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914

    http://www.searchforancestors.com/utility/dayofweek.html.

    Germany rose again restored and re-armed to launch World War 2. This beast made everyone worship the first beast, the glorious military heritage of the Fatherland. This nationalism was perhaps more effective motivation than the personalities of the Kaiser or Hitler, but swearing allegiance to either Germany or Hitler was to put it or him before God. This is what is meant by the mark of the beast in Apocalypse 13, 16,17. The forehead represents the mind, or belief; the right hand represents the will or the choice, the authority of a man. If Hitler couldn’t make everyone believe in his fascism then he could still make them obey.

    In Apocalypse 13, 15 it says that it was permitted that life should be given to the image of the beast that it could both speak and cause for people to be killed who wouldn’t worship the beast. This was the advent of motion pictures and the Nazi propaganda films. People went along with it all, and anyone who wouldn’t was an enemy of the state. The things that the Nazis did should make it obvious that this was the beast’s dark kingdom.

    The events depicted in Revelations, when one understands the meaning of the various symbols, corresponds to the first and second world wars, the restoration of Israel, the cold war, and apparently the second coming of Christ is still to come.

    In light of this number of the beast turning out to be real, it is fair to say that John really could see the future almost 2000 years ago and that this is proof of God.

  197. astudent says:

    Bob,

    I finally understand what you are saying. The reason that it took so long is my error.

    You used the word perfect to describe your view of man, wealth, and the Sons of Rising. In my mind I have been using the word perfect to describe Jesus and the word has grown to infer Jesus to me. It is funny how easily we confuse our selves. Anyway once I got over my confusion your way of understanding became clear and I agree with it.

    Even though I see and agree, I struggle with the terms perfect wealth and perfect man. No rich man has perfect wealth and no man, except Jesus was, is, or will be perfect. I cannot imagine a perfectly evil man.

    I wonder how many other times my preconceived application of a word has kept me from understanding someone’s view. I probably owe a few people an apology. Well, likely many people.

    I like your reason for commenting and I agree with it also.

  198. BOB says:

    Astudent,

    “You used the word perfect to describe your view of man, wealth, and the Sons of Rising”

    Ha! Well i wouldnt call it MY veiw of perfect, but yes. Its my veiw of what will be the Worlds veiw of what “Perfection” is. Now the World does not, and WILL not accept Jesus Christ as the ONLY way…but we know this. So yeah perfected man, perfect in enlightenment, and “love” and perfect in “Striving for peace” will have perfect wealth, perfectly distributed unto those who have the mark of the perfect society, that was perfected by the perfect man.

    “No rich man has perfect wealth” is correct, but under the “perfect man” who will claim Be “gOD” there wont be a Rich man/poor man, it will be equally distributed to ALL…so ALL of the world will belong to ALL who have the mark of perfection…they will be considered perfect humans, neededing and wanting nothing, because it will be shared by ALL…there will be no marriage, becasue it will be everyone FOR everyone…etc, etc…it will be this “Golden age” of peace and love. But really…in all actuality it will be 10x, maybe 100x worse than Sodom&gamorrah was.(Matthew 11:24) Just think about that…The punishment is going to be worse than sodom…so that means the Deeds will be worse than Sodom(Ezekiel 16:48) Anyway…it will not be “perfect” in the slightest…but this is what the World will want. I really dont think we are anywhere near there yet…how ever…Who knows how fast time will go.

    But yeah now that i totally changed the subject…Jesus bless you Astudent…I really enjoy your blog…keep on going with it, and keep seeking The lord with ALL you are. God bless.

  199. astudent says:

    Dominion,

    Please forgive me for being so slow to respond. I could say that I was very busy and just couldn’t find the time, but that would be a lie. Truth is I am just undisciplined and one could say lazy.

    I don’t understand how you determined that a man’s number consists of three digits and because I didn’t understand the very first part of your comment, I didn’t understand the rest.

    I can agree that the beast is not a man and is symbolic. I have a slightly different view of the heads of the beast. Most view the heads as you do: countries. But I see them as governments. It seems as though they are the same, but I think the one to come is Islam, which is a religion, many countries, and also a government. It is the religion and government of men or “six” and an enemy of the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.

    The second beast, the one with the same number as man, just might be money. It is money that is the strength of Islam and it is money that causes men to worship the first beast (Islam). Without oil, Islam would have very little power. Money seems to fit all of the verses about the second beast, from my view point. Money is a master that opposes God and we are told that we can not serve both money and God. Is the name of the beast “Money”? Can you buy or sell without “Money”?

    Don’t worry that we must use “Money” in order to exist. We are told that we can pick up serpents with our hands without being hurt at all and “Money” is a serpent; a master that opposes God. God is greater than the mark of the beast and He has sealed us with the Holy Spirit. So do not worry about the mark of the beast. Worry is a sin. Do not sin; God will save us from the mark of the beast. He already has! Keep your trust in God and put none in “Money”.

    It doesn’t seem to me that God would choose the German alphabet to reveal the number of man. That would mean that one would have to know the German language in order to understand the number and it would eliminate the possibility of understanding for many. I believe that God would not limit anyone from understanding if they wanted to: and if they asked Him.

    Even though Germany, under Hitler, killed many Jews it pales in comparison to Islam, which has many leaders and a genuine hate for the people of God. Islam seemed to be defeated by the Christian crusades, but it has revived. That fits Rev 13:3. The things said in verse 4 thru 7 also fit Islam.

    By the way, you use the word “Apocalypse” where I would say Revelation. Is there a translation that does so, or did you just get in a hurry in you zeal? I don’t know of all translations, so try to over look me if there is one and if it was zeal, then zeal is good!

  200. Josette Robles says:

    Something I found thought you may want to check it out I pasted some of it below but this is the website:Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” (Revelation 13: 18).

    Greek and Hebrew do not have separate numbering systems. Each letter of the Alphabet has a numerical value, so that numbers are written with letters. “Six hundred threescore and six,” is written in the New Testament Greek with the letters, Chi, Xi, and Stigma.

    The Greek Chi-Xi-Stigma is Six Hundred, Sixty and Six. It is also an acrostic abbreviation for the crucifix. Acrostic means that each of the number/letters is the initial letter of a word or phrase. The three Greek letters of the acrostic, in Revelation 13: 18, need to be deciphered. Each letter is an initial in the cryptic abbreviation. The number 666, besides being the number of the Beast, is also an acronym describing an idol (abomination) or image of the Beast. Scripture says this image would be given a spirit (Revelation 13: 15).

    Value Initial Sound Represents Translation

    600 = Chi = khee = Christos = Christ
    60 = Xi = ksee = xulon = cross
    +6 = Stigma = st = Stigma = pierced, nailed through the hands
    666 = Christ-cross-pierced (image of Christ on cross = crucifix)

    Strong’s Concordance #5516 “Chi Xi Stigma [khee xee stig-ma]; 22nd, 14th and obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th letters) used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral: -Six hundred three score and six.”
    [Interestingly, the 22nd, 14th and 6th letters of the Hebrew Alphabet (Tau, Nun, Waw) spell tanu, "his dragon"].

    The Greek acrostic here is represented by the letters CHI, XI, STIGMA, which are 666. Each letter represents a word.

    Chi is the first letter of Christos (Christ). X (Chi) is an abbreviation for Christ, viz. X-mas is Christmas.
    Xi, is the abbreviation letter for Xulon, a timber or tree (Strong’s #3586). Thayer’s New Testament Lexicon defines xulon as, “that which is made of wood, as a beam from which anyone is suspended, a gibbet, a cross” (p.432, #3586). Peter used the word xulon when speaking of the cross (Acts 10:39, Acts 5:30, Gal. 3:13, 1Peter 2:24).

    Stigma (Strong’s #4742) “from a prime stizo (to ‘stick’, or prick); a mark incised or punched (for recognition or ownership) i.e. (figurative) a scar of service; a mark,” i. e. “pierced.” According to
    Donnegan’s Greek Lexicon, stigma is “a hole, or mark, made with a pointed instrument. a mark of recognition or of disgrace. a mark of infamy. a mark made on the hands of persons who had enlisted as soldiers” (p. 1150). Under the entry of #5516 (Chi Xi Stigma), Strong’s informs us that #4742 (stigma) is also a cross. Therefore, the word, and letter, stigma have a definite reference to being nailed to a cross, or the marks/nail-holes from being nailed to a cross.

    The plural of stigma is stigmata. The so-called Catholic saints who had manifested the stigmata, bleeding wounds of Christ, like Saint Francis, Padre Pio and Teresa Neuman, were probably possessed by a deceiving spirit. They had wounds in the palms of their hands (and the other wounds). Modern archeological and scientific evidence has proven that crucified persons had the nails driven through the heel of the hands, or through the wrists, but not the palms of the hands. So the manifestation of bleeding wounds in the palms cannot be a sign from God, because it is inaccurate. It is a lie. Satan is the father of lies, according to the Bible. Individuals manifesting the stigma or stigmata have literally materialized the CHI XI STIGMA, the mark and number of the Beast, 666.
    Each letter in the 666 cipher represents a word. CHI = Christ; XI = Cross; STIGMA = Holes in hands/nailed to a cross. The deciphered acronym (CHI XI STIGMA) defines an image of, “Christ pierced and nailed on a cross,” i.e. A Catholic crucifix. An image of idolatry.

    The number 666, is the number of the Beast and also the acronym describing an idol (abomination) or image of the Beast. Scripture says this image would be given a spirit (Revelation 13: 15). Many Catholic “saints” have witnessed this spirit, and have seen the image on the cross come to life and have heard it speak to them. There is much documentation referencing the many physical manifestations of crucifixes bleeding genuine blood, and crying real tears.

    Many millions of Catholics kneel before crucifixes each day. I was once one of them.
    Yahweh’s Ten Commandments strictly forbid us from bowing before an image (Exodus 20: 4-5).

    CHI XI STIGMA, the 666 mark/symbol is a crucifix/idol.

    The English gematria of CROSS is 666

    The icon/image of the Beast, is the false image of Christ seen on the erroneous crucifixes perpetrated by the Catholic Church, and reinforced by the Warner Sallman “Head of Christ” icon. The crucifix/cross was a Pagan symbol, an image of sun-worship, as well as an instrument of torture and execution. The Catholic Eucharistic Host (sun-disk wafer) is marked with a cross. It is believed to be the “real presence” of “Jesus” (Jesus is the false name). Thus, it has been given a spirit (cf. Revelation 13: 15). When it is placed in the tabernacle on the Catholic altar, it is “the abomination of desolation, standing in the holy place.”

    Nine is the number of Divine manifestation and judgment. A proven method of gematrical calculation in the English Language assigns the number nine to the letter A, and each following letter is a multiple of nine. A = 9, B = 18, C = 27, etc. The word “cross” calculates to 666, the number of the Beast.

    The apostate church adapted the cross as a mark of “Christianity.” The CROSS/Crucifix is the mark/symbol that identifies pseudo-Christianity.

    C = 27
    R=162
    O=135
    S=171
    +S=171
    666

    The English gematria of cross is 666, the false name Jesus is also 666.

    Six is the number of rebellious mankind, and the triple six represents the great rebellion and allegiance to the Beast.

    To kneel before a crucifix in reverence is to give honor to the Beast/Antichrist. To pray before it is to worship the Antichrist. For a person to wear a crucifix, or even a plain cross, is to don the symbol of the Antichrist. Of course, most people do not know this. That is precisely why it is called a deception.

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” (Revelation 13: 18).

    Greek and Hebrew do not have separate numbering systems. Each letter of the Alphabet has a numerical value, so that numbers are written with letters. “Six hundred threescore and six,” is written in the New Testament Greek with the letters, Chi, Xi, and Stigma.

    The Greek Chi-Xi-Stigma is Six Hundred, Sixty and Six. It is also an acrostic abbreviation for the crucifix. Acrostic means that each of the number/letters is the initial letter of a word or phrase. The three Greek letters of the acrostic, in Revelation 13: 18, need to be deciphered. Each letter is an initial in the cryptic abbreviation. The number 666, besides being the number of the Beast, is also an acronym describing an idol (abomination) or image of the Beast. Scripture says this image would be given a spirit (Revelation 13: 15).

    Value Initial Sound Represents Translation

    600 = Chi = khee = Christos = Christ
    60 = Xi = ksee = xulon = cross
    +6 = Stigma = st = Stigma = pierced, nailed through the hands
    666 = Christ-cross-pierced (image of Christ on cross = crucifix)

    Strong’s Concordance #5516 “Chi Xi Stigma [khee xee stig-ma]; 22nd, 14th and obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th letters) used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral: -Six hundred three score and six.”
    [Interestingly, the 22nd, 14th and 6th letters of the Hebrew Alphabet (Tau, Nun, Waw) spell tanu, "his dragon"].

    The Greek acrostic here is represented by the letters CHI, XI, STIGMA, which are 666. Each letter represents a word.

    Chi is the first letter of Christos (Christ). X (Chi) is an abbreviation for Christ, viz. X-mas is Christmas.
    Xi, is the abbreviation letter for Xulon, a timber or tree (Strong’s #3586). Thayer’s New Testament Lexicon defines xulon as, “that which is made of wood, as a beam from which anyone is suspended, a gibbet, a cross” (p.432, #3586). Peter used the word xulon when speaking of the cross (Acts 10:39, Acts 5:30, Gal. 3:13, 1Peter 2:24).

    Stigma (Strong’s #4742) “from a prime stizo (to ‘stick’, or prick); a mark incised or punched (for recognition or ownership) i.e. (figurative) a scar of service; a mark,” i. e. “pierced.” According to
    Donnegan’s Greek Lexicon, stigma is “a hole, or mark, made with a pointed instrument. a mark of recognition or of disgrace. a mark of infamy. a mark made on the hands of persons who had enlisted as soldiers” (p. 1150). Under the entry of #5516 (Chi Xi Stigma), Strong’s informs us that #4742 (stigma) is also a cross. Therefore, the word, and letter, stigma have a definite reference to being nailed to a cross, or the marks/nail-holes from being nailed to a cross.

    The plural of stigma is stigmata. The so-called Catholic saints who had manifested the stigmata, bleeding wounds of Christ, like Saint Francis, Padre Pio and Teresa Neuman, were probably possessed by a deceiving spirit. They had wounds in the palms of their hands (and the other wounds). Modern archeological and scientific evidence has proven that crucified persons had the nails driven through the heel of the hands, or through the wrists, but not the palms of the hands. So the manifestation of bleeding wounds in the palms cannot be a sign from God, because it is inaccurate. It is a lie. Satan is the father of lies, according to the Bible. Individuals manifesting the stigma or stigmata have literally materialized the CHI XI STIGMA, the mark and number of the Beast, 666.
    Each letter in the 666 cipher represents a word. CHI = Christ; XI = Cross; STIGMA = Holes in hands/nailed to a cross. The deciphered acronym (CHI XI STIGMA) defines an image of, “Christ pierced and nailed on a cross,” i.e. A Catholic crucifix. An image of idolatry.

    The number 666, is the number of the Beast and also the acronym describing an idol (abomination) or image of the Beast. Scripture says this image would be given a spirit (Revelation 13: 15). Many Catholic “saints” have witnessed this spirit, and have seen the image on the cross come to life and have heard it speak to them. There is much documentation referencing the many physical manifestations of crucifixes bleeding genuine blood, and crying real tears.

    Many millions of Catholics kneel before crucifixes each day. I was once one of them.
    Yahweh’s Ten Commandments strictly forbid us from bowing before an image (Exodus 20: 4-5).

    CHI XI STIGMA, the 666 mark/symbol is a crucifix/idol.

    The English gematria of CROSS is 666

    The icon/image of the Beast, is the false image of Christ seen on the erroneous crucifixes perpetrated by the Catholic Church, and reinforced by the Warner Sallman “Head of Christ” icon. The crucifix/cross was a Pagan symbol, an image of sun-worship, as well as an instrument of torture and execution. The Catholic Eucharistic Host (sun-disk wafer) is marked with a cross. It is believed to be the “real presence” of “Jesus” (Jesus is the false name). Thus, it has been given a spirit (cf. Revelation 13: 15). When it is placed in the tabernacle on the Catholic altar, it is “the abomination of desolation, standing in the holy place.”

    Nine is the number of Divine manifestation and judgment. A proven method of gematrical calculation in the English Language assigns the number nine to the letter A, and each following letter is a multiple of nine. A = 9, B = 18, C = 27, etc. The word “cross” calculates to 666, the number of the Beast.

    The apostate church adapted the cross as a mark of “Christianity.” The CROSS/Crucifix is the mark/symbol that identifies pseudo-Christianity.

    C = 27
    R=162
    O=135
    S=171
    +S=171
    666

    The English gematria of cross is 666, the false name Jesus is also 666.

    Six is the number of rebellious mankind, and the triple six represents the great rebellion and allegiance to the Beast.

    To kneel before a crucifix in reverence is to give honor to the Beast/Antichrist. To pray before it is to worship the Antichrist. For a person to wear a crucifix, or even a plain cross, is to don the symbol of the Antichrist. Of course, most people do not know this. That is precisely why it is called a deception.

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” (Revelation 13: 18).

    Greek and Hebrew do not have separate numbering systems. Each letter of the Alphabet has a numerical value, so that numbers are written with letters. “Six hundred threescore and six,” is written in the New Testament Greek with the letters, Chi, Xi, and Stigma.

    The Greek Chi-Xi-Stigma is Six Hundred, Sixty and Six. It is also an acrostic abbreviation for the crucifix. Acrostic means that each of the number/letters is the initial letter of a word or phrase. The three Greek letters of the acrostic, in Revelation 13: 18, need to be deciphered. Each letter is an initial in the cryptic abbreviation. The number 666, besides being the number of the Beast, is also an acronym describing an idol (abomination) or image of the Beast. Scripture says this image would be given a spirit (Revelation 13: 15).

    Value Initial Sound Represents Translation

    600 = Chi = khee = Christos = Christ
    60 = Xi = ksee = xulon = cross
    +6 = Stigma = st = Stigma = pierced, nailed through the hands
    666 = Christ-cross-pierced (image of Christ on cross = crucifix)

    Strong’s Concordance #5516 “Chi Xi Stigma [khee xee stig-ma]; 22nd, 14th and obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th letters) used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral: -Six hundred three score and six.”
    [Interestingly, the 22nd, 14th and 6th letters of the Hebrew Alphabet (Tau, Nun, Waw) spell tanu, "his dragon"].

    The Greek acrostic here is represented by the letters CHI, XI, STIGMA, which are 666. Each letter represents a word.

    Chi is the first letter of Christos (Christ). X (Chi) is an abbreviation for Christ, viz. X-mas is Christmas.
    Xi, is the abbreviation letter for Xulon, a timber or tree (Strong’s #3586). Thayer’s New Testament Lexicon defines xulon as, “that which is made of wood, as a beam from which anyone is suspended, a gibbet, a cross” (p.432, #3586). Peter used the word xulon when speaking of the cross (Acts 10:39, Acts 5:30, Gal. 3:13, 1Peter 2:24).

    Stigma (Strong’s #4742) “from a prime stizo (to ‘stick’, or prick); a mark incised or punched (for recognition or ownership) i.e. (figurative) a scar of service; a mark,” i. e. “pierced.” According to
    Donnegan’s Greek Lexicon, stigma is “a hole, or mark, made with a pointed instrument. a mark of recognition or of disgrace. a mark of infamy. a mark made on the hands of persons who had enlisted as soldiers” (p. 1150). Under the entry of #5516 (Chi Xi Stigma), Strong’s informs us that #4742 (stigma) is also a cross. Therefore, the word, and letter, stigma have a definite reference to being nailed to a cross, or the marks/nail-holes from being nailed to a cross.

    The plural of stigma is stigmata. The so-called Catholic saints who had manifested the stigmata, bleeding wounds of Christ, like Saint Francis, Padre Pio and Teresa Neuman, were probably possessed by a deceiving spirit. They had wounds in the palms of their hands (and the other wounds). Modern archeological and scientific evidence has proven that crucified persons had the nails driven through the heel of the hands, or through the wrists, but not the palms of the hands. So the manifestation of bleeding wounds in the palms cannot be a sign from God, because it is inaccurate. It is a lie. Satan is the father of lies, according to the Bible. Individuals manifesting the stigma or stigmata have literally materialized the CHI XI STIGMA, the mark and number of the Beast, 666.
    Each letter in the 666 cipher represents a word. CHI = Christ; XI = Cross; STIGMA = Holes in hands/nailed to a cross. The deciphered acronym (CHI XI STIGMA) defines an image of, “Christ pierced and nailed on a cross,” i.e. A Catholic crucifix. An image of idolatry.

    The number 666, is the number of the Beast and also the acronym describing an idol (abomination) or image of the Beast. Scripture says this image would be given a spirit (Revelation 13: 15). Many Catholic “saints” have witnessed this spirit, and have seen the image on the cross come to life and have heard it speak to them. There is much documentation referencing the many physical manifestations of crucifixes bleeding genuine blood, and crying real tears.

    Many millions of Catholics kneel before crucifixes each day. I was once one of them.
    Yahweh’s Ten Commandments strictly forbid us from bowing before an image (Exodus 20: 4-5).

    CHI XI STIGMA, the 666 mark/symbol is a crucifix/idol.

    The English gematria of CROSS is 666

    The icon/image of the Beast, is the false image of Christ seen on the erroneous crucifixes perpetrated by the Catholic Church, and reinforced by the Warner Sallman “Head of Christ” icon. The crucifix/cross was a Pagan symbol, an image of sun-worship, as well as an instrument of torture and execution. The Catholic Eucharistic Host (sun-disk wafer) is marked with a cross. It is believed to be the “real presence” of “Jesus” (Jesus is the false name). Thus, it has been given a spirit (cf. Revelation 13: 15). When it is placed in the tabernacle on the Catholic altar, it is “the abomination of desolation, standing in the holy place.”

    Nine is the number of Divine manifestation and judgment. A proven method of gematrical calculation in the English Language assigns the number nine to the letter A, and each following letter is a multiple of nine. A = 9, B = 18, C = 27, etc. The word “cross” calculates to 666, the number of the Beast.

    The apostate church adapted the cross as a mark of “Christianity.” The CROSS/Crucifix is the mark/symbol that identifies pseudo-Christianity.

    C = 27
    R=162
    O=135
    S=171
    +S=171
    666

    The English gematria of cross is 666, the false name Jesus is also 666.

    Six is the number of rebellious mankind, and the triple six represents the great rebellion and allegiance to the Beast.

    To kneel before a crucifix in reverence is to give honor to the Beast/Antichrist. To pray before it is to worship the Antichrist. For a person to wear a crucifix, or even a plain cross, is to don the symbol of the Antichrist. Of course, most people do not know this. That is precisely why it is called a deception.

  201. astudent says:

    Josette Robles,

    I see that you have studied much about the number of man and languages. I like the fact that others think about God’s Word. I wish everyone did.

    I Googled “Here is wisdom” and found many “Hits”, but None with the exact wording (Well, I didn’t check all 98,800,000. That was the first time I hit return with those words. The second time it was 90,800,000 and the third time 91,800,000. I think maybe there are really, at the most 800,000, but even then, that seems two many).

    OK, I copied and pasted the whole line into Google and found the site. As you know, it started out with the claim that the mark, name, and number are not the same because the word “or” is used before both “name” and “number”. That does not limit the meaning of the three to different entities. If I said the mark was a characteristic of the antichrist, or characteristic of the number of his name, then it would be proper to use the word “or” in many descriptions of the three. For instance, “The mark is characteristic of the name of the beast, or characteristic of the number of his name”. Because we do not really know what the number, mark, or beast is I would not rule out the possibility of either conclusion. However, I would not base my conclusion on the possibility that the word only means “or” as in another entity.

    Anyway, what seems clear to you, does not pass the final test to me. I am not Catholic and have never been one. I see many sins that the Catholic Church has, is, and probably will make, however they teach that Jesus is the son of God and was the sacrifice for man’s sins. They present communion in remembrance of Christ and that he died for our sins. Therefore, I will not condemn the Catholic Church. I doubt if God is pleased with a church that sports an image of our Savior, or calls a mere man “Holy Father”, or worships the mother of Jesus, but that is His call to make: not mine. I must remove the log from my own eye first.

    The crucifix is a symbol of Jesus and the sacrifice that he made for us and though it is wrong to make an image, idol, or even a sacred stone, the image is a representation of Jesus and therefore could not, in my mind, be deception. Wrong, but not deception.

    By the way, I didn’t get the same conclusions, reading the web site, as you seemed to.

  202. BOB says:

    Im back. ha! …Just something to keep you Thinking.

    Exodus 13:16, And Revelation 13:16.

    First Exodus:

    “It shall be as a mark on your hand or frontlets between your eyes, for by a strong hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.”

    Frontlets: The Masoretic Hebrew word translated “frontlets” is Strong’s #H2903, transliterated “towphaphah.”
    Def: From an unused root meaning to go around or bind

    1)bands, phylacteries, frontlets, MARKS

    …So…thats a MARK on the Hand, And a MARK on the Forhead(between the eyes)

    Revelation 13:16
    “Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,”

    Just a throught.

  203. astudent says:

    Bob,

    Sorry that I was so long to return the comment. Well, you did say that it was something to keep me thinking and I am slow thinking.

    I thought it was interesting that both verses about the marks had the same chapter and verse numbers.

    I also thought it interesting that one mark, marked the people that God saved and the other marked those that are not saved.

    I really do appreciate your views as you view Scripture from a slightly different angle and that causes me to move so that I to can see as you do. I hope you move also in order to see as I do.

    The Spirit within me has not given me any more on the verses that you quoted. Maybe because He is reminding me that it is not by thought that one learns, but by the Spirit.

  204. Cristina says:

    Anyone that is Anti-Christ (against Christ)is therefore an Antichrist…not a literal being but the antichrist the antigod the non believers..I have understood this passage the same way the person that wrote this thinks down to a tee! You wear the mark on your Head (your thoughts) and on your hand (through your actions done with your own hands) million of antichrist becoming like a Beast

  205. astudent says:

    Cristina,

    Have you thought that animals only do what benefits them? An animal never does to others what it would have others do to them. Satan is a serpent, which is an animal or a beast. Humans that act like an animal or Satan, will be cursed more than animals, because animals know no better. It just all fits together: doesn’t it?

  206. astudent says:

    Bob,

    If you read this, I would like to thank you for the effort to keep me thinking. When you wrote your last comment the Spirit would not give me any more understanding of the mark. It makes sense, as I cannot demand anything from God. If I could then I would be the one with power. Thank God, I am not.

    Anyway, when the Spirit within me decided it was time to let me understand a little more I was thinking and reading Scripture about the Temple of the Lord and somehow I started to think about the word “forehead”. Well there are many descriptions of things on foreheads.

    To return the favor here is something to keep you thinking. Search the complete Bible for the words “forehead” and “foreheads”. I think you will be as amazed as I was as the Spirit teaches you.

    Just as an example, there were signs written on foreheads of men that God brought Israel out of bondage, which is a sign that He will bring us out of the bondage of sin. I have seen too much to list it all here. Maybe I will write a post on it. Anyway, thanks again.

  207. jay says:

    6.on the sixth day god created man. 6.one day to god is 1,000 yrs; therefore god gave the oppurtunity for mankind to exist for 6,000 yrs. 6. (Christ)-six letters in gods name (man)…………….. if anyone has insight let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is mans number. His number is 666………..god is the omnipotent, the omnicient, & the omnipresent……..he is the alpha and the omega…..the begining and the end……. matthew 24:22…………………………………………………………………god is love!!

  208. jay says:

    Our only duty on earth is to serve god, as long as we have food in our stomache and clothes on our back……..who is the perfect example of how to get to heavan, jesus christ…….he is the one we should follow and try to be like………the devil even tempted the lord, but the lord did not falter…….in my opinion jesus christ is the only one from many to be perfect; therfore we in the end times should follow jesus christ footsteps because he is the perfect example and was sent to us for our sins to be destroyed……..breaking the chains of sin start with the mustard seed of faith to move mountains, so we can set the nearly 7 billion people in the world free of the liar of all liars world he governs…….believe me brothers and sisters let’s prepare our selves with the armor of god for he is the one and only truth …the begining and the end, the alpha and the omega the creator of thee universe and the creator of man and all of its injusticenes ….for the sake of the elect………those days will be shortened ……..

  209. astudent says:

    jay,

    I agree with most of what you have said. It seems as though I usually view things from a slightly different perspective than others.

    You speak of serving God and I have given some thought to serving God. I do not see any way to directly serve Him. He made everything, including me, and if He wanted something that I could do for Him then I believe He would have already done it.

    Yes, I had the same thought that perhaps He would have made me for the purpose of doing something for Him, but my righteousness is like filthy rags to Him. To make a filthy rag to do something clean is not logical.

    The Spirit within me cleared this up for me when He revealed to me that it is not service that God wants from me. The most important thing said in the Bible is Deuteronomy 6:5 (NIV) “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”

    He doesn’t want my service. He wants my love. Though I can do nothing to serve Him, I can serve others like me: that He also loves, so there is room for service.

    It took a load off my back when I realized that God only wanted my love and it freed me to serve because I wanted to and not because it was required.

    I just like to understand exactly, so please forgive me if you think that I am disagreeing with you. I am not.

    By the way, the mountain will never be moved. Those who have no faith in God cannot move the mountain, because they have no faith. Those who have faith in God know that He put the mountain where it stands and that is where it belongs.

  210. understandlessthanIknow says:

    the father 1, the son (was Jesus then now the holy spirit) 3, and a man who will harness the holy spirit in the vessel that is his body shall be the holy trinity and they shall fight the unholy trinity. When 1 and 6 are unified by the holy spirit; the line that connects the two, seven shall be created and God’s work can be completed as the seventh day dawns. Two beast shall bring forth a third and it shall be ridden by a harlot. These need only be a representation; they may be physical or spiritual representations (likely both). However Satan wishes to mimic Gods (from the word Ghad meaning entity) glory as he is envious so to assume that he would mimic the holy trinity is logical and also to use a woman as it is a tried and tested method. An image shall be produced by the second beast and this shall be manifested. it is not important to know how or why but merely understand that which is important. The whole world is a stage and we are merely players. Many have insight so that when the time comes the chosen one will be prepared to save us.
    I believe we inhabit the new new testament but it is not being written. Worship only one God, not one religion, and Jesus was here; almost universally accepted, but it is not any image we worship but the spirit of God that is in every man, how pronounced relies upon his connection to God via his spirit, the spirit God placed inside him/her. I would assume you use science to dictate the beasts shape, the sea is not still is it; one beast, the beast rises from the earth, the ground is not still; an image and a harlot society is dictated by sex and money together the easiest way for an inter connected global society to perish is a viral pandemic. Watched the news lately? So a man will unify with the spirit of god and be completed and thus a representation of Jesus will be manifested; he will rise again and the beast shall be slain. What if heave was earth before it split apart and the 13 tribes fell from one another. So that the fires of hell would take all but those in the holy land a blessed place. I have a dream.

  211. understandlessthanIknow says:

    actions speak louder than words and to have thought it is to have been tainted by that thought the mark of the beast is in your head and your hand. The devil is a liar; evil men will use fear to create a an image and system to control; they shall be the anti-christ, a false prophet and behind every great man there is a woman; the harlot, evil men can be great. If Power corrupts and the world belongs to the devil for now then assume the beast is within a power-sect, energy, food and water, medicine. the basics of our existence.

  212. understandlessthanIknow says:

    Aramaic is the first language I know that preceeds Hebrew; there are three worthwhile representations of words of God in chinese, arabic and latin culture.

  213. understandlessthanIknow says:

    the spirit is our guide in all understandings

  214. astudent says:

    understandlessthanIknow,

    I like your name. But how can one know, what they do not understand? Anyway, I believe we both are seeking understanding.

    I see the three that are spoken of as Holy, as the Father, who is the only God. Then Jesus, who is the only begotten son of God, and then the Holy Spirit, which is the mind of Christ. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19) and that is three. If there was someone that were to harness the Holy Spirit, not only that would be four; not three, but also if any man could harness the Holy Spirit, he would have to be greater or stronger than the Spirit.

    I think that the seventh day has already dawned. A great light that was to dawn on the people that were living in the land of the shadow of death was spoken of in Isaiah (9:2) and in Mathew chapter 4 it is said that Jesus fulfilled that prophesy.

    The order of the Holy hierarchy is God (I Am) which was first in the universe (He made it), then His son (Only son that was not fathered from someone born of dirt (we all came from dirt (dust of the ground), and then the Holy Spirit (mind of Christ) that Jesus said he would send to us (John 16:7). Then there is John 14:26 that says God will send the Holy Spirit. I think that I can reconcile the two verses in my own mind, but just to keep this comment from becoming to long, I am not going to.

    Jesus was the only man that had no sin. He is our savior and the only savior necessary for the salvation of the world. If the whole world would believe, repent, and ask God for salvation, then whole world would be saved. There is no need for someone else to come in order for God’s work to be completed. Jesus said it is finished as he died on the cross and I believe that the work of God was what he meant.

    God is not going to force anyone to love Him. Love must be freely given: just as God freely gave it to us. If anyone comes to force others to believe and obey they will not come in the name of The LORD, the God of our fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He does not force anyone to believe or obey. It must be the individual’s choice.

    Do not think that I disagree with all that you have said. I do not. You have said many things that show your wisdom, but in order to shorten my comment I am not going to cite our agreements. Truth is I also understandlessthanIknow.

  215. Mark says:

    First of all, I would like to commend you on your graceful responses, and the posts of the people who are commenting. Why do we care about six hundred three score and six? It’s the number of the beast, that many will be CAUSED not deceived into taking, young and old rich and poor alike. I think we don’t want to loose our salvation in Jesus The Lamb of GOD by taking some form of a mark. The technology is there to implant a chip into every person on the face of the earth( one of the definitions of mark is an etching-microchips are made by etching the circuits ) But i agree also with Christina that our thoughts and actions determine who has the mind of anti-christ. I also agree with your response about the Catholics A+student, there are alot of believers in the LORD there. And to offend millions – the muslims are the only ones cutting off heads with swords as in revelations and haters of Israel,and believers in a book written 600 years after Christ lived on earth. The Jews are the LORD’S people like it or not.We Christians have been grafted into that tree. I think down thru the ages Christ could have returned at any moment in history. This IS the last hour. The Word says that a day is as a 1,000 years to GOD and 1,000 years as one day – there are 365,000 days in that 1,000 years and ALL OF THOSE DAYS ARE AS A 1,000 years to GOD – or as one day. HE IS INFINENT, a day can be a million years if HE wants it to be or a million years one day! The only thing different today are all the prophecies being fulfilled. Miracles happening all around us, wonders all around us. We’ve been to the moon, all of us can communicate instantly around the earth, we can destroy the whole planet in about 15 minutes, knowledge doulbes almost every few months instead of every 500 yrs. I’ve never heard of Germany or the USA for that matter in scripture, but i have heard of the Persians,Syrians,Egyptians,Romans and so on. But America has so many things in common with the Romans, and some believe The Revelations were written about Rome of that time, that maybe we’re the feet written of in Daniel. Our elite want us to throw off the restraints of GOD’S WORD to make money on us. HE that wins SOULS is wise the Bible says . GOD is holding out until that last person is saved. All glory and honor and peace and majesty and praise be to our GOD in Christ Jesus…God bless you all. Remain in Christ and he will remain in you, don’t let yourselves be spotted by the vanity of the world…there ARE many antichrists.

  216. Mark says:

    One other thing, six is the number of man-agreed.
    666 as i gathered you said is emphasis on man.
    like holy,holy,holy emphasises GOD’S HOLINESS.
    (OTHER times in the bible subjects are also repeated more than once for emphasis. Peter do you love ME? is just another example).
    i seem to think of the antichrist instead of being one man, as being a society of anti-christs OR 6′s like you said thus making the 666. Non believing , secular , and against Christ, Just as the image in daniel was different societies that ruled the world. And now America is in the world leader role. And our elite have paved a way for a secular, Christ denying WORLD SOCIETY. our culture has spread around the world. And that culture is like the devils montra “do what you will” “your number one”.

  217. astudent says:

    Mark,
    Thanks for the commendation; however, I do not always have a graceful response. I have at times been very sharp to some in other comments on some of my other posts. I have read my own comments and I wouldn’t change even the sharp ones: just so you know that I am truly a sinner. I must be, because I am laughing about it.

