After you have read this, please consider my latest post on the Trinity. “THE TRINITY REVISITED”

The word trinity is not used in the Bible. Actually the Bible says God the Father and Jesus are one (John 10:30, 17:11&22), not two parts of three. The trinity is a concept that we humans have invented in our attempt to understand the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I have heard the trinity explained many ways. One of them using, water as an analogy. Water can have three forms and yet still be water. Water can be a liquid, or a solid, or it can be a vapor. This is a pretty good analogy. An even better one when you realize water can be all three at the same time. Picture an iceberg in the Arctic on a fogy morning. The iceberg is water, floating on water, with water hovering over both. You can see that water always exists in three forms. At any point in time, on this earth, water is always in all three forms. There is a line of separation, sometimes large, sometimes small, between water, ice, and vapor, but water always has, does, and I assume always will exists in three forms at the same time.

This becomes an even better analogy when you apply the understanding of death as separation. If death is separation, and Jesus died for us, by putting two and two together we can see that Jesus was separated from God the Father for us, just as ice is separated from water! The two (ice and water) are of the exact same composition, yet separated. The Holy Spirit, like water vapor is always hovering over both, and it also has the exact same composition.

Analogies are good ways to clarify and explain concepts that we have, but we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to teach us about what most Christians consider the three persons of God. Come on over to my side of the table and let us examine the Bible from this view.

If you want to understand the origins of Jesus, study the arm of the LORD. Isaiah 53:1(NIV) says, “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” Then the rest of the chapter goes on to reveal the arm of the LORD. God had already said a little through Isaiah, revealing the arm of the Lord. Consider Isaiah 51:5(NIV) “My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm.” Who is it that we wait in hope for? Is it not Jesus? Still don’t see it? Consider Isaiah 59:16 where the LORD says, “He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene; so his own arm worked salvation for him, and his own righteousness sustained him.”

You can see the arm of the LORD is Jesus. Once you understand this, many verses become clearer. We know that Jesus is our salvation (Acts 4:12) & yet Isaiah 59:16 says the LORD’s own arm worked salvation for Him. If both verses are true, and we know they are, because they are from the Bible, then Jesus is the arm of the LORD. If you have trouble with this concept remember Adam and Eve. Eve was made from one of Adams ribs. When you think of Eve, do you picture one of Adams ribs, or do you picture a woman? If God can create woman from the rib of a man, can’t He create Jesus from His own arm? (Now that’s a loaded question, God can do anything, and we know it.).

Look at Isa.63:11-12 (NIV), “Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses’ right hand, who divided the waters before them, to gain for himself everlasting renown,” Then compare it with 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (NIV), “For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.” Can you see that the glorious arm of power and the spiritual rock are one and the same?

Notice in Isaiah 66:14 (NIV) when the end times are described, “When you see this, your heart will rejoice and you will flourish like grass; the hand of the LORD will be made known to his servants, but his fury will be shown to his foes.” (the hand is part of the arm). Look at Isaiah 52:10 (NIV) where the end times are spoken of, “The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.”

We are told in Isaiah 40:10 that when the Sovereign Lord comes His arm will rule for Him.

Jesus died for us. Understanding that death is separation we can see that Jesus was separated from God, the Father, for us. Jesus the man died a physical death and Jesus the arm of God was separated from God for us. Separation from God is the second death and this is what we deserve. Jesus didn’t die the first death for us. We all still must face the first death. He died the second death for us. As horrible as the death Jesus died on the cross was (and it was) it was only symbolic of the second death. That death was, and is, separation from The Father. This makes Leviticus 16:7-10 clearer. Jesus is represented by both goats. One was slain (the man) and the other was separated (the Spirit) by sending it into the desert.

One only begins to understand the pain and suffering both our Heavenly Father and Jesus endured for us, when you realize God gave His own arm for us. The account of the death of Jesus in the Gospels is a description of His physical death. I wonder, how much more did it hurt Him, and His Father, to be separated from God the Father for us? Separation from God was our punishment for our sin. If Jesus bore our punishment, He had to be separated from God, because our punishment for sin is separation from God. In order to be separated He would have had to be part of God to begin with.

I am a sinner and sometimes I think there is little love in me. I have to admit when I started to study the Bible and someone would say God gave His only Son for us I would think to myself, it is not as if He gave Himself for us. I would think, if I were in His position, it would be right to give myself as a sacrifice to show my love rather than to give someone else; even a son. Of course, I could not see how God, Himself, could die for my sins and yet the universe could still exist, but I am only beginning to understand what God has done.

John 1:1&2 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.” The key word here is “was”. From my side of the table understanding that Jesus was the arm of God clarifies most, if not all, of the difficult verses about Jesus. God’s arm was always God’s arm, is God’s arm, and will always be God’s arm, whether it is separated or not. So, verses that refer to Jesus as God, refer to the arm of God. Jesus, the man, was born, or had a beginning when He became flesh, but Jesus the arm of God had no beginning. This concept also brings light to John 10:28-30. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch His sheep out of His hand and He repeats this saying in verse 29 by saying no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. The hand is the same hand, just a different way of saying it. This is clarified in verse 30 when He says, “I and the Father are one”.

Many ask the question, “Is Jesus God?” My answer would be, “Yes and no”. Yes, because He was God (John1:2), but no, because He was separated from God in my place: for my sin. That is the second death that I deserved. This is basic understanding of salvation. Of course, God’s arm will always be God’s arm even though separated, so it is not wrong to refer to Jesus as God.

That was Jesus from my side of the table. Now let me tell you how I view the Holy Spirit. To understand the Holy Spirit study the verses that include the word “mind”. Perhaps you will reach the same conclusion I have reached and that is, the Holy Spirit is the mind of God.

1 Corinthians 2:16 (NIV) says. “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.” It becomes apparent from the Bible that a Christian has the mind of God to teach him or her about spiritual things as John 14:26 (NIV) says, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

The mind of Christ is the same as the mind of God, because both are perfect. We know and believe that God is perfect, and we believe that Jesus is perfect, because He had to be in order to be able to die for our sins. We have Jesus’s mind in our mind! Notice that Jesus said only what the Father told Him. He could do this because He had the Mind of His Father. He received it when He was baptized (Mat 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, & John 1:32).