    You bring up an interesting point. The KJV does say, “caused” and the NIV says, “forced”. If the Beast deceived someone into accepting the mark, I could say it “caused” the error by deception. However if the Beast “forced” someone, I could not say it.

    Satan usually deceives rather than forces; however, he has deceived Islam into forcing people to claim Allah is God.

    I certainly agree with most everything that you said.

    There are many Christians, but only one Christ and there are many anti-christs, but there might be one main anti-christ. I don’t know: just a thought.

    Here is another thought. Have you compared the titles of the 12th Imam (Muhammad al-Mahdi – From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) to the titles of Jesus? It is said that the 12th Imam will come with a double- bladed sword (two edged). Muslims just might be surprised when they see the one they call the 12th Imam. Just a thought, please don’t throw rocks.

  218. Joseph Lule says:

    The first beast in the Book of Revelation is both a system and a man. That system controls people and is managed by people. It is a system that provides for the way man should live without God. It is a Man system that tries to make do of what is left of the world after the fall of Adam.
    The first beast is a system described by the bible as earthly, sensual and demonic. Its wisdom is earthly and sensual and demonic that yields the works of the flesh.
    This beast is a sort of system that man has created for himself in order to govern himself. It advocates for the way man should run his affairs without God. The system looks at the problems and tries to solve them without God in-put. The beastly system is a collective ideologies of man without God be it capitalism, socialism, communism, imperialism, tribalism, etc. All these ideologies are mankind and not God’s. That is why the Bible says that the beast was given authority over every tribe, tongue and nation. A human being is usually born under some system of rules be it in the family, community or nation.
    Man was created by God in His image and likeness. God made Man to be like Him and therefore would rightly call Son of God. God wanted Man to manifest things the way He does. He created Man to be a creator just like He is, have power over things just like Him, Act like Him and manage things like Him, Have his nature which is Christ like and live with Him eternally.
    Now thereafter because Man is no longer like God, he has tried to come up with many ideas. For example because Man love has become cold, rules have been created in order to ensure that people are at peace with one another. Man’s heart is filled with hatred and un-forgiveness and yet to be like God, Man has to love without any conditionality and be ready to forgive.
    This is what God describes as beastly system that is intertwined with many ideas. These ideas have driven Man away from God as Man now is no longer acting like God yet he was created in the image and likeness of God.
    This idea has taken root in Man and only sees help from the beast. (Only the system can help). This idea has kept man busy developing rules and laws and yet to God there are only two commandments that should be followed.
    Which Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-40 when asked which the greatest commandment is?

    “ Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? And Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” Deut. 6:5 This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev. 19:18 On these two commandments all the Law and the Prophets hang. “

    All the law is fulfilled in one word, and that is, love. See Rom_13:10. Love is the leading affection, which gives law, and gives ground, to the rest; and therefore that, as the main fort, is to be first secured and garrisoned for God. Man is a creature cut out for love; thus therefore is the law written in the heart, that it is a law of love.
    This is the sum and substance of all those laws relating to God which were written in men’s hearts by nature, revived by Moses, and backed and enforced by the preaching and writing of the prophets. All hang upon the law of love; take away this, and all falls to the ground, and comes to nothing.
    That’s is why the system will always fail as it is not grounded on love and Man will always attempt to come up with many rules and regulation that will come up to nothing.

    Worship – Means in English dictionary to adore which may also mean to love, revere, adulate, deify (idolize, exalt, glorify).

    To Love God Jesus said is to obey his commandments. This in itself means that Man has to be ready to hear what God says and to do what He says.
    Worshiping the beast according to the bible is to revere, adulate, and to love the beast. To love the beast means to be ready and willing to hear what the beast says and to do as the beast requires.
    The beast is a system that runs parallel to the Kingdom of God. The wisdom of this system is described as earthly, sensual and demonic. It is a system that will not lead Man to God but to himself. It a system that is self centered and runs parallel to the Word of God.

    By the way once Man worship’s the system he becomes an image of the system and has rejected God.

  219. Joseph Lule says:

    The second beast arose not out of people like the first beast that arises out of water but out of an organization which looked like the church as it has the form of Messiah’s kingdom on earth, two horns like a lamb; but has the direct power of Satan.
    The second beast is the church that deceives. It is a spiritual dominion, professing to be derived from Christ, and exercised at first in a gentle manner, but soon spoke like the dragon.
    The second beast has carried on its designs, by methods whereby men should be deceived to worship the former beast, in the new shape, or likeness made for it. By lying wonders, pretended miracles and by severe censures.
    This beast is already deceiving people by lying wonders, pretended miracles and by severe censures. This beast prays for the sick, prophecy and all manner of the supernatural comes out of it, and people gather around the beast and swear that he is of the Lord even though it is actually making money and living in sin.
    This beast causes those who dwell in earth to worship the system. I.e. deceives those who dwell in earth to worship the system.
    To make an image to the beast, whose deadly wound was healed, would be to give form and power to his worship, or to require obedience to his commands. This would mean that the beast would deceive men to obey the voice of the first beast. I.e. deceive all men to conform to the system.
    To worship the image of the beast, implies being subject to those things which stamp the character of the picture, and render it the image of the beast. This would mean that the second beast would cause people to acquire the image of the beast and become like the beast. That is having the picture of the beastly system. Man and Beast becoming one.
    The beast made a qualification for buying and selling, as well as for places of profit and trust, to forward the dominion of the beast, which is meant by receiving his mark.
    The qualification of buying and selling is undergirded by covetousness (having strong desire to posses something that belongs to someone else). This in itself means that the beast will deceive people by means of qualification of buying and selling that is undergirded by covetousness to acquire things by buying and selling so that they could receive the mark or image of the beast.
    It will lead people to desire to possess the things of the world in contravention of the Word of God which says seek first the Kingdom of God and it righteousness and all these things shall be given unto you. It is the love of things and not God. It will cause people to love the things of the world and thereby wander from faith.
    Paul says in the book of timothy which provides that if anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ….who supposes that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw, for godliness with contentment is great gain.
    And further says that people who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many grief’s.
    The second beast deceives people by causing all people to fall into temptation and harmful desires thereby leading them into accepting the image of the beast. Many people eager for the things of the world will receive the mark of the beast so as to succeed. (Become like the system-character of the world)
    This Second beast which is the church says I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing and because it is rich it has become a snare to all people but the power of God is not there as God moves by His spirit, not the amount of money or talent in the church.
    In the Bible it states that Wages of sin is death and as James puts it but each one is tempted when, by his own desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire is conceived, it gives birth to sin and when sin is full grown, gives birth to death.
    Here the people are tempted by their own desire to get rich and thereby dragged away and enticed and conceived covetousness (sin) and when full grown (becoming like the world) gives birth to death (darkness)
    And as written in the Bible because they did not receive the truth God will send them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie. That they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    When truth spoken in love is rejected, death has been chosen over life.
    This church is rich, complacent, made affluence the major criteria of spirituality and has lead more and more people to the first beast. Thereby it has acquired political, financial and physical power and refused to deal with rejection, bitterness, impatience, un-forgiveness, and lust; therefore lead to a rise of Christians, who are prideful, self-righteous, have respectability (having a sense being concerned with their reputation), full of selfish ambition and jealous. If only the Church emphasized on the Faith, Love and Hope of God. (Jesus)
    More Christians have therefore become fearful, shameful and depressed; thereby filled with treachery, intimidation, accusations, gossip, slander and fault finding. Because of this a multitude of people have been led to darkness and became like the world (beast).

    Please remember the words of Jesus as He said that a tree is known by its fruits.

  220. astudent says:

    Joseph Rule,

    That is an interesting view of the two beasts. I had not thought of it in that context.

    As I did I noticed the four beasts in Daniel chapter seven were four kingdoms. Kingdoms or countries are only governments, or systems, which is the word that you used.

    Continuing along with that line of thought, it seems as if churches have become a system or the government of religion. That fits with man seeks help from the beast, as you said. Most church members look to the church for help instead of looking to God.

    That may seem a small difference, until one thinks about it.

    Anyway, thanks for sharing your insight. That is why I post: to learn. You have given me many questions, with answers that seem right. I will think about it and eventually, when I forget who revealed it to me, it will become the way I always thought about it (LOL).

  221. matthew says:

    The number of man is 6

    Their are 66 books in the bible.

    Hum ….

  222. astudent says:

    matthew,

    You didn’t explain your thought, so that forced me to think about it and you are right. That is another way 666 can have a meaning.

    I realized that when we put the numbers (six) together, we usually add them, or compute the sum of them. However, there is another way to “put them together” and that is to just put them side by side. Sometimes the simple things escape us.

    If I add the numbers in your comment (6+66) the sum is 72, but if I just put them side by side I get 666.

    Considering the second way of presenting the numbers, I would say the number of the Bible is 66 and the number of man is 6, so when a man studies the Bible the result (not the sum) is 666.

    I know that when I read the Bible God points out to me that I am only a 6 and I need the ONE to be complete: a different number, the number 7: the number of completion. I am no different than anyone. He is pointing it out to all, if they have yet to realize it, or if they have already have found it out, He is reminding them.

    I trust that is what you meant, but if you have a different thought please say so.

    Thanks for the comment. A comment that makes one think is worth its weight in gold, but then what is gold really worth? It will make good bricks in Heaven. It doesn’t oxidize, so the streets will last and as we walk on it we will be reminded money was not worth serving: it is only good for paving.

  223. Sandy Crocker says:

    I am thrilled someone else has written on the topic I have been writing about for years! Here is an excerpt from my writings.
    “We could say that Cain is the beast. Adam would have been the first 6, his son Abel the second 6 and Cain the third 6…666. God placed a “sign” on him, as the beast is looking to place a “sign” on us.
    We know he was a murderer, a liar and held no respect for God. . He was sent out of God’s presence and doomed to wander the earth. God specifically stated no one should murder Cain.
    In Genesis 5, in the generations of Adam, Seth is listed as the first son, not Abel. Since Abel died, it would only make sense that Cain would be listed next in line, but he isn’t. What if Cain wasn’t listed, not only because he was no longer under the watchful eye of God, but because he never died? There is no record of his death anywhere in the Bible.
    God never does anything without a reason.”

  224. Peter says:

    I love when people use their heads! I consider your thoughts provoking. Good job! The one major reason I can still get out of bed each day, is that I know that my Redeemer lives! I pray for all that we may have courage to do what is right in spite of the ridicule of those who put their trust in flesh. God be with you. Peace

  225. seeker says:

    Mr. Joseph Lule,
    I enjoyed reading your post very much, wish you could write some more. What you said so far makes alot of sense. I suppose that part is complicated but so simple when you have decifered it. Do you have a blog?

  226. Joseph Lule says:

    Thanks seeker

    i do have a blog and it is http://www.josephlule.blogspot.com/

    Thanks again and may God bless you.

  227. Joseph Lule says:

    This is an explanation for those who walk according to the flesh and in rebellion against God and think of the beastly things (one who is with the beast whose number 666) will be clothed with shame.

    Philippians 3:18-19 For many walk as hostile to the cross of Christ, of whom I often told you, and now even weeping I say it whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and who glory in their shame, the ones thinking earthly things.

    Shame meaning is disgrace, embarrassment, dishonor, humiliation, disgrace.
    For those who think earthly things are described in Isaiah 42:17 that they are turned back; they are ashamed with shame, those trusting in the carved image, who say to cast images, You are our gods.
    Habakkuk 2:16 says You are filled with shame instead of glory; you drink also, and will be seen as uncircumcised. The cup of the right hand of Jehovah shall turn on you, and disgrace shall be your glory.
    some may say “I don’t worship carved images”, I pray that God may open their eyes, does one put their trust in their heart, riches, people?
    For those who seek after the earthly things think of the earthly things and are described by Paul as whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and who glory in their shame.

    Paul says in Philippians 3:20-21 for our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our body of humiliation, for it to be conformed to His body of glory, according to the working of Him to be able even to subject all things under Himself.
    Is your citizenship in earth or Heaven?
    Basically what Jesus is saying is that as stated in Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. But treasure up for you treasures in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust cause to perish, and where thieves do not dig through and steal.
    Do not be deceived for you to be clothed with the garment of the Lord you must crucify your flesh as Paul said in Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not make forethought of the flesh, for its lust

    There are doctrines out there saying that you can serve God and mammon which is a lie. For Jesus said in Luke 16:13 that No servant is able to serve two lords; for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other; or he will cling to one, and he will despise the other. You are unable to serve God and mammon.
    If you seek after the things of the world, our Lord says (Hos 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against Me. I will change their glory into shame.) You will change your glory into shame because you walk as hostile to the cross of Christ.
    Seek God and all these things shall be added to you. One cannot serve two masters.
    Those whose god is there belly will be covered with shame. They will be dishonoured, discredited for they did not serve the Master but served their own stomachs.
    And remember that who serve the stomach will become as the evil one who is the accuser of the brethren and as Psalms 109:29 says Let those who accuse me be clothed with shame; and cover themselves in their shame as with a robe.
    Be as the wise virgins in the parables of Jesus for Proverbs 3:35 say the wise inherit honor, but fools exalt shame.

    For this is the advice of Jesus Christ to His Church that says I am rich, and I am made rich, and I have need of nothing as stated in Rev 3:18, I advise you to buy from Me gold having been fired by fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, and your shame and nakedness may not be revealed. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

    For in Revelation 16: 15 the Lord says Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, that he does not walk naked, and they may see his shame.

    So the Lord says watch which does not mean looking after signs but keeping yourself pure from the world so as not to be defiled, for no one knows the day of the coming of the Lord.

    Therefore we are exhorted to keep His garment which we have been given and as discussed we become one with Him and become a new creature; seven and not six.

  228. Joseph Lule says:

    I believe that all us are born in sin and thereby we became men of sin just like the one the bible describes as the man of sin, the lawless one.
    That is why Jesus came to die for our sin so that we could be one with Him, and no longer sin which gives birth to death.
    This explains why when the serpent came and deceived Eve as stated in Gen 3:6-7 And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise. And she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed leaves of the fig tree, and made girdles for themselves.
    As stated in Rom 5:12 …….sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned. In this Adam failed to have faith in God and sin entered Man as he looked more at himself believing he could be as God knowing good and evil.
    Basically sin entered into their hearts they were covered with shame and that is why immediately they recognized they were naked they sewed leaves of the fig tree, and made girdles for themselves.

    Seeing this beforehand God had a plan and therefore Christ did come and died for the sins of mankind and by that His death He brought us closer to God by looking unto Him so that we can know Him. By His coming He destroyed sin as He directed people to God and sin had no power over the people as long as they looked unto Him. For God was in Him and Him in God and the His Loved ones where in Him.
    Therefore God accomplished a great thing by making a new creature that was again was now was and is walking with God as Adam and Eve walked with God in the cool of the day covered with blood of Jesus Christ and clothed with Jesus who is His Glory.
    Being a new thing i.e seven and no longer six, one with Christ are never covered with shame but with His glory as Adam and Eve were before their fall.
    Be clothed with Jesus as stated in Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not make forethought of the flesh, for its lusts.

  229. astudent says:

    Sandy Crocker,

    I found it interesting that Seth seemed to be spoken of as Adams first born. I have different thoughts about Cain and what Scripture means when it speaks of Seth in Genesis 5:3.

    The key to my understanding are the words “in his own likeness, in his own image”. We know that Cain was the first born of Adam, but Cain was a murderer and the father of a murderer (Lamech).

    God made Adam and Adam was not a murder. Seth was in the image of Adam and Cain was not in his likeness. The linage from Adam to Noah in chapter five seems to be a linage that is right and proper. There is no mention of wrong done, or caused by those in that line. I know all sin and fall short of the glory of God, but their sins must have been small as they are not mentioned.

    You make a good point when you say Cain was no longer under the watchful eye of God. My first thought was that you were wrong, until I reread chapter four. We seem to think that God loves everyone, but Scripture does not support that idea.

    You can be sure Cain died. He was born before the flood and even if he outlived Methuselah he would have died in the flood. Indirectly there is a record of his death.

  230. astudent says:

    Peter,

    If your comment was directed to me, then I admit that I try to provoke others. A spirited exchange of ideas or understanding is good for everyone.

    I also admit that I am not always right in my understanding. It is a good thing to find yourself wrong, because then you can learn what is right. Too many of us go through life not doubting ourselves enough.

    Thanks for the comment.

  231. Joseph Lule says:

    I just wanted to share this pardon me if it does not relate to the number of man.

    1948 (beginning of prophetic timeline when Israel became a nation) + 70 years (a generation) = 2018 – 7 (years of tribulation) = 2011

    (This just got me thinking any way just a thought as no body knows the day and hour of the coming of our Lord.)

    Prepare your hearts for the coming of the Lord and rejoice for your Lord is coming.

  232. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    You are certainly welcome to share anything, anytime, anywhere on this blog. I share seekers views.

    Of course, your comment created a question in my mind. How did you come to the conclusion that 70 years is a generation? I have often wondered how long a generation is, but the Lord has not made it clear to me.

  233. Joseph Lule says:

    All this is because of this statement by Jesus in Mat 24:-32-34 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near; so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors. Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

    Jesus was talking about the generation that sees the return of the Jews to modern Israel and that happened in 1948. He was also talking about all the other things that are to happen at the end of the age.
    According to the bible in Psalms 90:10 says “The days of our years are seventy; and if any by strength live eighty years, yet their pride is labor and sorrow; for it soon passes, and we fly away.”
    In Matthew 1:17 it says “So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, fourteen generations.”

    As stated the lives of these people are stated as generations and if one’s life is considered a generation psalms says our given days are seventy and the rest is bonus that can be explained in Genesis 6: 3”And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man; in their erring he is flesh. And his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.”

    Regarding 40 years in Psalms 95:10 it says “For forty years I was disgusted with this generation; and I said, They are a people who err in heart; and, They do not know My ways,” and confirmed in Numbers 32:13 “And Jehovah’s anger glowed against Israel. And He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the eyes of Jehovah was destroyed.”

    And because of their father iniquities their children were to be in wilderness until they all died “Numbers 14:33 And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and shall bear your fornications until your carcasses are wasted in the wilderness;’

    In that Nahshon who is in the genealogy of Jesus as stated in Matthew 1:4 fathered Salmon and Salmon was among the children in the desert who grew and ended up marrying Rahab the former prostitute. Basically what God said was that the generation of Nahshon would die in the desert and that the generation of Salmon would inherit the land.

    If you look at this statement in Numbers 14:34 “by the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year; you shall bear your iniquities forty years; you shall know My alienation from you.”

    Which means that God when punishing the Nahshon generation said forty days would be multiplied by a year that would be spent by the generation that lived in unbelief and that He would make sure that all of them died by those years.
    I believe God did not want to completely annihilate this generation at once because of their complaints and as Moses had always cried to Him that it was not good to destroy them as the people would say that God delivered them from Egypt and ended up destroying them in the desert.

    So God in making that statement honored Moses prayer by keeping a generation that would take over the new land.

    I believe therefore as psalms says a generation is seventy years “The days of our years are seventy; and if any by strength live eighty years, yet their pride is labor and sorrow; for it soon passes, and we fly away.”

  234. Joseph Lule says:

    By the way number seven means

    When God introduced the Number Seven as a symbol of the completion of His Work of Creation, He also associated it with sanctification (holiness), declaring that He “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.” Thus God laid the foundation for its application throughout the rest of Scripture. It is a double symbol signifying both completion and sanctification.

  235. Joseph Lule says:

    By the way baby boomers are defined as those born during the post world war II baby boom and if you look at it most became in the 1960s relatively large numbers of teenagers and young adults. If you look at it this is the generation that was born when also Israel was born and if you look at the bible a generation is a lifetime of seventy years and most of them are still alive and are nearly retiring and hitting seventy years.
    I saw this and this got me thinking a lot, I hope God gives an answer but I feel in my spirit as if the Lord is about to even come tomorrow.

  236. Joseph Lule says:

    By the way the importance put on the impact of the boomer was the selection by Time magazine of the Baby Boom Generation as its 1966 “Man of the Year”, at that time Israel was 18 years old and yes that was the mid year of teenagers and young adults of the Baby Boom Generation.

  237. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    Thank you very much. I missed the meaning in Psalms 90:10. I did know the meaning of the parable of the fig tree and I knew that time would be short after Israel was reformed, but I did not know how long a generation was. You have brought a smile to my face.

    At times, some Book of the Bible becomes a favorite and I read it, reread it, and enjoy it: which is probably why I read and reread it. The Book of Psalms has not been a favorite, yet. That is probably why I did not know the time of a generation. (just a thought)

  238. seeker says:

    You should be a teacher Joseph Lule. I find your wording easy to understand. Thank you for sharing.

  239. Joseph Lule says:

    Astudent,

    Thanks, we all learn and everybody has his/her time as life is journey of learning and also i believe it will be same when we are with our Lord in the new heaven and new earth.

  240. Joseph Lule says:

    Seeker,

    Thanks but i am just a servant and a vessel being used only the Lord knows what He has prepared for me. thanks again for the encouragement.

  241. Joseph Lule says:

    Deception

    Mat 24:1-5 And going out, Jesus left the temple. And His disciples came to show Him the buildings of the temple. But Jesus said to them, Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, There will not at all be left one stone on a stone which in no way will not be thrown down. And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And, What is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age? And answering, Jesus said to them, See that not any leads you astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ. And they will cause many to be led astray.

    Please take note that the disciples showed Jesus the magnificent Temple and its structures but the Lord broke their hearts by telling them “There will not at all be left one stone on a stone which in no way will not be thrown down.”
    And as He was sitting down on the Mount of Olives His disciples came to Him privately and not openly with the masses asking Him “Tell us, when will these things be? And, What is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
    They asked when these things will be and what was the sign of His coming and end of age, kindly take note that the Holy Spirit quickened their hearts to ask the Lord the question as they saw that He was talking about His return and the end of age.

    Sign of the times “Deception”
    “And answering, Jesus said to them, See that not any leads you astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ. And they will cause many to be led astray.”

    This answer was directed to His disciples that see that not any leads you astray, This warning was given to the disciples. It was directed to Peter, John and the rest of the gang and also to those who would believe the message of the Lord. This warning was not directed at the world but at the shepherds, the Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and the rest of the Church.

    Jesus foresaw that before His coming they would be great deception that would be spread all over the Church that would even target the Pastors. The warning stated that “For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ. And they will cause many to be led astray.”

    What did the Lord mean by saying for many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ?
    Oh that you may see many prophets would come in the name of Christ and would deceive many the Person of Christ. Basically what Jesus was saying was that not only would people say they are Christ but also some would deceive many by preaching another gospel, another Christ that was not the person of Christ and the Lord said that they would cause many to be led astray.

    Who is the Person Christ?

    In Revelation as Jesus addresses the Church He says “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, the One who is, and who was, and who is coming, the Almighty…. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last” “These things says the Son of God, the One having His eyes as a flame of fire, and His feet like burnished brass” “These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having “the key of David,” “the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:” “These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God” “These things says the One having the seven spirits of God, and the seven stars.”

    Oh that you may see He is Holy, Holy and Holy

    For Paul says His desire that He might present the Church to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

    This is what the Lord said that many will be lead astray by a gospel that does not preach the real person of Christ. The Lord was saying to His disciples please guard your heart from people who will preach another Jesus that is not the person of Christ. Yes He said many will be lead astray by this gospel for it was revealed to Peter in 1Peter 1:15 but according to the Holy One who has called you, you also become holy in all conduct; because it has been written, “Be holy,” “because I am holy.”

    Yes we are living those times that Paul called perilous times where a lot of people who know the Lord have a form of godliness but lacks power. It is those times where people have been peddled another gospel that does ask people to depart from their sins but encourages them to pursue a good life without living holy. It is a gospel that lacks the Holy Spirit as it cannot change people. It is all a lie as we all know we are supposed to be presented before the Father having no spot, wrinkle or any such thing. In this gospel the Word is not used to rebuke sin but used to encourage people to seek after their own desires.

    Those in authority are afraid to rebuke sin as many will flee from their churches and their desire is to have a big multitude of people in their church even though they know that those who live in the flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    This gospel is what the Lord Jesus warned us to be careful about for no one will see the Lord without holiness. It is gospel that allows people to say a sinner’s forgiveness prayer and with a magical wand they told that they are already accepted in the Kingdom of God without seeking to change their evil ways.

    It is a gospel that allows people to live their former lives without repentance with having in min what may have to called as an insurance cover that will not allow one to go to hell. This gospel is deceptive and a lot of people are buying into it.

    Paul says flee from this as this will not lead anyone into the Kingdom of God and yes as our Lord said “they will cause many to be led astray.”

    Yes a lot of people in church have really acquired the number of man because of their mindset and actions.

    We are living truly in end of the age.

  242. seeker says:

    Mr. Lule,

    The ones preaching this false gospel will be judged, but so will we as the bible which has the true gospel (to set us free) is available for everyone to read.

    Most people I’ve spoken to have not read the bible and then the ones that claim they have read it have no answeres to any biblical questions and can not hold a scripturally based conversation.

    As a famous scripture says by their frutis you shall know them. The ones who preach this false gospel can be shown thru bible scriptures. They are voultures. No bad tree can produce good fruit and vise versa…

    Keep it coming Mr. Lule, nobody is perfect but God uses each of us according to his talent and there is nothing wrong with words of encouragement to a fellow brother/sister.

    But one good fruit I’ve seen in you so far is Humility. That is good.

    seeker.

  243. Joseph Lule says:

    Seeker,

    Surely the Lord will judge all of us because of our actions, it is just that they are fulfilling the Word of the Lord and we are all being warned to guard our hearts and surely they will be judged harshly.
    Truly by their fruits they will be known.
    Thanks again and May God use you and make you His vessel telling people to be ready for His coming for the days are nigh.

  244. Joseph Lule says:

    I had just to share this and have taken a quote from http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cgrowth/mkt.htm
    just to show where the new gospel and what Paul would say another gospel has come to:-

    “The new gospel is a liberation from low self-esteem, a freedom from emptiness and loneliness, a means of fulfillment and excitement, a way to receive your heart’s desires, a means of meeting our needs. The old gospel was about God; the new gospel is about us. The old gospel was about sin; the new gospel is about needs. The old gospel was about our need for righteousness; the new gospel is about our need for fulfillment. The old gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing; the new gospel is attractive. Many are flocking to the new gospel, but it is altogether questionable how many are actually being saved. In a moment of reflection on the validity of the methods used at Willow Creek, Hybels himself asked the audience, “How many of us have been vaccinated with a mild case of Christianity? How many among us have the real disease” (as quoted by Pritchard, p. 316)?”

  245. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    I read the link and wonder of wonders, I agree with every thing in the article. However, it seems to me that the problems of the Church are even more basic. We are not told to build buildings, but to build the Church, which are the people of God. Building buildings and maintaining them enslaves the builders to money: as does paying someone to be an expert in the word of God (Spiritual Leader).

    We take very young men and send them to collage to train them to be leaders and as soon as they graduate, we put them in some role as an overseer. We are told not to do that.

    1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

    Ministers justify reimbursement with 1Timothy 5:18, “For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” “, but the wages of an elder is double honor, not money.

    It seems to me that everyone should work with their hands, as Paul did and as he told others to do.

    Perhaps it is easer for me to see, than for those who are part of the organized Church, but even from my viewpoint, it is not easy.

  246. seeker says:

    Joseph Lule,

    I was just wondering about your thoughts in regards to an eternal hell. Also if you believe in this how would you explain Psalms 37 vs9-11,38?

  247. Joseph Lule says:

    Paul says there are several foundations stones that should be known by a Christian which are stated in Heb 6:1-2 and eternal Judgment is one of them.
    Heb 6:1-2 says “ Because of this, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us be borne on to full growth, not laying down again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of dead ones, and of eternal judgment.”

    What is eternal judgment?

    In Mat 12:36 Jesus says “But I say to you, that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give an account of it in Judgment Day.”
    Which is reinforced in 1 Peter 4:17 “Because the time has come to begin the judgment from the house of God; and if firstly from us, what will be the end of the ones disobeying the gospel of God?” which is also buttress by Paul in 2Co 5:10 For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to what he did, whether good or bad.
    This all means that all will be judged and those in Christ will be judged first followed by those who do not know God.

    Eternal Judgment

    For Jesus says in that Day of Judgment, as stated in Mat 13:41-43 the Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all the offenses, and those who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. Then the righteous will shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears to hear, let him hear.

    For one Jesus says that all who commit offences and practice lawlessness would be thrown into the furnace of fire, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Again in Mat 25:40-46 Jesus was elaborating what would happen in the Day of Judgment
    “And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, In so far as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me. Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I hungered, and you did not give Me a thing to eat. I thirsted and you did not give Me a thing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, In so far as you did not do it to one of these, the least, neither did you do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

    In one place our Lord says all who commit offences and practice lawlessness would be thrown into the furnace of fire, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and in the second says these shall go away into everlasting punishment.
    What do you mean by what the Lord says they would be thrown into the furnace of fire, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and shall go away into everlasting punishment?

    I believe Jesus describes it in Mar 9:43-44 where He says “And if your hands offend you, cut it off. For it is profitable for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go away into Hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not put out.” Which also was buttressed by Isaiah where he says and writes in Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.”

    It is a place prepared for the Devil and his angels where the fire is unquenchable and the worm and maggots does not die which is further explained in Isaiah 14:11-19

    “Your majesty is lowered into Sheol; the noise of your harps. The maggot is spread under you; yea, the worms cover you. Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones. All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us? Your majesty is lowered into Sheol; the noise of your harps. The maggot is spread under you; yea, the worms cover you. Oh shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens! You weakening the nations, you are cut down to the ground. For you have said In your heart, I will go up to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit in the mount of meeting, in the sides of the north. I will rise over the heights of the clouds; I will be compared to the Most High. Yet you shall go down to Sheol, to the sides of the Pit. They that see you shall stare and closely watch you, saying, Is this the man who made the earth tremble, shaking kingdoms, making the world like a wilderness, and who tore down its cities; he did not open a house for his prisoners? All kings of nations, all of them lie in glory, each man in his house. But you are thrown from your grave like a despised branch, like the covering of the slain, those pierced by the sword, those who go down into the stones of the Pit, like a dead body trampled under foot. You shall not be united with them in burial, because you ruined your land; you have slain your people; the seed of evildoers shall never be named.”

    For the Lord had said this was prepared for the Devil and his angels as stated in Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels.”

    For we are told to fear God as stated in Matthew 10:28 “And you should not fear the ones killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him being able to destroy both soul and body in Hell. “

    For this is what was shown to John stated in Revelation 19:20, 20:10, 13-15 and 21:8
    “And the beast was seized, and with this one the false prophet doing signs before it, by which he led astray those having received the mark of the beast, and those worshiping its image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone……And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages….And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works. And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire…..But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Just as it is stated above it is a place where the beast and false prophet will be thrown alive into the Lake of fire and will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages and the devil will follow and then anyone not found having been written in the Book of Life, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

    That means they will be tormented day and night in an age that has no time and that is called eternal and that is why it is said that the judgment is eternal.

    And I believe psalms 37 vs9-11, 38 is a exhortation to the righteous that though you may see the wicked prosper in their wicked things they shall be cut off and the righteous shall not see the wicked prosper in their wicked things for God will destroy them.
    I believe being destroyed means being judged by God and being cut off from His presence thereby driven away from the presence of God to the lake of fire. Thereby they are cut of from His Kingdom and people and the wicked shall not again be witnessed prospering in their wicked ways.

  248. seeker says:

    Joseph Lule/astudent,

    According to Mathew 10:28 you should fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell….This is what I beleive happens in hell. You will be destroyed. Eternal Judgement in hell means eterneal destruction. No more chances of a resurrection.

    if hell is a place of eternal punishment why would the text say it is a place where your soul can be destroyed? If some soul can be accidentally killed off then it would no longer be eternal. Or would God bring back the person to life again to be punished?

    Another quote “And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them.” —- now if Hell is giving up the dead then it is going against the eternal destruction. As the dead it gave up would not be in hell anymore….right? What we need to ask ourselves. what really is hell? Isn’t the word hell sometimes used to describe a grave?

    God is a God of love. In all we see on the Earth there is nothing that contradicts this. Why do we now think that he would eternaly punish people in hell?

    This is another bad teaching. It is used to frighten us and make us forget that God is a God of love. For no one can have love and torture other souls for eternity.

  249. seeker says:

    http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/special1.htm

    This link is interesting and goes on to further explain some of my points above.

  250. astudent says:

    seeker,

    Have you read my post “Hell is not a punishment from God”?

  251. Joseph Lule says:

    What is death and why is there a first and second death?
    Once we have understood death then we will understand hell and its purpose and the second death.
    To understand what death is we must look at the beginning with the creation of man.
    In Gen 1:26-27 And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. And God created the man in His own image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

    Man was made in the image and likeness of God thereby becoming a spirit being and in Genesis 2:7 Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The man being a spirit being was breathed out of Jehovah God and was blown into the nostrils of the physical body which was formed out of dust from the ground and thereby became a living soul.
    Thereby man became a spirit being who inhabited a physical body and who was covered with the glory of God.
    In Gen 2:15-17 we are told that “And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the Garden of Eden, to work it and to keep it. And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden; but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die”

    He was warned not to eat the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and thereby also told that if he ate he would die.
    Please remember that man was a spirit inhabiting a physical body.
    Basically what was God saying that if he disobeyed Him he would die a physical death and or a spiritual death?
    When the serpent came and deceived Eve as stated in Gen 3:6-7 And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise. And she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed leaves of the fig tree, and made girdles for themselves.
    Basically sin entered into their hearts they were covered with shame and that is why immediately they recognized they were naked they sewed leaves of the fig tree, and made girdles for themselves.
    We are told in Rom 5:12 …….sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.

    So because Adam sinned against God, sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men.
    What is this death?
    First after the fall of man the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out of his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live for ever….after he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life ”
    In an explanation Paul tries to bring about the state of man after the fall when he says,
    So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
    We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
    As it is it is no longer myself who do it, but it is sin living in me, I know that nothing good lives in me, that is my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in my members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God- through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to Gods law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
    Paul is saying that the conscience of man bears the witness of God but the Spirit clearly says that in latter times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teaching will come from through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

    The Apostle Paul is saying that when a man’s conscience is seared with iron suppressing the light that’s in them, their mind becomes a prisoner of sin, and by their acts committing evil thereby all these actions produce death and in rebellion to the truth of God the spirit, soul and mind of man becomes darkness thereby produces death.
    So this can be described as sin took the place of the Spirit of God thereby sin ruled in death which brought shame and no longer was man covered with God but with death.
    This is explained by Paul in the book of Romans that God allowed as sin ruled in death, so also grace might rule through righteousness to everlasting life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Please remember that death to God means lawlessness because He is not there as He is life, For God’s wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness, because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them.

    This process stated above takes place before the actual physical death of the earthly body.
    We know very well that physical death is a reality for it is stated in Gen 3: 19 for you have been taken out of it; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.
    Now man being a spirit being breathed out of God when the physical death occurs and where does the spirit man go? In Ecc 3:21 Solomon does asks himself this question “Who knows the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?” Where he later says in Ecc 12:7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
    This means that spirits shall return to God who gave it and Him only will decide what do with the spirit that returns to Him.
    Basically what the bible is saying is that before one dies a physical death one will have to make a choice as stated in Deu 30:15 Behold, I have set before you today life and good and death and evil, and to choose to be a slave of obedience as stated in Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

    For as stated in Romans 5:21 it says that as sin ruled in death, so also grace might rule through righteousness to everlasting life, through Jesus Christ our Lord. For the one sowing to his flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit.
    So God was saying as stated in Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all for His purpose, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil and as Solomon said in Ecc 3:17 I said in my heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every good purpose and for every work.
    For it is stated in Job 21:30 for the wicked is kept for the day of calamity; they shall be brought to the day of wrath, and also stated in Psalms 11:6 He shall rain snares on the wicked; fire and brimstone and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.

    Also the psalmist says Psalms 21:8-9 Your hand shall find out all Your enemies; Your right hand shall find out those hating You. You shall set them as a fiery furnace in the time of Your presence; Jehovah will swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire will devour them.

    For the wicked the bible says in Psa 49:14 like sheep, they are appointed to Sheol. Death shall reign for them. And upright ones shall rule over them in the morning; and their form is for rotting; Sheol is home for him.
    And Peter when explaining the resurrection of Christ said in the book of Acts 2:29-35 Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us until this day. Being a prophet, then, and knowing that God swore with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loin, as concerning flesh, to raise the Christ to sit on his throne, see Psa. 132:11 foreseeing, he spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, “that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.” LXX-Psa. 15:10; Mt-Psa. 16:10 This Jesus, God raised up, of which we all are witnesses. Then being exalted to the right of God, and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He poured out this which you now see and hear. For David did not ascend into Heaven, but he says, “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand until I place those hostile to You as a footstool for Your feet.” LXX-Psa. 109:1; MT-Psa. 110:1

    For David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption” confirming what is written Psalms 9:17 the wicked shall be turned to Sheol, all the nations forgetting God.

    The bible confirms that there is a place as written in the New Testament called Hades which corresponds to Sheol in the Old Testament where our Lord Jesus was no left, nor did His flesh see corruption.

    This place prepared for the wicked who allowed sin to reign in their lives is as stated Psalms 49:14 are “like sheep, they are appointed to Sheol. Death shall reign for them. And upright ones shall rule over them in the morning; and their form is for rotting; Sheol is home for him.”

    Basically what the Paul meant that when this corruptible (earthly body) shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, “Death was swallowed up in victory.” Isa. 25:8 “O death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?” Hos. 13:14

    That is why Christ our Lord says in Rev 1:18 and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death.
    Sin which reigned in death has been swallowed up in victory by our Lord Jesus and that is why He has the keys to hell, and of death.
    What is Sheol and or Hades that our Lord has its keys?
    For Psalms says in 55:15 Desolation be upon them!(the wicked) They go down into Sheol alive, for evils are among them in their dwelling.
    This is also confirmed Num 16:30 Moses said “And if Jehovah makes a new thing, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them, and all that they have, and they go down alive to Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised Jehovah.”

    This is a place that also described in Song of Solomon 8:6 set me as a seal on Your heart, as a seal on Your arm. For love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as Sheol; its flames are flames of fire, a flame of Jehovah.

    Which is also confirmed in Deu 32:20-22 And He said, I will hide My face from them; I will see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faithfulness. They made Me jealous with a not-a-god; they made Me angry by their vanities; and I shall make them jealous by a not-a-people; by a foolish nation I shall make them angry. For a fire has been kindled in My anger, and it burns to the lowest Sheol, and consumes the earth and its produce; and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    For Isaiah describes it 5:14 So Sheol has enlarged its appetite, and opened its mouth without measure, and her glory and her multitude, and her uproar, he who exults in her, shall come down in it and also further in Isaiah 14:9 Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
    And also it is a place where the Lord says the devil will be placed as stated in Isa 14:11-15 Your majesty is lowered into Sheol; the noise of your harps. The maggot is spread under you; yea, the worms cover you, Oh shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens! You weakening the nations, you are cut down to the ground. For you have said In your heart, I will go up to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit in the mount of meeting, in the sides of the north. I will rise over the heights of the clouds; I will be compared to the Most High. Yet you shall go down to Sheol, to the sides of the Pit.

    And also confirmed in Revelation 20:1-3 and I saw an angel coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time.

    I believe it is place that has been kept for the wicked awaiting the Great Judgment Day that is described in Revelation 20:11-14 where John describes it:-
    “And I saw a Great White Throne, and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled; and a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works. And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.”

    The second death

    Please note our Lord Jesus was telling a gathering of the Great White Judgment of what would happen when all people would appear before him as state in:-

    “‘Mat 25:40-46 And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, In so far as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me. Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I hungered, and you did not give Me a thing to eat. I thirsted and you did not give Me a thing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, In so far as you did not do it to one of these, the least, neither did you do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

    If you look at verse 41 Jesus said Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. This He says regards an everlasting fire that John describes the second death (the lake of fire) was prepared for the Devil and his angels and not for Man.

    This was done to make man understand that God does not enjoy wickedness and as stated in Proverbs 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Jehovah and depart from evil for the fear of Jehovah is to hate evil;

    For the everlasting fire was prepared for the Devil and not man so that we may know as stated in Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He and also as stated in Psalms 5:4 For You are not a God enjoying wickedness; nor shall evil live with You.

    Plainly what God was telling man that please do not commune with the evil one, Please do not agree with him for his ways will lead to death and also as Paul exhorts in Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation, in horror fleeing from evil, cleaving to the good.

    Flee from evil for the devil ways are death, for the Lord has prepared a terrible punishment for him and his angels.

    God basically wanted to show man of His Love which includes His severity and also to show men how He deals with evil and it should be noted that as stated in Rom 11:22 Behold, then, the kindness and severity of God: On those having fallen, severity. But on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise, you will also be cut off.

    Please note that Mathew 10:28 that states you should fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell is the same as stated in Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom you should fear; fear the One who after the killing has authority to cast into Hell; yea, I say to you, Fear that One!

  252. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    As usual, I agree with most of what you said. However, I do not quite understand your statement that Hell was not made for man.

    If God knows the future and has prepared a Hell and godless men will be thrown into it, then I would say Hell is prepared for man. Of course, it is also prepared for Satan and his angels. Angels are only messengers, so anyone and everyone is an angel (messenger). We are either an angel of God, or an angel of Satan. Some times rather than what we say, our actions show us to be either angels of God or angels of Satan, but we still proclaim our message. (God’s way is right, or Satan’s way is right.)

    To me the first and second death are very simple. Death is separation. The first death is a physical death, or a complete separation from the earth and everything physical. The second death is a spiritual death, or a complete separation from God. Both are permanent with no chance of reversal.

  253. astudent says:

    seeker,

    The link that you cited is a link to someone that does not understand the two deaths. As I have said, the first death is physical and the second death is spiritual. Therefore, it is possible to be both dead and alive.

    The one who sins is alive physically and dead spiritually and the one who overcomes, even though they may be dead physically, are alive spiritually.

    I might add that the only life that is important is the spiritual one.

    Christians seem to want to deny Hell, because we think a loving God would not torture anyone forever.

    I also do not believe God would do such a thing. I believe that the torture in Hell is self-inflicted. Those in Hell will have eternity to think about what they should have done and did not do, or what they should not have done and did do.

    We understand fire as causing physical pain, but those in Hell will be only spiritual, not physical, and the fire in hell will be their memories, not a physical fire.

    If God made everything and He has someone thrown out of what He made, then He has him or her thrown into a great abyss: a place of nothing.

    We are commanded to ‘Do to others, as we would have others do to us”. Would it be obeying that rule to ask God to live forever with His enemies? Would you want to live forever with your enemies? Could you ever rest if your enemies surrounded you?

    Have you ever thought that there can be no darkness without light? No cold without heat?

    If the temperature were to be set at 70 degrees and never changed, there would be no difference, no hot or cold. Even the two words would not exist.

    The same can be said of goodness and evil. Without evil, how could we understand how good God is?

    Without Hell, could there be a Heaven? How would you know that you were in Heaven without knowing what it would be like out of Heaven?

  254. seeker says:

    Dear Astudent,

    I understand what you have written but i beleive from everything I have read in the bible that hell will be destoyed along with death, suffering, pain….

    The soul can be destroyed. People don’t want to beleive this but it brings me peace. I guess it also depends on what you beleive a soul to be. Did the bible say that God put a soul in a body or that the body became a living soul? Your body is a living soul with the aid of his breath (his force). When you are dead you are not conscious. According to Jesus Lazarus was as if he were asleep. Jesus compared death to a sleep (unconciousness)

    Why do you think we will have new bodies upon resurrecting?

    Anyway I will rest my arguments here as we are both strongly pursuaded to our own sides.

  255. astudent says:

    seeker,

    I see an underlying reason that you believe the way that you do (it brings you peace).

    What ever happens to unbelievers will not upset you later as God will wipe away all mourning and tears. That is what comforts me when I think about someone who rejects God.

    Hell is for nonbelievers and it should be spoken about by those who believe. Unbelievers should know about the penalties of sin. It doesn’t concern us, as we have overcome the world, but aren’t we responsible for teaching those who do not share the Holy Spirit? Even if it temporally upsets us?

    The verse says the “man” became a living soul, not the “body” became a living soul. That is KJV as the NIV says man became a living being.

    Jesus spoke about the first death as sleep, because he had yet to die for us. After He died then (2Co 5:8 NIV) “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” As I understand, we will not sleep.

    We need new bodies, because these waste away. The new bodies will be like the one Jesus has, it will not suffer decay.

    I hope that we are not arguing to prove either correct, but only to gain insight and understanding. Everyone’s views of Scripture are worth considering. No one is perfect in knowledge, so it helps to question every thing and every one. At least it helps me and I thank you for all your comments: past, present, and I hope future.

  256. adonis700 says:

    Hey I guess the search for understanding this number is going to allure us for the entire journey!! But I just bumped into something else that I found interesting.

    I don’t think Strong’s concordance did this intentionally but if you look up in the Greek the word for the number 666 you get

    APOUSIA – A Being Away, Absence

    It’s only found once in Phillipians 2:12
    “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” KJV

    in the KJV Apousia is translated as Absence.

    Who on earth claims to be here in God’s absence?

    Then I went to see what the Hebrew strong’s number had:

    APHER – A Covering, Bandage over, like using Ashes.

    And it’s found only twice in 1 Kings 20:38,41
    “So the prophet departed , and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with ashes upon his face.

    And he hasted , and took the ashes away from his face; and the king of Israel discerned him that he was of the prophets.” KJV

    In the KJV Apher is translated as Ashes.

    Who on earth covers their face or forehead with Ashes?

    I know I’m kinda going out of the limb here, but i figured after 256 posts I thought I could still come up with something that no one has mentioned yet!!

    Ofcourse the answers, to me, all leads to Roman Catholicism…

  257. astudent says:

    adonis700,

    I think it is Paul speaking and it is his absence that he refers too: not God’s absence.

    I thought it odd also, when I read of covering ones face with ashes. Your comment made me think about it again and I believe that I understand it now.

    God told His people (Jer 6:26 NIV) “O my people, put on sackcloth and roll in ashes; mourn with bitter wailing as for an only son, for suddenly the destroyer will come upon us.” When someone realized they were wrong, they often put on sackcloth and ashes. Perhaps the sackcloth covered their body and the ashes covered their face. To me it symbolizes a complete covering for sin, which is Jesus Christ.

    Usually the word used for ashes is epher (H665). I don’t know why apher (H666) was used in I kings.

    Shouldn’t the answers all lead to God?

  258. Joseph Lule says:

    Astudent,

    Sorry for the delay in writing and thanks for the thought i had not seen it and now i see that hell and second death was made for the devil and his messengers in that anybody including God’s angels and man and who would side with the devil then they would receive there reward which is the second death which is a complete separation from God.
    Also i have learnt that Jesus preached about hell so that we men could know how terrible it was and we would try hard and seek to enter into the Kingdom of God for narrow is the road that leads to life.

  259. Joseph Lule says:

    By the way I wanted to share this for it is contrary to what is taught in the main churches.

    Kindly note that in the book of the Gospels Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all talk about the signs of the coming of our Lord and yet John who was with Jesus when He said this was not allowed to write about it in the book of John.

    You might have asked yourself just as I asked why?

    This is what I said is not shared in churches as you will notice that the book of revelation is a an explanation of what Jesus said to his disciples as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple giving what is called the Olivet prophesy.

    Let’s take the book of Matthew 24 with the book of Revelation especially regarding the opening of seals.

    Mat 24:4-5 and answering, Jesus said to them, See that not any leads you astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ. And they will cause many to be led astray.

    Rev 6:1-2 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals. And I heard one of the four living creatures, like a sound of thunder, saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold, a white horse! And the one sitting on it had a bow. And a crown was given to him, and he went out overcoming, and that he might overcome.

    In Matthew it says see that not any leads you astray for many will come in the name of Jesus saying, I am the Christ. And they will cause many to be led astray and if you take a look at when Jesus was opening the seals one of the four living creatures calls the white horse with one sitting on it with a bow to come out and go to overcome.

    Please note that the one sitting on the white horse is trying to imitate and be like Jesus who is to come in a white horse as stated in revelation 19:11 and thereby trying to deceive the church.
    By the way you may ask why the church, please note it is only the church that believes in Christ and why would the world be deceived of Christ if they are already deceived, the warning not to be deceived was to the church and not the world.

    Why? Because the churches had become luke-warm and God was now not interested in them and now was spitting them out of His mouth, by sending them a white horse with a rider who has bows who would separate them from God by deceiving them to accept another Gospel and another Jesus.

    This remembers was to fulfill what is written in the bible that they will be apostasy that will lead to God sending them a delusion and leading them to accepting a lie.

    Please note that first there must be falling away before the Anti-Christ is revealed for he will succeed only after there has been a falling away of the church and the power of God is no longer in church which is the Holy Spirit.

    Remember this is the first trigger or what is called the first seal being opened leading to the return of Christ and thereafter six other seals must be opened before the actual return of Christ as stated in Revelation: 19:11-21.

    You may ask what about rupture? It is there but will be explained with the explanation of opening of the other seals.

  260. Joseph Lule says:

    In Mat 24:6 Jesus says but you are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See, do not be terrified. For all things must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will be raised against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
    Rev 6:3-4 and when He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, Come and see. And another horse went out, red. And it was given to the one sitting on it to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another. And a great sword was given to him.

    This itself is self explanatory that when the second seal is opened a second horse went out who was given power to take peace and thereby bringing war as Jesus said that there will be wars and rumors of war.

    Please remember that it is a dispensation where there is the fall of the church where the church has fallen from worshiping God and became luke-warm and this horse was sent to heighten and prepare the way for the rise of anti-Christ and that is why nations will raise against nations and kingdom against kingdom.

    Mat 24:7 and there will be famines,
    Rev 6:5-6 And when He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and the one sitting on it having a balance in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenixes of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.

    What is the meaning of famines? It is a severe shortage of food resulting in widespread hunger and or extreme hunger and starvation.

    Jesus is and was saying that just before His return there will be widespread hunger and starvation and as stated in the book of revelation a black horse, and the one sitting on it having a balance in his hand is released to the world. His release is to make sure that the economies of the world are broken creating a situation whereby a day earnings for an individual will only take care of his food and not family and this situation then therefore leads to a severe hunger as a great number of people cannot take care of themselves.

    Mat 24:7 and there will be famines and plagues
    Rev 6:7-8 And when He opened the fourth seal, I heard a voice of the fourth living creature saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold, a pale green horse, and the name of the one sitting on it was Death; and Hades followed after him. And authority was given to them to kill over the fourth of the earth with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    Jesus is and was saying that time before His return (in the falling away dispensation) there will be widespread hunger and starvation and a rise of epidemic diseases and this is explained in the book of revelation where it states a pale green horse, and the name of the one sitting on it was Death; and Hades followed after him. And authority was given to them to kill over the fourth of the earth with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth. Basically this pale horse was given power kill with sword which is war, with famine which is severe food shortage and with death be it diseases.

    It should be noted that all these horses are sent to do the will of God preparing the scene for Anti-Christ rise who would delude the world and because of the apostasy he would lead the people to himself, because of war he will promise world peace, because of famine and plagues he will promise a system that would take care of the needs of the people and people needed to receive a mark on their head and hand to transact in business.

    All these horses were sent because people hearts had became hardened and just like Israelites when they fell during the reigns of their kings He told them that they would die by sword, famine and death. It is a time when the Lord is asking people to turn away from evil just as He warned the Israelites with the prophets.

    Please note these people have hardened hearts and have seared their consciences.

  261. Joseph Lule says:

    All these triggers or four seals prepare for the coming of the anti-Christ and once he is on the throne please note what powers he has been given as stated in revelation 13 : 7 And it was given to it “to war with the saints, and to overcome them.” And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21

    If we go back to Paul in his writing he says that for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work only He who now restrains will do now so until He is taken out of the way.

    Basically the authority given to anti-Christ will only be exercised after the Holy Spirit is taken away with the Church that He will keep from great-trial.

    I believe that after the release of the forth horse, the Lord will call His Church to Himself to allow for the reign of the anti-Christ.

    This will now march with Matthew 24:9-14 and Rev 6:9

    Where it states

    Mat 24:9-14 then they will deliver you up to affliction, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. And then many will be offended, and they will deliver up one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will be raised and will cause many to err. And because lawlessness shall have been multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, that one will be kept safe. And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

    Rev 6:9 and when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those having been slain for the Word of God, and for the witness which they had. And they cried with a great voice, saying, Until when, holy and true Master, do You not judge and take vengeance for our blood, from those dwelling on the earth? And there was given to each one a white robe. And it was said to them that they should rest yet a little time, until might be fulfilled also the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers, those being about to be killed, even as they.

    Please note the beast was given power to war with the saints, and to overcome them, and this power can only exercised after the Holy Spirit has been taken away.

    The fifth seal is opened and a command is given for the martyrs to wait for the number of those to be killed by the anti- Christ is attained and thereafter a sixth seal is opened where a great earthquake occurs.

    In Mathew the earth quake is mentioned first in verse 7 and which I believe that plans would be already there on how to make war and between fifth and six seals there is great persecution for those Christians who were left and could not be taken away in rupture. And because of lawlessness many will be offended, and they will deliver up one another and will hate one another and those who are called by His name will be killed as stated in Rev 13 the beast was given power to war with the saints, and to overcome them.

  262. Joseph Lule says:

    For the seventh seal to be opened something terrible must happen that would make heaven go silent for half an hour which would allow God to tell His angels blow the seven trumpets.

    I believe this is explained in Matthew 24:15-22 where it states

    Mat 24:15 Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand), Dan. 11:31; 12:11then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; the one on the housetop, let him not go down to take anything out of his house; and the one in the field, let him not turn back to take his garment. But woe to the ones having a child in womb, and to those suckling in those days! And pray that your flight will not occur in winter nor in a sabbath. For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. And except those days were shortened, not any flesh would be saved. But on account of the elect, those days will be shortened.

    This is where the institution of worship of the beast is adopted whereby the beast causes the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the freemen and the slaves, to have a mark on their right hand, or on their foreheads, even that not any could buy or sell, except the one having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.

    This is the abomination of desolation as the beast will cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed basically fulfilling the bible by stopping the worship of the Almighty God of Israel and causing many to worship the beast and thereby placing the abomination of desolation at the heart of man where God is supposed to reside.

    This is what Jesus was saying that when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place let the reader understand because those days will be terrible days considering the blowing of the seven trumpets. The first trumpet released hail and fire mixed with blood to the world, the second trumpet released And something as a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, the third trumpet released And a great burning star, like a lamp, fell out of the heaven. And it fell onto the third part of the rivers, and onto the springs of waters. The forth trumpet released And the third part of the sun, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars, was struck, that the third part of them might be darkened, and the third part of the day might not appear; and in the same way the night.

    The fifth trumpet released and a star out of the heaven falling onto the earth was given the key to the pit of the abyss. And he opened the pit of the abyss. And smoke went up out of the pit, like smoke of a great furnace. And the sun was darkened, and the air, by the smoke of the pit. And out of the smoke locusts came forth to the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority and their authority is to harm men five months.

    The sixth trumpet released the four angels, those having been bound at the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were released, those having been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, that they should kill the third part of men. And the number of the armies of the cavalry was two myriads of myriads.
    The seventh trumpet consist of seven angels with trumpets even angels having the last seven plagues, because the anger of God was completed in them.

    The first went away and poured out his bowl onto the earth. And it came to be a bad and evil sore onto the men, the ones having the mark of the beast, and the ones worshiping its image. And the second angel poured out his bowl onto the sea. And it became blood, as of a dead one, and every soul of life died in the sea. And the third angel poured out his bowl onto the rivers, and onto the springs of the waters; and it became blood.

    The fourth angel poured out his bowl onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire. And men were burned with great heat. The fifth angel poured out his bowl onto the throne of the beast. And its kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues from the pain. And they blasphemed the God of Heaven,

    And the sixth angel poured out his bowl onto the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the earth, even of the whole habitable world to assemble them to the war of that day, the great day of God Almighty.

    The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a great voice came from the throne from the temple of Heaven, saying, It has happened! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since man came into being on the earth, such a huge earthquake, so great! And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath. And every island fled away, and mountains were not found. And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven upon men. And men blasphemed God from the plague of the hail, because its plague is exceedingly great.

    Please note during all this time Jesus was warning in Matthew 23-26 where it says. Then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ! Or, Here! Do not believe. For false christs and false prophets will rise up. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I tell you beforehand. Then if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness; do not go out. Behold, He is in the inner rooms; do not believe.

    And yes just as the sounding of the seventh and a great voice came from the throne from the temple of Heaven, saying, It has happened! Yes the return has come for as stated in Matthew 24:27-30 For as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines as far as the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man. For wherever the dead body may be, there the eagles will be gathered. And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13

    Which is confirmed in Revelation 19:11-22 states And I saw Heaven being opened. And, behold! A white horse, and He sitting on it having been called Faithful and True. And He judges and wars in righteousness. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head many diadems, having a name that had been written, which no one knows except Himself; and having been clothed in a garment which had been dipped in blood. And His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, being dressed in fine linen, white and pure. And out of His mouth goes forth a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations. And He will shepherd them with an iron rod. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of God Almighty. And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name having been written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds flying in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of chiliarchs, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and of the ones sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both freemen and slaves, even of the small and great. And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth, and their armies being assembled to make war with the One sitting on the horse, and with His army. And the beast was seized, and with this one the false prophet doing signs before it, by which he led astray those having received the mark of the beast, and those worshiping its image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword of the One sitting on the horse, the sword having gone forth from His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

    Please see Jesus says in Matthew for wherever the dead body may be, there the eagles will be gathered. And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, which is confirmed by John in book of revelation where the Angel says in Revelation 19 come and gather together to the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of chiliarchs, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and of the ones sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both freemen and slaves, even of the small and great and also the fifth angel of the last trumpet where he poured out his bowl onto the throne of the beast and its kingdom became darkened.

  263. Joseph Lule says:

    All these i would say bible explains bible and i believe that the revelation of John was given to him to help the church understand the times and as described by an angel in the book of Daniel 12:11 And from the time the regular sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that desolates set up, a thousand, two hundred and ninety days shall occur. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand, three hundred and thirty five days.

  264. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    You certainly do not have to apologies for delays. I am even more guilty of delays and it is the blog that I started. You more than make up for delays by what you say in your comments. I can wait. After all, we live forever. What are a few days?

    I am elated that God has given you a more complete understanding of death and hell.

    For those who might read these comments, please understand that though the thoughts were from me, understanding is from God and I do not claim to be the teacher.

    God has not given me; or rather I am to slow to understand Revelations. I am grateful that you take the time to share your thoughts on the subject.

    I missed the fact that the first rider was a counterfeit Christ. It makes sense to me, after you pointed it out. The rider could not be Jesus, because the Lamb was opening the seals: not riding horses.

    Jesus said (Luke 13:20&21 NIV) Again he asked, “What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

    Yeast is always used for a symbol of sin and it seems to me that the bow that the white horse rider carried is the yeast that the woman mixed into the flower. The word translated as bow is “toxon” and it comes from the word “tikto”, which means to produce from seed as a mother or a plant.

    The church should be without yeast, but a little yeast has worked all through the world and all through the church. The yeast of Adam was small, but it has become large. The sin of the church has come from man’s ideas that only seemed good. As it is said, ‘The road to Hell is paved with good intentions’.

    There is little power of God in the church today. A proper church service is explained in 1 Corinthians 14. Everyone should prophesy (14:24). (1 Cor 14:26 NIV) “What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.” It is not done and because it is not the church is weak.

    The church is weak, because only one man, the preacher, prophesies. It seemed good, that a man that understood much should teach the others, but the result is only one prophet speaks. (1 Cor 14:29 NIV) “Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.” The congregation just listens and are not permitted to prophesy. The church did not become weak overnight. This practice is firmly established.

    Tithing proves that the church has turned from serving God, to serving money. It is taught as an obligation when it was really an example to the individual of how much they were blessed. I have never tithed and I do not know anyone that has. If anyone thinks that they have tithed, as in the Old Testament, they should read the verses that explain it and then determine if they have done as God told Israel to do.

    As I read your thoughts I have a problem with the rapture. You say that the Holy Spirit will be removed with the saints. That sounds right, because the Holy Spirit, or Consular, is part of everyone that is a Christian. We will not be separated by God, so if the Spirit goes, then we must also. My problem, or question is, how could the anti-Christ overcome the saints, if they are not there?

    Actually, I have a problem with the rapture as it is usually taught. When I read the verses that speak of who is taken and who is left and compare it with verses that speak about the timing of the end, I find that the weeds are collected first and then the wheat.

    Except in Revelations 14, where Jesus reaped before those who were gathered and threw into the winepress of God’s wrath. But then Jesus began to reap, or told others to reap, even when he was on this earth, so he has been reaping for two thousand years.

    The understanding of the rapture is usually explained with the verses in Luke (17:43-37). But consider Luke 17:37 (NIV) “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

    Jesus is not dead and neither are any of his subjects. Birds are symbols of unclean beings. They inhabit the air and Satan is prince of the air. It seems to me that the ones taken are taken to be with their prince: not Jesus.

    (1 Th 4:16 NIV) “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” The saved are alive in Christ: not dead in Christ. (1 Th 4:17 NIV) “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

    This presents a funny mental image to me. Suppose that one Sunday you go to church and just before Communion is passed, everyone else disappears! If you believe in the rapture that is commonly taught, you will probably panic. But if you are sure in your mind that Jesus came and died for you, if you believe in your Savior, your panic will subside. First the weeds and then the wheat.

    I will think about your comments more and perhaps the Lord will use them to help me understand Revelations better. Thank you Joseph Lule. You are a man of truth. (Be careful of complements). (And those who complement)

  265. Michelle says:

    the number of a man is solomon’s yearly weight of gold, found in 1 kings 10:14. it says 666 is the number of a man and not of any beast.

  266. Michelle says:

    the mark of the beast is about economy and not a person. when it says it’s the # of a man, solomon yearly weight of gold is six hundred and sixty six talents of gold and gold represents the economical of the world.

  267. astudent says:

    Michelle,

    The number 666 does indeed appear in 1 Kings 10:14. However, it is the weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly. It is the same number as the number of man, beast, and mark of the beast that is stated in Revelations. Your statement “it says 666 is the number of a man and not of any beast” is not correct. The Bibe does say 666 is the number of the beast.

    Rev 13:16-18 (NIV) He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.

    Man’s number is the same number as the beast and the mark of the beast is the name of the beast, so it is also 666.

    I believe that you are correct when you say that the mark of the beast is about the economy, because no one will be able to buy or sell without the mark. However, the number is more than the number of the mark.

    I see that you stopped thinking about the beast and man having the same number when the Spirit showed you part of the understanding of the mark of the beast, which is the economy, or the control of the economy.

    Perhaps I did also when the Spirit gave me the understanding of 666 as applied to man.

    Actually, the number is the same number for anyone or anything that opposes God. That is the common factor that all share.

    Money (gold) is another master that cannot be served along with God (Mat 6:24 & Luke 16:13), so it opposes God. If you view money as a spider then the economy is its web.

    Satan is an animal (beast) and all of his angels are beasts. Animals only think of themselves and do not follow the second royal law (Do to others, as you would have them do to you), so they also oppose God.

    Men that will not accept Jesus as their savior also oppose God.

    Money is a thing and cannot accept Jesus.

    Satan is a beast, the prince of beasts and not only will not accept Jesus, but wars against God.

    A man that will not accept Jesus is a six and the only way he can become a new number (7) is by accepting Jesus the one (1) and only son of God. He was born a 6, remains a 6, and will always be a 6 or one can say a 666.

    One can also make the connection that all things that God has made are still in the sixth day. The verse that says God rested (Gen 2:2) is prophetic as God has not yet entered His rest (John 5:17). When we accept Jesus, we inter into the seventh day (Heb 4:3). No more 666.

  268. Daniel says:

    I’m sorry – I don’t mean any disrespect, but, I’ve read some of the first few posts of banter between astudent and pip…I lean a little more toward astudent…but still…….this is all under the umbrella of one book (albeit a hugely influencial book), and I just couldn’t help commenting when I read at the title of the page ” … and what I’m not permitted to say in Church.” What does that say about your Church?????????

  269. astudent says:

    Daniel,

    You don’t have anything to be sorry for. You cannot disrespect me, because I am only a man and not worthy of respect.

    Please do not view these comments as a contest, but as an exchange of understanding. I think Pip is as good a Christian as I am and his ideas about God’s Word are as worthy of consideration as mine.

    You also have raised a great question and by doing so have spurred me to consider your question. Perhaps I can spur you to consider your own question. That is how this blog is supposed to work. We spur each other on to a better understanding Of God’s Word.

    There are two ways to define the church. The true Church is the body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:27 NIV) ”Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.” The second definition has many parts, such as a building, organization, group, congregation, etc. and it is also called the church, but it is not. The Church may be in the building, but the building is not the church. When the believers go home there is nothing left but an empty building.

    I am permitted by God to say anything as a member of the body of Christ, to the body, but if I said everything that I understand about the church, in the church, I would be called a troublemaker and asked to leave. I do not think I could change anything, because the congregation has put their trust in those in control (men) instead of God. (Psa 146:3 NIV) “Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.”

    My church (worship group) is weak and corrupt. It should come as no surprise as Jesus said that would happen to the kingdom of heaven.

    (Mat 13:31 NIV) He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches.”

    The mustard seed in Mat 13:31 is the same seed as in Luke 8:11 (NIV) “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.”

    The birds are the same birds as in Luke 8:5 (NIV) “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up.” The birds represent Satan. (Luke 8:12 NIV) “Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.” The birds perch in the branches of the church only to swoop down and take away the Word from the congregation.

    (Mat 13:33 NIV) He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

    The yeast in the second parable is sin. The word yeast is a synonym for the word sin everywhere in the Bible. The yeast/sin has worked its way through the church.

    My church has a pastor. One man that almost the entire congregation looks up to. The idea that one man should preach is not in the Bible, but the command that everyone should preach is. Because only one preaches and everyone else must sit quietly and listen, the church is weak. (1 Cor 14:26 NIV) ”What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.” We are permitted to sing, even encouraged to, but a word of instruction, or a revelation is the job/position of the preacher and you better not have a different understanding of Scripture than he does. I might add that those who are officials in the church, who put their faith in the preacher, as one who is always right, have the same understanding as he does and that keeps them from gaining more understanding of God’s Word.

    Preachers view themselves as teachers, but they have forgotten that one has to be a student, before becoming a teacher and to continue to teach, one must continue to be a student and to be a great teacher one must be a great student.

    If I suggest that the preacher get a job, that requires he work with his hands, and wait to preach until he becomes old enough to have children and the children are old enough that others can see that they obey him with proper respect, would I be praised or admonished?
    You know the answer and yet the Bible says that is the qualifications of elders, overseers, and deacons. Isn’t the preacher an overseer?

    My church would encourage a young man to attend seminary and deem him qualified to be an overseer, if and when he graduated. But he does not meet the qualifications listed in the Bible.

    In a weak church few understand, because they think the pastor knows and all they have to do is ask him. In the Church, or body of Christ, we know that the Holy Spirit knows and we ask Him. And we know that the answer/answers are already written. Having said that, I receive comments from believers that have problems and from their comments I see that they have consulted the Spirit and have His answer and yet they feel that they must be reassured by their pastor: a mere man! It says to me that they have more faith in the preacher than in the Word of God.

    In my church, tithing is twisted, so the congregation thinks it means God desires that everyone should give ten percent to the church. That is “not” what He asked of Israel and what He asked is not taught.

    So, my church is weak and corrupt. My church is the church of the end times, Laodicea, the last church in Revelations. A church that says ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ A church that does not realize that they are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked, because Satan has ate up the “seed” or the Word of God and they have replaced it with the word of man.

    That is what the Bible says about my church. Is yours different than mine? If not then what does that say about your church???

    Those who read my comments and judge me a bitter old man are wrong. I am a frustrated old man that wants everyone to turn to the Word of God and not to the word of man. Please do not let any man stand in your own way. That includes me.

    (Acts 17:11 NIV) Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    Be like a Berean and examine the Scriptures every day to see if what I said is true.

  270. Joseph Lule says:

    Rapture

    I will start with your comment and then explain later the teachings about rapture.

    (1 Th 4:16 NIV) “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” The saved are alive in Christ: not dead in Christ. (1 Th 4:17 NIV) “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

    Please note the reason for this passage was that Paul was telling the early Christians not to be ignorant concerning those who have died physically (earthly life or mortal life is gone) in Jesus (having known Jesus) and that he was telling them that just as Jesus died and rose from the dead even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus (in that those who physically died in Jesus).

    What he was trying to say was that there is a day God has set where He will gather the saints together, those who will be physical alive and those who will have died a physical death before the day as stated in:-

    “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

    Why?
    In “1Pe 4:17 it states that because the time has come to begin the judgment from the house of God; and if firstly from us, what will be the end of the ones disobeying the gospel of God? Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why also do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ, 2Co 5:10 For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to what he did, whether good or bad.”

    What Paul and Peter were saying is that the House of God must first be judged before the nations and all (those who knew Christ) must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to what he did, whether good or bad.

    Please note the Lord will come down from heaven with a loud command as stated in John 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live. With a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, after that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

    Here the saints meet in the air with the Lord contrary to Revelation 19:14 concerning the dreadful day of the Lord where it states that and the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, being dressed in fine linen, white and pure. And as stated in Jude 1:14-15 “the seventh from Adam,” Enoch, also prophesied to these men, saying, Behold, “the Lord came with” myriads “of His saints, to do judgment against all, and to rebuke all” the ungodly of them concerning all their ungodly works which they ungodly did, “and concerning all the hard things ungodly sinners spoke against Him.”

    Note He is followed by saints dressed in fine linen, white and pure and remember as Paul said stated in 1Co 15:49, 51-54 And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, “Death was swallowed up in victory.

    All (those who believed in Christ) shall be changed and put on immortality and meet in the air with the Lord.

    Also note as stated in 1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption in that only at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed putting on immortality. For this march with 1Jn 3:2 where it is stated beloved, now we are the children of God, and it was not yet revealed what we shall be. But we know that if He is revealed, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.

    And this is what ties it with 2Co 5:10 where it says For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to what he did, whether good or bad.

    For Paul said in 2Ti 4:8 For the rest, the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me in that Day, and not only to me, but also to all the ones loving His appearance. And as also Peter said in 1Pe 5:4 and at the appearing of the Chief Shepherd, you will receive the never fading crown of glory.

    Ok let’s Jump a little as stated in Rev 20:4 and I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    In this verse John saw thrones and they that sat on them and they were given power to judge, Please note that those John saw can only be given thrones and power to judge after what is stated in with 2Co 5:10 For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to what he did, whether good or bad. And also as stated in 2Ti 4:8 For the rest, the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me in that Day, and not only to me, but also to all the ones loving His appearance.

    Please note that as stated in Revelation 19:14 the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, being dressed in fine linen, white and pure (they were like Jesus) and Rev 20:4 and I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, all this occur before the great white Judgment which is explained in
    “Rev 20:11-14 And I saw a Great White Throne, and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled; and a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works. And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.”

    The big question is when are those who love Jesus judged and given crowns, thrones and power to judge. When is this Day of Judgment for those who love Christ? When is the day of the Judgment seat of Christ?

    Is there something called rapture?

    Please note as stated in Heb 10:1 For the Law had a shadow of the coming good things, not the image itself of those things. Appearing year by year with the same sacrifices, which they offer continually, they never are able to perfect the ones drawing near.

    As stated above the law is a shadow of the coming good things:-

    Note there are festivals that were directed by Jehovah God to Moses in the book of Leviticus 23 not according to the other Jewish traditions. All these feast are according to the Law had a shadow of the coming good things, not the image itself of those things as presented in Leviticus 23 which has the Sabbath, the Passover and the feast of unleavened bread, the firstfruits of harvest, Pentecost, the feast of trumpets in the seventh month, the day of atonement, and the feast of tabernacles.

    For a shadow of the coming good things is the Passover wherein Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover at the same time that the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in Jerusalem in preparation for the festival, as stated in Peter:18-19 knowing that not with corruptible things, silver or gold, were you redeemed from your worthless way of life handed down from your fathers, but with precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot.

    In Lev 23:23-27 the word says And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, on the first of the month, a sabbath shall be to you, a call to a memorial, a holy gathering. You shall do no work of service and you shall bring a fire offering to Jehovah. And Jehovah spoke to Moses saying, Also, on the tenth of this seventh month shall be a day of atonement; there shall be a holy gathering, and you shall humble your souls and shall bring a fire offering to Jehovah.