The Holy Spirit does not overpower us and keep us from sinning, but thinks to, and with, us to teach us not to sin: and to teach us about God. What we think of as a conscience, seems to me, is the Holy Spirit: the Counselor. He does not talk audibly to me, but there is no doubt He speaks to me in my mind. The Holy Spirit is the friend who sticks closer than a brother as it is said in Proverbs 18:24.

If you have trouble connecting mind with Spirit look inward. In your mind, you can be anywhere and do anything. You can be at the North Pole, freezing with your breath clearly visible, and the next second be on a tropical island, warm and feeling a balmy breeze. You can walk through walls, leap tall buildings, and be faster than a speeding bullet. We call that imagination, but that is really where we live. I don’t mean we live in our imagination, but in our mind. Imagination is spirit without power. One has the thoughts, or mind, to dream of wonderful things, but not the power to actually do them. We are chained to the body, but all our true being is in our mind. In our mind is where we love, hate, scheme, desire, etc. If I were looking for a word most of us could understand to describe “spirit” it would be mind.

If you substitute the word mind for the word spirit as you read the Bible, I think this concept will become clearer. Until you reach 1 Corinthians 14:14-15. If you are using the New International version. It says (NIV), “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.” Here the Greek word “nous” is translated “mind”, but Strong’s Concordance list the first definition of nous as “intellect” and then says i.e. (that is) mind. Now, I am not a Greek scholar, but if you examine the Greek language, you will find Greek words also have more than one meaning. The word nous can mean (according to Strong’s) the intellect, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by impl. meaning: mind, understanding. If one applies the definition of nous as intellect, not making the assumption the NIV makes (that the intellect is the mind in this case, for the mind encompasses many attributes such as emotions, which have little to do with intellect) the verses become much clearer. Clearer that is if you believe, as I do, that the Holy Spirit is the mind of God.

Let me digress for just a minute. I am not saying that I am a Greek scholar. I am saying that if one compares the New International translation to the King James, there is a difference in the way the Greek word nous is translated in 1 Cor. 14:14-15.

I have somewhat of a problem with someone who would say, or infer, “I know Greek and because of this I understand better than you”. Really! The New International Version was translated by over a hundred scholars working for more than a year. The details are more than I care to list here, however they are listed in the preface of the Book if you care to know them. I am more inclined to go along with over one hundred of the worlds best scholars than one scholar that disagrees with the hundred.

My personal choice of translations of the Bible is the New International Version, because it is written in the language of today, however I think one should use all of the translations. This is a good example of a particular version saying the same thing in a slightly different way.

Consider John 4:23&24 as you consider spirit and mind are the same. These verses say we must worship in spirit and in truth. A man may pray and worship loudly with his mouth, but a man who prays and worships in his mind does so in truth. It is not possible to fake worship to yourself, in your own mind. If you can’t even fake it to yourself, you certainly can’t fake it to God, because God knows our thoughts.

If you know anything about computers and computer games, picture this world as a virtual reality game. Our body is the interface to the game. Everything that happens in the game we feel through the body, but it is not the real world: it’s a world and a body created for this game. The real world is the spiritual world. We leave the game when we die (separation). We win the game when we admit we are sinful and realizing what God has done, and is doing for us, and we turn, accept, and acknowledge it. We loose the game if we die before we accept and acknowledge Jesus as our Lord and Savior. I say before we die, because everyone will acknowledge Jesus after the game is ended, and the game ends for each individual when that person dies.

I no longer need analogies to explain the Trinity. The Trinity, to me, consists of the Father, His arm, and His mind. All three are the Father. The Father is the greatest and includes, or included, all three, because He is, or was, all three. Verses such as John 14:28 have become clear to me. Look at Isaiah 9:6(NIV), “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Jesus is our Wonderful Counselor, because we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor., 2:16 ) to instruct us. He was, or is, The Mighty God because He was, or is, the Arm of God. He was the Everlasting Father, because He was the Father, and He is The Prince of Peace, because He allowed Himself to be sacrificed (separated from God) to bring peace between man and God.

This concept also explains those verses where Jesus said the Father knows things that the Son does not know, that the father is greater than Him, and yet He said, “I and the Father are one”(John 10:30).

Again, I say, be a Berean, test what I have said. To tell you the truth, and I certainly do not want to tell anything but the truth, I don’t know why you are reading this. This is written by a man: just a student. You have a book written by God. Why are you reading this when you could be reading “The Book”?


  1. BARBARA SANYU says:

    I think this makes sense but then again, If Jesus is the arm of God, how can he then be “the word made flesh” as in the book of John?

  2. astudent says:


    Good question. The easy answer is both terms, right arm & word, are metaphoric and mean the same thing. Though the answer is easy the explanation is not.

    Let me see if I can explain how I view the Trinity now. I am learning and therefore I am continually altering my views.

    Before the beginning referred to in the Bible there was nothing but God. No heavens, earth, sky, or universe; just God.

    It seems to me that God separated, or divided Himself, before He began to create everything. The two parts of God would be God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. I say this because of Proverbs 8:22 where it is speaking of Wisdom, which I believe is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

    Scripture says in many places that God is one, or there is only one God and this creates problems when we try to understand how there is a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    God is one and there is only one God, though these words sound the same they are two different descriptions and can mean two different things.

    When a man and woman are married the Bible says they are one, however they are not one person, but one in purpose. A perfect marriage would mean they are in agreement about everything, yet two different personalities.

    The Holy Spirit and I are one, but because I am imperfect the marriage is also imperfect. I trust God to change that when I leave this earth, but right now I am imperfect to say the least.

    Because Jesus was without sin his union with the Holy Spirit is perfect. Jesus said only what the Father told Him, so when Jesus said “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58) he was speaking as the Holy Spirit. The words came from the mouth of Jesus, but they originated in the mind of God.