    Please note there are two ceremonies in the seventh month as the Lord directed one is the first day of the seventh month known as Rosh Hashanah and the second ceremony is the done on the tenth day of the seventh month known as the Day of Atonement.

    According to Jewish scholars Rosh Hashanah is the Day of Judgment. Note according to Wikipedia in the Talmud tractate on Rosh Hashanah it states that three books of account are opened on Rosh Hashanah, wherein the fate of the wicked, the righteous, and those of an intermediate class are recorded. The names of the righteous are immediately inscribed in the book of life, and they are sealed “to live.” The middle class are allowed a respite of ten days, until Yom Kippur, to repent and become righteous; the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living forever.

    Also according to Wikipedia it is the “coronation” of God as King of the universe in preparation for the acceptance of judgments that will follow on that day, symbolized as “written” into a Divine book of judgments, that then hang in the balance for ten days waiting for all to repent, then they will be “sealed” on Yom Kippur.

    Please note the sequence according to Jewish tradition the names of the righteous are immediately inscribed in the book of life, and they are sealed “to live.” Then ten days later those who failed to live a righteous life and are willing to change, repent and become righteous are given ten days until Yom Kippur which is known as the Day of atonement and the wicked who refuse to repent are “blotted out of the book of the living forever.

    Also a major thing that should be noted is the shofar also known as a trumpet is usually blown on the day of Rosh Hashanah known as the Day of Judgment and Yom Kippur also known as the Day of Atonement. As stated in Wikipedia the sound of the shofaris is intended to awaken the listeners from their “slumbers” and alert them to the coming judgment.

    Note that before this day Jewish people are warned to turn away from wickedness and repent so that they could welcome the new year with blessings from the Lord.

    I would like to say that our God is mighty and He hides things in Law so that they are only revealed to those who seek Him and pursue Him. I wish you could see the significance of this day which is known as the Day of Judgment also known as Rosh Hashanah.

    If you look at this Day of Judgment as practiced by Jews it is the same as the Day of Judgment seat of Christ which is different from the Day of the Lord as stated in Joel 1:1-2 and Revelation 19:14

    “Joel 2: 1-2, Blow a ram’s horn in Zion, and shout an alarm in My holy mountain. Let all those living in the land tremble. For the day of Jehovah approaches; it is near, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the dawn spread out on the mountains, a great and a strong people. There has never been the like, nor shall there ever be again to the years of many generations. And Revelation 19:14 and the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, being dressed in fine linen, white and pure.”

    It is a mystery as Paul stated it for in that Day of Judgment in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

    That you may see the mercy and wrath of God just like when He was fighting Pharaoh, the Israelites were protected and hidden from His wrath as He destroyed Egypt, and He again promised He would do the same.
    And as stated in Isaiah 26:17-21 As a woman with child draws near to bear, she writhes and cries out in her pangs. So are we before You, Jehovah. We conceived; we writhe; as it were, we gave birth to wind. We have not worked salvation for the earth; and those living in the world have not fallen. Your dead ones shall live, my dead body, they shall rise up. Awake and sing, dust dwellers; for the dew of lights is your dew; and the earth shall cast out departed spirits. Come, My people, go in your rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide for a little moment, until the fury passes. For, behold, Jehovah comes out of His place to visit his iniquity on those dwelling on the earth. The earth shall also reveal her blood, and shall no more cover over her slain ones.

    As stated above and Jesus said before He comes they will be signs in the world which all these are a beginning of throes. Isaiah says the Lord dead ones shall live; my dead body they shall rise up and the earth shall cast out departed spirits. For just like He said in the Gospels He is going to prepare a place for us, He says in Isaiah Come, My people, go in your rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide for a little moment, until the fury passes.

    Please note our God never changes and just as He protected Israelites when they punished Egypt with plagues, He has also prepared a place for us in Heaven where He will hide us for a moment until His wrath is complete. And yes that Day that He decides to visit and take His people to Himself is what many people call rapture.

    After this event a lot of people who never took Jesus word of repentance and holiness as important would want to turn to God and they are the ones who would now believe the message of Jesus. These are the ones the beast was given power to make war, and to overcome them as stated in Dan 7:21-22 I was looking, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them, until the Ancient of Days came. And judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Also note it is the same as the day of Rosh Hashanah where people were given another ten days to repent before Yom Kippur which is the day of the Lord.

    A lot of people are concerned and would rather have the fear of God and live a holy and righteous life than be caught unawares like the foolish virgins who did not carry extra oil and were left by the bridegroom who is Jesus to experience the fury of the Lord.

  271. Joseph Lule says:

    correction the last fourth passage should read:-

    Please note our God never changes and just as He protected Israelites when He(instead of they) punished Egypt with plagues, He has also prepared a place for us in Heaven where He will hide us for a moment until His wrath is complete. And yes that Day that He decides to visit and take His people to Himself is what many people call rapture.
    Thank again for reminding that i should be careful with complements,

  272. EGreen, Jr says:

    Thanks for the words.
    666 is a number of a man, his name. If you use roman numerals one name will fit that characteristic along with the others of the Anti such as “try to change God’s Law and Time. There is no high standard than the Ten (first for show love for God, last six show love for man)
    The Mark which is on your head and hand, does go back to the God of the old test. If in your head you do not follow Gods Law and with your hands work to show rejection of Gods Law you are marked and sealed.
    All comes down to the Sabbath. Gods Time and Law say the Seventh (completion) is the Sabbath, God’s Holy Day which some has changed…FIND HIM, FIND THE MEANING OF 666.
    #Exodus 28:8-11

  273. astudent says:

    EGreen, Jr,

    I apologize for the supper late response. I have been working with my hands and I was enjoying it so much that I didn’t want to stop.

    Have you noticed that the seven days in Genesis are God’s time and not man’s?

    Gen 1:14-18 (NIV) And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.

    You see there had already been days before God made the sun and moon to govern man’s days.

    The seventh day as spoken of in chapter two is a prophecy as God has yet to enter His rest. John 5:17 (NIV) Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”

    We are still in the sixth of God’s day, so no matter what day, of man’s days, we choose to worship, it is the sixth of God’s days.

    Personally, I think I should worship God every day, but that is what I have determined in my heart. If you believe that you should worship on the seventh day and you have determined, in your own heart, that is the correct day, then to you, it is correct and I am glad you cared enough to find that day.

  274. Joseph Lule says:

    Is Gog of the land of MaGog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal the Anti-Christ?

    Ezekiel 38:1-2 says And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.

    According to Ezekiel 38:2 it should be noted that God tells Ezekiel to set his face against the Gog who is a person, the land of Magog who are inhabitants of Magog, and Rosh, Meshech and Tubal who are the inhabitants of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal who have made Gog their prince. Basically what this means is that the first verse is addressed to Gog, inhabitants of Magog, Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
    Later in the following verses the following lands Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya, Gomer and all its bands; the house of Togarmah from the recesses of the north, and all its bands; many peoples are with Gog who have set their eyes on Israel.

    In Ezekiel 38:4 Jehovah God says to Gog and I will turn you back and put hooks into your jaws. And I will bring you and all your army out: horses and horsemen, all of them clothed most perfectly; a great assembly with buckler and shield, all of them swordsmen. And also as stated in verse 10 so says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day, words shall come up into your heart, and you shall devise an evil plan.

    Please note because of Gog evil nature words shall come to his heart and he will devise an evil plan and in turn God will put hooks into his jaws and bring him and his army out to attack the apple of Gods eye.

    Just to divert a little bit I would like you to see that when God wanted to get His people out of Egypt he sent Moses and as stated in Exodus 4:21 And Jehovah said to Moses, As you go to return to Egypt, see all the wonders which I have put in your hand, and do them before Pharaoh. And I will make strong his heart, and he will not send the people away.

    Basically God was telling Moses in Exodus 7:3-4 that And I will harden the heart of Pharaoh. And I will multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh will not listen to you. And I will put My hand on Egypt, and will bring My armies, My people, the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt with great judgments.

    Also as stated in

    “Exodus 9:12 And Jehovah made heavy Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, as Jehovah had said to Moses.

    Exodus 10:1 And Jehovah said to Moses, Go in to Pharaoh, for I have made his heart heavy and the heart of his servants, so that I may set these signs of Mine in their midst;

    Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue you. And I will be honored through Pharaoh, and through all his armies. And the Egyptians shall know that I am Jehovah. And they did so.”

    What God did to Pharaoh was that He hardened pharaoh heart and made it heavy and because of his heart God performed signs and wonders in the land of Egypt and the Egyptians knew that He was Jehovah.

    Also note God will put hooks put into Gog jaws so as to bring him and his army out to attack Israel and the reason is as stated in Ezekiel 38:16 and 23 where it states And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes….And I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself. And I will be known in the eyes of the many nations, and they shall know that I am Jehovah.

    Please also note that Gog has no fear of God, he seeks to take possession of Israel and has no thought that Jehovah is there. His pride blinds him.

    Now here comes the rider as stated in Ezekiel 38:17 So says the Lord Jehovah: Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by the hand of My servants, the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days and years, to bring you against them?

    Gog according to the verse stated above had been spoken off by the servants of God and prophets of Israel. Who is this Gog who had been spoken about?

    It is believed that there is only one individual who has been talked about in the old testament as having lifted himself up to the position of God and would want to destroy Gods people and that is the anti-Christ.

    According to the book of Daniel 7:25-27 the last ruler who is anti-Christ shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one half time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end……

    He alone is described in the Old Testament as the one who intentionally set his eyes to defy Jehovah God with his deeds.

    Then we have to look at the battle he is going to fight in his last day on earth against Jesus.

    Please note Jesus is God.

    According to Revelation 16:12-16 and the sixth angel poured out his bowl onto the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the earth, even of the whole habitable world to assemble them to the war of that day, the great day of God Almighty… And He assembled them in the place having been called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

    Note the kings of the earth are assembled to war and coincidentally the same day that they go to war in Armageddon which is in Israel is the same day that the bible describes as the great day of God Almighty.

    Remember that Israel is and will be inhabited by Jews and as the bible says no one can drive them out unless God has allowed it and also note that anti-Christ can only possess Israel after driving out the people of God from land.

    Also note that immediately they assembled for war in Armageddon the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a great voice came from the throne from the temple of Heaven, saying, It has happened! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since man came into being on the earth, such a huge earthquake, so great! And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.

    Note there was a great earthquake in Israel and the world which is also described in Ezekiel 38:18-20

    “And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.”

    In Ezekiel 39:1-5 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

    Note again God will cause Gog to come up from the north parts and will bring him upon the mountains of Israel and by the way it is the same as Revelation 16:16 which say the anti-Christ gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon which is in the north parts of Israel.
    Note that it is also known as the plain of Esdralon (Greek form of `Jezreel used in Greek writers (Judith 1:8) for general area of Plain of Megiddo), extends across the breadth of the entire country, between Mount Carmel, Mount Gilboa and the hills of lower Galilee. The Kishon River runs through the whole length of the valley to the Mediterranean Sea.

    God says that Gog shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field:

    This is also the same as described in the book of Daniel 11:45 where it says And he (anti-Christ) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him and also in Revelation 19:19-20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnants were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Basically what God was saying was that He would give their bodies to the fowls of the air.

    Some bible commentators have said that given that anti-Christ and the second beast were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone, then Gog may is different with the anti-Christ as stated in Ezekiel 39: 11 and it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

    It should be noted that the person anti-Christ is a human being who has a spirit, soul and a body who has chosen to be in the image of the devil. The anti-Christ being a descendant of Adam is still under the curse as stated in Genesis 3:19 by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until your return to the ground. For you have been taken out of it; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.

    It also should be noted that according to Gods command the flesh must return to the dust and once a human being dies the soul has to wait for judgment and given that the anti-Christ has chosen and out-rightly willing to defy God and claim to be like God just as the Devil did then as Jesus said the Devil was already Judged and therefore the anti-Christ is already Judged and is the reason why both would be cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    In the book of Ezekiel it just shows how God will deal with him in the flesh and in the book of Revelation God shows how he would deal with him in the spirit.

    It also should be noted that according to Gods command the flesh must return to the dust and once a human being dies the soul has to wait for judgment and given that the anti-Christ has chosen and out-rightly willing to defy God and claim to be like God just as the Devil did then as Jesus said the Devil was already Judged and therefore the anti-Christ is already Judged and is the reason why both would be cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    In the book of Ezekiel it just shows how God will deal with him in the flesh and in the book of Revelation God shows how he would deal with him in the spirit.
    Also it should be remembered that John says that anyone who does not confess that Christ has come in the flesh is not of God and this spirit is anti-Christ and therefore Gog will not be a person who confesses Christ and therefore will be seen as anti-Christ especially having the nerve to oppose God and think that He could divide the Land that God has given Israelites.

    I would say that just as stated in Heb 10:1 For the Law had a shadow of the coming good things, not the image itself of those things. Appearing year by year with the same sacrifices, which they offer continually, they never are able to perfect the ones drawing near. In that the new restatement revealed more of what was stated in the old testament as Jesus said he came to fulfil the law and i believe that the book of Revelation is a way of God revealing all those things He had said through His prophets and His Son and what is written in the old testament is not word by word the same thing that is written in the new testament

  275. Vicki Rae says:

    Hi, and Happy Thanksgiving, I really liked the way you put the meaning of the numbers, really gets you thinking and it makes sence. I knew 7 ment completion and 6 ment man, One ment oneness with God, but I never thought to put them together. 6 man plus one God = 7 completness!! I also know that God is not resting yet , He is busy completing us, what He started in us He will finish. We were raised with so many lies and traditions, and then the TRUTH comes, each man in his own time, and with each new TRUTH revealed we are set free from the Lies/bondage we llearned from man and the religious system. God’s Temple is inside us, He does not reside anywhere made by mans hands, is what Jesus told the women at the well when she asked where to go. His Temple being inside of us is a house of prayer. God is Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit. Everything on the outside of us is carnal/flesh/wordly. God is on the inside of us, so why do we look for Him on the outside of us? The Bible is in parables/allegories, it is not literal, everything is Hidden, then man in his own time comes to the TRUTH, bit by bit and the hidden is revealed to you, and it is awesome!!! The completeness in you is getting all the lies out of you that the world and the religious system put there, all your life and thats all you know and replacing it with the TRUTH little by little til you are complete, because what God has started in you He will finish. Awesome God, Praise Your Holy name. Vicki Rae

  276. astudent says:

    Vicki Rae,

    Happy Thanksgiving to you also. Actually, everyday is a happy Thanksgiving for me.

    I totally agree with you. Searching the Bible is a treasure hunt and the rewards are worth more than silver or gold.

    They say that we came with nothing and we can take nothing with us, but we came with no faith at all and we will take all of the faith we gain with us.

  277. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    That was clear and I agree with you. Well, I think I do!

    Most of what I see in God’s Word is influenced by where in time and space that I am as I think about His Word. I know that sounds crazy, but let me try to explain, before you condemn me. (Or commit me)

    We look for an Anti-Christ among men and I agree that man will be Gog; However, I think that you would agree, “The” Anti-Christ is Satan. Now we have two Anti-Christs and though both are Anti-Christs what we say about one is not necessarily true about the other. Just too thoroughly confuse everyone; everyone who opposes Christ is an Anti-Christ and that includes all Muslims.

    I think that you are correct to see Gog as the Anti-Christ of, or from man, but I do not believe he will be called Gog. All of the Jews looked for the return of Elijah and when that man came he was John. Who knows, maybe Gog will be called Obama! Obama is an anti-Christ, who clams to be Christian and then says Islam is a beautiful religion!

    You say Gog is a person and I agree, but Revelation uses the same word for nations (Rev 20:8). By now Gog has become a nation. Do you see that what you say, or understand, depends on where you view it from?

    Gog was a Reubenite and the King of Assyria relocated the Reubenites to the land of the tributaries of the Gozan River, which is in Assyria. Assyria is north of Israel and from the north will come disaster. It may be that Gog will come from the area that the Reubenites were sent. Just speculating. While I am speculating, Obama is hiding his birth country.

    Joseph, you always give me much to think about and sometimes it overwhelms me. Please do not think that I am ignoring you, because I am slow to respond.

  278. Joseph Lule says:

    Thanks Astudent,

    Please see that Ezekiel’s Gog from Magog is and was a symbol of the evil darkness and the powers that are hostile to God, but in Revelation, Gog and Magog have no geographic location, and instead represent the nations of the world, banded together for the final assault on Christ and those who follow him.

    According to Hebrew Gog is derived from the Hebrew word (gag), usually meaning roof, housetop, or (as HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament puts it) the highest point of an edifice.
    The word Gog denotes most commonly the flat roof of a building on which things can take place (1 Samuel 9:25-26; 2 Samuel 11:2; Judge 16:27; Joshua 2:6; Jeremiah 19:13; but also Acts 10:9). The housetop seems to indicate a certain spiritual exposure. Someone on the housetop opens himself for something, preferable something soothing, or higher.

    I would say it is a funny explanation given that it may mean standing over a highest point opening up for something that is cooler, or soothing, or higher as stated in Acts 10:9 where Peter went up on the housetop to pray and fell into a trance, also in 2Sa 11:2 and it happened at evening time, David rose up from his bed and walked up and down on the roof of the king’s house. And he saw from the roof a woman bathing. And the woman was very good of form, Also in Jer 19:13 And the houses of Jerusalem and the houses of the kings of Judah shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the roofs of the houses on which they have burned incense to all the host of the heavens, and have poured out drink offerings to other gods.

    I believe Gog who is a person stands at a higher point of an edifice (structure or organization) exposing himself to certain spiritual exposure as stated in Ezekiel 38 verse 10 which says “so says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day, words shall come up into your heart, and you shall devise an evil plan.”
    By the way to be exposed to such evil and devise an evil plan at a particular high point then that roof top has to be a defiled place where other gods are been worshipped and in other words where Satan is worshipped.

    Please note in such a roof top which has an earthly realm is the same as was what was shown to Jesus when he was tempted as stated in Mat 4:8-10 Again the Devil takes Him to a very high mountain, and shows to Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him. I will give all these things to You if falling down, You will worship me. Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it has been written: “You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve Him only.” Deut. 6:13.

    I believe it is a high place that Gog has been given after being offered to by the Devil where Gog is shown all the kingdoms of the world and their glory and because he agreed to the lies of the Devil he is called Gog a man who has been set on a root-top and influenced by the Devil.

    God see’s him as man standing over a roof-top of man-made structures who has and had an ambition and desire to go to the top, thinking that being at the top means being able to have dominion over people and thereby trying to do what the people who built the tower of Babel said as stated in Gen 11:3-4 And each one said to his neighbor, Come, let us make brick, and burning burn them. And they had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said, Come, let us build a city and a tower with its head in the heavens, and make a name for ourselves, that we not be scattered on the face of all the earth. Take note “Come, let us build a city and a tower with its head in the heavens, and make a name for ourselves.”

    Just a little rider please note that both Gog and Anti-Christ have great abilities in amassing and bringing people together against the will of God.

    By the way I also believe that as stated In Rev_20:7 Satan is let loose and goes to the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to muster his hosts for the final struggle against God.
    This means that Satan will look and find his children who the bible refers to Gog and Magog who will listen to him so as to fight Christ and that is why I believe they will be that nations that God will allow to live after that terrible day of the Lord as stated in Dan 7:11-12 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I was looking until the beast was killed, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame. And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet length of life was given them for a season and a time.

    On Obama there are just too many signals coming from him that would raise your spiritual antenna into alertness, I will be silent on this but I see a lot of Christians who are deceived into putting their hope on politicians of either side. Our hope should be in Jesus alone and if any man tells people to put their hope on him, he is deceiving people and taking the place of Christ which is heart of man and also known as the temple of God.

  279. Doulos says:

    Interesting that I should find this conversation. Regarding the number of man and the insights offered…I am pleasee to find that others have evidently seen the matter as I have.

    In reference to the purpose of the enemy, I have recently solidified that Satan stands to accuse us… as was his intention from the very start. I think it shows, scripturally speaking, that his goal has been to reject Gid’s will that man should rule above the angels…and he seemingly seeks to “price God wrong” by exposing our weakness

  280. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    I understand and agree.

    We (The human race) still view height the same way that those who built the tower did. You said, “God sees him as man standing over a roof-top of man-made structures who has and had an ambition and desire to go to the top, thinking that being at the top means being able to have dominion over people”.

    God sees that man in that way, because he is that way: able to have dominion over people. He is able because others want him to be. They want a man to have dominion over them: not God. Those who are deceived are deceived because they want to be.

    A general is over the troops. The presidency is the highest office. We speak of high society. Tall people are viewed as better than short people are. We work our way to the top in a business. It is all a way of viewing one man as better than another.

    One cannot say something better than God and He has written, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves”. We are still trying to make a name for ourselves!

    It all becomes even clearer (to me) when the world views a rich man as one who has a higher place in life. One who has more of the master that opposes God! (Matthew 6:24)

    That is one of the reasons that I do not publish my name. It would make no difference to those who do not like what I say, because I claim that all I understand is only a gift from God. They would not agree with me that only God could give understanding. Man says he will reason it out himself. Then others will look up him as someone who has “made a name for himself”.

    I am not saying a thing that you have not already said. I am only saying it with my own words, or perhaps with the words that God gave me (If I listened close enough to understand Him).

  281. astudent says:

    Doulos,

    I agree that Satan is continually accusing us.

    Scripture says that we will judge angels and I think it means that we will judge Satan’s angels. An angle is only a messenger and there are God’s messengers and Satan’s messengers.

    I do not want to rule over anyone, but I do judge that Satan’s messengers are wrong.

    I also agree that Satan is trying to prove God wrong, but the only thing that he proves is that God is right. Scripture says Satan was more crafty that any of the wild animals: not wiser than any of the wild animals.

  282. joseph lule says:

    astudent,

    It is incredible how God works actually as you said before iron sharpens iron. i totally agree with you, it is as if everybody wants to make a name for himself/herself, people want to crown themselves with glory to the extend that they would stand firm to oppose God.

    This is the same lie that is peddled in the Church where people are exhorted to pursue material wealth in the name of God and yet it is for them and to make a name for themselves ‘as it is preached pursue wealth and give to the Church so that un-believers can see that our Church is blessed as we will have this..this..this..and then they will see and want to know our secrets and then we will introduce them to Jesus’ and as you said “It is all a way of viewing one man as better than another.”

    It is all about Me,Myself and I and getting to the Top.

    Now i understand why God says He loves a humble and a contrite spirit

  283. ARLENE ANDERSON says:

    INTERESTING

  284. astudent says:

    joseph lule,

    Yes, you are correct. I keep looking for the basics of understanding and it seems to me that most of real understanding comes through truth.

    If we are true to ourselves we will see ourselves as we really are. Most of the people of this world compare themselves with themselves, “when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise (2 Cor 10:12 NIV (in part))”.

    If we look at ourselves with truth we must admit that we are not good, even when we try with all the might that we can muster. If we have just a little success and we glory in that success it can lead us away from the truth. (Isa 64:6 NIV) All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

    Many of the leaders of the Church today lead themselves away from God by glorying in what seems like success and the congregation only adds to the problem because they do not study God’s word for themselves.

    When we compare ourselves with God we can be nothing less than humble and we can have nothing less than a contrite spirit.

    It seems to me that Christians of today have forgotten Isaiah 64:6, if they ever read it for themselves. They would have to read it for themselves, because it doesn’t make a good sermon to those who want to believe they have become something wonderful.

    The Church of today is the same as the Church of Laodicea, lukewarm and in great danger and unwilling to listen to anyone but their preacher. The fault belongs to both speaker and hearer. One has itching ears and the other gets paid to scratch. Neither understands and neither really wants too.

    God has blessed me greatly by showing me how bad I am and that I can be nothing else. He also has promised that if I stay in the truth, He will change me and I will be like Jesus, but until He does so my righteous acts are like filthy rags to Him.

    It seems, to the world and the Church that I am crazy for being so happy in my condition, but I am. When I consider myself and then consider that Jesus died for me, just as I am, how could I be anything but happy? That is not to say that I have license to sin. I would like to be like God; perfect. However until He makes me like Jesus I stay usually very happy. Until then I know that I am wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked and yet there is hope for me.

  285. Joseph Lule says:

    Astudent

    if you will forgive me i will submit an article here and then later i will respond to you.

    i have found that God is amazing and loves to sharpens people together like iron and i hope that God will allow us to live right in humbleness, holiness and righteousness.

  286. Joseph Lule says:

    The Generation that sees the coming of Christ

    A generation is pronounced as jen-ẽr-ā´shun and it is got from Latin generatio, from genero, which means “beget”.
    It may be also called “circle,” “generation,” hence, “age,” “period,” “cycle”: “many generations” (Deu_32:7); (b) The people of any particular period or those born about the same time:
    When the disciples came to show Jesus the buildings of the temple and asked Him about the sign of His coming and the end of age, He gave what most people say is the Olivet prophesy as stated in Matthew 24:4-34 and at verse 34 He said that `Truly I say to you, in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.’
    What Jesus was saying is that all the things He pronounced will be witnessed by a particular generation and that generation would not pass away until all those things pronounced have occurred.

    By the way it should be noted that when He prophesies about the future it is not about dates but about generations as stated in
    “Exodus 3:15 And God said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation;
    Exodus 20:5 you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me;”

    Just a rider God visits the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation,

    In the book of Enoch it is stated that Enoch was called to pronounce judgment against the Angels that took the daughters of men and made them wives as written also in the book of Genesis 6:2 where it says that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were good, and they took wives for themselves from all those whom they chose.

    If you look at the generations from Enoch to Noah (Gen: 5:19-25 Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech and Noah) you will notice that it is four generations and as stated God says in Exodus 20:5 you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me.

    You will notice that the iniquity at the time of Noah was so great that God’s Spirit could not strive with man and that Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long. And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved to His heart.

    That generation grieved God and God decided to destroy them by use of water and remember it was fourth generation from the time of Enoch when the sons of God saw the daughters of men and they took wives for themselves and Jude says that in Jud 1:6 and those angels not having kept their first place, but having deserted their dwelling-place, He has kept in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of a great Day.

    By the way this generation that would see His coming and experience the tribulation is the same generation that would be fallen, to the extent that it would be like as in the days of Noah as stated in Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    According to the bible in Psalms 90:10 says “The days of our years are seventy; and if any by strength live eighty years, yet their pride is labor and sorrow; for it soon passes, and we fly away.”
    Now Jesus says in Mat 24:-32-34 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near; so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors. Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.
    Jesus was again giving away His secret that this generation that will see His coming and experience tribulation will also see the return of the Jews to modern Israel which is always described in the bible as a fig tree that has become tender and put out its leaves.
    By the way the fourth generation that turned away from God in rebellion might be the baby boomers who are defined as those born during the post world war II baby boom and if you look at it most became in the 1960s relatively large numbers of teenagers and young adults.
    If you look at it, this is the generation that was born when also Israel was born and if you look at the bible a generation is a lifetime of seventy years and most of them are still alive and are nearly retiring and hitting seventy years.
    The bible says that this generation will be as the generation that was described that lived as in the days of Noah and in the days of Lot.
    These generation is described in the bible in Rom 1:28-32 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right, having been filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, iniquity, covetousness, malice, being full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, evil habits, becoming whisperers, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, proud, braggarts, devisers of evil things, disobedient to parents, without discernment, covenant breakers, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful, who knowing the righteous order of God, that those practicing such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also approve those practicing them.

    Which is confirmed by an article of the baby boomers in the time magazine 1966 man of the year that stated:
    “Never have the young been left more completely to their own devices. No adult can or will tell them what earlier generations were told: this is God, that is Good, this is Art, that is Not Done.”

    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,843150,00.html#ixzz1RzE1gohT
    You may ask how came baby boomers would become a fourth generation, you will have to go back three generations back and this would be said to have been from the years 1750-1900.
    Why, 1750’s generation is the one that experienced the industrial revolutions, social and class upheavals that led to the raise of atheism, materialism, and rationalism, which formed the foundation of today modernism.

    It can be said that today post-modern world owes its ideas and existence from that generation that experienced the industrial revolutions and social and class upheavals.

    Take an example that generation experienced astonishing changes in mechanization, transport, agricultural science, power generation, transportation, communication, including a process of globalization, spearheaded by imperialism and huge migrations within and between nations, improvements in weapons technology, and political ferment that would produce liberalism, socialism, and communism.

    Please note that according to Encyclopedia of world history; Age of Revolution and Empire, in the 1760s–90s were as a low point in religious adherence and belief in the United States, with enlightened deism influential among elites; churches and personal morals disrupted by war; and politics, commerce, and westward migration competing with religion for popular interest.

    This is what led to the Great awakenings which was led by the Holy Spirit and led to the conversion of many.

    What I may trying to say is that during this time there was a great fall and a lot of people led rebellious lives and because of who God is and was, He brought a revival that was known as the Great awakenings so that His people would not perish and also note there were people who refused the gospel and rebelled and it is this first generation that leads to a fourth generation that is known as the baby boomers.

    Please also note that according to American history neither awakening had as much of a numerical effect on the churches as their promoters hoped and claimed. What they did in effect was a revolution in how churches operated in a diverse, democratic society. Protestants became open to experiment and were determined to grow in national influence, making evangelicalism the powerful movement it remains today.

    It also the time when Pope Pius IX (1792-1878) promulgated the Marian dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin and convoked the Vatican I Council, which declared the dogma of papal infallibility that establishes that the pope, when speaking on matters of faith and morals, is infallible in his teachings.

    Also according to this time during the French Revolution “A young actress, with a white robe and red bonnet and armed with the spear of knowledge, then passed down the aisle with the crowds chanting “Thou, Holy Liberty, come dwell in this temple, be the goddess of the French.” It was not long afterward that over 2,000 other churches in France were also “transformed” into Temples of Reason. In May 1794 an inscription was added to the front of Notre-Dame: “The French people A reproduction of a painting shows Maximilien Robespierre being interrogated before being executed on July 27, 1794. recognize the Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul,” and “Temple of Reason” was then changed to become the “Temple of the Supreme Being.”

    All these is to show Christians the start of the upheavals that engulfed societies as they rebelled against God and laid a foundation of today societies that are godless and have hatred of God. This was the first generation that knew the word of God and openly rebelled against God that leads to the infamous fourth generation and their children.

    Please note God will visit the iniquity of the fathers up-to the fourth generation and from there are on they are destroyed completely as stated in the bible God visits the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation.

    Please see that when Abraham was given a promise of the land, God told him that in the fourth generation they shall come again for at that time the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full as stated in Gen 15:13-16 And He said to Abram, Knowing you must know that your seed shall be an alien in a land not theirs; and they shall serve them. And they shall afflict them four hundred years; and I also will judge that nation whom they shall serve; and afterward they shall come out with great substance. And you shall come to your fathers in peace. You shall be buried in good old age. And in the fourth generation they shall come here again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

    Baby boomers are the fourth generation whose iniquity cup has become full and as Jesus says in no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

    By the way if you want to know the imagination of this generation, how wicked they are, one should compare them to what is stated in Genesis 6 as happened during the time of Noah where it stated “Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long”.

    Just take a look at what is streamed at the television and internet. These two modes of communication are used to stream thoughts and I believe that God would say that this generation every imagination of the thoughts of the heart that are streamed through the two modes of communication is only evil all the day long.

    This generation and her children who are described as hedonistic, meaninglessly rebellious, looks worse because every imagination of the thoughts of the hearts of this generation is evil and has been visualized through mediums that have also lead other people into darkness and destruction. This in addition to the evils being committed is very great in the face of God which is disheartening to the Spirit of God and the only thing that is remaining is destruction just like Noah generation experienced. And the worst of it the Church has been seduced by these evil imaginations.

    Who shall warn this generation of the coming destruction?

    The end is nigh we are racing against time, it is already the eleventh hour please prepare your heart for the coming of the Lord. He is coming, prepare your hearts.

  287. Joseph Lule says:

    Astudent,
    I agree with you when you say that “If we are true to ourselves we will see ourselves as we really are” and if we look at ourselves and compare ourselves with others we deceive ourselves as stated in Jeremiah 17:9 that says ‘the heart is deceitful above all things, and it is incurable; who can know it?’
    It is true many Churches can be described to have fallen from the faith in God because they no longer believe that God is able to do things for them. That is why a lot of churches will glory in what seems as a success and forget the scriptures that says it is not by might, nor by power but by my Spirit and always the glory always belongs to God alone.
    When we even try to compare ourselves to God the Church has forgotten and refused to tell the world that always God fights the proud but He lifts the humble and the contrite in spirit.
    Truly today Church is the Church of Laodicea, she says I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing yet she is wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.

    She has trusted in riches instead of trusting in God, she has sought political power instead of seeking God, she has sought to influence the world through her deeds instead of being the light and letting God change the world.

    And what she has got is earthly power and lost faith in God and thereby denied the power of God, who is the Holy Spirit who is to work in the world. She has restrained the Holy Spirit.
    And the problem has been she has refused to see that she is wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked believing false prophets who tell her that she is fine and because she is increased with goods it is a sign that God has blessed her and approves of her work and yet the word of God says that one should continue to check whether he is in faith or not.

    The word of God says that we should always live in humbleness and always esteeming other people knowing very well that we are as wicked as they come and if we believe in Him, He will surely finish the work He has started and make us like Him. That’s it is in the child like faith that God esteems and justifies that person as righteous and wiping away his sins forever.

    As for me I pray that God may allow me to live a life that is pleasing to him and to constantly show me how I should walk before Him knowing very well that without His Spirit I cannot make it and just like you said also my hope is in the Lord Jesus for He will finish what He has started.

    To my brothers and sisters have the child like faith, live in holiness, pursue God and constantly check yourself whether you are in the faith or not.

  288. carmel says:

    I want to also point out that you are reading from a translation… which the King James is not the original either, but I saw it there first and got insight also. I too do not know if it is right but it is what was going through my mind at the time…

    With that being said, in both versions it says “it is the number of A man” not just “it is the number of man” One denotes mankind and another denotes a specific man… Also there must be some calculation(counting in KJV) done in order to figure it out. This implies that it is not as easy as just six… in my opinion.

    It is also known that in this generation every man born has a number…a few different numbers actually. It could be:

    A) numerology of some sort where you must calculate the supposed beasts name to see if it adds to 666 in any way..(I’m not that stuck on this one)

    B) In KJV it is written “six hundred three score and six” or 6002020206 which I have never seen ANYBODY suggest… remember it is a riddle. now that could be some sort of telephone/cellphone number (600-202-0206) I’ve never tried calling..lol

    or

    MY TOP POSSIBILITY AT THIS TIME… SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER(600202026) OR SOME SORT OF IDENTIFICATION NUMBER… which is the number of a specific man that WOULD benefit us by knowing who the beast is.. which to me it is obvious that God is trying to warn us about who the beast is

  289. astudent says:

    carmel,

    In the context of the “number of man”, doesn’t a man and man mean the same? If the reference refers to a man, wouldn’t it also refer to all men? When I examine myself I see myself as a man. Doesn’t everyone?

    I also once thought that the number of man might refer to a social security number, but not all countries have such a number. However, they might in the future.

    Having said that, I believe that all men have the same number, from the first to the last, because I believe God to be perfect in justice and therefore applies the same number, thoughts, and judgment to all men. Even to those who had/have no social security number. That number comes from man, not from God.

    However, I could be wrong—- but I don’t think so.

    Thanks for the comment and the passion to share. We will all understand when knowledge passes way (1 Cor 13:8).

  290. carmel says:

    I like your take on it also… remember we must keep all possibilities open. I was just pointing out that in the context of the text it seems to be giving a clue to who the anti-christ is… a warning. Which made me think it wasn’t talking about all men but the number of the beast who is a man also.

  291. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule,

    You “always” make me think.

    I never thought of the Church as restraining the Holy Spirit, but as I do now, it makes sense.

    I have only begun to see all of the sin that those in the Church of today is doing. It seems insane that so many people claim faith in God and yet have very little. Surely, it is caused by their lack of study by and for themselves. They just sit and listen to a man attempting to explain Scripture, while the Holy Spirit waits for them to ask Him to explain!

    If I say anything to church members, you would think that I was trying to destroy the church instead of help it! They have been brain washed by the clergy.

    Perhaps I can see some comfort in 1 Corinthians 8:2 (NIV) “The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.” Usually I apply it to myself and think that maybe I ought to just shut up, because I might not be right. However, if I think I know something about the church and I am not right, it would be a good thing.

    I placed your article”The Generation that sees the coming of Christ” on my home page and there is a comment with a question in it. Do you want to answer liferestored or should I attempt?

  292. astudent says:

    carmel,

    I agree with you as I view it from your prospective.

    There are many antichrists. Every Muslim is an antichrist, but it seems there is only one “main” antichrist.

    God has placed more than one clue about who the antichrist is and I bet He is laughing at me because I do not seem to understand any of them.

    I hope so, but then who am I that I could bring joy to God?

  293. Mark says:

    I think the proper translation of that passage is “six hundred, three score, and six”.

    That is a major part of the riddle you missed. But you are right about the number of man being 6.

    So three digits are needed. The first digit is S. this is because you spell 6 with an S in the hundreds place. The last digit is X. This is because you spell six with an X in the “ones” place. So what about the middle digit? “three score”?
    How about we draw 3 scores, or horizontal lines. You get a capital E.

    The number of his name is 666. But the name representing him is SEX.

    6 threescore

  294. Mark says:

    6 threescore 6

    It is written on every forehead in print today. Look close in the newspaper. In magazines. They write SEX on everyone’s forbear in a slightly different skin tone. I’m not saying sexual intercourse is evil. I’m saying the mark of the beast is WAvy line, threescore, crossing lines. SEX.

  295. Mark says:

    There is not currently ANYTHING available that doesn’t have the word SEX written on it. This is a fact. Check your jeans. What appears to be water stain marks spell out SEX. Check your kitchen countertops . The pattern is easily found when you look for it. It is literally on everything. S threescore X.

    And the world wondered in amazement. God bless you. Stay calm. Jesus is savior.

  296. Joseph Lule says:

    Astudent,

    It is okay to post the comment and please feel free to answer anything, we are called to share what we been given. May God continue too show us the light.

  297. astudent says:

    Mark,

    We see what we look for and sometimes, because we are only looking for what we want, our view is distorted.

    I would not say that you are wrong, but I can not accept your explanation of the middle letter. It is four lines and without a reason to disregard the vertical line as a whole it doesn’t seem analytical to me.

    I made an effort to test your claim that sex is written on everything and could not verify it. I could not see the pattern in any created or accidental design. I see many images of many things, but very few letters and no words at all.

    In your second comment you said, “I’m not saying sexual intercourse is evil”. I am not sure that evil is the proper way to state it but all intercourse makes both parties unclean. (Lev 15:18) That is stated in the Old Testament and because God does not change it is as true today as it was in the time of Moses.

  298. Guest says:

    Dear Pip,

    I agree that 6 represents man/beast.

    We are spirit encased in an animal body. We have fallen into matter and forgotten who we are. If you ask anyone today who they are they will probably tell you their name, age, nationality etc instead of replying they are spirit.

    I believe the ‘beast’ to be mankind.

    D

  299. Joseph Lule says:

    Astudent,

    Just a thought Jesus says that nobody knows the day of His coming except the Father. If Jesus does not know, Angels do not know, which means Satan also does not know.

    Now the question is does the person who Satan has groomed to take over after rupture really knows if he is the anti-Christ?

    Thank You Lord now i understand the verse that says the man of perdition will only be revealed after the Holy Spirit has been taken away.

    Oh My my brothers be prepared for the coming of the Lord.

    Now to digress a little if rupture were to take place which leader is unaware would lead the world?

    I say again don’t look for the signs of end times but prepare your heart for the coming of the Lord.

  300. Lindelwa says:

    Hmmmm what a very intresting topic, I must say, God is really at work in these last day, God is so faithful, it so amazing, @Joseph before jesus came it was fortold that christ/the king of Juda was to be born and will come, the son of God will come to take away the sins of the world,if u read the book of Matthew chapter 1 and start from verse 18 upto verse 24 it reads”Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place under these circumstances: When His mother Mary had been promised in marriage to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.

    19And her [promised] husband Joseph, being a just and upright man and not willing to expose her publicly and to shame and disgrace her, decided to repudiate and dismiss (divorce) her quietly and secretly.

    20But as he was thinking this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary [as] your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit.

    21She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus [the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua, which means Savior], for He will save His people from their sins [that is, prevent them from [a]failing and missing the true end and scope of life, which is God].

    22All this took place that it might be fulfilled which the Lord had spoken through the prophet,

    23Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel–which, when translated, means, God with us.
    24Then Joseph, being aroused from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him: he took [her to his side as] his wife.”
    Please underlined verse 22, all that was fortold by the prophet of the Lord came to pass as is, from birth he was named jesus which means savior refer to verse 21 and theres was never a time in the whole life of jesus, even as a child that jesus didnt know that he was Jesus the savior, if he didnt know that he was the son of God then he wudnt have been able to serve the lord as his Master, My Point is it impossible to serve the master if u dont know that you are his servent, so antichrist knows who he is, and his mission in the world and he has know since since birth and if you look at the signs around the world, you know that anti-christ has been born already, hope God will grant u wisedom to understand everything as you read and be blessed…

  301. astudent says:

    Joseph Lule and Lindelwa,

    Well, I have to laugh even though it is not a laughing matter. I wouldn’t be so bold as to say that I know if or if not the anti-Christ knows per say who he is, but I did have a thought.

    It is possible that the anti-Christ knows in a way. If the anti-Christ is the twelfth imam then it is possible that he only knows his own religion and though he would certainly be an/the anti-Christ, he might not know. It also might not make any difference to him. Satan is beaten and yet it seems to make no difference to him.

    Having said that I would not discount what Lindelwa said. Though I have some doubt that the enemies of God know what they are doing. If they knew God, would they oppose Him?

  302. Joseph Lule says:

    Lindelwa and Astudent,

    Lindelwa, I did say that the person Satan has lied to and promised the world in like what was offered to Jesus as he was being tempted as written in the book of Matt 4:8-10
    “Again the Devil takes Him to a very high mountain, and shows to Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him. I will give all these things to You if falling down, You will worship me. Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it has been written: “You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve Him only.” is not fully aware of who he is.

    That person who has been lied to and offered the kingdoms of the world and their glory already serves Satan and is aware that he is in opposition to God.
    I will also agree with Astudent that he knows in a way that he opposes Christ but not fully aware that he is the main anti-Christ who Christ will defeat when He returns.

    That is why i do get to understand that he would be revealed when the Holy Spirit is taken away. In that though he opposes God now, then he would be revealed as the one God will deal with severely as He dealt with Pharaoh in the book of exodus and therefore God will be glorified.

    And i will agree with Astudent with the statement ‘Though I have some doubt that the enemies of God know what they are doing.if these people knew who God was, would they oppose Him?’ and that is why the Devil deceives and lies.

    By the way Astudent, i got to look at your thoughts about obama being anti-Christ’Who knows, maybe Gog will be called Obama! Obama is an anti-Christ, who clams to be Christian and then says Islam is a beautiful religion!’.

    Can i post it here? The revelation has challenged me, i hope i will share with you.

  303. Joseph Lule says:

    I had to submit i just felt like the sooner the better, sorry i didnt wait for your reply.

    Dreams by a Ruler in the Throne

    I hope I am wrong but in my spirit I feel as if it is the correct thing. For those who will read this don’t take it as face value but be as the Berean Christians and study the Word to see if what I am saying is correct if not please correct me.

    The book heading is Dreams From My Father by President Obama.

    Please note that a son will do what he sees his father is doing as stated in John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything from Himself, except what He may see the Father doing; for whatever that One does, these things also the Son does likewise.

    Remember that spiritually one has a Father as Jesus said in John 8:42-44 Then Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I went forth and have come from God. For I have not come from Myself, but that One sent Me. Why do you not know My speech? It is because you are not able to hear My Word. You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it.

    In his book this ruler says that he got a purpose in life after getting to know his father.

    Who is his Father?

    As stated above dreams are sometimes given to show a person what path one has to take in life or what may happen in the future as seen in the bible where Abraham is shown of what will happen to his generation, also Joseph shown that he would be a ruler, and Nebuchadnezzar shown of what will happen in the future with regards to the four human Kingdoms.

    But first we have to look at the dream he had in 1988 before he got the throne.

    “…I finally fell asleep and dreamed I was walking along a village road. Children dressed only in strings of beads played in front of the round huts, and several old men waived to me as I passed. But as I went further along, I began to notice that people were looking behind me fearfully, rushing into their huts as I passed. I heard the growl of a leopard and started to run into the forest, tripping over roots and stumps and vines, until at last I couldn’t run any longer and fell to my knees in the middle of a bright clearing. Panting for breath, I turned around to see the day turned into night, and a giant figure looming as tall as the trees, wearing only a loin cloth and a ghostly mask. The lifeless eyes bored into me, and I heard a thunderous voice saying only that it was time, and my entire body began to shake violently with the sound, as if I were breaking apart… I jerked up in a sweat hitting my head against wall lamp that stuck out above the bunk. In the darkness my heart slowly evened itself, but I could not get back to sleep again. ” Dreams From My Father; Barack Obama.

    God of heaven, speaks through dreams to his children as stated in Gen 20:3, Gen 20:6, Gen 31:11, Gen 31:24, and many others so is the Devil also speaks through dreams.

    Please you have to understand that God gives understanding in visions and dreams as stated in Daniel 1:17 as for these four boys, God gave them knowledge and skill in all writing and wisdom. And Daniel had understanding in all visions and dream.
    Please note again God gives understanding in all visions and dreams.

    He dreamt he was walking which means it is his walk in life. In that he had arrived in a place in life where he was about to know his meaning and purpose of life.

    As he continued with his life he journeyed to a region where children dress only in strings of beads as they played in front of the round huts and also several old men waived to him as he passed.

    As he continued with his journey people were looking behind him fearfully, rushing into their huts as he passed.

    This thing that was after him brought fear in other people lives and it growled like a leopard. Please remember this thing is what I will call a beast was not after him but wanted to direct him to a purpose.

    What he hadn’t noticed was that the beast was following him and only noticed after people who looking behind him fearfully and rushed into their huts as he passed then is when he heard the growl of the leopard.

    And because of the growl he run until at last he couldn’t run any longer and fell to his knees in the middle of a bright clearing.

    Day had turned to night and a giant, lifeless eyes figure looming as tall as the trees, wearing only a loin cloth and a ghostly mask bored into him. Did it attack him? No.

    The beast only gave a message that it was time and his entire body began to shake violently with the sound, as if he was breaking apart.

    Did the dream end there I don’t know if it ended there but only the President knows.

    By the way one should know that a person will always become one with the thing that directs him.

    Why? Because you will always listen to one that directs you which is explained in John 8:43-44 why do you not know My speech? It is because you are not able to hear My Word. You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. If one hears the words of Jesus and do them then they will know the Father who is the God of Abraham but if they do not know hear Jesus then they would be described as Jesus said You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do.

    Whose desire does the President do?

    In Rev 13:2 it is stated that and the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave its power to it, and its throne, and great authority.

    Let’s say as stated in the dream he becomes one with the beast that was like a leopard and as stated in Rev 13:2 the dragon has to give him power, throne and authority.

    What is the dragon power, throne and authority?

    We have to go back to the bible where Jesus is led to the desert and tempted by the Devil in Mat 4:8-10 where it says “Again the Devil takes Him to a very high mountain, and shows to Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him. I will give all these things to You if falling down, You will worship me. Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it has been written: “You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve Him only.” Deut. 6:13.

    In the bible it says that the kingdoms of the world and their glory are under the Devil and he can give it to anybody who is willing to fall down and worship him.

    To those who may not know, the Presidency is a throne and it has power and authority and do not be lied to even if the experts say that it has checks.
    Most people will be shocked when I say that these institutions were not created with the mindset of God.
    Democracy which is man invention is an institution that is run by men ideas and not God’s.

    Before democracy it was highly believed that Monarchs ruled divinely and because of their misdeeds people felt that governments should exist to protect property of subjects and citizens, defend against foreign enemies, secure order, and protect the natural rights of its people. Therefore, it was believed that government was based on their voluntary consent. If their basic natural rights were violated, they could withdraw their consent and therefore led to the development of democracy where people were given the right to exercise their will in choosing their leaders.

    Please remember as stated in 1Co 3:19 for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it has been written, “He takes the wise in their own craftiness.” Job 5:13

    By the way there is no democracy in the kingdom of God. Our God is King and Lord and He owns everything. And I would say again that the Presidency is a seat of the throne that has enormous powers and authority.

    I am going to break people hearts by telling them that because democracy originates from man, where it is not a system based or driven by love but driven by competition, contention in the heart, greed, pride, boastfulness, bitterness, jealousy, fear, manipulation, hatred, desire for power, lies, violence and many others things originates from the Devil.

    As stated in James 3:14-15 where it says “But if you have bitter jealousy and contention in your heart, do not boast and lie against the truth. This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but is earthly, beastly, devilish.”

    That is why it would be difficult to get to the worldly throne unless you pursued almost all of these things which is in contravention with the Word of God that says that the greatest is the servant.

    By the way if you do these entire things, one is already like the Devil and in true sense a child of the Devil and is already worshiping the Devil.

    To get to this worldly throne of the ruler of the world which is the Presidency if the contender heart is filled with contention in the heart, greed, pride, boastfulness, bitterness, jealousy, fear, manipulation, hatred, desire for power, lies, violence that wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly, beastly, and devilish.

    Okay let’s go back; what made him get the Throne was earthly, beastly and devilish wisdom which does not come down from the Father who is Heaven the creator of Heaven and Earth.

    I hope I am wrong but in my spirit I feel as if it is the correct thing. For those who will read this don’t take it as face value but be as the Berean Christians and study the Word to see if what I am saying is correct if not please correct me.

    If what is stated above is what I believe to be correct then we have to look at the bible which describes the man of sin as the son of perdition.
    2Th 2:3 says ‘Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,’

    The word “perdition” occurs in the English Bible 8 times (Joh_17:12; Phi_1:28; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_6:9; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_3:7; Rev_17:11, Rev_17:18). In each of these cases it denotes the final state of ruin and punishment which forms the opposite to salvation. The verb apollúein, from which the word is derived, has two meanings: (1) to lose; (2) to destroy. Both of these pass over to the noun, so that apōleia comes to signify: (1) loss; (2) ruin, destruction.
    The son of perdition was a name given to Judas as stated in (Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name; I guarded those whom You gave to Me, and not one of them was lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled) and to the Antichrist (2Th_2:3).
    This is the well-known Hebrew idiom by which a person typically embodying a certain trait or character or destiny is called the son of that thing. The name therefore represents Judas and the Antichrist.
    To the Hebrew a son of perdition is typified as a character of someone who is in a state of ruin and punishment is therefore called the son of ruin and punishment.
    It should be noted that just like Judas Iscariot the Anti-Christ is a human being who has taken an evil character and destined himself to destruction.
    Remember if he is the one he must able to do things according to his will and going against the ways of God and which means he is not humble like Jesus was stated in Mat 26:39 And going forward a little, He fell on His face, praying, and saying, My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.

    You may ask when you see him doing things is it his will or God’s will? I am not saying his quotes of the bible but what he does, does it glorify God or him. When he succeeds in doing things does the glory go to God or him?

    Also that as stated in 2Th 2:9-10 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders, and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.

    Therefore for him to be who I claim him to be, his coming and his is way should be to deceive people by his craftiness and corrupt them into believing a lie just as the Serpent deceived Eve as stated in Rom 16:18 for such ones do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth speaking and flattering they deceive the hearts of those without guile and His tongue is smooth and flatters the mind so as to corrupt them who do not believe Jesus.

    You may ask which lie? To be him he will act like the false prophets as stated in Mar 13:22 for false christs and false prophets will arise and will give miraculous signs and wonders in order to seduce, if possible, even the elect. In that he leads people to himself and not God, for if any man tells people to put their hope on him, he is deceiving people and taking the place of Christ which is the heart of man and also known as the temple of God. The hope of the world is Jesus Christ and there is no other hope.

    Does he have a seducing spirit and for him to have a seducing spirit is a spirit that can be defined as a spirit that “leads astray,” “to causes to err,” as from the paths of truth. That means his motive will be to lead multitudes astray from the God of Heaven and to cause them to err and to seek a path that leads to destruction.
    Does he have a seducing spirit? When he gives his speech do you feel as if you are carried away to a place like heaven being wowed by his ways and almost lifting him up in your heart? Please remember the heart is the Lords and nobody should be there except the Lord and anything that competes with Him in there is an idol and, He will destroy it.
    By the way, by leading away people to himself it means he is opposing God.

    Okay this is just a piece to warn people not to put their trust in any leader but God and this Ruler may not know that he is the one but he truly knows who he serves.

    And again this article mainly is to tell people that Christ is about to come and in my spirit it feels as if it may be any day from now and my advice is that please prepare your hearts for the coming of the Lord, turn away from wickedness and seek forgiveness from the Lord.

    And again I hope I am wrong but in my spirit I feel as if it is the correct thing. For those who will read this don’t take it as face value but be as the Berean Christians and study the Word to see if what I am saying is correct if not please correct me. If I am wrong please forgive me.

  304. Kaspa says:

    Anyone else notice the tiny smiley face at the very bottom of the page? :)

    May He come quickly! Praise the Lord!

  305. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hi. Devout atheist here.
    Can someone please tell me what is meant by “NUMBER” when someone mentions the “Number of Man” or the “Number of the Beast”.
    It’s all very confusing and silly to a rationalist such as myself.

  306. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    Well, I give it a shot, but the Book that speaks of the number of man has a verse that says that if you do not believe then you will not be given understanding.

    1Co 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    It is basically a riddle and the understanding is not even given to all Christians, but then perhaps it is because they do not ask.

    The Bible uses numbers to symbolize many things. One usually symbolizes God, two for witnesses, three for the Father Son and Holy Spirit, etc.

    I see that you are rational. Have you considered the rationality of the universe being created? It would be irrational to think something so complicated and sensitive just happened. Have you ever thought of trying to define life? What is it? A force, a catalyst, a thing?

  307. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hi. Thanks for replying.

    So if I don’t believe in God then I cannot understand what “The Number Of” means. Fair enough.

    Ah, but you say that the Bible uses numbers to SYMBOLIZE things; so the Number of The Beast etc is merely symbolism? I still don’t see the purpose of doing that.

    Yes, I have considered the rationality of the Universe being created and I find none. Why would someone (or something) create such a vast and hostile place and then wait billions of years before putting US in it – AND THEN, not tell us anything about it, our place in it, the workings of it, the laws that govern it.

    I’m aware that most of the religions place man at the centre of everything, that all was created for him. This concept isn’t backed up by the evidence. If the entire Universe was created for man, then why isn’t the Universe remotely hospitable to him? If we leave our planet for even the shortest period of time we begin to wither and die. Not much of a design.

    Even the idea that Man was created is difficult to swallow. If that is the case then it’s not much of a design. Blindness, Deafness, Mental Illness, Cancer – as well as any of millions of other diseases, birth defects, baldness, not to mention that if we fall over we break, if we fall from even a mere few feet we die… Are you really trying to tell me that someone DESIGNED that?

    Anyway, I didn’t really come here to bandy that particular subject about, I merely wished to gain some insight into the whole Number thing. I don’t want people thinking I’m spoiling for a fight.

    I would happily debate the created vs evolved subject but I don’t want to create any antagonism, nor do I want to be villified over it.

    If you can shed any more light on the Number thing then that would be wonderful.

    Cheers!

  308. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    Thanks for commenting.

    Aren’t you mixing up the symbols with the real thing? Six is the symbol and man is the thing that it symbolizes. The Beast is real, as man is, and the number is only the symbol of what is real. Symbols are useful for many things. Do you see the purpose of using Pi as a mathematical symbol?

    If you are looking to a man for an understanding of God, you are looking in the wrong place. The Bible says as “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another” and iron cannot sharpen iron. Therefore, though we would like to sharpen others, God has reserved that right and responsibility for Himself.

    The only thing that I can do is tell/show/demonstrate that others are in need of sharpening. Now, don’t take this wrong, but all men need sharpening and that includes both of us. No man knows everything and it is a great thing when a man can admit that to himself.

    Forgive me, but it seems to me that you make the same mistake understanding the universe as you made trying to understand symbols. I ask if you had considered the universe and you answered with what you considered about religion.

    You jumped to the design of man and then instead of really considering the design of man you only considered the breakdowns associated with the design. A car is “first” designed and then manufactured, sold, used and then it breaks. One cannot rationally consider breakdowns until they happen, because one cannot see the future. It is true that the designer will attempt to foresee problems, but he/she is not responsible for operator abuse. Before you make the claim that we do not abuse our bodies, please don’t. Everyone does at one time or the other.

    You compare all humans to a standard of perfection, but no one is perfect. Have you considered that being born blind might be the best condition for some? I am not perfect by your standard. I am rather short and when I was young I viewed it as a curse, but now I see it as great blessing. I realized that I didn’t understand what God had done, but when I turned to God, He opened my eyes and now I see the blessing.

    There is one thing that is certain, whether you believe in intelligent design or not. We all die. If you see that man is designed then it is apparent that is part of the design.

    I hope you do not think that I am spoiling for a fight either. I would really like you and everyone in this world to understand everything, but first I would have to understand everything and I do not. If I did then I would be God and that thought makes me laugh.

    Anyway, you got me. I cannot shed light on something that someone else does not believe in. I cannot shed light on the “Number thing” any more than I could explain Pi to someone that only looks at the symbol and not the reality that it means the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. First, one has to believe there is such a thing as a circle.

  309. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Firstly I’d like to thank you for your considered response. You’d be amazed at how many theists get all defensive and indignant when discussing this subject, and then resort to quoting scriptures, as if that somehow helps.

    I’m not sure I see how I’m mixing up the symbolism thing. Man is Man, why does it need a symbol? When the ancient Greek mathemeticians discovered the ratio of the circumference of the circle to its diameter was 3.14159… they required a symbol to express that. Hence Pi. Why would we need a symbol to represent oursleves? As for the Beast (I assume we’re talking Satan here), well we’ll have to agree to disagree on the existence of that. But even so, again, why the need for a symbol? And why, even if there IS a need for a symbol, is it relevant?

    I read in the articles above that 6 (man) + 1 (God) = 7. The world was created in 7 days so Ta-Dah!
    I’m sorry but that to me is preposterous.
    Even if you did believe that everything was created in a mere 7 days it’s still a case of trying to derive meaning from the meaningless. Really, unless a “day” back then was several Billion years in length then it’s quite absurd.
    If Genesis is the guiding argument in this then have you ever wondered how God made the light earlier than he made the things that produce the light? (the Sun) Or have you ever wondered how he spends 6 of his seven days working on the Earth and its contents and then manages to create everything else – the Trillions of stars and their planets and nebulae and asteroids and every other imagineable thing almost as an afterthought?

    My problem with all this is that most Theists just accept all this as perfectly sensible and reasonable. Stopping the Sun in the sky, for instance, and all the other physically impossible acts we read in the Bible never make the Believers go “what a crock”. Yet, when presented with hard evidence of things like Evolution they all claim “it’s just a Theory, it’s not proven”.

    And yet the only proof of the Bible and its contents is itself. It is not backed up irrefutably by anything anywhere in nature.

    I’m sorry, I’m starting to rant here. I do get angry though when I see the damage that religions have done throughout history to the world and are still doing. I have represented myself here as Anti-Theist, meaning that I’m not so much a non-believer of God as I am AGAINST the belief in God.

    I fail to see what good it does. What benefit does believing in God have for the planet as a whole? It seems to serve individuals pretty well, and America for instance has many church leaders and evangelists that are doing pretty well out of it indeed. But what are the religions of the world – and by that I mean the PEOPLE that make up those religions – doing to better humanity?

    I am, above all else, a Humanist and would much prefer to see the Churches and Theists around the world, whatever their faith, working towards a better Earth, not just eyeing off their place in Heaven.

    Thanks again for listening.

  310. Joseph Lule says:

    To Friendly Antitheist,

    I watched and read your conversations and frankly I thought it was not right to comment to any of your questions and answers but I felt that I needed to write something about this discussion.

    You wanted to know why the bible uses symbols sometimes to describe certain things?

    By the way, the way you have responded it seems me that you are learned and you would know that apart from words, symbols are also used as a way of communication.
    Take for example someone may want to pass a message but he may not necessarily want to pass it to everybody, he will have to come up with symbols or codes that he may want to share to those who he wishes to share to and not necessarily all people. What we are trying to say is that, just like any language used there are words that are used to describe other things which may be descriptive or not descriptive.

    Now regarding the bible, symbols are used to describe things for example the Church is described as a bride of Christ, Israel is described as the wife of God, those nations who have known and followed God commands and have rebelled against those commands are symbolized as an adulterous woman.

    Regarding what you were asking the bible has used the symbol of numbers to refer to a quite a number things wherein which is stated above by my friend Astudent who was trying to tell you that the number six is used as a symbol to refer to all people or Man.

    Now the writers of the bible through revelation from God needed to communicate to those who believed that God existed, that Man had a number which was known as six and that the same number also was the number of the beast.

    Why was there a number six given to Man? It was a way of communication to those who would believe that God exist, that they should be careful to lead a life as was directed in the bible and be watchful with their lives for certain things in the future would occur that would not be good to their lives if they didn’t live as per the instructions of the bible.

    To your argument on creation it all about belief, one is not compelled to believe that the world was created in seven days but as those who would believe in God and the bible they are asked to accept what is written there. It may be absurd to believe it without reasoning but it is an act of faith that would be regarded as foolish. And I say just as the bible says those who believe in the gospel they will be regarded as foolish and I wear the badge with honor because I know believing in God and the words written in bible is foolish to the naked eye but to the those with opened spiritual eyes it is everything.

  311. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hello Joseph, thanks for participating in the discussion.

    I truly do believe that Faith brings its own rewards, and I think that is the gist of what you’re saying here. I also agree with “aStudent” that the beginning of wisdom is admitting you know nothing.

    I try to engage both philosophies when dealing with the true nature of things. I have Faith that when push comes to shove People will do the right thing (that’s People as in a community collective or even wider-scale versions thereof) even though it seems that it’s more than often not the case.

    I go through life thinking that I’m slowly getting a handle on things but then soon realise that everything is as unpredictable as ever and I know very little. I can see how religion can bring order and a sense of predictability to this chaos.

    It must be wonderful to get up in the mornings and know that your future is rosy, even in death. Knowing that you’ll meet all your deceased loved ones again and that all your mistakes and sins are forgiven.

    Unfortunately this doesn’t sit well with me. I also have Faith that I alone determine my future, not some unseen hand. This makes me accountable for my actions. Being forgiven for all the bad stuff I could do – by someone who wasn’t injured by my actions at that – is somehow unfair and unjust. I feel that the world would be a better place if people were more accountable for what they did to others, especially if they believed it effected their afterlife. But the way I hear it is that it doesn’t matter what you do in life, all you have to do is admit you love God and all will be forgiven, even if you do that on your deathbed. Perhaps if it were told that they were in fact accountable for their actions then people would behave more gently, more respectfully and more caringly towards each other.

    Personally, I believe you go ’round once and you’d better make the most of it. What legacy are you leaving behind for future generations? What betterments are you helping to create for the next generation? Are you leaving the place better than you found it?

    This is the important stuff, not which number is what.

  312. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    Well, you waste your time trying to explain away a God that you don’t even believe in. The Book that explains God states that you cannot understand anything about Spiritual matters and you only prove it, by trying.

    There is one basic thing that you are very wrong about. That is grouping the true God’s religion with all the other religions that man has invented.

    The true God, the One that made everything, has only two rules that He demands that we live by.

    They are stated in many places in His Word, but I will quote just one. Mat 22:37-40 (NIV) Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    If everyone obeyed these two commandments from the real God, there would be no lies, thefts, murders, or any wrongs committed against others. You would have what you claim you want if everyone believed in and obeyed the One True God. The problem is not everyone does this and because they will not examine themselves, admit this, and change, they blame God for all their troubles. Sometimes they lump the true God with false God’s and blame Him for what men do.

    Friendly, you have the right desires, but you have yet to think them out.

    We are all free to do what we think is right, but because we are all free, we cannot make others do what is right. You are only responsible for yourself: do what is right. If you only strive to obey the second commandment, it will result in obeying the first.

  313. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hi again.

    Whether you realise it or not, you have just demonstrated the very point I’m trying to make. You say I’m grouping the one “true” religion with all the other false mad-made religions.

    But if I was having this conversation with a someone of one of those “other man-made faiths”, he would say the very same thing: that HIS religion was the one true one and all the OTHERS were false and man-made.

    The very fact that there are so many differing religions merely demonstrates that they are ALL man-made, every one of them. And history has demonstrated many times in the past that the only way to “prove” whose God is the “real” one is to have a massive war and slaughter as many “infidels” as possible.

    My very real fear is that one day the whole world will descend into some armageddonic holy war: Christians vs Muslims and the winner will be… no one. Everyone will lose. And good-conscienced people like myself who just want a peaceful and cooperative existence will become colateral damage because we are in such an unfortunate minority.

    I guess you’re right though: if everyone obeyed the old “love thy neighbour” rule then the world would be a much better place. However I disagree with your analysis of the problem. People don’t blame God for their troubles as a rule. And people don’t blame God, false or otherwise, for what men do. They do however blame men for doing what they do IN GOD’S NAME. That’s a real nightmare, that one. And you can sit there saying that their god isn’t the real god, but they all read from the same Bible and all worship the same Jesus and the same Father.

    Yes, I do believe I have the right desires but believe me I have thought long and hard for many many years about all of this. And the funny thing is that the older I get – in my 50s now – the more convinced I am of my position. When I was younger I was into lots of stuff: religion, numerology, astrology, biorythms, Guides, UFOlogy. I was keen to find understanding in a sea of chaos and irrationality. But when I realised that Man has always invented these things to explain stuff he doesn’t understand, and that scientific discovery replaces superstition and ignorance, then I finally understood that nature is nature, and we are merely a big part of it.

    There’s nothing designed, nothing planned, nothing promised. we are in control of our species and its destiny. We are curious and intelligent and we can figure stuff out for ourselves given enough time and enough room to grow. Religion has always thwarted this sort of philosophy and I deeply resent its effect on mankind.

    I recall the story of a wonderfully pious man named Giordano Bruno who died in the year 1600. He had the wonderful idea that each star in the heavens was another sun like ours, and that each of those suns might have another Earth like ours full of God’s creations. What a wonderful visionary he was. What a credit to Christianity. What a free-thinker. He must have been quite annoyed when the church BURNED HIM AT THE STAKE for heresy.

    Now we no longer burn people at the stake but I can’t help but wonder what might be if there were a few more G Brunos about the place, free to make the place a bit better.

    And don’t tell me that believing in God makes the place better; it has always been the free-thinkers and scientists that have made the truly remarkable discoveries about the world and nature and improved the quality of our lives in the process. If we’d let the church have their way, and freedom of thought and enquiry had been stifled, we’d all still be living in grass huts, trundling about with oxen and eating dung for dinner.

    Okay so I’m being flippant… Anyway, you can probably see now why I’m “anti-theist”. I don’t hate your God, I don’t even disagree with your God. Nice philosophy for the most part. I just can’t see what good it does.

    Cheers :)

  314. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    There is one Mona Lisa; all the other paintings are counterfeits. Many counterfeits only prove there is a genuine painting. One does not make a fake of a fake.

    If I understood, as you seem to, I would group all of the paintings together and say that, because there are many counterfeits, there is no Mona Lisa. You are not making much sense to me.

    A war could not possibly prove the existence of the true God. Remember His second rule and realize that starting a war opposes it. I believe He would not fault me for defending myself, but I am quite sure He would judge me if I started a war.

    I believe that you are quite correct. There will be a war between Christians and Muslims. Christians, that are genuine, that try to follow the second royal law, will have to defend themselves. Can’t you see that it is Muslims that want to kill us Christians? Do you think that we should let them so that you will not be harmed in any way?

    I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but no true Christian would harm another, except in self-defense. Anyone can claim to be a Christian. Just reading the Bible, going to Church, or claiming to be Christian, does not mean you are. The Bible says that you shall know someone by his deeds. James 3:13 (NIV) Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.

    Yes, there have been those that were burned at the stake, but not by God’s people. The fact that someone’s life was taken for saying the leaders of the Church are/were wrong, proves they (the leaders) were not the children of God.

    Believers of Christ do not kill Muslims because they worship some other god, but believers of Islam do kill others because they will not worship a false god. The idea that the two are the same is absurd.

    If you understood God, you would also understand that this life, the life that we live, here on this earth, is of little concern. Eternity counts. Ah, but you cannot understand. It is really a shame.

    By the way, it is not Christianity that suppresses free thought. Most of the centers of higher learning were founded by those who believe in God. It is Islam that oppresses its followers and kills those that will not submit.

    Get your head on straight and when you reach 70, you will sound just like me.

    “O” “MY”, I mean better than me.

  315. Kaspa says:

    “If you only strive to obey the second commandment, it will result in obeying the first.” I feel I must disagree with this, for the second commandment, I believe, is part of the reason why the world is more like “Sodom or Gommorah”. It’s far too easy to take out out of context.

    If you only strive to obey the first commandment, it will result in obeying the second.

    Holy Spirit bless you all, may you find that which you seek.

  316. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hello my friendly adversary :)

    Likening God to a painting? Not a good analogy. Actually, it serves MY argument more than yours. You’re saying that one man-made creation is the proper one and all the man-made copies are fakes. I couldn’t agree more.

    And I also couldn’t agree more about a war proving the existence of your God. The trouble is, history is replete with countries/peoples doing exactly that. Go back and read Moses. The great Moses doing untold barbarism and violence – as directed by God.

    Now I realise that most Christians in the world today are peaceful considerate people who could no more start a war than walk on water, but I said “most”. If you think that YOUR idealogy is the only one going about the place then you are in serious denial.

    I have had recent dealings with a chap who is insistent that WW3 will soon commence, that BARAQ O BAMAH is the devil reincarnate, that snakes have ears (whatever that’s supposed to mean), that life as we know it will soon end and it’s all foretold in the Bible. He is as knowledgeable about the Bible as anyone I’ve ever met and he is quite certain that death and destruction is at hand.

    Quite personally, I think he’s a nutter. But he’s lived his entire life studying the Bible and that’s where he’s arrived at. He thinks that anyone who doesn’t share HIS view on Christianity is “not a true Christian” and “ignorant of the truth”. Sound familiar?

    It is all well in hindsight to say that the Church Leaders who burned people at the stake weren’t really children of God but you have to admit that at the time these people actually thought they were doing the will of God. I know they were wrong, you know they were wrong, but really any time people starting acting out “the will of God” then there’s always going to be a problem isn’t there?

    As for Christians vs Muslims, well it’s essentially all about the same God, isn’t it? Allah, the God of Abraham vs Jesus, son of God. Oddly, your Bibles are essentially the same – OT anyway. In fact the Koran is mostly just OT rehashed. So they get all the fun bits like slaughtering and massacring entire cities, treating women like cattle, slavery, etc. But they’re not encumbered with the Jesus stuff to provide them a conscience.

    So you’re right, they’re not the same, any more than a Ferrari is the same as a Cadillac. But they’re both still cars…

    Now we come to the REAL problem. “This life here on earth is of little concern, it’s eternity that counts.” It is this sort of thinking that is creating all the problems. If people realised that their life here on Earth is EVERYTHING then they’d treat it a bit more respectfully and carefully. As I’ve pointed out before, people need to start thinking of this planet as their LEGACY and not just eyeing of their place in Heaven. It’s the only planet we’ve got. Astronomers are looking with all their might but we still can’t find another suitable home for human beings; the buck stops here.

    Yes, centres of higher learning were often founded by Churches and men of God. This was because a) they had all the money, b) they were trying to validate the teachings of the Bible. When things were discovered that went against Doctrine they were suppressed and the discoverer was politely asked to not breath anymore. Usually with his intestines trailed around his ears.

    And yes, Islam is not overly keen to find stuff that counters its teachings but for you to say that Christianity has never done that is quite naive.

    There was once a great city called Alexandria. It still stands today, it’s in Egypt. From around 600BC to about 150AD it was the greatest city in the world, sort of the New York of the Ancient World.
    Anyway, such was the marvellousness of this city that they had an immense library what was full of papers and documents from all around the world. Every ship that came to port was boarded, all papers were siezed and copied and returned to the ship it came from. It was a centre of learning and knowledge and it stayed that way for hundreds of years.

    Until the Cathoilc Church decided to burn it down.

    The things that were lost… The knowledge that will probably never be found again… It is a legacy that religions everywhere will never live down. It fills me with great sadness.