    Do you see the difference between the relationship of Jesus to the Holy Spirit and my relationship? Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit, but I am only being taught by Him. My words are not the words of God, but only what I think the words of God are or what they mean. If the Holy Spirit led me I would not sin, because I would be warned before any sin was possible. As it is I am not warned before, but reminded that it was wrong after my error.

    I say this because of Isaiah 30:21 (NIV) “Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”” Right now I hear a thought in my mind, after the fact, which sounds like my own thoughts, which asks me if that was right or not. I might add that when that happens there is also an empty feeling in my stomach, because I have been wrong.

    I believe that the “Word” spoken of in John 1 is the Holy Spirit. God knows the end as well as the beginning and to God Jesus and the Holy Spirit were, and are, always one. Because we are not able to see as God does, we do not always view the two as one and that tends to confuse us.

    I hope that I have not added to confusion, but because God confused the language I probably did. It helps me to remember that what ever Jesus said it was really the Holy Spirit that was speaking. So those verses that seem to say Jesus is God are really God or the Holy Spirit saying I am.

  3. Brett says:

    “The Holy Spirit and I are one, but because I am imperfect the marriage is also imperfect. I trust God to change that when I leave this earth, but right now I am imperfect to say the least.”

    When you accept Jesus as your lord and Savior and you repent for forgivness, all your sins are made clean through the Blood of Christ and you are a re-born Christian.

    You are kinda wrong 😉 Your eternal life starts here on life after you accept Christ as your Savior. For when you die and are saved, you never see death. Hence why you are ‘saved’ after you accept Christ 😉

  4. Brett says:

    Your eternal life starts here on earth*

  5. astudent says:


    I am slightly wrong about many things and that is one of the reasons that I Blog.
    I kind of agree with you and I kinda don’t.

    I am a firm believer of free will, so I believe I still have the ability to deny Christ. We have been warned not to disown him in 2 Tim 2. If it were not possible then we would not have been warned.

    The verses are (2 Tim 2:11-13 NIV) Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

    I view my relationship with Jesus as an engagement; not yet married. If I endure and do not disown him I will be wed (The wedding banquet at the end of this time), but though the verses say that if I die with him I will also live with him, there still are conditions for me; I must endure. There are those who are afraid of what they might do that will stop reading or understanding at the end of verse 11, but God didn’t stop at 11.

    I return the comment (I hope you see the humor here) “You are kinda wrong”. Though God will not disown me and therefore my new life did start when I admitted that I was a sinner and asked God for salvation, still I must endure until God makes me perfect. After that there will be no chance that I would deny my Savior, because perfect people do not sin and that would be the unforgivable sin.

    As I understand it my sins were not made clean: they were paid for. Sins are sins and can not be made clean. The penalty for sin must be paid and that penalty is separation from God (The second death) and that is what Jesus did for anyone who would ask him to do for them. If sins could just be made clean then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die for my sins. Jesus suffered great pain and agony for me and I am grateful. If I viewed my sins as made clean I might forget what Jesus did.

    I see that you like things exactly right and so do I. It is a great attribute to want to understand perfectly and I believe everyone should want the same. Your comment has made me rethink some of the basic understandings that I hold as true. I hope it does the same for you. Though I agree with you that my life started here on earth it just isn’t that simple. Thanks for taking the time to comment and if you see error in what I said please tell me. Because I am only a man I’ll bet there is some error.

  6. creationwitness says:


    The water analogy is appropriate for understanding. I say appropriate because even though it helps us to explain God, it has still yet to be completely understood. Much like God.

    To stick my neck out a bit; Instead of denying God, atheists should further study water before going and sticking their necks out too far as it is readily admitted that science doesn’t completely understand the substance of water either. That is a bit ironic.

    I am not putting science down. I consider myself a scientist as I try and prove all things and I have proven to myself that God is who he says he is although I am left without complete understanding as well. I don’t have any proof that an atheist or evolutionist has a foot to stand on. The creation denying the Creator.

    I know that people are going to ask how I have proven God to myself. I can only say that if one believes in him, he will reveal himself. What is to say then if you don’t?

    If one is to say “But we can witness water”. I say yes, we can witness the creation and the creation is the physical evidence of the Creator.

    I don’t expect any argument will arise and an atheist is wise not to. Their argument is that there is no argument. That is correct.

    I pray this finds you well.

  7. creationwitness says:

    One additional question:

    How can anything exist without a creator?

  8. astudent says:


    I have to laugh (I’m sure part of it is because I enjoy laughter).

    You said that you consider yourself a scientist and I have also thought of myself as a scientist. So, I looked up the word “scientist” and found out, I am not a scientist!

    sci•en•tist – an expert in science, esp. one of the physical or natural sciences.

    Because I am not an expert in science, I am not a scientist. I say this because others, that apply the proper definition to the word, might think that I claim to be an expert. Actually, I wonder if there could be an expert on a subject that is continually changing!

    It seems that we are scientific – “2. occupied or concerned with science”, but not “real scientist”. Perhaps I see humor in too many places!

    I have also studied water a bit and I find that much is known about it. It is a very complicated subject, but as you say, we do not completely understand it. I might add that what we do know has come from centuries and many people and yet we still have questions!

    I am also convinced that God is who He says He is. However, there is no actual proof! I think that God does not reveal Himself, because then everyone would know and therefore believe: those who want to believe, as well as those who do not want to believe. I see this part of life as a chance to turn to God because we choose too. It must be a free choice, without any interference from anyone, or anything: even God!

    That is not to say that God does not reveal Himself. He reveals Himself through what has be made, but those who do not want to show any love for our Creator, refuse to consider anything that might help them understand.

    I also have to laugh when you say that you don’t expect any argument from an atheist. You are correct an atheist is not wise and therefore they will argue. They also do not bind themselves to truth and that makes any argument impossible to reconcile.

    Your question “How can anything exist without a creator” is too logical for an atheist to answer with truth. We know the answer, because we attempt to answer with truth, but one who has a real desire to believe there is no creator will astound you with the ability, or rather their inability, to stay focused. If you let them back themselves into a corner, they will just change the focus to another angle of the question and start from there!

    It has always been a big waste of time for me to try to convince an atheist that there is really a Creator. They have to want to know truth enough to search for the answer. If they search in truth, there is no question in my mind that they will find it.

    Yes, I am well. The truth, as applied to myself, is I am just a bit lazy and very undisciplined. I spend too much time examining the things of this world. But then, I do so because I am a very curious person, but that is not bad, because my curiosity is a big part of what led me to the Lord.

  9. creationwitness says:


    I laughed through much of that as I was writing it, so yes, feel good about it.

    I am surely not a scientist in the common definition of the word. Neither would I call myself an expert in any field as I detest the word as it is applied, so I understand your point. It may be better to call oneself a student of science to be anywhere more exact. And yes, how can one be an expert if it is continually changing? The only real conclusion is we are quite proud of the fact that we know very little 🙂

    Water is an amazing substance that we take for granted and never give back by taking care of it (love) as in all things men do and in that sense it is also appropriate as an analogy to try and explain the aspects of God and why men don’t want to acknowledge him. Acknowledgement of mistakes is a difficult thing to do even when we know we are wrong.

    Indeed. No actual proof (physical evidence) that can be shown to another beyond His creation. I find myself impossible to deny.

    An atheist becomes an atheist because they always ask for physical proof without an ounce of faith and hence receive nothing. The self is so strong (pride) it does not want to return to it’s origin and therefor it’s fear of finding the truth. It thinks it will become nothing, but doesn’t understand that is what will happen when they die without God. Living forever in an imperfect body is appealing and yet they know that it is impossible and they have all the physical science to prove it. As an atheist one can only hope for longevity without considering death can arrive at any time.

    Power just went out. Back later.

  10. creationwitness says:


    Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush last night and may have repeated you or myself not having the time to edit.

    One thing I do know is that this verse is true:

    Proverbs 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

    As a young bible student I always believed I could be rich if I just believed in God, as many of us do. Of course the thought was amiss, but I didn’t know it at the time and I was shown that it is not money that is to be desired. Spiritual wealth has no monetary price tag. This was given to me in a material lesson.

    An atheist would never apply the above verse and so can never prove God to himself. To convince an atheist of a Creator is as you have stated “a waste of time”. I wouldn’t apply this in every case, but I believe the odds are highly against it unless God wanted them to and as you also said in not so many words is that he doesn’t as scripture states with Christ explaining why he talked in parables.

    The parables are to invite curiosity and answer or confusion and disregard.

    As you know many of these people actually use scripture in argument against us without having studied it in depth. Mocking God they are laughed at. Mind you, there are enough unstudied Christians that answer them in error making most of their arguments appear valid.

    If our Creator has written a book for his children to read, it is certainly written in a way that will accomplish his pleasure. If his pleasure is studied and understood, then then bible becomes a work of art like no other. If not, then it is exactly what it is meant for and that is a big joke in the unwilling mind.

    The bible is a book that should be unbearable on one’s shoulders, but God took all of this knowledge and compacted it into one that can be carried in one’s hand, studied over and again and never cease to teach more 🙂

    An amazing work of art. Thank you for studying it with me. I pray we have many years.

  11. astudent says:


    You do not have to fret about repeating anything. It is often necessary to repeat something, in order to continue a line of thought, so the reader can make sense of it.

    Thinking about the lesion where God used money to teach you what is really important, I looked at the verse in the NIV.

    Pro 16:3 (NIV) Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.

    Even though we know that money is not important, God honored His Word and you succeeded in becoming wealthy. If He had not known that you would gain wisdom from the experience, I do not believe that He would have let you succeed.

    I believe that is one reason that God allows us to sin (make mistakes): so that we can learn. A high school teacher does not just lecture, but he or she gives the student home work, because one does not learn when another tells them something. Everyone must experience the lesson, in some way.

    I believe that you are correct. Pride does stand in the way of an atheist. However, they do have faith, but it is in themselves and not in God.

    Because I have so little success reasoning with atheist, I think that setting an example (Do to others, as you would have them do to you) is about all that I can do. If they do not want to hear about our Father, then because of the second greatest commandment, I cannot tell them about Him, as I would not want someone telling me about Allah. It only leads to unproductive argument. There are arguments that are productive, so I do not condemn arguments.

    Viewing Proverbs 16:3 from an atheist’s point of view it seems obvious that they would not apply it, because they refuse to believe in God and therefore could not apply it. That is not to say that you are wrong at all. It is just another angle to view the problem from.

    I certainly agree with you about the Bible. It is truly amazing!

    We are told, over and over, by others, that we cannot take anything with us when we leave this earth, but it is not true. Wisdom and understanding is worth more than gold or silver and we can take it with us. It is of great comfort even now, in these troubling times. We are told things will get worse and so when they do it only proves the Word of God!

    I enjoy your comments. Probably because your thoughts mirror mine! That is unusual!

  12. creationwitness says:

    Hi astudent,

    All good thoughts.

    The rational mind and science tells us the bible is nonsense. Carbon dating etc., prove the point except for the fact that God has said his timeline is not the same as ours 2 Peter 8 and making a point in prophecy that weeks can be years and such. All to confound the wise with a strong delusion. 1 Cor.1:27 and 2 Thes. 2:11-12.

    On purpose I have not quoted and not from laziness. It is the laziness of others reading this that will not allow them to be informed.

    I also invite purposeful argument. I prefer to use the word discussion though. Argument sounds argumentative. We always hear of someone or another winning or losing an argument, but we never hear of someone winning or losing a discussion 🙂

    Yes, our spirit and soul will carry our wisdom and understanding back where we belong, so we also take those with us. They are us. I doubt that will make any sense to a person locked inside their body headed for death and they would say that is just fanciful thought out of fear of death. Sorry person. I have no fear.

    When Proverbs 16:3 is first applied, the evidence will first be denied as coincidence. If practiced further the evidence becomes overwhelming proof. It is sad that man will try and reason his way out of proving Him to himself through faith that He is true. Instead they ask that he prove Himself to them. Of course they ask amiss.