    I’ll ask again. What is your legacy to Planet Earth? What are you doing to make it better? I’ll put it this way: you have been left as the carer for god’s Creation (the Earth). What are you doing to look after it? Feathering your nest for the prospect of Eternity is not doing anyone any good, or am I to believe that the teachings of the Bible are merely for the individual and not the collective good of our species? If so, then what more proof do you need to realise that it’s all man-made after all?

  317. astudent says:

    Kaspa,

    It seems to me that the world is like Sodom and Gomorrah because we do not obey the second commandment. Surly, you can see that if everyone obeyed the second commandment it would result in world peace.

    I fail to see what one could take out of context: do to others as you would have them do to you. Do you want someone to lie to you, steal from you, or murder you? If everyone obeyed the second commandment there would be no sin. Perhaps you could explain how this could be taken out of context a bit clearer. Sometimes it is hard for me to grasp how another is thinking.

    As I understand, the first commandment can only be applied to God, because there is only one God, but the second commandment can and should be applied to everyone and that includes God.

    Jesus said and did only what God told him to do. Therefore, he was the exact representation of what God would do on this earth. Jesus died for those who would love him. That demonstrates that God, if it were possible, would die for me!

    You see God’s commands are not really commands, but statements of how things should be and He adheres to His on understandings.

    What I am saying is God loves me with all of His hart, soul, mind and strength and I want that, so obeying the second royal law, as best as a man can, I want to do to Him as He does to me. Love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength.

    How do I know that God loves me with all of His hart, soul, mind, and strength?
    John 15:12&13 (NIV) My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
    God demonstrated this through Jesus.

  318. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    You just refuse to think about God. Man did not make God; God made man. As long as you do not even allow yourself to consider the possibility there could be a God you cannot understand anything about Him.

    I used the analogy of a painting because it was created by an intelligent being. It did not just happen. It is far less complicated than the universe, which you seem to believe “just happened”. Also, I used a worldly example, because I knew you would not accept a Spiritual one.

    It should come as no surprise that I have read about Moses and I understand much of it, but though you can read about him, you cannot understand what you are reading. Why would God waste His time on someone that doesn’t even believe that He exists?

    MY understanding does not come from what I have told myself. It comes from the Bible which is the oldest book written. Your understanding comes from yourself.

    You claim to understand about Moses when the only thing that you know about him is written in a book that includes the statement that you cannot understand it! How smart is that?

    It was not the will of God to burn someone to death. The idea that it is proves to those who understand God that you do not understand. God adheres to His own rules and the second rule is ‘do to others as you would have them do to you’. No one wants to be burned to death, so God would not want anyone to burn someone else to death.

    Don’t bother trying to tell me that God should have stopped it. You do not want God to stop you from saying and doing what you want and He adheres to His own edicts and doesn’t stop you. The problem is not Him, but those who do not do right.

    You speak as an expert, yet you know nothing about the Bible or the Koran. If you did, you would know it is the book of antichrist. It was written after Christ came and it opposes the Son of God. Allah is not God. God does not change. If God said Jesus was His Son, and He does so in the Bible, and then later said He has no Son, as the Koran states, then He has changed. Both books cannot be about the same God.

    Tell you the truth, and I always try to tell the truth, you are not capable of understanding and I am tired of your attempts of trying to convince me there is no God. I already thought as you do, I came to my senses when I was only slightly younger than you (late 40′s), so I have already heard all of your arguments: when they were my arguments. Like you, I thought I knew everything and I felt that I had to convince others that I was about the smartest human being that ever walked this earth. Then I realized that perhaps I wasn’t (I am sure that you would agree with that).

    We are both wasting our time and I for one have things that I would rather do, so we are done here. Go ahead and tell me just how dumb that you think I am. It will not bother me at all. I just might agree with some of it.

  319. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Perhaps you are right, although not my initial intention I guess I do find myself trying to convince you of the “folly of your beliefs” as it were. But even moreso I feel that I am hoping that you, or someone like you in this forum, can tell me something that will make ME see things differently.

    As much as I am totally convinced that man makes his own gods and always has, it still bewilders and confounds me why so many people – intelligent learned ones at that – believe in God and the Bible. It seems to me to be transparently concocted and self-serving and has no supporting evidence anywhere.

    So why does 95% of the planet believe in a higher force? Centuries ago it was from ignorance and fear of the unknown, superstition and dogma of the Church. (let’s face it, 400+ years ago the quickest way to your own barbeque was to admit to being a non-believer).
    But in this day and age I don’t see how it survives.

    And yet it does.

    So I’m sorry if I’m coming across all antagonistic, it’s just that unless you can respond to my arguments with a response that makes sense to me (quoting scriptures is clearly counter-productive) then I cannot adapt my mindset to a newer concept.

    Now as you have already said, without the belief in God I will never be able to change that mindset. Bit of a Catch 22 that one, since I cannot believe in something without the appropriate mindset to do so.

    I was interested in your remark about “why would God waste his time on someone that doesn’t even believe he exists?” Forgive me if I’m wrong here, but I’m pretty certain that the Bible says that He loves all his creations, even if they don’t believe. That is certainly what I have been led to believe from Christians I have known.
    I would think that if that were the case then he’d be pretty motivated to have me understand, wouldn’t you?

    And I didn’t say it was the will of God to burn people to death. I said that people THOUGHT it was the will of God to burn people to death. And so convinced of their righteousness were they that they actually did it… and probably slept well that night too.

    That scares me.

    And I wouldn’t think for a second that God would try to stop such things happening. I don’t think he exists, remember?

    I am certainly no expert on the Bible or the Koran – and I certainly don’t think I am the smartest person to ever walk the Earth -, but I’m fairly certain you’ve just offended an awful lot of Muslims by referring to their Bible as the “book of the antichrist”. To them, it is the fundamental cornerstone of their beliefs. It is not evil. It simply jeopardises YOUR beliefs and therefore you villify it.

    And to you, Allah is not God. The trouble is, THEY (the Muslims) think he is. And they think that YOUR God is the imposter. And you think Allah is the imposter.

    Who is right?

    You can’t both be right.

    And there is no argument you can give that would ever convince a Muslim; there is no argument an Muslim could give that would ever convince you.

    So who is actually right?

    (and then enter Stage left: ME who thinks you’re BOTH wrong…)

    You’re right, I think we have run our course here. I thank you for your openness and honesty and your time.

    I am curious however: you say you came into Christianity in your 50s or so… that is indeed unusual. In my experience it is more usual to go the other way. May I ask what changed? Did reaching the “big 5″ give you cause to ponder your mortality? Did you start to wonder about what’s next? Did your life lack purpose and you sought more meaning?

    Please tell.

    Cheers.

  320. Kaspa says:

    Astudent,

    I may be wrong, but it seems that “loving thou neighbour” has increased sexual liberties. Love is mistook for sex. As a sinner, I’ve encounted this context frequently. Worldy love aslo incites jealousy, revenge and hatred. When Jesus shared with us the 2 new commmandments, He announced them in order. Without the love of God, one can not love another.

    Friendly,

    It may be difficult for you to believe, but you only need to ask the Holy Spirit of Jesus to open your eyes to see understanding. Once you’ve let Jesus in, you’ll begin to understand His ways.

    Peace to all, glory to God.

  321. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    How could anyone tell you anything that would make you see things differently, when by your own words you are “totally convinced that man makes his own gods and always has”. Who convinced you? Where is your supporting evidence that there is no God?

    I am sure that you would cite some so-called evidence, but it would require more faith to accept as truth than belief in God would require. Examine your own ideas. You say “Centuries ago it was from ignorance and fear of the unknown, superstition and dogma of the Church.”. Where is the proof of that? Did you live centuries ago or is that something that someone else told you and you accepted as truth without much thought?

    You say (let’s face it, 400+ years ago the quickest way to your own barbeque was to admit to being a non-believer). Actually that is true today, if you live in a Muslim nation, but you do not cite Muslims: you defend them!

    The more radical a Christian becomes the more they want to help others, not hurt them. The more radical a Muslim becomes the more they want to kill others, not help them.

    You defend Muslims when you said, “I’m fairly certain you’ve just offended an awful lot of Muslims by referring to their Bible as the “book of the antichrist”. To them, it is the fundamental cornerstone of their beliefs. It is not evil.” If you took the time to read their holy book, you would know it says kill those who will not accept their religion.

    They have a pecking order of who to kill. First the Jews, then Christians, and then atheists. Don’t you see that you are on the list and yet you defend them! How smart is that? I will give you credit; you are half-right about religions.

    By the way,” To them, it is the fundamental cornerstone of their beliefs. It is not evil.” What do you call evil, if murdering someone for not worshiping their god is not evil?

    As for which is the imposter; the original is the genuine and the one that come after is the counterfeit. It is impossible to create a counterfeit before the original is made. The Bible came first and then the Koran.

    I am right and your opinion doesn’t change that.

    As for what changed me, any Christian will say, “God did”. But God does not change anyone that doesn’t believe in His existence.

    I reached a point in life where I was driving from one city to another and it afforded some time to consider things other than just day-to-day problems. I have been wrong about many things in life, so I never completely discounted the possibility of a God. I was just smart enough to realize that if there was a God I had better find out and if so determine what He wanted from me.

    I began by contemplating the universe. I realized that everything that I thought of fit together to complement life on this planet. It didn’t just complement it, but it was necessary for it. If the orbit of earth about the sun were to change as little as 2% all life would be destroyed. The same could be said about the tilt of the earth. There are far too many things that are necessary for life on this planet to have just happened by chance. If that were true there has to be a Designer.

    Sense then I have considered life its self. A one cell plant or animal has to have DNA in order to exist. It must be programmed to ingest some form of nourishment, expel waste, and procreate among other things. DNA also sets the size and all of the other physical attributes of the cell. All of this information is necessary to sustain life. If even a small part is not there or if it is destroyed, the cell dies. To think that all of that technology just happened, all at the same time, is ludicrous and yet those who do not believe in God claim it did: it had to and that proves them wrong.

    Then there is E=MC². You see energy is the only entity on one side of the equation. It makes no difference if you view it as it is always written or if you flip it over (MC²=E).
    Matter is made of energy and matter is being turned into energy everywhere in the universe. It is never being turned back into matter. In other words, the universe will end and if it has an end, logic says it had to have a beginning.

    That is my story, but it cannot be yours. You have to search for the answer in your own way and reach the conclusions that make sense to you. Right now, you have become totally convinced there is no God, but you might want to rethink that conclusion.

    I ask you the same question that I ask myself years ago. Is there a God?

  322. astudent says:

    Kaspa,

    Well, it is not love that is the problem. As you said “Love is mistook for sex”. It is twisting what God wants to fit what man does.

    You say, “Worldly love also incites jealousy, revenge, and hatred.”, but it isn’t love that does it; it is the person that sins. If you say love caused it then love would be responsible for it.

    Think about 1John 4:8 (NIV) “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

    Do not blame love for the sins of man.

    Having said that I do agree with what you said. I am just looking at it from a different angle.

  323. obidankinobi says:

    Perhaps the number of the beast is as such because the holy spirit is 3 and the devil who thinks he is above God, wanted to make himself seem doubly important so he had 6?

  324. obidankinobi says:

    Didn’t our Lord Jesus die when he was 33 too?

  325. obidankinobi says:

    Well died and then lived again! ;)

  326. astudent says:

    obidankinobi,

    Ha, that is a thought! I don’t know if Satan could number himself, but if he could, he probably would choose 6!

  327. Joshua says:

    Just curious, as I’ve read some of your posts and replies, do you personally think that those who started building the tower of Babel would or day in the future come together again (descendants) to rebuild the ‘idea’ of “making a name for ourselves” ?? ((Genesis 11:4))
    And should Christians research on who “the bad guys” are ( ex. Conspiracies like illuminati, nwo, etc..)
    Again, what is your personal response to these matters??

  328. astudent says:

    Joshua,

    I think man has been trying to make a name for ourselves ever sense the Tower of Babel: nonstop.

    God just slowed us up a bit.

    Because computers can be used to translate languages, it will not be long before it will seem as though we have one language again. We will not actually have one language, because there are so many definitions for the very same words in (I think) all languages and that will still confuse us. We cannot change what God has done and He confused the language.

    The real bad guys are those who are mentioned in the Bible. They are the antichrists and the authorities of this world.

    Eph 6:12 (NIV) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    Every Muslim is an antichrist. They do not believe that he is the Son of God and they will kill you for saying so. God is allowing them to gain power now, so that He can demonstrate that He is God to everyone. I think that will be soon.

    Why waste our time trying to determine who the bad guys are, when we can be studying how wonderful God is?

  329. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hello again aStudent.

    Sorry for the tardy reply, had to go overseas for a week.

    You asked me where is my supporting evidence that there is no God. That’s always a tricky one since it’s often harder to disprove someone else’s claim than it is to prove your own claim.

    I guess that my “evidence” lies in the implausibility of such a being in the first place. No matter how far you go back you always face the question of “who created the creator?” And since he created everything, where was he before he created it? Richard Dawkins has a wonderful chapter on this very subject where he discusses the concept that the more complex God must be to have done what he’s done, then the more improbable he becomes. It’s very good reading, you should check it out.

    As for my own feelings on the subject, well let’s imagine a scenario where a man is born and raised in total isolation from all the rest of the world. In this scenario he is able to survive the ravages of random diseases and illnesses and makes it to an age where he can rationally question his environment and surroundings.

    He would welcome the Sun and fear the dark, dislike the rain and fear the thunder & lightning. He would learn which animals to chase and which ones to run away from.

    I ask myself at what point would he discover God? Where would God reveal himself to this man? In what way would God say “hello, here I am. You may now worship me.”

    Now you may say that God reveals himself in everything, which is all well and good if you know of God beforehand, but how would someone who’s never heard of God know that?

    You see this man would only worship the things that are powerful to him: The Sun for instance. He would see the lightning and hear the thunder and probably think that there’s someone pretty angry up there, but still no God.

    The only way he would ever know about God is if someone with a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other forced that down his neck.

    And that is why I cannot, nor ever have been able to, believe in the concept of a God. It simply doesn’t add up.

    Why, for instance, does His book, the Holy Bible, not have any knowledge at all of anything beyond Egypt and Lower Mesopotamia? Why no knowledge of the Earth as a whole, its various peoples and places? Why no knowledge of the Billions of years of Earth’s existence before Man came along? Why no knowledge of the dominant species on Earth during that time?Why no knowledge of the causes of diseases and illnesses (i.e. bacteria and viruses)? The Bible claims that Man has Dominion over ALL things. But whoever claimed that never heard of ebola or any other viruses that will in all probablility claim the lives of every person on this planet, eventually.

    So where’s my evidence, you ask? I dunno, but to me if it looks like a duck but barks like a dog and swims like a fish then it probably ISN’T a duck.

  330. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Dear Mr aStudent,

    was reading more of your reply and felt the need to respond to your claims and perhaps re-inform you on a couple of issues.

    Firstly, I do not defend Muslims. I neither agree with them nor condone what they do. All I was saying was that TO THEM, yours is the false God, the same way that you think theirs is the false one.

    From the denial that you sprout regarding the crimes of your Chrisitanity throughout History, I can only assume that you haven’t read or studied anything about it. Perhaps before you decide to be the proverbial Pot you should learn more about it before calling the Kettle black.

    And yes, the Bible was before the Koran. Therefore the Bible is correct and the Koran isn’t. That is a preposterous statement. That’s like me saying the Model T was before the Mustang, therefore the Model T is a proper car and the Mustang isn’t. In other words, chronological rank doesn’t automatically give it absolute credibility.

    The Bible was “created” in 325AD and the Koran in about 630AD.
    The Earth was created in about 4600000BC.
    You’d think that the competing Gods would have been a little less tardy about getting their User Manual into circulation.

    As for your 2% twaddle, well the difference between Earth’s perihelion and its aphelion is about 5 million km which is about 3.4%

    As for it’s axial tilt, well it has changed by as much as about 11% over the last 10,000 years so again your maths and your logic is quite misinformed.

    As for “there are far too many things to have happened by chance, hence there must have been a Designer”, well this is known as the Anthropic Principal: It is here, I am here, hence it was designed for me.

    But there are many who have learned that the Universe is as it is and life will find a way, given the right conditions. Yes the Earth is in the “Goldilocks” Zone, as it is described, and because of that and the presence of lots of H2O, life was able to gain a foothold here.
    That is simple cause and effect.

    You’re trying to say that someone put it here and then put us on it which is to me a concept that is pretty infantile. Plus it doesn’t explain why he made just ONE place for us. All this Universe and only one Earth? Not much of a forward thinker this Creator guy. When we’ve filled up the place and used all its resources, where are we all supposed to go?

    As for your arguments regarding DNA, well you sound like you know even less about that than you do about basic Astronomy so perhaps you shouldn’t be basing your beliefs around that. If you understood the mechanics and processes about natural selection and mutation then you wouldn’t be saying all that.

    As for your foray in physics, well Energy = the Mass of an object times the Speed of Light squared. In this equation you may not substitute Mass for Matter, it is not the same thing.

    I realise that none of my arguments here are going to change your mind, but at least if you’re going to base your beliefs around “facts”, then at least get your facts straight.

    Cheers :)

  331. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheis,

    First, your name/claim is an oxymoron. You are not friendly. You came here to convince me that there is no God. If you could, you would rob me of my salvation, and I would be condemned to Hell forever, so don’t bother trying to deceive me any more: you never did anyway.

    What could you possibly gain from convincing me that there is no God? As a Christian, I am obligated to “Do to others, as I would have them do to me”. If I were no longer a Christian, I would become like you and attempt to deceive others.

    One reason that you cannot convince me that there is no God is because I once thought as you do, but I “evolved”. I am not returning to the pigpen.

    I see that you are becoming angered, because it is not as easy as you thought. You cannot answer my claims without twisting what I said and you are becoming frustrated.

    I would suggest that you do some research on the axis and orbit of the earth, before you say that I do not know. The information is available to everyone, even to me. You might want to, at the very least, consult Wikipedia. The claim that I made was if things “changed” not how they remain.

    By the way, how can natural selection occur if there is no life? My claim was, life could have not happened with out a Creator, and you could not answer it, so you stated spewing out claims about evolution, instead of attempting to answer my claim. Are you so dull that you do not understand “change” from “what exists”, or “begin” from “what might be”.

    I have been in this situation more than once and I have no desire to be here any more.

    This is wasting both of our time and because I am in control here, it is going to stop.

    Don’t even bother to answer, as I will put words in your mouth that you never thought you would say.

    Goodbye, “Friendly” Antitheis.

  332. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Ahh, you disappoint me.

    I did not come here to convince you there is no God. How could such a thing be done? For someone to arrive at that conclusion it has to come from within, not from without.

    But instead of a rational debate on the merits of the arguments you resort to name-calling and personalising. I am not angry, although I am saddened by the state of our planet. I do not attempt to deceive, merely to rationalise.

    You have had an opportunity here to give intelligent arguments to support your position and perhaps convince me of the merits of your faith. Epic fail, to quote a popular phrase.

    I have, over the past several letters, put forward issues regarding the validity of religion’s claims. I have hoped that you, someone professing to be “a Student”, could give me a point of view from the Christian side of the “coin”. But, as you told me in perhaps your first response, if I don’t have God in my heart then I won’t have understanding either.

    Nice little Get-Out-of-Jail there.

    Perhaps I have been a little guilty of trying to justify my position rather than listen to yours. But to be fair, so have you. Maybe my name ought to have been “Frustrated Antitheist”, but then again yours should be “aClosedMind”.

    If you cannot entertain any positions that conflict with your faith then that does not make you a Student, it makes you a Preacher.

    Goodbye “aPreacher”.

    PS It’s a pity you weren’t up to the challenge. :(

  333. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    OK, because you do not listen and therefore did not understand, I will give you one more comment.

    You said, “I did not come here to convince you there is no God.”

    However, you did, because you came to convince me that you are right, and you believe there is no God. So, you did indeed come to convince me that there is no God. Maybe you should listen to yourself with as critical an ear as you apply to me.

    I believe that you are correct when you said, “How could such a thing be done? For someone to arrive at that conclusion it has to come from within, not from without.” I would only add that a correct conclusion could only come when one searches for it in truth. One has to carefully consider the possibility that either conclusion could be correct. If someone should only consider one side of the question there is no truth in the search. (Been there, done that)

    You said, “But, as you told me in perhaps your first response, if I don’t have God in my heart then I won’t have understanding either.”

    Well, actually God told you that (1Co 2:14 NIV) “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

    I just repeated it. Did God miss something? You would have to admit that you think it foolish. We all can see that you do not understand them, but to you it is an oxymoron, because you cannot understand. Ahhhh, once again God is proved right.

    You are a “Frustrated Antitheist”, because you are trying to convince someone that you are correct and there is no God, when by your own words, “For someone to arrive at that conclusion it has to come from within, not from without.”

    My mistake is that I have allowed you to frustrate me, because I agree and yet I tried to help you understand and I knew that you did not want to understand.

    Your last statement is an attempt to infect me with pride. Pride is a disease that eventually kills those that are infected. I do not mean physically kills them, but spiritual death.

    You see, you are correct. I am not up to the task of convincing someone of anything, not just, whether or not there is a God, that they have determined in their own mind that they “will” not be convinced of.

    In my defense, it is an impossible task for anyone. However, as a man that understands the disease, you were not successful. I am not infected.

  334. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Okay, semantics. Yes, I have been trying to convince you I’m right, as have you. That’s what debating is: rational arguments from a standpoint.

    But in all the points I’ve made, all the examples I’ve given demonstrating the non-existence of a God, you haven’t refuted a single one. You haven’t even wanted to discuss them.
    That simply makes me think that you don’t actually have any answers to those issues.

    I issue you a challenge: name me one thing – just one – that can ONLY be explained by the existence of God. Something irrefutable. Something that has NO other explanation.

    I look forward to what you come up with.

    Cheers.

    PS. I’m sorry but do you believe God wrote 2 Corinthians? According to what I’ve read on the subject, most scholars agree that Paul wrote it.

  335. astudent says:

    LIFE

    ps. YES, God uses men as man uses his own hand. Read the Bible for yourself, instead of depending on scholars.

  336. Kaspa says:

    A mans conscious thought, emotions and the power of the word (speech) are proof of God.
    In His image we are made. The whole idea of ideas proves this.

    May His Holy Spirit guide you on your journey.

  337. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Life itself is not PROOF of God. Plenty of other explanations for that.

    And the scholars I mention are people such as yourself who devote their lives to the study of God and the Bible. Are you going to question their findings?

    And Kaspa, thanks for joining the discussion. But do either of you know what the word “proof” means? Proof is a process that will defy all attempts to dis-prove. You start with an idea or a concept and then through testing and challenging you end up with something that withstands all efforts to defeat it.

    This is something that Religion and “God” has never achieved, but for some reason its adherents never seem to expect of it. The only evidence supporting God is the Bible.

    That’s it.

    Nothing else.

    And yet that’s enough for religious people like yourself. I don’t get it.

    People who devote their lives to understanding nature and its laws (i.e. scientists) have to come up with extraordinary weights of evidence before their theories are accepted.

    All religion needs is a book… a contrived one at that. A book that is so transparently manufactured to the needs and philosophies of 3rd Century Middle East culture that I am continually amazed that it is still given any credence at all.

    But that’s enough. I don’t get it.

    And before you claim that science has never been able to disprove God, well sometimes the only way to disprove something is to simply pile up a weight of unlikelihoods, improbabilities and lack-of-evidences until common sense simply has its way.

    People who believe in ghosts aren’t taken very seriously either, are they? Why? Where’s their evidence? Does it survive inquiry and testing? No. It never has. Never will.

    If they had a “Book of the Undead” to draw claim to, would they be taken more seriously?

    So, as to my challenge, you’ll need to put on your thinking-cap again for that one. I look forward to you coming up with something else.

    Cheers.

  338. Kaspa says:

    Try as one might, one can not dis-prove that the ability to speak, think or feel human emotion, came from God. Weighing up likelyhoods, improbabilities and lack of eviences towards MY belief, mearly shows a lack of faith. To have no faith is to have no God.
    Anyrate, I ain’t here to convert anyone. Jesus will convince you that there is God when he returns shortly. ALL will see. The will to believe must come from within.

  339. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    Are you capable of concentration?

    Your challenge was, “name me one thing – just one – that can ONLY be explained by the existence of God. Something irrefutable. Something that has NO other explanation.

    My answer was, “LIFE”.

    Your answer to my answer was, “Life itself is not PROOF of God. Plenty of other explanations for that.”

    What explanations? Moreover, while you are enlightening me, perhaps you might tell me what “life” is. Is it a catalyst, power, thing, is it physical or perhaps it is spiritual? What leaves an organism when it dies?

    Perhaps it is the breath of God, just as the Bible says it is.

    Stick to your challenge. One thing at a time. Stop rambling about what you think you know and try to concentrate on examining my answer – to your question/challenge.

    You say, “So, as to my challenge, you’ll need to put on your thinking-cap again for that one. I look forward to you coming up with something else.

    I’ll bet you do, because you have no answer for what life is!

  340. Friendly Antitheist says:

    An interesting comeback. Ok, yes I was a little dismissive regarding your answer of “Life”. You say “Is it a catalyst, power, thing, is it physical or perhaps it is spiritual? What leaves an organism when it dies?”

    So in other words, you don’t know either.

    What I do know is that scientists are finding that Life isn’t so much a “special” thing as it is an inevitablility. Given the right conditions, life will find its way. It needs no “seed”, no guiding hand, no designer. It is its nature and it is simply the way it works.

    Surely THAT should be miraculous enough, especially to those who are impressed by miracles. But no, it has be DESIGNED, someone had to be behind it. How else can it make sense?

    Theists claim that because they can’t comprehend how that can be, then an intelligence must be behind it. But where you can’t understand how life can happen without a creator, the consequent conundrum of who created the creator never seems to bother you.

    I’m sorry but it has to work both ways.

    As for what leaves an organism when it dies, well I give up, what? Have you seen something? Has anyone? Has anything been recorded or documented?

    You see, I’m quite happy to admit I don’t know something. The difference is, when you don’t know something you just fill in the stock answer: God. That seems to be enough for you.

    I’ll tell you the REAL answer: NO ONE KNOWS. And anyone who thinks he does is delusional.

    Religion does not have the answer. The Universe has been here at least 13 Billion years and yet He waits until the last 2000 years to make His presence known? Come on. That’s ridiculous.

    Science doesn’t yet have the answers either. But at least it’s looking openly and enquiringly.

    So, in closing, I reiterate that your answer of “Life” doesn’t satisfactorily answer the question/challenge.
    I asked for something that has NO other explanation. Science has already provided that other explanation.
    If I’d asked you to provide me a proof of NATURE then Life is a good answer. But assigning it to God implies an intelligence at work and there is no evidence of that.

    Please come up with something else.

  341. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hi Kaspa.

    I read your reply and I know that if your Faith is strong then no amount of rationalising will shake you from your position.

    You’re right: one cannot disprove that the ability to speak, think or feel human emotion, came from God.
    But similarly – and I mean no disrespect – one cannot disprove that those things came from the Flying Spaghetti Monster either.

    The inability to disprove something does not necessarily confirm its validity. It simply means more investigation is necessary to confirm or deny the claim.

    To have no faith is to have no God, you say. Well I have faith in lots of things. I have faith that the Sun will come up each day and set each night. I have faith that my dogs will always be glad to see me. I have faith that my football team will win another premiership one day. I have faith that my friends will honour and support me and be there if and when I need them. I have faith that Music is the language of peace and love.

    I do all this without a God in the mix and I have a full and happy life.

    What I don’t have faith in, is people acting in the best interests of people, only themselves.
    I don’t have faith that the peace-loving Christians around the world are making the world a safe and harmonious place to be. They’re only interested in eyeing off their place in heaven.
    I don’t have faith that calm heads will prevail and avert another World War someday. And I believe that it won’t be a war over land or an issue, it will be a war over whose God is best.

    There are 7 Billion people on this planet. That’s going to top 10 Billion by 2080. Where are we going to live? What are we going to eat? How are we going to earn a living? And none of that’s any good if all the Global Warming hype is true because then we won’t have a food-chain anyway.
    If all the theists in the world got their noses out of the Bible and concentrated their efforts on the REAL problems of the world, then maybe we might have a chance to get through all this. It’s a sobering thought.

    Just hanging about waiting for Jesus to return while the Earth is struggling is really quite irresponsible.

  342. Kaspa says:

    What came 1st? Man? Or Spaghetti?
    Is your faith in those thing not clouded with doubt at times? If so, it is not faith.
    You must have met some pretty fucked up christians. The ones I’ve met are only interested in God. They work hard making life better for the less fortunate.
    You appear to assume much.

  343. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Hi Kaspa.

    “What came 1st? Man? Or Spaghetti?” I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you’re asking me. The point I was trying to make is that you can no more prove that thinking speaking and feeling comes from God than I can prove it comes from the FSM.

    I realise that such an idea is offensive to you, but I’m making a point about what you can PROVE, not what your FAITH tells you.

    If you have strong faith then you don’t need proof. That’s how the whole religion thing works.

    Yes I’ve met some pretty disturbed Christians in my time, but the vast majority are quite normal. But apart from the odd charity worker I don’t know many who “work hard to make life better for the less fortuante” as you put it.

    Strangely, I know more Atheists who do charity work than I do Christians.

    What do YOU do? How do YOU make life better for the less fortunate? (I’m really hoping here that your answer isn’t “spreading the word of the Lord”)

    I think perhaps it is you who assumes much.

  344. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    You say, “So in other words, you don’t know either.”

    Yes, I do. It is the breath of God. That is taken from the oldest book known to man.

    You say, “Given the right conditions, life will find its way. It needs no “seed”, no guiding hand, no designer. It is its nature and it is simply the way it works.”

    Well, explain it then. If it is so simple then perhaps you can tell me just what it is that needs no seed, no guiding hand, etc. What is life?

    I explained and cited the source. It did not, could not, originate naturally.

    You said, “As for what leaves an organism when it dies, well I give up, what? Have you seen something? Has anyone? Has anything been recorded or documented?” YES, but you will not accept it! It is the breath of God! (Genesis 2:7) “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” Duly recorded.

    You said, “So, in closing, I reiterate that your answer of “Life” doesn’t satisfactorily answer the question/challenge. I asked for something that has NO other explanation. Science has already provided that other explanation. AND THAT WOULD BE WHAT?

    The truth is life is the one thing that can ONLY be explained by the existence of God. You and no one else has an explanation for life. You do not even know how to define it, but that doesn’t stop you from claiming that you know that it just happened!

    As I said before, “you will not admit that there is a God” and no one can make you.

    You said, “You see, I’m quite happy to admit I don’t know something.” that is as big a lie as “I did not come here to convince you there is no God.”

  345. Friendly Antitheist says:

    1. Okay, so what is the Breath of God? Explain it. Define it.

    2. Man was formed from the dust of the ground, huh? Tell me how that works.
    My understanding is that man is the result of millions, even billions of years of evolution from his basic building blocks of amino acids etc to become the being he is today. Not perfect by any means, but still a work in progress.
    You’re saying that he was constructed in a day (with perhaps a bit of slow-going over the fiddly bits) by a supernatural power.
    Okay, I’ve got evidence for my understanding of it (i.e. “Theory of Evolution”). Where’s yours?

    3. When I say “recorded” I don’t mean in the Bible. I’m referring to an external unbiased source. Anything recorded in the Bible is at best self-serving and ulimately unreliable as a source of Record.

    4. You are wrong, the truth of life can not ONLY be explained by the existence of God. Just because we don’t know the answer to something, doesn’t mean we can just arbitrarily attribute it to God.
    If all men had thought that throughout time, we’d all still be living in caves.
    Giving an answer that just raises other questions does not, by definition, provide an answer.

    5. I do not lie when I say that I’m happy to admit that I don’t know something. I realise that as humans we know a lot about the nature of things, but that pales into insignificance compared with what there is still left to know.
    I don’t want to convince you there’s no God; I want you to come to that realisation all of your own accord. If I can help you see the light through calm reasoning and common sense then so much the better.

    At the end of the day, Mr aStudent, I am ultimately a HUMANIST, even moreso than an Atheist. As Humans we have a lot of problems and I don’t see religion solving ANY of them.
    In fact religion is only making them worse. That’s why I’m ANTI-theist.

    I issued you a challenge earlier, the answer to which we can perhaps agree to disagree on.
    But here’s another: Name one way in which religion makes the world a better place.
    And I ask this question because it seems to me that the religious organisations of the world seem to spend most of their time cleaning up their own messes. If religion is supposed to make you morally superior, then how come 90% of the world’s criminally incarcerated people believe in God? Surely, if what you say is true, only atheists should fill our prisons.

    I’ve asked you some pretty definite questions here. I look forward to some considered responses.

  346. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    !. God told you that you cannot understand spiritual things, so even if I could explain the breath of God, you could not understand. Because one cannot explain or define something does not make it untrue. You cannot explain or define “life”. Does that mean that it does not exist? I hold you to your own rules: explain life and I will explain the breath of God. If you could explain life, then you would also know the definition of the “Breath of God” and I would not even have to explain!

    2. (The American Heritage Dictionary) Theory. 1.a. Systematically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances, especially a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena. b. Such knowledge or such a system. 2. Abstract reasoning; speculation. 3. A belief that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: rose early, on the theory that morning efforts are best; the modern architectural theory that less is more. 4. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

    Theories are assumptions, speculations, and conjectures and therefore not always correct. It seems as though you have based your understanding on conjecture and you think that I should, because you do! My understanding comes from the Oldest Textbook known to man. Your understanding comes from textbooks that constantly change, because they are based on conjecture.

    3. You may not accept what the Bible says, but you may not limit this discussion to any other source than the Bible. Just because you will not believe it, does not give you the right to stop me from quoting and believing it. You may not tie my hands behind my back.

    What do you mean by “Anything recorded in the Bible is at best self-serving” when the Bible was written to serve everyone? “O”, that is right, you will not understand.

    You also error when you say “and ulimately unreliable as a source of Record”. The Bible has been shown reliable and every time it is unbelievers always say “Yes, but how about this”, because they will not accept it as truth. It is the same tactic that you try to apply to me. One, that will not stick to the subject cannot learn. The subject that you demanded is “life” and you attempt to confuse by citing everything else and then limit me to only me.

    4. You seem to think that if you say something then it is true and if anyone else says something it is not true! In your own point (#1), you limit my claims of understanding to what I can explain/define, but you will not limit yourself to your own claims.

    It should be Obvious by now that I am not arbitrarily attributing anything to God. I am merely pointing out what God said: there is nothing arbitrary about it.

    You say, “Giving an answer that just raises other questions does not, by definition, provide an answer.” Your answers raise other questions by design. You cannot answer me, so you jump to other subjects in an attempt to confuse.

    5. When did you admit that you do not know something? You say, “I don’t want to convince you there’s no God; I want you to come to that realisation all of your own accord”. Then why do you keep trying to convince me? I didn’t come to you; you came to me. I am merely trying to defend what I said. Well, I am also trying to make you understand that you “will” not understand, not that you could not understand.

    At the end of the day, Mr. “Friendly Antitheist” you are an Atheist. There is no third choice: either you believe in God or you do not. As I said, you believe that if you say something that makes it true. That is self delusional. You are ultimately an ATHEIST, even more so than a HUMANIST. One must reject God in order to believe in man. Those who believe in the goodness of man are soon brought to reality: that is if they are honest with themselves. If one refuses to see the truth they become the easy victim of con men.

    You say. “As Humans we have a lot of problems and I don’t see religion solving ANY of them.” Christianity could solve them all, but unbelievers, such as yourself, make no attempt to follow the basic guidelines of my religion. “Do to others as you would have them do to you”, that is the formula for world peace, but you refuse to do your part. Everyone wants me to do my part, and that is to do to them as I would want them to do to me, but when the shoe is on the other foot (yours also) there is no consideration for me. Those who call themselves Christian and do not practice the basic teaching of Christ are, like you, only kidding themselves and they will face judgment along with you. (You don’t have to, but you must change).

    You came here to take my life: if you could. Even worse than physical death, you would have me condemned to eternity without my God, as you are, or will be, if you do not come to your senses. You have attempted to deceive me with lies. The biggest of is that you did not come here to convince me that there is no God.