    When I stopped tempting God to prove himself and instead asked for intervention, it came. But it was just coincidence the first few hundred times:) Now coincidence happens to me on a regular if not daily basis. Frequently multiple times one following the other in rapid succession. He has taken more patience than I believe I deserve. I keep this in mind when I am with others. He does not need to prove himself. He tells us how to find him. It is up to us to to choose his method of understanding, knowing that it is right (faith).

    I may have said “I used to pray for a master to come and teach me and he never arrived”. I didn’t realize that he was always with me. He did however send me a student 🙂 I would never say God does not have a sense of humor. A very understanding sense of humor.

    I hear people ask why evil exists. The answer is for us to understand it and reject or choose it. We choose it, therefor it exists. The only way to end it is for God to do exactly as he says he will. No other than man himself has kindled the fire. We can only blame ourselves and accept his judgement. He has made this very clear to everyone listening.

    I just noticed you have chosen the contempt theme for this blog:)

  13. creationwitness says:


    Some relevant scripture:

    1 Cor.1:18
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will
    bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of
    this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew
    not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save
    them that believe.
    1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
    and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore
    they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
    6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for
    the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye
    shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk
    6:17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
    6:18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is
    among them.
    6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the
    fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my
    words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

    The last verse of Jeremiah is interesting to me. One would say that God is not a loving God because of it and other similar statements. It used to confuse me until I realized that God has been very patient with us waiting until there is absolutely no hope for the evil. They will have chosen their destruction.

    It also comes to mind that an atheist chooses death over eternal life because they do not want continuance of this world either and it is a ludicrous thought that there is life eternal with God. They prefer the ridiculous believing that one day we can somehow create our own eternal life through science and technology even knowing they will die before this happens. Hence cryogenics and the pursuit of DNA reconstruction. They play God 🙂

  14. creationwitness says:

    Regarding mirrored thoughts: I believe they are our own thoughts, but because we have taken our study with a reasonable amount of understanding and without forcing those thoughts on others, we have become as God knows will happen. Become more like him. That is a bit simplistic in words.

    The true blessing is that we have much more to learn.

  15. astudent says:


    Have you noticed that there is no night in the description of the seven days in Genesis?

    I think that night is symbolic of time without God and there is no time in the days of God that can be described as time without God.

    Also, there is no standard that can be applied to the days in Genesis. The last day lasts forever, so it is longer than any of the other days. I see this as an example of the inability for anyone to understand anything, about God, that He doesn’t teach them. The fact that the days are of different lengths should be so easy to see that it should have been taught by many! However, I have never heard any man or woman point it out!

    I would add some to your description of Jer 6:19. God’s Law for our interaction with other humans is “Do to others, as you would have them do to you”. That is acting like God. If one only thinks of themselves and therefore always acts in their own interests, regardless if it hurts someone else, they are acting like an animal and Satan is an animal.

    The number of man is the same number as Satan. We are animals until we become one with God. We are then a new person, with a new number.

    Well, I certainly got off the subject: didn’t I?

  16. creationwitness says:


    Not in the least off subject. As you have pointed out there is no off subject “topic” when studying God.

    Evening, day and the Sabbath is something I thought only I was reading. That was until I started reading your thoughts. No, not ESP 🙂

    I started reading WAS EVERY THING MADE IN SIX DAYS? only today and had to print it out to make it easy to read. One thing I found was that you have known this for some time. I didn’t start studying it until about a year ago when I finally came to the conclusion that Sabbath was important to follow. At that time I thought it was on Sunday until I did the research about how our calendar was changed as it is written in our history if history is to be believed.

    7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall
    wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and
    laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times
    and the dividing of time.

    Then I was told the Sabbath starts at sunset on Friday evening as the Jewish tradition follows. Well, that didn’t seem right in my heart and so I began to study time. The word “time” needs to be studied with much diligence as there is just too many mentions of the word so I went back to the beginning. The only problem here was that I was reading Genesis quite differently than others until I read some of your work. This I wish I had started reading earlier, but somehow maybe I wasn’t ready. If I had started reading your work a few years ago, I may have laughed at you. I will also say that some of your views are disputable, but unimportant to me because I cannot dispute them with any wisdom. I can only study more.

    Back to Genesis. I was seeing the Jewish viewpoint of God starting his day in the evening, then I asked myself when the day ended. It ended in the morning so the second day had to start in the morning. Then trying to couple all of this with science and how it could all fit together, I came to the same conclusion as you. God’s time (if any), isn’t the same as ours.

    You have also hit on another truth. Man is an animal. Not a monkey, but an animal no less. Science here shows humans are carbon based being six protons, six neutrons and six electrons. To study this further I ran into the link below. It is an interesting point of view that I myself need to study further, but to leave you first with this thought. We are to become a changed being.

    Isaiah 62:2, Rev. 2:17, 3:12 Ezek. 36:26

    Search the word “new” you will find much more. I have just now understood even more than I knew one hour ago.

    Here is the link. Please give me your views. I can’t say I agree with all of it yet, but I find much of it to my understanding so far.

    Laugh I did when I just now pasted that.

  17. creationwitness says:

    Mentioning I am grateful would be an understatement.

  18. astudent says:


    You know, I have learned not to take anything at face value. I do agree with much of the post that you directed me to. However, I noticed that it is a dot com web site! In other words, it is a business and businesses serve money. One cannot serve two masters. I do understand that we must have money to exist in this world, but I wonder why the site is not a dot org.

    It is somewhat interesting to see how Satan is working, but I do not spend a lot of time studying Satan’s work.

    To quote Solomon Ecc 12:8 (NIV) “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher. “Everything is meaningless!”

    Be careful to not listen to men too much, and that includes me. Listening to men just takes time away from listening to our Father. ATS is a study of man and that is a depressing subject, even though I believe the site is usually right. At the risk of repeating myself, studying the world is meaningless.

    I am quite sure that Satan will defeat mankind, but only because they listen to themselves and not to God.

    It seems to me that God made the heavens and the earth before He made time! There could be no morning before God made light. As I read Genesis 1:5 it seems to me that time started the morning of the next day. I read verse five as – then there was evening and then there was morning the first day. Please do not think that I am trying to add words to Scripture. I am only trying to explain how I understand; not trying to add the word “then”.