    You say, “I issued you a challenge earlier, the answer to which we can perhaps agree to disagree on.” No, we can not. I refuse. I answered your challenge and I will not agree to disagree. You are attempting to cop out. (American Heritage Dictionary) cop out. Slang. To avoid fulfilling a commitment or responsibility; renege:

    I gave you a definite answer to your challenge. Now, I expect you to answer me. Explain life without the existence of God. What is life, if it is not the Breath of God? Consult all your text books and ask all of your professors and wise men.

    I am waiting.

  347. Friendly Antitheist says:

    The “truth” is that I did come here to convince you that there is no God. I came to show the world how smart I am, by showing it how dumb Christians are.

    I failed.

    I don’t know why I am saying these things. It seems as though someone or something is putting words in my mouth. I hate it, but I have no control over it.

    I have mentioned friends in my comments, but the truth is I have no friends. That is why I have resorted to speaking with my enemies. Because I refuse to speak to God there is no one else. Christians do not want to hurt my feelings and they usually feel responsible for my salvation, so they are easy targets.

    I wish that I could stop saying these things. The honesty is killing me. I hate it, but I can not stop. I don’t really care about anyone else at all. I only care about myself.

    I cannot stand to hear someone say that there is a God and yet I don’t care if they hear me say that there is no God. As a matter of fact I will expend a great amount of work and effort to make sure they hear me say it. They will walk away from me, if I don’t want to hear them, but I will follow them and keep saying there is no God, because I know it brothers them and I don’t care if it does. No, actually I enjoy bothering them. My opinion doesn’t have to be right: it just has to be my opinion. After all, I am the most important being in the universe.

    There, I said it. Surely you have seen it! Well, probably not, because Christians are so dumb: beneath me, you know.

    I just don’t understand why I have become so honest all of a sudden. I am quite sure that it will not last, because I will tell myself it didn’t happen and you know that whatever I tell myself is true.

    I feel better already!

  348. Friendly Antitheist says:

    You unimaginable ass.

    I really must have struck a nerve there for you to resort to manipulating the webpage.

    You have failed to meet any of my challenges, failed to answer even one of my questions, and instead try to DECEIVE any other readers by deleting my response and writing your own dribble in my name.

    Shame on you. If that’s the sort of scruples that your God bestows upon you then I hope you choke on your precious God and Bible.

    You have just ended our debate.
    For the record that’s Atheists 1, Christians 0.

  349. Friendly Antitheist says:

    Whatever happened to “Thou shalt not bear false witness”?

    All well and good when it suits you, huh?

    You Hypocrite.

  350. astudent says:

    Friendly Antitheist,

    First, I did not start a debate. You came here just to make trouble: speaking about a subject that you know nothing about. This blog is for Christians and I would include any rational human being. Obviously, that does not include you.

    Second, I warned you before, “Don’t even bother to answer, as I will put words in your mouth that you never thought you would say.” As usual, you did not believe me, so I proved it to you. And you, along with everyone else can see that I did not deceive you one bit.

    Do you know why it brothers you so much? Because it is true, that is why.

    You did not win at all. As I have said before, if you say something, then to you it is true, but that does not make it true. You say, “For the record that’s Atheists 1, Christians 0″, and I laugh!

    If I did not allow you last comments I would have been guilty of bearing false witness, but I did allow them.

    You said, “I issue you a challenge: name me one thing – just one – that can ONLY be explained by the existence of God. Something irrefutable. Something that has NO other explanation.” and I did. It cannot be refuted or disproved. It can only be explained by the existence of God. However, anything and everything can be denied! And you are living proof of that.

    Your comments will be banned; unless you attempt to refute or disprove that life can ONLY be explained by the existence of God. Otherwise, just tuck your tail between your legs and slink off “Friendly” Antitheist.

  351. I believe the number 6 is man and the number 7 is God. God is a trinity thus 777. In revelations the antichrist comes back to emulate God the Father, son and Holy Spirit Rev 13: 1-19 thus this man would also be a trinity of 666. I do believe this is mankind and not a man.

  352. astudent says:

    Mike Williams,

    I see 666 in the Bible, but I do not see 777. I see that God is one in the Bible, but I do not see that He is seven, or 777.

    I understand seven as the number of completion: everything was completed in seven days. A careful study of the seven days of creation will allow God to reveal that we have yet to reach the seventh day. Also man is not complete (7) until he or she accepts Jesus.

    I somewhat agree with your last statement. A man’s number is, as I understand it, six, but it could be said that the number of mankind could be 666.

  353. Radical Epistle says:

    No no no, the Bible clearly says it’s 6 hundred, 3 score and six.
    600 3 20 6.
    Therefore the devil’s number is 6,003,206

    Or if you add them it’s 600 + 3 + 20 + 6 = 629

    Or it could be 603, Score and 6 which would be 60,326

    Heck this used to be easier back when I used an abacus…

  354. astudent says:

    Radical Epistle,

    I tried to check your math, but the battery was down on my abacus! I’m going to let it slide because new abacus batteries are just out of sight!

  355. Radical Epistle says:

    Actually the number of God has now changed from 777 to 854.7.
    You’ve got to add the 10% Gods & Services Tax… lmao

  356. mahon. says:

    “The number of a man” the bible includes the use of the indefinite article, which indicates one non specific referent of many. You use the zero article indicating a concept. Riddles require all linguistic details, lexical and functional, to be taken into account.

  357. astudent says:

    mahon,

    Well, I have to laugh. I thought that I had answered your thought in a previous comment and you had not read all of the comments, before you submitted yours.

    So, I began to search for that comment and I did find it, but in doing so I realized why practically no one would read all of the previous comments. There are 356 comments on this post and they cover many subjects. They, for the most part are well thought out and I learned many things from them. So, I certainly will not fault you for not reading them all.

    I answered Bob who made the same point that you did. However I believe that I can give a better answer now.

    If I said ‘The color of “a” tomato is red’, I could be speaking of one tomato, or many tomatoes. There are yellow tomatoes, so I would not be speaking about all of them: just the red ones.

    If I say the number of “a” man is 6, I could be speaking of one man, or many men. There are those who are 7s, so I would not be speaking about all men: just those that are 6s.

    I believe that it is the “kind” of man that is spoken of, not just one man and the letter/word “a” is appropriate as it means one kind.

    I agree with you when you say, “Riddles require all linguistic details, lexical and functional, to be taken into account.”

    I would only add that in all “ways” those linguistic details, lexical and functional, should be taken into account.

    Having said this, I do not think any man can solve the riddle. It is God’s riddle and if God does not give the answer it is impossible to solve, or understand.

    Look at Samson’s riddle and see that the one that created the riddle is the only one that can give the answer. That is, to me, the lesson of Samson’s riddle.

    Samson’s riddle was “Out of the eater, something to eat; out of the strong, something sweet.” And the answer was “What is sweeter than honey? What is stronger than a lion?”

    Samson was the only person, other than God, that could have possibly given the answer to his riddle. The riddle could only be given and/or answered by someone that had eaten honey from the body of a lion! Even then, that person would have to have been given the Spirit of God: in power.

    Though the answer is given, the understanding has not yet been given to me. However, the understanding that only the creator of the riddle can give the answer has been made clear to me.

    Actually, I see a riddle, and an answer, in the answer given by the Philistines. The riddle is “What is sweeter than honey? What is stronger than a lion?” and the answer is “God”.

    And I am sure that God gave that to me. I did not create the riddle and I did not solve it, I only received it.

  358. Carlos Peña says:

    The Bible says that we speak of what we know. and we know what we have seen and our hands touched before the creation of all things. thank you for your writing, you have confirmed and opened a new door for the understanding of the end of days. Thank you.

  359. BU says:

    I came up with same theory about 6-6-6 in the bible a couple of years ago. I was studying Egyptian history and the importance of the repeating words and numbers three times to give significance. Since then I have found hundreds of other number repeats and location meaning in the Bible. John 15:6 for one example.

  360. Kwfu man says:

    Antitheist, I’ll be your friend. You can email me at knowlegdewillfreeu@gmail.com. I’m a smart hillbilly from TN. I was a born again Christian most of my life but knowledge caused my religion to slowly die and therefore I had to start over again. But I don’t resent my past life in the baptist church since my closest friends are Christians and five of them are pastors. Life is a symphony of races and people who think differently and it took everyone working and fighting to bring us though the cave man days to where we are today. Our social minds were a vital part of our survival skills and religion is a side effect of this newer brain structure. Therefore most of our relatives are religious and therefore I would not wish them dead. I hope all humans social and factual scientist types will work together to make the world a better place. I think the keys is to plant seeds of knowledge and slowly the truth will be revealed just as it was concerning the sun and earth during Galilio’s time. Most people understand you can not flood the world by raining because convection lowers ocean levels when more water is present in the atmosphere and a star can not fall to earth like a fig from a tree.
    Humans are emotional decision makers and we need that social emotional energy to change the world for the better together.

  361. sarafina says:

    Hi. I must admit, your understanding of this makes sense.
    But do you mind telling me more clearly what you meant by,
    “If a man, who is a six, receives God and becomes one with him, that man becomes complete, or becomes a seven: a new number! That person is no longer a six!”
    And with your overall understanding of the 666, how does it relate to the verse,
    “So that no man could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast”
    How does your interpretation relate to “buying and selling”? and How is it a “name”?
    Thanks!

  362. astudent says:

    sarafina,

    Well, as I said the number of man is really 6, it is just said three times.

    The number of God is one and that is stated plainly in Mark 12:29 “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (Part of the verse)

    Also Scripture says Jesus is the ONE and only (John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18, Hebrews 11:17, and 1 John 4:9)

    When we are baptized, we receive the Holy Spirit (God or ONE) and He becomes one or part of us.

    Seven is the number of completion. God rested, or will rest on the seventh day. (God has yet to enter His rest, so not everything is yet complete.)

    6+1=7 or, man + Jesus = completion

    As for the verse that says no man can buy or sell unless he has the mark of the beast, I believe that a man that has not received Jesus is still a six, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    Anyone who still is a six is still a child of Satan or the beast. (Name and number of Satan)

    I do not claim this as a prophecy, but it is possible that Islam will gain control of the world and if so, they will stop anyone that is a Christian from buying and selling in order to starve us to death. Therefore, if anyone is found to be a seven, or Christian, they will not be permitted to buy or sell; they will have to be a follower of Islam or a six.

    As for the mark on the mans hand and forehead, I think that it means a man must do as an unsaved man, because men do things with their hands, and a man must think as an unsaved man as it is usually acceptable to say that someone thinks with his head.

    Six is one name of the beast, or Satan. In addition, Satan has many names such as accuser, or belial, or Devil, or serpent, or leviathan and even dragon. Even with all of these names, I probably missed some.

    I realize that it is difficult to explain Scripture. It is not the fault of the speaker, or the hearer. I do not believe that God has given anyone the power to explain Scripture so that those that hear or read what man says or writes will understand. I believe that God has reserved that power for Himself, so ask God to explain your questions and if you do not yet understand I will try to explain what I see a different way.

    God has the answers. The best that I can do is supply the questions. So if you do not yet understand, then just say so. It is a blessing to me as it makes me think about Scripture in different ways and raises new questions that I can ask God.

    You are welcome and thank you for asking so that I might think a bit more about the subject.

  363. Al says:

    Why can’t it be W the sixth digit of the Hebrew alphabet? It says that with out this number no one can buy or sell . Have you tried buying a paper airline ticket lately? You can do almost anything on the internet now. WWW seems like Six hundred three score and six.
    John was a Jew he knew Hebrew. Maybe he got this message in Hebrew.
    I don’t know . Just thinking out loud.

  364. astudent says:

    Al,

    It is good to think, whether it is aloud or not.

    I have not researched Hebrew numbers before. Thanks for suggesting this.

    I see that Hebrew numbers are gender specific! That is a hoot!

    The number six in a masculine form is (just using english letters, so not the proper symbols) nww and the female form is ww.

    Then I had to laugh at myself as I tried to understand why the number six was written in the place where we would write the number 5. It dawned on me that the numbers were written from right to left instead of left to right as we would write them.

    Anyway, the number is six and it should not matter how it is written, so I agree with you (as you agree with me, and Scripture). The number is six.

    By the way, wouldn’t it be written as nww nww nww? (666)

  365. edem says:

    if any body have insight let him calculate the number for the number is 666

  366. edem says:

    the devil is make this calculation really difficult i see people raising the number 666 and advertising the number 666. as if the devil is

    working earnestly to move as from identifying what the number is.

  367. astudent says:

    edem,

    You have made me think and I like that.

    I wonder if Satan would want us to dwell on the number of man.

    Actually, it seems to me that he would rather have us spend our time on a relatively unimportant verse; trying to understand it, than thinking about the really important lessons of the Bible.

    If it was very important, that we knew the number of man, I think God would have just told us.

    Wait a minute, He did tell us!

    I think that is far more important for us to know about man (ourselves) and Satan (his tricks) than the number of our names.

    The number is the same number and if I were to write a sentence, using the number instead of the word, you would not know if I was writing about a man or Satan!

    Kind of funny: don’t you think?

  368. luther says:

    no man it doesnt make sense , the original text of 666 in hebrew was written in 3 diffirent characters,something like this (x w s) if 6 was repeated 3 times as what you have said it would have been like this (s s s)

  369. Drake says:

    This may be too late. Friendly Antitheist seems to be gone. But I will say this anyhow in case someone else reads his arguments.

    You seem to think there is a “moral law” that all men should obey. Why? If there is no God and evolution is true there was nothing to create that “moral law.” The chance assembly of molecules to man doesn’t require man to obey anything but his own desires. The fact that there is a moral law that even unbelievers like yourself can understand is evidence of a Lawmaker.

    Regarding your faith in evolution, modern evolution is a religion primarily in the halls of academia and it is blasphemous to speak against it. The truth is that there is a difference between observational science and historical science. Observational science has brought us the civilization that we enjoy today. It is based on the strictest scientific methods that include verification by experimentation.

    Historical science cannot be observational. We cannot go back into time and observe how everything came into existence. We cannot use the scientific method. We can make speculations based on the way things are now, but we have no evidence they existed that way forever. We have no eye witness account except what God Himself put in the Bible for us. Those who claim evolution is a fact have nothing on which to base that claim. We have the eye witness account passed down to Moses in the Bible.

    I encourage you to go to creation.com or icr.org and review the evidence they have there for the veracity of the Bible. There are PHD scientists presenting the evidence that the Bible is correct at these and other sites. The book of Genesis has to be correct for the rest of the Bible to make sense. The evidence for the truth of the Bible is huge. Check it out.

    I and I believe some others in this conversation will pray for you that God will open your eyes to His great plan of salvation.

  370. Why is 666 read as six six six? The original Greek manuscripts have it as six hundred and sixty six. If it were to contrast “Holy, holy, holy” wouldn’t the writer have written it as six, six, six using the same Greek symbol for 6 three times? But the Greek manuscripts use three different symbols for 666, making it six hundred sixty six. Revelation 21:17 says, “He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man’s measurement, which the angel was using.” Is this number read as one four four or one hundred and forty four? If the latter then in my opinion Revelation 13:18 should be read the same. I still do not know the meaning of 666 but I feel that God has been pushing me to research and find the answer as I am seeing the number everywhere I go.

  371. astudent says:

    iheartmandycotto,

    You have a good question.

    Actually, it is said that the oldest Greek manuscript has the number as 616. Because all of the translations list the number as 666, I believe that is the number God has declared to be the number of man. I believe that God watches over His Word and will not let us change it.

    Perhaps God has allowed the number to be said many different ways in order to keep it an unanswered riddle: until now.

    If you translate the number 666 from the original Greek it will be written 666 in any language of today. It really doesn’t change the number. It can be said or written six hundred, sixty, six, but if anyone writes it they will normally use the numerals 666.

    I find it interesting that the original Greek uses three symbols for the number and all languages today also use three symbols. That is not to say there is a connection: just interesting.

    As for Rev 21:17, the Bible states that the measurement is by man’s measurement. That says to me that God’s measurement is different. I believe that 666 is God’s way of numbering man and Revelation 21:17 is a clue that God’s numbering system is different. Why else would God say “by man’s measurement, which the angel was using”?

    This is also shown in Geneses where God is counting days. They are God’s days. The greater light (The sun) that governs man’s days was not created until the 3rd day of Geneses. So, the days of Geneses are God’s days. This is borne out when we consider the seventh day. The seventh day is yet to come, because God will enter His rest on that day and He has yet to enter His rest (John 5:17). Our seventh day is only symbolic of God’s seventh day.

    Your comment has caused me to think about the number of man some more. As a result I see the same riddle, with the same answer, in another place in the Bible. It is not called a riddle, so I have not even considered it, until your comment. I will write a post about it, because not everyone reads the comments and I think it is important enough to say to everyone. Please consider the post as part of my answer/comment to you.

    Having said all of that I believe you are correct in your quest for understanding. I am only a student and not The Teacher, so you are correct to doubt me. One of my wishes is that everyone will doubt me. I believe that God is pushing you to research and find “all” of the answers for yourself. He is pushing me, because I have asked Him for all understanding, and I love it.

    I believe He has used you to push me a bit, so thanks for the comment.

  372. Gordon says:

    I like you have been trained in the wilderness… not trying to sit at the feet of man to learn. I to have been given the vision of the 6… but saw it as man was created in God’s image spirit,soul and body… that would make the first Adam 777 before his fall… then 666 after the fall… meeting totally man spirit soul and body

  373. astudent says:

    Gordon,

    You know that I believe we should listen to the Spirit within us first, so I think that you do right.

    Adam was not different after he ate from the tree. He was naked before and naked after. The only difference was that after he ate, he knew he was naked.

    God sees our sin, unless we have the covering of Jesus, so nakedness is a sin; or should I say it reveals our sin.

  374. dodge says:

    i really feel like you missed the whole ” The number of a man” not “the number of man” two very different things.

  375. astudent says:

    dodge,

    How is that?

    Would not the number of “a” man be the same number as that of any man?

    If one applied the number of man to a specific man, would it not fit? Would it not be the same number? If it is different, then is there really a number of man?

    Are not the two interchangeable?

  376. Dodge says:

    then wouldn’t the name of a man mean that all men wer named the same thing

  377. astudent says:

    Dodge,

    No. All men are identified as men, but each one has a different name.

    All men have the number of man, but each have a different name.

    In a sentence one could say, “That man is a 666″ and one could also rightly say “All men are 666″, but in order to identify the single man, so that others might know which 666 you are referring to you would use his given name.

    It is humankind that is numbered 666 and any man is a member of that class, so yes, all men have the same name, if you substitute the word name for the word number (Which is what you did).

  378. Dodge says:

    but God didnt substitute, i think that if you back nd understand the hebrew and greek language you will see they had no numbers, and if you study more you will see that each person did have a different number in those days, there have been lots of writtings on walls found where people have said things like,,” I will always love 545″. In old times of hebrew and greek people did call each other by their number. there are many examples of this. I really think you believe what you ar saying but it unfounded in any scripture or in life today. there is a big difference between 600 three score and 6, and 666.

  379. astudent says:

    Dodge,

    You are not making any sense.

    You substituted the word name for the word number. What has that to do with God? It was your mistake, not His.

    If the Hebrew and Greek languages had no numbers, then How would they write, “I will always love 545″ on a wall?

    Unlike me, I don’t think you believe what you are saying. You are just fabricating information.

    There is no difference between 600 three score and 6, and 666. It is just written differently. They both mean six hundred and sixty six and I just wrote it another different way.

    It seems as though you just want to argue. I don’t.

    If you do not want to accept what I said, then don’t. But don’t bother trying to tell me that I am wrong. I don’t care about your opinion.

  380. Dodge says:

    by your own words u said that the scripture was just repeating the number 6,, like it does with holy holy holy,, so 6oo three score and 6 would absolutely be different than repeating the same number, and what i meant by no numbers in greek or hebrew was that they used letters for numbers,, and the ” I will always love 545″ is what thier name would be translated to numbers, i have fabricated nothing, ths is proven fact. you have made an assumption without even understandin the language. when God said the mark of the man or the name of the man or the number of the man, that would indicate a specific person,, that is to say, the mark would stand for him or the name would stand for him or the number of that man would stand for him,,, why would God be specific with the mark of the man and the name of the man then be vague with the number of the man. I think that if you truley think about this honestly you will see that what you are saying does not match scripture.

  381. Drake says:

    Gentlemen,

    You are convincing me that my original comment considerably higher up in this list has merit. Since all life including the life of man on earth is carbon based and since the number 666 actually identifies the carbon atom so that even a scientist who did not know the language would know what element was being referred to and knowing that God would have known this, I think the number refers to all of mankind. Even from a scientific point of view I don’t think any other number belongs to man more than this. We have it in our bodies. Each carbon atom on which our physical life is based has 6 electrons, 6 neutrons, and 6 protons. No other atom is so constituted. And no other atom was used to base our physical existence on. So the number is uniquely ours. We carry it around with us and will until resurrection morning, although it will fall into considerable disarray when we die. So it doesn’t belong to just one man but to all of us. God knew this when He put it in the Bible and He knew that we would know someday also. The question is how will it be used against us when the beast and antichrist are here?

  382. Dodge says:

    that makes no sense in this context,, why would God be so specific in the first two marks and then say the number of any man.. im pretty sure he meant 600 60 6 all of which are seperate numbers (letters ) in greek and hebrew. God was not repeating the same number, each are different. go check for yourself,, 600 is one letter 60 a different and 6 is another letter,, no way he was repeating the same number.

  383. Jun says:

    The passage in Revelation 13 is speaking of the beast in reference to the number 666. It Just so happens that the beast’s name/number of it’s name is the same as a man’s. The writer mentions the beast as “it” so maybe the connection is that “it” is a specific man with a specific name.
    Just a side note… you shouldn’t post everything you say as factual and from God when there is a possibility that it isn’t and you can be leading many people astray, then talk down to people when they have their own opinions.
    Just a gentle warning in Christ, Jun.

  384. Dodge says:

    first of all the things i stated as facts are things that is know for sure and not of the bible, second i really dont think anything anyone says will sway you from what you believe God told you,, in the last days even the elect will be led astray.

  385. astudent says:

    Dodge and Drake,

    First, let us not get all up tight about who is right and who is wrong.

    This is not a matter of salvation. It is only a matter of wisdom.

    If God meant 600 and 66 and He said it, then where is the mystery? There has to be more to what he said or it would not require wisdom and insight in order to calculate anything, as there would be nothing to calculate.

    If you look at the number as Drake does and it makes worldly sense to me, there is no spiritual insight or understanding.

    The Bible is a spiritual book about spiritual things and when one understands a bit more about what it says, then that opens even more understanding. It is like a jig saw puzzle. You put some pieces together and then find where they fit the rest of the picture.

    Drakes way of viewing the number of man can even be applied to Satan (the same number) as Satan was an animal (Gen 3:1). However, there is nothing that can be learned about the rest of the Bible. It seems a dead end to me, even though I see the connection.

    If you see the number of man as I do, then you can understand Jude 1:14. You can see that Enoch was the first man that God took, so he was the first in the line of God. Then you can see that Enoch the first son of Cain was the first in the line of man. Then you can understand Geneses 6:4 where it says, “the sons of God went to the daughters of men and children by them”. And we learn more and more.

    Dodge, now the only thing that you have really said is that I am wrong: and of course, you are right. So gather your wisdom and insight and tell me what you calculate as the number of the beast.

  386. astudent says:

    Jun,

    You did not say whom you were directing your comment to, so I assumed it was to me, as it does fit me somewhat.

    I state what I believe what the spirit that lives in me has revealed to me. I cannot lie and say it came from my abilities to understand. I am no mental heavyweight.

    Having said that I could be wrong about many things. Perhaps I did not listen closely enough or perhaps I did not understand the Spirit when He was trying to explain something to me.

    I go back and read some of the posts that I have written and I know that it is not me.

    As for talking down to others, I find it frustrating when someone only says that I am wrong without stating their own understanding. If their opinion is that I am wrong, I can live with that, but just to keep saying it and not really try to find truth will eventually cause me to talk down to them.

    I might add that if their understanding doesn’t come from the Bible they are on the wrong web site. This is a Bible study.

    I do appreciate your warning, as everyone should be chastised so they might rethink their actions. However, I guess you can see that I do not believe that I am at fault, even though you are correct to say that I talk down to some that comment.

    Please try to see it from my point of view.

    Thanks, even if you do not agree with me.

  387. steve says:

    I believe the mark will be 666 and i believe people will take the mark because in the end time major majority of people arent gonna believe in the christian bible therefore they will take the mark because most want even think about the bible scripture pertaining to a mark of the beast. Bible say in the last days that man wouldntvtake sound doctrine and they would heap up minister to teach them geneogy etc.

    doctrine and that they would heap up p

  388. astudent says:

    steve,

    I believe that the examples in the Bible are there to “first” teach us about spiritual things, but they are also real. By that I mean if they speak of things of the future, or the past, they will happen, or have really happened. As an example I believe a real donkey spoke to Balaam and a real fish swallowed Jonah. So there will be a real mark that any man must have in order to buy or sell and in this world if you cannot buy or sell, then you will have no food or shelter and you will die of starvation and exposure.

    Now, I cannot speak as one whom God has revealed this to me, because I may have some of my own ideas mixed into what the Bible says, but nevertheless this might be right.

    Looking at Revelation chapter 13, the dragon is Satan (I am pretty sure of that). The first beast, the one that comes out of the sea (the sea I think represents mankind) could be Islam. Islam seemed to be defeated by the Christians at one time, but the fatal wound has been healed.

    The whole world will follow Islam. One reason that it will is, if you do not, they will kill you. That is a pretty strong reason, especially if you do not believe in God, or any god. There are many right now that do not believe Allah is God, but they say he is God because they want to live.

    Everything that is said about the first beast can be said about Islam. Islam says God has no Son and that slanders God’s name. It calls God a liar, because God said Jesus is His son.

    The second beast could be money. It is money that has the power to make people worship Islam. That is the power of the mark that everyone must have in order to buy and sell.

    Men choose men to lead them, instead of God. The leaders will, at some point, demand that a chip be implanted into their subject’s bodies and it will keep a record of their wealth. Those who employ them will report their wages to the government and the government will credit their account accordingly and when they need to buy something the chip will be scanned and amount credited to the vendor.

    You will have to confess that Allah is God in order to receive a chip. No chip, no wealth and no wealth, no food or clothing. All of mankind will be slaves to Satan. After all, that is his goal.

    You are right when you say that in the last days man will not take sound doctrine, but I think most have an understanding that 666 is the mark of Satan. The world makes horror movies and TV programs where 666 is used for what it really means and the world laughs at it and does not understand anything about it, except that it is evil. The poor fools go to their death laughing, with their hands covering their eyes and that is a terrible thing.

    Would you like to view the number spiritually, but slightly different? The number of Satan is six. He is not complete, or a seven and he does not want to be complete. He wants nothing to do with God.

    The first beast’s number is also a six. Islam is a religion that was formed to oppose the true God. The goal of Islam is to kill all of God’s people: as if that were possible. Islam has no Savior and therefore is not a seven: not complete.

    Money is the god of man, not the God of the universe. It is also a six as it cannot deliver on the promises that it promises. It is also not a seven or the number of completion.

    So you have Satan (6), the first beast (6), and money (6). Which is 666. If you were to add them together with simple math the sum would be 18. However they are symbols, not just numbers and the only way to add symbols is just to say them one after another. 666

    If you had six apples, six oranges, and six pears you might say to someone that you have eighteen fruits, but if you wanted that person to really understand what you had, you would have to say six apples, six oranges, and six pears. 666

  389. On says:

    Wow,

    a student. Are you still monitoring this page. Over the past 3 days or so I’ve read almost all comments in this blog. Each dialogue playing out like a reality tv show(heroes, “villains,” and all) . Pretty interesting, and probably enough to write a theological dissertation, or at least a short documentary summarizing the 3 years or so? Whatever happened to the faith warriors who stood with you like “Baisidi..?” I think that was the correct spelling.
    Obviously a lot of steam was lost in discussion with antagonist, and I was really surprised to see that other believers were really silent during this discourse as if out of fear. Not sure if I would have handle this situation any different, but if it were possible for your or any other student/scholar to prove the existence of our creater using a logical reasoning process there would be no need to “believe” in or have faith in anything or in anyone. One would only need to be mature enough to understand basic logic, if this then that. There would also be no freedom of choice, at least not any more than the freedom to dispute common sense which is relative. Therefore, there must remain avoid in our natural (logical) reasoning process that can only be filled by faith: now faith is the substance (our tangible proof) of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen (what we can not explain with reasoning and logic).
    Of course hindsight is 20/20, but want I would like to discuss is the reason that we do not here of exceptionally strong believers today with outward demonstrations of power. I think of the tag team Elijah and Elisha, Shammah and the other “mighty men of David.”. Where are the Sons of God, and why don’t we here about them?

  390. astudent says:

    On,

    Yes, I’m still here and still learning.

    As for anyone that might agree or attempt to help, I probably made them mad at some point, or they believe that I do not see anything as they do. I am like a bull in a china closet most of the time.

    I think it is better, most of the time, if we do not gang up on others and that is what it would seem like if everyone commented. That said I hope everyone that has something to say, does so.

    I do believe that God is proved by logic. However, I have found that those who claim to be logical, when God is the subject, are not.

    I think that God does not give men supernatural powers in this time, because it would take the glory from Jesus and place it on the man that could heal the physically sick, or raise the dead, or any other work that he could do.

    As for the mighty men of David, have you realized that they were called mighty men because they could and did kill many? We view them as heroes, but I don’t think God does.

    We, who are true Christians, are the sons of God: and the daughters of God.

  391. On says:

    WidE is the path that leads to destruction, and narrow is the gate… If logic (our natural mental ability to reason) was enough, don’t you think that it would be the other way around. Assuming that more people are able to grasp logic than those who are not?

    If an adult has a unique skill set or ability such as a blacksmith, or more modern a lawyer or doctor, and one day their children while growing up (maturing) have watched, witnessed, and asked enough questions (I.e. mom or dad how did you do that? Or in the case of the disciples, ‘why weren’t we able to drive that demon out?’ [answer: 'this one only comes out through fasting and prayer']) I would that parent would be very pleased (glorified) to have that child do what the mother or father is able to, and even more so if the child (Sons/Daughters of God) is able to do “even greater works than these.”.

    Bare in mind that if a son on earth asked his father for a fish, though ‘he be evil’ will not give the son a snake, but will instead give him what he asked. How much more how Father in heaven?
    I apologize for speaking in parables, but you are well studied, let me know if you need references. As a side note, do you recall that hanker chiefs and other rags that had been in contact with the apostle Paul were used to heal the sick?
    This may be a difficult subject to address in this age of trickery and even the subject of this page. However, just as surely as Jesus was the first born among many, we, the Sons/Daughters of God are His representatives on Earth. The difference between us a children of God versus children of a blacksmith is Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” Therefore, it would not be us performing any great work, rather it would be Christ in us(all glory from start to finish is His). Galatians 2:20 continues, “The life I live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

  392. astudent says:

    On,

    I did not say that Logic was enough. I merely said that God is proven by logic. The problem is that most people do not want to believe in God and I have found that desire often trumps logic.

    I seem to have developed a different way of thinking. When I discover something, I do not take it as complete truth. Instead of starting from the point that I gained some understanding and forging ahead, I start from that point and go backward. As I Go back, instead of forward, I reach the basics of understanding and then I can go forward.

    What I am leading up to, or rather back to, is everything that exists is formed out of energy (E=MC²). That is the very basics of everything that exists in the universe. Energy is only a force that acts on matter: which is only energy that is locked into a matrix! God made everything out of nothing. That is logical, but those who do not want to admit truth will not accept logic.

    I think that the disciples could not drive out the demons (Mark 9:18-29) because they tried to do it by their own power. Prayer is our side of the conversation between God and us. They should have asked God to drive out the demons. Even Jesus said that he drove out demons by the finger of God, not by his own power.

    I have to ask myself what are “greater works”? Healing the physically sick is not a greater work, as the sick do not stay well. Even Lazarus died again. The Pharisees seen to that.

    Perhaps leading more people to salvation would be greater works than Jesus, if one would lead more people to Jesus than Jesus did while he was on this earth. That is a question that I have not thought about, so God has not given me a clear answer. He might choose not to, so I am not claiming that I am sure He will.

    Having said all of this, I do agree that it would be Christ in us that would perform any great work and he does still perform great works. I just do not think the world would give him or God credit for great works and therefore it seems to me that great works are few and far between and should be.

    It is God that knows everything: not us. I have pictured myself as living in the 1920′s and having the ability to heal the sick. A young man, who is sick and dying, is brought to me and I heal him. Later I find out that his name is Adolph Hitler. You see that sometimes we should just accept the fact that we are children and not yet adults. Perhaps we may never be adults, but that is all right with me.

    I am not really disagreeing with you: just sharing my thoughts.

  393. Enoch says:

    This is a great discussion.. It is my opinion that all of you are wise!

    Here’s my 2 cents.
    .
    I agree with the original writer… the mark of the beast is “stigma, stigma, stigma vs. Chi Xi Stigma..

    The word stigma alone implies mark, hence yielding the word stigmata.

    The bible says that gifts are given without repentence. I say this because Nostradamus and his vision of 3 drops of blood coming from the mouth of the serpent may be correct (for the record, I don’t know if he was a beliver or not). He interprets this vision as 3 men(6) who will war against the people of Yahuah.. AKA The anti Christ.. With today’s astro projection, MKULTRA.. and who knows what other kind technology, we could be looking at 1 spirit working through 3 men (man6, man6, man6).. Some imply that this was Nepoleon, Hitler and ? .. I think that, as everything else in the bible, they were forerunners but they weren’t the final… In fact, I believe that they were “decoys” and tests.. If the anti christ is indeed 3 “men”, then they woud be so smooth and subtle, that they would fool the very elect of Yah, if it were so..

    On another note (sort of) .. I was recently reminded that the true name of the Father in heaven and the name of his son..is not Greek, English, Latin or Yiddish.. They are Hebrew names.
    Names aren’t to be translated, but transliterated. The reason why I think that this is important is because in the original Hebrew, a name(s) testifies of the person’s purpose via each letter and hollistically. Let’s use the name of the heavenly Father for an example: Yod = Y Hey = H Vav = OO (not W) Hey – AH (according to ancient Hebrew, before vowel points. Hey at the end of a name = AH… as in Elisha, Yahuda {Judah}.. so-on-and-so-forth).. Yod- Right Hand of the Father; Hey- Grace; Vav- Spike or Nail; Hey- Grace again. There are deeper meanings to the Hebrew letters, but this is just the basics.. I believe that there is true power in the sounds that comes from the name of the Father and Son.. This is why, I believe, that the true names were removed from the old testiment over 5000 times (Jeremiah 23: 27). It also explains why the Greeks did not want belivers to know the true name of the messiah. According Celsus, (early 2nd century writer) early belivers believed that there was power in the true name of the messiah (and only the true name)

    “…. pronounce it improperly, they say, and it is ineffective. Greek and Latin will not do; it must be said in a barbarian tongue to work.” Celsus on the True Doctrine

    I say all of that to say, I respect the humility of the original writer. I also appreciate the conversation from others…… We are all learning.

    Lastly..E=MC² has been proven wrong.. I say this not as a “smug” swipe at my friend’s comment above.. I say this because I truly belive that Yahuah is revealing a more excellent way. And we all are on the right track by discussing this subject. The question becomes, once we know the more excellent way, will we be like Apollos when Pricilla and Aquilla addressed him? Or, will we hold-fast to vain traditions?

    I love you all and think that you are wonderful!

    Thanks for the blog!

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/the-book-of-enoch/id325246352

  394. astudent says:

    Enoch,

    Well, Nostradamus’s writings are not included in the Bible, so I do not put much faith in them. I am quite the purest when it comes to God’s Word.

    You say that you believe that the true names of God have been removed from the Bible, but I do not think God would allow His Word to be changed. Pro 22:12 (NIV) The eyes of the LORD keep watch over knowledge, but he frustrates the words of the unfaithful. Though people sometime try and even have printed such attempts, the Bible prevails.

    The name Jesus means, “God is salvation” when it is translated into my language (American, which is slightly different than English. I say that because the difference has caused me problems in the past). When I pray in the name of Jesus, I am saying that it is God that saves. I agree that there is power in the name of Jesus and it is the power of God. I know what I pray, but if the words were transliterated how would I understand?

    That is not to say that you are wrong, only that I see it differently.

    However, you are wrong when you say, “E=MC² has been proven wrong”.