    If you view the days like that, then it is clear that we are still in the sixth day and it seems clear, to me, that Genesis 2:1-3 is a prophecy of the future. It also makes it clear to me that man was the last thing that God created and He is not yet done with creation, because each one of us is being formed Due 32:6, Psa 199:73, Isa 29:16-43:7-43:21-44:2 There are more but I think you see my point: God is still forming His children.

    Ha, you did know that I would give my opinion. I am grateful that you put up with me, as I am definitely opinionated, am I not?

  19. creationwitness says:


    All opinions are of value and so to be opinionated is of value. I should be asleep right now, but there is too much going on in my head. I study Satan and the world to understand him and it. I have learned many things from doing so. By looking in reverse, I can sometimes see things forward ie. evening and morning. I do this when I don’t understand things.

    I agree. Before God made time God created heaven and earth.

    To quote KJV Genesis 1:5 “And the evening and the morning were the first day”. NIV follows this line.

    I know you don’t always refer to KJV and I, like you, recommend reading all versions as I believe they all hold truth. NIV is also past tense. By looking again in reverse I take you to the seventh day. How could God rest on the seventh day if there was no first? If it is the seventh day right now (which I believe is true), then there must have been a first and it must be as Genesis says. Am I missing something in my understanding?

    The way I reconcile this is to see God as being in his rest now. His creation is ongoing because that is his creation. An ongoing on that he does not need to keep making. He has finished his six days of creation and the seventh he continues by healing. He rests. Now I doubt God needs to heal himself, but he does rest. He says so. Rest is an interesting word to use in the English language because it also means remaining. I don’t think it is by chance. If we don’t rest on the seventh day of the week, we don’t properly heal to continue in the remaining life we have. I truly believe the Sabbath was meant for this. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. We need to rest the seventh day to take one entire day doing nothing other than healing our minds and bodies. I add body because if we rest properly both heal together. We work harder and feel better the next week and we know much more about our Father. The Sabbath is a different kind of work. We should be creating during the week and resting on the seventh day. Instead we destroy every day because we do not stop to contemplate God.

    Psalms 46:10 “Be still, and know that I am God”

    All of chapter 46 is interesting. Mountains swelling? Hmm, economies, bubbles and such…. I read the waters as possibly meaning the people.

    To continue:

    Genesis 2:3 “he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.”

    Everything being made, but creation continues because that is the way that it was made. We have Christ now to finish his rest day. John 5:17 can fit this thought. Jesus has never rested either as we think of rest being. I also doubt Christ needed any healing.

    To make clear my view; God is resting. His seventh day is ongoing or continuing. His rest day will end when Revelation is complete and then the first day of the second week will commence.

    I do see your point of view and I do not deny it. I just see it in a slightly different way and regardless of which thought is correct, we know that we both could be wrong 🙂

    I don’t worry about that. I just like to contemplate our Father’s work and want to study more.

    I will need to read all of what I wrote, because reading back a few lines I see possible fault, but for now I need some sleep.

  20. creationwitness says:


    I have noted a curious difference between the NIV and KJV in regards to Genesis.

    In 1:1 the word “earth” is used in both translations
    In 1:10 NIV uses the word “land” and KJV uses “earth”.

    Looking both up in the each of there own concordances I find the Strong’s number to be the same for both translations.

    I find this significant because if the word “earth” were to be used in both verses then that changes when the earth was actually made.

    If one is to read verse 1:1 it appears God created the heaven and earth before creating light. Then jumping to verse 7 the firmament (heaven) was made the second day and the earth not until the third day.

    One other notation; If there was darkness before creating light, it wouldn’t matter because it couldn’t be seen. Also if there was light without any material objects to reflect from, it also could not be seen. I don’t think God sees darkness and light as we do, but he names them both Day and Night. In NIV the two words on non cap.,

    Are Day and Night possibly Christ and Satan?

    This is confusing, but I do believe significant in the God would want us to think about this as it may be part of the answer about other questions.

    Any thoughts?

  21. creationwitness says:

    Oops. Both use Strong’s numbers being the same.

  22. astudent says:


    You are correct when you say that the concordances use the same Hebrew word in 1:10. It seems to me that this is a situation where the NIV is a bit clearer: at least for me.

    The same word is used in 1:1 for earth and in that instance it also means water.

    Gen 1:1&2 (KJV) “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

    In 1:10, it only means dry ground. Gen 1:10 (KJV) “And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.”

    Most words in any language have more than one meaning, so one has to determine which meaning applies to the word. The Hebrew word for earth can mean either land or water in Hebrew, but the two words are not interchangeable in the English language. Land only means,
    (Random House Webster’s Dictionary)
    1.any part of the earth’s surface not covered by a body of water; the part of the earth’s surface occupied by continents and islands: Land was sighted from the crow’s nest.
    2. an area of ground with reference to its nature or composition: arable land.
    3. an area of ground with specific boundaries: to buy land on which to build a house.
    4. rural or farming areas, as contrasted with urban areas: They left the land for the city.

    I have to laugh, because if this seems confusing, and it is, then it also proves the Bible correct! God confused the language at the tower of Babel and I do not see any indication that He has changed that decree.

    It might be that waters symbolize people Rev 17:15. I think that both waters and land are sometimes used to symbolize people.

    I have tried to see God’s rest as you do, but John 5:17 will not let me.

    John 5:17 (KJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

    I have to admit that I had not considered a second week in eternity. However, for another day to be possible there must be a night to separate the two days.

    Rev 21:23-25 (KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

    So, it seems to me that the seventh day will last forever and there will be no more time as we now know.

    “O”, I almost forgot! I did not understand your question, “How could God rest on the seventh day if there was no first?” Genesis does say there is a first day. What I am saying is that the firmament was divided on that day and the waters gathered on the second day. It seems as though most students of the Bible believe that the light was divided on the first day, but there cannot be a full day without a morning, and there was no morning before Genesis 1:5.

  23. creationwitness says:


    I read John 5:17 and say it is accurate. The Sabbath is different in that work does continue on the Sabbath, but it is not the same work as the other six days. I always work on the Sabbath, but not for physical survival in making money it is a rest for recuperation, contemplation, study and healing. I believe this is why God sanctified it. It is for our spiritual survival.

    If our bodies are not always working, what is it but dead?

    Yes, good point about any sort of timeline after the seventh day. I worded that incorrectly. I meant continuation.

    Something I was writing earlier;


    Another thought; If God has no time and knows the end from the beginning, why couldn’t he move through time as we know it and have had rested on the seventh day and yet be in the seventh day now?

    Nothing being impossible for him.

    Maybe this is what the scriptures have been telling us all along? I hope to find more.

  24. astudent says:


    I really do try to see, or understand, as those who have a different view than I do. I see things that would support your view that you have not quoted.

    If you are right and this is the seventh day, then look at Matthew 4:16.

    Mat 4:16 (KJV) “The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.”

    One could say that is the dawn of the seventh day. Days do not begin as with the flip of a switch. Dawn consists of a gradual increase of light and so has Christianity.

    Do not think that I believe it wrong, in any way, for someone to celebrate a Sabbath as you do. I fear that you think that I believe it wrong and I do not.

    I am alive, forever, no matter if I work or play, because the Holy Spirit is one with me and He cannot die: therefore neither can I.

    You are, of course, right; God can do anything. Well, almost anything. The correct way to say it is the way Scripture does. With God, all things are possible (Mat 19:26). And yet it is not possible for God to lie (Titus 1:2 & Heb 6:18). So, though God can do anything, we can be assured that, because He is God, He will not just do anything.

    I am curious as to how you would relate judgment as to work, or healing.

    I see other verses that support my view, but it might be better to stop on this subject, for a while.

  25. creationwitness says:


    I was somewhat confused. I thought you also believed we are in the seventh day or the morning of the seventh day. This may be because I am reading this post and your other post Was Everything Made in Six Days? I understand a person’s viewpoint may change over time and if this should happen the latter one may be more accurate. On that page you said “I believe we are in the morning of the seventh day.” and elsewhere (and I paraphrase for lack of finding it) that the birth of Christ is the morning of the seventh day. Maybe I am just confusing myself and I don’t ask you to clarify it unless you feel you need to do so. You see, I have been accused of pushing my own viewpoint on others in the past as I cannot get something off of my mind until it is clear to me. This is my lack of social grace and something I am trying to find a way to overcome, but for lack of better words this is a difficult task.

    In my mind the dawn of the seventh day began in Genesis with the fall of man. The birth of Christ or resurrection would be the first rays of sunshine on a man’s face. It has not yet waxed hot. That is how I understand it now and much of what you have written seems to be saying the same thing.

    It would not bother me if you did think that following the Sabbath was incorrect. If you did though, I would think it a strange thing because you seem to be very understanding of other views. I cannot celebrate the Sabbath in the traditional meaning of the word. I have to use the word follow or observe. I can however celebrate the fact that it was made for us.

    I can see God moving through time and even taking others with him through time. I read this in scripture such as Ezekiel 8:3 and much of Revelation. I cannot say that one could move through time in the physical body though. I believe it to be in the Spirit. Time travel is a difficult subject to comprehend.

    I relate judgement to both work and healing. I think it would be appropriate to say that the earth cannot be cleansed until judgement is complete. How do you view it?

    If you have other scripture that you would like to quote, I am always willing to read. If on the other hand you would like to give this a rest and move on to some other subject, that is good too. As you have so clearly pointed out to me, it is all the same topic.

  26. creationwitness says:


    Through discussing the word “rest” with you, I have come across some scripture that I have read many times, yet failed to open my eyes to until today. I first noticed the online version of NIV is preferable to the KJV on biblegateway because for the NIV footnote references are given with links. The KJV version of this does not. This makes searching scripture much easier. I have similar footnotes in my hard copy and can miss things if I am only reading the KJV online.

    I hope you will follow along with me here:

    Hebrews 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

    I then turned to Hebrews 4 to follow the word rest, but had to turn back to Hebrews 3 to understand it correctly. I pray you read both and give me your thoughts.

  27. astudent says:


    I have not used the on line Bible offered at biblegateway and so I am not familiar with how it works. Give me some time and even better some input of what you have learned.

    I believe I see the difference between our different views of the Sabbath. The problem is mine (of course). I did not stay focused on what struck me as wrong. To be specific, it is not the Sabbath that I disagree with!

    I do not believe that God is no longer working. I have resorted to quoting Scripture about the Sabbath instead of explaining, or attempting to explain, what I think is not correct.

    You say God is not still working, but that He is healing. In my mind, healing is work, and healing has always been the work of God. I do not understand how one could heal, without work.

    I believe that I have the Holy Spirit and His job is to teach me about God (John 14:26). I suppose one could say that He heals me, because He does, but believe me, He has to work at it.

    I am like you. I cannot get something off my mind until it is clear to me.

    I do believe that we are in the morning of the seventh day, but in trying to explain my views, I did not say it, because I was really trying to explain that I do not believe God has entered into His rest. Looks as if I confused myself: doesn’t it?

    It seems as if I have turned this discussion into an argument about words and I apologize.

  28. astudent says:


    Now I really have to laugh!

    I would bet that you wanted me to consider Hebrews 4:3!

    It looks like I will have to rethink everything that I thought about God’s rest!

    I blog and comment in order to learn and sometimes I learn that I am not quite right.

    Thanks for pointing it out.

    I am a happy man, when I find something new, because I have something more to consider.

  29. creationwitness says:

    Hi astudent,

    I use the online bible as well as a downloaded version to search scripture quickly. The online version of the NIV is more useful as I have noted above. Of course I can’t put down my hard copy version either as it has a useful topical guide and I still prefer reading from a book or piece of paper rather than a computer screen. Far more relaxing.