    In 2011, the OPERA experiment mistakenly reported neutrinos appearing to travel faster than light.
    OPERA scientists announced the results of the experiment in September 2011 with the stated intent of promoting further inquiry and debate. Later the team reported two flaws in their equipment set-up that had caused errors far outside of their original confidence interval: a fiber optic cable attached improperly, which caused the apparently faster-than-light measurements, and a clock oscillator ticking too fast.[3] The errors were first confirmed by OPERA after a ScienceInsider report;[4] accounting for these two sources of error eliminated the faster-than-light results.[5]
    In March 2012, the collocated ICARUS experiment reported neutrino velocities consistent with the speed of light in the same short-pulse beam OPERA had measured in November 2011. ICARUS used a partly different timing system from OPERA and measured seven different neutrinos.[6] In addition, the Gran Sasso experiments BOREXINO, ICARUS, LVD and OPERA all measured neutrino velocity with a short-pulsed beam in May, and obtained agreement with the speed of light.[7]
    On June 8, 2012 CERN research director Sergio Bertolucci declared on behalf of the four Gran Sasso teams, including OPERA, that the speed of neutrinos is consistent with that of light. The press release, made from the 25th International Conference on Neutrino Physics and Astrophysics in Kyoto, states that the original OPERA results were wrong, due to equipment failures.[8]
    On July 12, 2012 OPERA updated their paper by including the new sources of errors in their calculations. They found agreement of neutrino speed with the speed of light.
    “wikipedia.org”

    Those who were in charge of the OPERA experiment of 2011 have resigned.

    Having said all of this I am certainly glad that we are all learning and continue to do so.

  395. ken jones says:

    666 is the number of man becuase man is carbon based. In the carbon atom, there are 6 netrons, 6 protons and 6 electrons.

  396. astudent says:

    ken jones,

    If you check the comments, you will see that Drake has already submitted your idea.

    I somewhat agree with it.

    Would you read the exchange between Drake and me, so that I will not have to repeat myself?

    A clue to help find them is the dates of the comments. Drake’s first comment was on January 2, 2010 and I think his last was April 10.

    If you have any comment after you have read our exchange, please feel free to do so, as it will be appreciated.

    Thanks

  397. harl says:

    a curve ball.

    what if the number of a man is a digit. the earliest original numbers used by man was a digit, hand, cubit.

    666 could be .666 (an infinite number} or 2/3 …being devoid of the HOLY SPIRIT. with which makes you whole or one with God.

    the number of the beast is digital {the converting of real world information to binary numeric form} we have recently converted almost all communication from analog to digital with digital more easily controlled or able to manipulate.

    the mark of the beast would also be digital like a chip or implant which is already being done and common. {control}

    “who is like the beast and able to make war with him” maybe because it is a non living being. a digital droid or system devoid of the Holy Spirit. not able to be killed by man

    “he was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast”
    images of which there are many and connect the world with one common denominator. one world order the world wide web.

    who is able to make war with him? we are here! it is now!

    of course i do not really believe any of this. nor do i believe that this conversation is being added to my profile.

    one more thought…. “media” is the plural of medium

    kinda out there

  398. astudent says:

    harl,

    I’ll take a swing at your curve ball.

    That is funny. I mean your understanding that the earliest numbers used by man were digits! I had not thought about it. As a matter of fact, “hands” are still used to measure horses!

    I would not have wanted to be a very early man that claimed .666 was an infinite number, because someone would inevitably whip out his knife and demonstrate 2/3 of a digit to and on me. Ha ha

    The number of the beast cannot be changed it is a number, not analog.

    Your mention of “who is like the beast and able to make war against him” made me think. If we have the same number, and we do (Rev 13:18), then we are like the beast and able to make war against him!

    It matters not if you believe any of this, it only matters that you believe God.

    You can be sure that this conversation is being added to your profile. God adds every little thing to your profile: good or bad. He even knows the intent of our actions and adds that also.

    To return your favor, one more thought for you, “medium” is singular for media.

    come on in

  399. dd says:

    i heard somewhere that 666 is actually 999.. so the number is 9. the number of man is his ss#. there are 9 number in your ss#, this number has not been around since the begining, actually only since 1930′s due the great depression as some sense of security to the american people. try to think of something you can do without a ss#…

  400. astudent says:

    dd,

    Now that is funny. The Bible says 666 is the number. The only way it could seem to say 999, is if you turn it up side down. HA ha!

    Stop listening to men. Turn the Bible upright and read it for yourself.

    If the number of man is his ss#, then what is the number of all the rest of the men in the world that are not US citizens?

  401. On says:

    Is creating something out of nothing really logical?

    Imagine if health care, police, fireman, or rescue workers determined whether or not to do their jobs by thinking through the scenario that you posed referencing a little boy in the 1920′s.

    Matthew 10:7-8

  402. astudent says:

    On,

    Why yes, that is logical. The universe exists, so it had to be created. Those that claim it was created by a big bang do not venture a guess as to how everything in the universe was created before the bang. At some point everything that is, had to be created and it had to be created from something other than the universe. At one time it was not logical to think a man could fly, but then we learned more about many things and now we think it quite logical.

    Now one could hold to the theory that everything always existed, but everything is made of energy (E=MC²) and energy is really nothing. It really doesn’t matter if you think it is not logical: that is the way it is.

    People seem to think that doctors, police, firemen, and rescue workers exists to just help everyone, but the truth is, they work for money. If they were not paid, they would find other employment. They would have too. There are volunteer firemen and they have other means of employment, so I am not speaking of them.

    My example was to show others that we do not know the future and not to say that we should not try to help others. One should pray that God’s will be done, but if I could heal with prayer, how would I know if it is God’s will?

    Mat 10:7&8 (NIV) As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

    Who is really sick, the Christian that is on his dying bed, or the healthy man that doesn’t know God? Physical health is not as important as Spiritual health. The dead are raised out of the water of baptism. Freely I have received, freely I give.

    It was not possible to cleanse those that have the physical disease of leprosy. It seems to me that the verses are speaking of spiritual health, not physical health.

  403. The Messenger says:

    I have pondered over this for sometime now myself and with respect to everyone who is trying to decipher who the beast/antichrist is, the worldseems to be forgetting one thing….Lucifer is the master of deception!! In the same way we have accepted many things in to our lives in the name of ‘convenient’, or have gotten into or have bought the latest ‘trend’, or must have, Satan is going to slip in to our everyday lives just the same without us even noticing. Who now-a-days does not own a computer or at least two phones, owns a credit or debit card etc. Before you can say ‘Rapture!’ most of us would have unknowingly ‘received’ the ‘mark’ without even knowing it. People of the living God, pray for dicearnment and wisdom. The bible talks about the number of man, I urge you to study the human form of ‘Sacred Geometry’. We do not go around with the number 666 written on us neither will Satan. The Beast and Man both own the same number (Rev 13:18). How will you know the difference? Yes there will be tell tale signs but so far looking back in history, every year some leader is labelled as the ‘Beast’. Now it’s Obama’s turn. They have equated his name to the number 666 (look it up on Youtube). Instead of looking up we are all now looking down, staring at our laptops or the latest hand held gadget. Whatever everyone else is doing, I urge you to do the opposite.

    Shalom

  404. astudent says:

    The Messenger,

    I agree with you when you say, “Lucifer is the master of deception”. You are correct when you point out some of the ways that he has been successful.

    The only part of your comment that I disagree with is that we should “study the human form of ‘Sacred Geometry’”. God is found in Scripture, not in a study of geometric designs.

    Suppose Lucifer could trick us into seeking God in ‘Sacred Geometry’ instead of the Bible. But of course, he would not do that. That would be deceptive, wouldn’t it?

    My laptop has the Word of God in it and I do a lot of staring at it, so gadgets can be used for good as well as bad. Sometimes we only look at the object and see the evil, but it is man that sins, not the object. Laptops, or any object, can be used for good or bad. A gun can be used to protect as well as to attack. It is only an inert object with out a user.

  405. The Messenger says:

    Hello my friend,

    Thanks for your response. However I must point out that I did not intend for you to ever think that I was implying that anyone should read ‘Sacred Geomentry’ as a replacement of the true word and direction of the bible, simply to understand from a different point of view on how the nature of man i.e. DNA etc is made up (amongst other profound things). In other words, we read about many icons, places, events in the bible but it does not concentrate on the full aspect of that thing e.g. we know that there are 10 Commandments one of which is keeping the Sabbath, however to know what elements are considered the true criterion relevant to Shabbat one would probably have to study Jewish Laws – Judaism. Another example off the top of my head would be King Xerxes I of Persia, the bible give us enough of what we need to know about him but if one wised to know more than they would have to venture into one of the many the history books written on the subject. I would also like to add that it not my MO to compare against the bible books that I have read. I read the bible to veiyfyand sometimes authenticate the books that I do read. (Hope that make sense).

    As I said (and too strongly agree with your thinking re 666), Lucifer is the master of mis-direction, and while everybody is busy concentrating on the Bar code and the RFID chip and other ‘too obvious’ technology, I strongly believe we, as always , as sheep, are been misguided whilst the true ‘mark’ is being filtered into our everyday lives and most of us do not even know it.’Must have the Mark’ [whatever it is\turns out to be]. Im’, struggling to not go out and get a SMART TV for various moral reasons, it’s the latest ‘must have’ but ‘vanity vanity all is ‘ and I too am guilty.

    I have nothing against technology, [ex-IT tutor] and agree there’s good and bad in everything, but I’ve now stopped myself from rushing out to buy the latest gadget. Must have’s are now just that – MUST HAVE – one very soon everyone will be saying they too

    In Genesis 4 there is also the ‘mark’ that G-d placed on Cain. What was this mark? In Revelations the ‘chosen’ ones also received a ‘mark’! We could argue many things and no doubt elite scholars may have their own take on what the mark of the beast or that of G-d maybe.

    Keep on praying for discernment my friend, we are but the very few ‘voice crying in the wilderness’.

    Stay blesssed.

    Messenger

  406. The Messenger says:

    …whilst we’re on this ’666′ thing..another thing that came to mind is this…on a clock you can have 1.11 [eleven minutes passed one] , 2.22, 3.33 etc to 5.55 [five fifty five]. but you’ll never get 6.66!! hmmm.

  407. The Messenger says:

    [PARAGRAPH CORRECTION]

    ‘’We are a generation of ‘Must have’s’. I myself am struggling not to go out and get a SMART TV for various moral reasons. It’s the latest ‘must have’ but ‘vanity is vanity all is vanity ‘ and I too am guilty.

  408. astudent says:

    The Messenger,

    I did not think that you were suggesting there is a substitute for God’s word, but others read this blog and I merely wanted to be sure that no one would think that we were implying, in any way that there was. I apologize if I sounded as if I thought you were.

    I do not think that we have to study Jewish Law to understand the Sabbath. It is stated that the Sabbath is a day of rest. It is, or will be, the day that God rests and that day is yet to come. The Bible says that God made everything, but everything is yet to be made. There are humans being born every minute of every day. Jesus said that his Father is always working (John 5:17) so He has not reached the Sabbath (Yet). That comes from Scripture, not from Jewish Law. I think that Jewish Law would only confuse understanding.

    I see the Bible as a Book of and about spiritual things. God uses the examples of this earth to teach us, because we have not seen any of the spiritual world. I am beginning to understand that learning anything about this world is only a pleasant way to pass the time that we spend here. After all, it will all pass away, so what, other than pleasure, is knowledge of this world worth?

    Actually, I have found that much of the so-called basics that I was taught about science is not correct! I find that I must question everything. Just for fun, take perpetual motion. I have always been told that it was not possible. However, the universe cannot exist without it. Every atom is a perpetual motion machine!

    I too have little interest in the latest gadget. If one looks past the hype the only thing left is the money and that is because that is the driving force for new gadgets.

    I found your clock parable or example hilarious. I had not thought of time that way. I appreciate the humor, but we already have the mark, as we are men (human, I am not trying to leave women out).

    We share the basic rule and that is to compare everything to the Word of God, in order to discern truth.

    As for “Smart TVs”, I wonder how smart it is to watch TV. I do, but many times I ask myself (old people can get away with asking themselves) WHY am I watching this?

    With a smart TV, one can always look for something more worthwhile, but I have found that the only benefit of looking for something more worthwhile is a strong right thumb. (Now everyone knows a little more about me (I am right handed)).

  409. The Messenger says:

    My friend, you have taken everything I have said soooo out of conext, I fear through narrow mindedness….for example there are over 600 thing to follow pertaining to the rules of Sabbath, these are not found in the bible…however, as you are the author of this topic and it would appear, hell bent on dominating the argument. Let’s leave it at that.

  410. astudent says:

    The Messenger,

    Sorry, I didn’t understand that we were having an argument. I thought that we were just exchanging comments. No winners or losers.

    Why does everyone seem to think comments should be arguments? How could anyone learn anything from an argument? No one even tries as they are to busy trying to defend themselves.

    I just said what I thought from a different perspective. After all, we are different and therefore have different perspectives. I am narrow-minded and of course, you are not.

    I really am narrow-minded when it comes to Scripture. If it is not in the Bible then it comes from man, not God. So I would not consider the 600 things to follow pertaining to the Sabbath, that are not in the Bible, wroth much consideration.

    That is just how I view things. Why would, how I view things differently, anger you?

  411. terry wentzell says:

    I think there might be other meanings. The end of the age as the bible teaches. , 12 12 12 according to the mayan calender. A new era or age of spiritual transformation, in their system of belief. Could be the same date as God had intended in his word. Divided by 2 it becomes 6 6 6. Also could be like the death rate of mankind on earth. We are at 66600 or so every day. In old times the. Many things were measured in units of 100. Something to ponder but I believe we are definitely in the end times .

  412. terry wentzell says:

    The kingdom of heaven is the reign of the heavens over the earth, the end of the reign of man. So in myopinion it is significant to the transfer of power from man over to God. He must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet. And in daniel it mentions that he must reign until the power of the holy peopl has been shattered. Like the self or ordained prophets, apostles, faith healers has returned all their gifts to jesus or god, in submission and obedience which begins a new reign of heaven over the earth. 666 could be significant in many ways that only Jesus would know :)

  413. astudent says:

    terry wentzell,

    I do not see much in the Mayan calendar that parallels the Bible. 12 12 12 came and went, so it did not agree with God. However, it does seem odd that the Mayans knew that there would be a time of the end and that it would happen close to now! I do agree that we are very close to the end of time.

    You have raised some questions in my mind. I thank you, because that is the main reason that I write this blog.

    You mentioned the reign of man over this earth and I agree that we are allowed some power to reign and that is why sin is so prevalent, and getting even more so. However, I do not think that we have all of the power. God lets us rule by not stopping sin, but He does say that He appoints the authorities, so we are not totally (Thank God) in charge.

    Then I considered 1Cor 15:25 (NIV) “For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” This seems just slightly wrong to me, as Jesus is not putting any of his enemies under his feet.

    The ISV says, “For he must rule until God puts all his enemies under his feet.” That sounds, to me, like a more accurate translation. Jesus will put all of his enemies under his feet, but not until God tells him that it is time.

    I would not hold my breath, waiting for all of the prophets, and faith healers to submit themselves to Jesus. They seem to have submitted themselves to money, instead of Jesus.

    As you can see, I come across as hard to get along with, but I am not trying to make friends as much as I am trying to understand the Bible. So, try not to be offended when I rant a little here.

    I really do not like to hear anyone say that we cannot know something. There are a few things that we are told that we cannot know, but they are specified. That says to me that there is very little that we cannot know. When we say that we cannot know something, then we stop trying and the prophecy is self-fulfilled.

    I am always giving advice that is not asked for, so in keeping with my personality, let me give you some. Never say that only Jesus or God can know something, unless Scripture agrees. You will be surprised what God will reveal when you believe that He will.

    I am only speaking about spiritual things. I do not think that God is going to reveal nuclear engineering to anyone, just because they ask, but nuclear engineering is only about this world and this world will pass away.

    Thanks for the comment. Comments make me think about Scripture, but not usually, about what the commenter presents. That makes others think that I am just being disagreeable, but I am not trying to be either disagreeable or agreeable. Just Trying to learn and share.

  414. Well, the best description of the Mayan end of the age and the next one was translated to be about a spiritual transformation. The Bible also implies this as well. The Kingdom of Heaven is here on earth, but it is a new heaven and a new earth for the former things have passed away… Was he referring to the transforming of the third heaven spiritual realm??? 2 Corinthians 12. It is clear that all power that has been dispelled out from heaven to individuals on earth must be removed or returned to its appropriate heavenly authority… Christ, Satan or God, and a new set of spiritual laws established. Daniel 12, I think, as well as parts of revelation. All the Wicked souls, living included will be cast into the outer darkness ( Matthew as well as revelation) It will be a dwelling place for demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird. It is referred to as a soul prison of evil, a hell for the living, while the wicked people will be imprisoned in it, they will be tormented until they are dead and then go on to hell after the flesh dies. The just (us) our souls will be locked in our bodies and free from torment and demonic attacks and influence and we will go on to inherit the earth and the wicked will be killed off slowly ( death by natural causes, murdered, suicide, plagues, illness, diseases, etc). So the remnant left will be based of Muslims ( God’s People too), Christians, and Atheists. If God wanted to preserve the Atheist portion as well as the lifestyle and mandate of Christians and other faith denominations (remember the tower of Babel… God is in support of diversity) the that would be a great way to establish his kingdom on earth without destroying the premise of faith by providing absolute proof. Something to think about :) God Bless

  415. astudent says:

    Terry Wentzell,

    I suppose that you could say that there will be a spiritual transformation at the end of this age: depending on what your definition of a spiritual transformation is.

    I agree with you and Scripture that the kingdom of Heaven will be here on the earth. I do not know if it is the third Heaven spoken of in 2 Corinthians, but verse 4 does say that it was paradise, so it probably is.

    I do not think that Satan will have any power at all after time ends. There will be no evil in paradise, because we will live by the law. If everyone would only do to others, as they want others to do to them then there will be no evil: so I do not see any need for new spiritual laws. The laws that God has given us are perfect and you cannot have something more perfect, than perfect.

    Yes, I agree that all the wicked souls will be cast out of Heaven. After all, that is what they wanted. They did not want to acknowledge God, so God will grant their wish. At that time, they will realize that they have always enjoyed everything that God made and the terrifying reality is they cannot make a universe or anything. They will spend eternity away from God with nothing to do but to think about what they could have had. God will not torment them, they will torment themselves. They will never die, if your definition of death is a physical death. They will always know who they are and where they are and that they did not have to be there.

    Muslims are not the people of the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has a son, but the god of the Koran has no son. The two cannot both be the same God and there is only one God. The goal of Islam is to conquer the world so they can destroy all of the Jewish people and then all of the Christians. It should be apparent that they are well on their way to success.

    I have to say again that God will only give the atheists, or anyone that worships a different god, just want they wanted. What could be more fair? God is not into diversity. He is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14). Put your self in God’s shoes and think like Him. He made the universe and everything in it, that includes everyone in it, and all He asked is that we appreciate Him, honor Him, thank Him, and learn to love Him. He even demonstrated, through Jesus, that if it were possible for God to die, He would die for us.

    God is not interested in just faith. Only faith in Him. Personally, I agree with everything He says and does. I just wish I were better at demonstrating His love. If I were, I would not be so hard on atheists: would I?

  416. Atheists :)…. I was one before I found my faith and submitted my life to Jesus Christ :) lol. As for God’s people being just Christians, then what and who is the old testament about? Daniel was in fact a practising Muslim… remember after the decree, praying through an open window facing the east wearing a Turban. Same as Isaiah.

    If there were no Atheists, then we would not have a job, evangelizing the world, so yes, God does love all the people of the world.
    AS for the end times, there will be a separation of the souls of the wicked from ours, a great gulf fixed, etc. We are called to be separate and come out from among them and God will dwell in and among us and we will be His people. Jesus says that a realm has been created for the wicked specifically, the Outer Darkness realm.

    Also, our Bible also says in a kind of way that we (Christians per se) will get to take over the entire world ( For the meek shall inherit the earth, as all the wicked are destroyed). I think Muslims are very similar to us in most ways, perhaps they are just a different sect of the towel of babel fiasco, which were before then, all us.

  417. astudent says:

    Terry Wentzell,

    The Old Testament is about the Law and it demonstrates the need for a Savior, which is Jesus. It predicts his coming and his death that was a substitute for ours. Not a physical death, but separation from God, which is the second death.

    Muslims did not exist in Daniel or Isaiah’s time. Daniel did not pray to Allah, but to the God of the universe.

    Where did I say that there are no atheists? Where did I even infer there were no atheists?

    I agree with your assessment of the end times, as far as it goes. I would have included God, as God will separate Himself from the wicked. That is far more important than just separating the lost from the saved.

    I think that your statement that Christians will “take over” the entire world is just a little misleading. The idea of “taking over” implies doing something by force. Actually, God will give us everything. Then everyone will live by the Law (Do to others, as you would have them do to you) so there will be no need of any forceful actions by anyone.

    You seem to think that there are no differences between Christians, atheists, or Muslims. If you are a Christian, then what are you, if there are no differences?

  418. Devin says:

    a student, i would like to corispond if you have the time. it is my goal/duty to seek enlightenment, and i was hopeing to have a good conversation with you. u seem to be progressing nicely down the path of enlightenment. i too am a student of life and god. i seek to understand all things, which is quite imposible i know, but im gonna give it a good college try so to speak.im not sure how far along i am but perhaps we could learn a thing or two from each other.i havent read everything here. short on time, but i had considerd thet man could well be the beast. emphisis on the 6 said thrice. the other bit about adding god to man bringing man closer to his ultimate goal made alot of sense. anyway please consider emailing me.
    Devin

  419. JM says:

    Hello, I am a JW and somehow stumbled upon this blog. I find it interesting that you came to the same conclusion that we believe in. Here is a excerpt from one of our publications.

    ==============

    The wild beast has a name, and this name is a number: 666. Six, as a number, is associated with Jehovah’s enemies. A Philistine man of the Rephaim was of “extraordinary size,” and his “fingers and toes were in sixes.” (1 Chronicles 20:6) King Nebuchadnezzar erected a golden image 6 cubits in breadth and 60 cubits high, to unify his political officials in one worship. When God’s servants refused to worship the image of gold, the king had them thrown into a fiery furnace. (Daniel 3:1-23) The number six falls short of seven, which stands for completeness from God’s standpoint. Therefore, a triple six represents gross imperfection.
    34 A name identifies a person. So how does this number identify the beast? John says that it “is a man’s number,” not that of a spirit person, so the name helps to confirm that the wild beast is earthly, symbolizing human government. Just as six fails to measure up to seven, so 666—six to the third degree—is a fitting name for the world’s gigantic political system that fails so miserably to measure up to God’s standard of perfection. The world’s political wild beast rules supreme under the name-number 666, while big politics, big religion, and big business keep that wild beast functioning as an oppressor of mankind and a persecutor of God’s people.
    35 What does it mean to be marked on the forehead or in the right hand with the name of the wild beast? When Jehovah gave Israel the Law, he told them: “You must apply these words of mine to your heart and your soul and bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they must serve as a frontlet band between your eyes.” (Deuteronomy 11:18) This meant that the Israelites had to keep that Law constantly before them, so that it influenced all their actions and thoughts. The 144,000 anointed ones are said to have the Father’s name and that of Jesus written on their foreheads. This identifies them as belonging to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. (Revelation 14:1) In imitation, Satan uses the demonic mark of the wild beast. Anybody engaged in everyday activities such as buying and selling is pressured to do things the way the wild beast does, as, for example, in celebrating holidays. They are expected to worship the wild beast, letting it rule their lives, so as to receive its mark.
    36 Those who refuse to accept the mark of the wild beast have had constant problems. Starting in the 1930’s, for example, they had to fight many court battles and endure violent mobbings and other persecutions. In the totalitarian countries, they were thrown into concentration camps, where many died. Since the second world war, countless young men have suffered lengthy imprisonments, some even being tortured and killed, because of their refusal to compromise their Christian neutrality. In other lands Christians are literally unable to buy or sell; some are unable to own property; others are raped, murdered, or chased from their native land. Why? Because in good conscience they refuse to buy a political party card.—John 17:16

    =================

  420. astudent says:

    Devin,

    Sorry, but I do not participate in private discussions. It is not that I do not like to, but I do not have the time or energy to do so.

    Actually, you already have what you asked for. We can have a conversation right here. It will not be private, but if no one knows who you are, then what difference is there?

    There are benefits that you do not realize. When we disagree, and we surly will, you can just stop writing without damaging any friendship that we may accrue.

    I am a student that sometimes sounds like a teacher, but that is maybe the most important thing that I must avoid. A man that believes himself to be a teacher only gets in the way of the true teacher.

    I have found that a good collage try is not what it takes to understand all things. It takes persistence, patience, and reading God’s Word, repeatedly.

    God wants us to have a conversation with Him, not with others. Our side of the conversation is when we pray to Him and His side is His Word (Scripture). You only understand what He gives you. It is not possible to ferret out understanding. We make that mistake when we think that we have anything to do with gaining knowledge, other than trying.

    Just ask God for understanding and then listen to Him and He will make His Word clear to you.

  421. astudent says:

    JM,

    You sound like that we are not brothers! I do not belong to your congregation or organization, but we are both children of God and therefore brothers.

    I have come to the same conclusions, because we have the same teacher.

    I find that your group understands correctly many things that other denominations have gotten wrong, but I see the same basic error in your denomination that I see in all of them.

    God gives man a little understanding and they begin to think they should make everyone understand just as they do. So, in their pride, or even in their desire to do good, they demand that others see everything just as they do. They choose a certain version of the Word of God and claim that it is the only true Word. That is one of the mistakes that the Catholic Church made.

    Perhaps you might better understand if I point out to you, that you did not cite the Word of God, but one of your publications when you said that you agree with me. Actually, you didn’t say that you agree with me, but that I agree with what “we believe in”.

    Your publication, though right and very good, is only what a man wrote.

    We should all learn directly from God’s Word, not from a man, and that includes me.

  422. JM says:

    I agree with you that it is absolutely necessary that each and every Christian engage in daily personal Bible study to develop their own personal relationship with our heavenly father and to gain deeper understandings that can’t be attained from any other method than prayer and reading of the scriptures. Daily we are faced with decisions for which there is no law and are a matter of conscience. The truth can’t be given to you but we do have help from those of the faith that can give us valuable assistance in finding it. A good example that was placed in the bible for our benefit is that of the Ethiopian eunuch that was approached by Philip in Acts 8:30. He accepted guidance from God through a man because he was humble enough to incline his ear. That is not to say that one should blindly accept anything told to us but we do have the ability to see if what we are told is true much like those who read this blog.

    We all are responsible to Jehovah for our own decisions and being a part of this world wide brotherhood is a choice I individually made in the spirit of 1 Corinthians 1:10 where we are counseled “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

    In 2 Timothy 3:14 he was instructed to “continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them.” In the same manner I’m sure those first century Christians could confidently say “we believe” when speaking about matters of faith.

    I can make no distinction between verbal guidance (Acts 17:2-4) and written guidance like that in the publication. As long as it agrees with it’s references in the scriptures. In Matthew 24:45-47 Jesus said “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.”(NIV). God knew that the Bible would be completed before the coming of Christ so this food would obviously not just copies of the Bible but additional spiritual direction in understanding of the scriptures.

    We know that the servant is figurative and does not represent a single person but it is one slave that is responsible for giving the food. If, after a honest examination of the scriptures one concludes that this the right path, it is not a matter of pride or self gratification that they believe other should view the truth as they do. It is actually a display of humbleness and sacrifice by following the directions that were given when compromise is so easy to doing it would give you many more supporters.

    Your deep research into the Bible is evident in the post you have made in this blog so I’m sure there are scriptures that have lead to your conclusion as well. I love lovers of God and I’m sure you are one so it has been a pleasure to correspond with you here. Thank you for your honesty in your reply and I can understand and relate to everything that you said. We each should stand for what we believe and I believe we will.

  423. astudent says:

    JM,

    You say that we must engage in Bible study, but I do not study the Bible! I have conversations with God. I tell Him about what is on my mind, at that time, and He answers me with His Word. Some might explain that as study, but it doesn’t strike me as study. I do not believe a man can study the Bible and gain understanding by his or her effort. Understanding only comes from God and He grants understanding as He sees fit.

    I know of no instance where there is no law to govern any decision. All of the law originates from two basic rules. Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV) Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
    What men call conscience is the law of God, which is written on their hearts.

    There is much written in the Word about teaching, and there are those that have yet to realize they are sinners and in need of a Savior, who need a teacher, but after they allow themselves to be baptized, they need no teacher. 1 John 2:27(NIV) As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

    That is not to say that we should not attempt to explain the understanding that God has given us, but our explanations should only be viewed as questions. If we have the perfect teacher, and we do, then all we need are the questions. It seems to come as an unwelcome fact, but there is no way to sharpen iron with iron.

    It seems to me that after many turn to God that, at some point, they forget that man is the problem and begin to view themselves (man) as the solution to the problem.

    Tell me, do you see the lesson in Acts 20?

    Acts 20:7-9 (NIV) On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.

    Two much preaching, or listening to another man, puts one to sleep spiritually. Instead of listening to our Father and becoming enthusiastic about Him and what He has to say, we become sleepy and in danger of death.

    Listening to most preachers one might get the idea that those verses were in the bible only so they can joke about preaching to long!

    Anyway, it has also been a pleasure to trade comments with you. I can see that you are genuine in your love of God and are seeking understanding, just as I am.

    If I could offer some advice (as you can see, I am going to anyway), be careful not to accept anything that anyone says (me included) as truth. Test everything with our Fathers Word, because He wants us to talk with Him. We should be listening to Him, much more than listening to men, or women for that matter.

  424. Jreac says:

    The old man Adam fell because of the deceit of sat amen. As we know, the first man Adam was created the sixth day. The new man Adam born after the likeness of Christ is resting in Christ and gets the number seven. See 1Corinthians and Genesis 1:26. The old man Adam is destined for destruction. The new man Adam received salvation through Christ Jesus. So man with the number 6 is fallen whereas the the new man with the number 7 is saved.

  425. M says:

    III is binary code for 7. :) That’s all I have to say about that.

  426. E says:

    The INCREDIBLE significance is that it is the SOLUTION to the riddle in Revelation 13:18:

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    If you look carefully at the actual text and you will note that John did not write “666 (“six hundred threescore and six”) is the mark of the beast, nor did he say “666” is the number of the beast. He specifically and purposefully wrote that the number “666 corresponded to” the “number of the beast which is the number of a man, and his number is six hundred threescore and six.” Neither did John say: “..is the number of man (as in ‘mankind’),” but he specifically wrote: “…is the number of a man,” meaning a particular man.

    That particular man to whom John was pointing those “who hath understanding,” is Solomon. “His number” corresponds to “money” as in the amount of “gold” he received in a one-year period:

    “Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold.” (I Kings 10:14)

    So the number 666 represents nothing more or less than MONEY!

    There is not a person in this world that has not ALREADY received the “mark of the beast” in his or her “right hand”—not one! It is impossible to live in this world without being affected in some way by commercialism, money, or the economic structures set up by the societies of the earth. Jewish custom taught that what one does with one’s “right hand” is a reflection of the actions one makes in his daily life. What one thinks and focuses upon, is represented by a “mark” in the “forehead.”

    The greatest portion of our waking hours are spent in pursuit of the lifestyle we have imagined in our minds for our families and ourselves. Those who have the mark, or “seal of the Father in their forehead” think of others and how their actions affect the least among us, trying in every way possible to do unto others what they would want done unto them.

    13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    We cannot buy or sell in this world unless we involve ourselves in its economies. We have idolized the almighty dollar, prostrating ourselves before it, and worshipping all it can do for us.

    It has become our God.

    The more we have, the more secure we feel, and the more we worship it. Our bank accounts, our retirement accounts, our investments, our promised pensions, and our life insurance policies give us the false sense of security that our future is provided for and secure. The “number of his name” is the accounting and value system we have established to perpetuate the “beast.” It is money. Without it, “no man might buy or sell.”

    Taken from THE book that explains ALL of Revelation in plainness free at the site below:
    Source(s):
    http://666america.com/

    Here is another perspective. God Bless you and ANYONE who seeks.

  427. astudent says:

    E,

    Thanks for the different perspective. I do agree with much of what you said. Money is an idol and a powerful one.

    However, you said, “There is not a person in this world that has not ALREADY received the “mark of the beast” in his or her “right hand”—not one!”

    And God said, “Rev 14:9-11 (NIV) A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

    If everyone has received the mark and anyone that does so is condemned, then who is left to save?

    How do you reconcile this?

  428. astudent says:

    E,

    I like your thoughts. I feel compelled to think more about them.

    I can see that you are correct when you say that we all have the number of man. And to answer my own question, ‘someone who is born again (Born of the Spirit), is no longer a 6 and that is who is left to be saved’.

    However, I am having a problem accepting that money is the mark.

    I do not believe Adam, Eve, and Cain, possessed money and yet they were human and therefore have, or have, the same number as Satan.

    If I were a betting man, I would bet Cain invented money and governments, because he could no longer make a living, or the kind of living, that he wanted.

    Anyway, your comment was indeed very good, because it caused me, and I hope many, to think about Scripture. Which is also my goal.

    Thanks

  429. Hop Sing says:

    Dear astudent, Everyone and everything has a chop all chop different. At least according to Hop Sing on Bonanza
    It is what seems to make some sense in a way. Every grain of sand, every snowflake, has a chop. In the beginning God created both heavenly realms and earthly physical realms or so it seems. And it also seems that Jesus is both the beginning and the end . The Alpha and the Omega .
    Jesus make chops all chops different? Hop Sing say all have chop, all chop different
    It comes to me lately that Genesis 1 In the beginning God created , in book 1 and then in book 66 He said I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. If you go to book 33 in Micah the second advent of Jesus is spoken about. We have spiritual Chop and physical Chop all chop different, All that has been , is or will be has a Chop all chop verrrrrry different.
    In addition as of lately I have been asking people to choose a number between one and ten , I ask them not to tell me this number but to keep it in their mind, then I ask them to multiply this number by another number and then I ask them to tell me what this number is. After I get this number I divide by three to the lowest I take this number and compare it to 1.168 . The first number is the physical, the second number is spiritual. I study chops , spiritual chops , physical chops. Those who worship God worship Him in spirit and truth.Flesh chop no like to worship God. spirit chop non regenerated chop ? regenerated spirit chop worship God, this chop have new name.too in Lambs book of life
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89 these are 12 numbers the 13th number in the sequence is 144
    A third of the heavenly host were cast out of the heavenly realm 2/4rds remain in heaven
    The mark of the beast is a number that number is the number of a man , let him that has wisdom discern what 666 is and who it is maybe the beast is tracking and the end is beginning.

  430. astudent says:

    Hop Sing,

    Perhaps a bit less of Bonanza and a lot more Bible would get your chop straightened out.

  431. @astudent – Don’t be so quick to scoff , what Hop Sing says makes a lot of sense , especially when the 144 popped up . Need I remind you of the 144,000 ? but anyway, I was going to point out, that it is the number of a Man …… Humana , and it does says that 36 months after the implementation of the LAW , Humana will chip everyone in America. Doesn’t the Bible says that those that accept the Mark , God shall cause a grievous and noisome sore to fall upon them . If you are chipped , they will use retina scan, to verify the chip in you is yours. Didn’t Jesus says if thy right eye offend thee pluck it out , if thy right hand offend thee cut it off , was he trying to tell us something brother ?

  432. astudent says:

    Buddy Russell,

    The number of man is 666, not 144, nor any other number, no matter how one creates a number. God’s Word gives the number and no man can change it.

    The LAW was given to Israel long before anyone could place a chip in someone.

    The 144,000 spoken of in the Bible were/are the first to be redeemed (Rev 14:1-5). They would be sevens (6+1) not men (Just 6).

    Yes, Jesus is trying to tell us something. “It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.” It is a parable that illustrates that there is nothing more important than going to Heaven. It is only an illustration, because cutting off you arm, or gouging out you eye will not save you. It is what is in your heart that is important.

    If you are a baptized believer, you have the Holy Spirit to teach you all things (John 14:26). Why would you pay any attention to a mere man? Even an actor that made a living pretending to be something other than what he was!

    Now that is not to say that the governments of this world will not make the people accept a chip. Islam is swiftly gaining control of the world and they have no regard for Jews and Christians. It would not surprise me if, when they have complete control, that they will demand everyone accept a chip, on the condition that they renounce the God of the Jews and Christians.