    You must read back. I never said God was not working instead I agree that he still is. On Sabbath day I do too, but I put down my regular survival work (monetary stability) for a spiritual one. If one were to completely stop working, one would be dead. Christ made it a point to work on the Sabbath day by healing people and not just physically because I think that is impossible without the spiritual healing first and that would be faith. All things, I believe are but a shadow of things to come. Having said that, your belief about God not yet resting may be very true.

    That does not mean I discontinue spiritual study and work during the week. That I cannot do because I do not wish too and I do not read anywhere that we should, rather the opposite.

    I prefer the word discuss. Argument sounds confrontational and in most cases is. I am not about to argue God’s stance. I don’t think that would be wise. I will however discuss it in the quest for truth.

    I would really like to hear your thoughts on Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.

  30. creationwitness says:


    You must have been reading as I was typing. It was that verse that caught my eye today and after reading chapter 4 I had to go back and read chapter 3 to make it all clear to me.

    I don’t have the words to truly express my joy at both of our discovery. Most times I do point out something similar people will do their best to deny it and continue with tradition or after their own heart.

    You are the exception.

  31. creationwitness says:


    Please excuse my typo.

  32. astudent says:


    I am slow to answer, because I have no answer, yet, nor can I say that I will have an answer at some point. I do believe that God will give me an answer, because I asked and only because I asked.

    This is just what I am looking for, a question that I have no answer for. I am sure that God will give me an answer, but He will do it in His time: not in my time.

    I am only a student and not the Teacher. I have found that I cannot control the Teacher. He teaches me, what He wants to, and I cannot make Him give me an answer to a specific question. To put it as plainly as I can, I do not control the Teacher, but He controls me, just as it should be. Many times, I am looking for an answer and the Spirit will lead me off in another direction and give me an answer to a different question.

    It seems that many people, after God gives them some answers, begin to think that they are the teacher. Then when someone points out a verse, that does not agree with their understanding, the pride that they have allowed to build in themselves, instead of the pride in the Teacher, that so graciously labors to teach His students, causes them to ignore the verse and they, as you say, ” will do their best to deny it and continue with tradition or after their own heart.”

    I pray that I do not fall into that trap and so far, God has kept me from it.

    After saying all of that, I have tried to understand the dichotomy that you have presented me with.

    First, I am sure you understand, as I do, that there are no contradictions in Scripture: only things that we do not understand, and because we do not understand, they seem as contradictions.

    I read Gen 2:2 (NIV), “By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.” Then I read John 5:17 (NIV) “Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” Therefore, I thought that Gen 2:2 was a prophecy of the future. However, as you pointed out, Hebrews 4:3 seems to place my understanding as error. Heb 4:3 (NIV) “Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, “They shall never enter my rest.'” And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.”

    I am starting to agree with you. That is, if I understand that you mean there are different works. It may be that there are works of creation, and works of God’s plan for Jesus, and then works of salvation and teaching.

    I have found that the word for that is translated in John 5:17 as work (G2038), is a different word than that used in Hebrews 4:3 (G2041) and I have found another word that is translated as work (G1754 in Rom 7:5).

    It seems that the Greek language has many words for work, with subtle differences, just as it has many words for love, also with subtle differences.

    Perhaps the works of creation are complete (Gen 2:1). And we know that the work of Jesus is complete (John 19:30). Therefore, only the work of the Holy Spirit is yet to be completed (John 14:26 with Acts 2:38).

    Well, that is where I am at this time. Have I confused you enough?

  33. creationwitness says:


    I am not confused, but maybe I am being to simplistic with the answer that I have arrived at. I will pray with you for a more complete understanding. There seems to always be more to an answer than the first one that satisfies us.

    We do need patience for answers, for when they come they will enlighten. Students cannot learn some things before they are prepared properly. I believe we read the answers all the time, we just don’t understand them yet.

    Rest assured I do not expect expedient replies from you either.

  34. creationwitness says:


    Have a look at John 9:4. It uses both G2038 and G2041 in the same verse. The two types of work are certainly different. G1754? There is more study to do on this. I am glad you that you have pointed this out. It is very interesting.

  35. astudent says:


    You are correct; John 9:4 is interesting.

    I noticed that the KJV says, “I must work the works” and the NIV says, “we must do the work of him who sent me”. Sometimes the NIV makes more sense to me than the KJV. However, in this case, the KJV seems much more accurate. There is a big difference between I and we. I believe that Jesus was doing all of the work and others should not claim, or infer that anyone else did, or could, do the works of God.

    It might be that G2038 is a description of the type of work along with the indication that it requires labor and G2041 only means labor.

    If I understand the verse, it says that night came when Jesus was crucified (Man put the great light out, that we were told about in Matthew 4:16). Now no man can work the works of God, because the Holy Spirit (who is not a man) is doing that work.

    I got G1754 from Romans 7:5 – (KJV+) ForG1063 whenG3753 we wereG2258 inG1722 theG3588 flesh,G4561 theG3588 motionsG3804 of sins,G266 whichG3588 were byG1223 theG3588 law,G3551 did workG1754 inG1722 ourG2257 membersG3196 to bring forth fruitG2592 unto death.G2288

    Well, that is much clearer on the computer screen. It shows the Strong’s numbers smaller and in a different color.

    Just to throw something else into the mix, in Romans 16:12 the NIV uses the word work for G2872 and the KJV translates it as labor. As I checked the meaning of work and labor in the English language, I begin to understand how easily we are confused. The first definition of the word labor is a, “productive activity, esp. for the sake of economic gain.” and in the definition of work there is no mention of gain, until the forth definition.

    Depending on the context, work can mean, the type of work that one does, the place that one works, physical labor, and many other things: even things such as a painting, etc.!

  36. creationwitness says:


    I don’t know where you are on your thoughts about the Sabbath and it is not for me to say or judge if a person is to follow it or not. I can only tell a person (as I was told) how to prove it correct. That is by following it. If one is to do so, I can say that everything you do will be more clear especially in answer to prayers. When a person follows Sabbath it seems God pays attention. Not to say that he won’t if you don’t, just in a much more obvious and stronger way.

    I think a person may also find that it is difficult to follow at first. I began by seeking every reason not to, but once I did, it also wasn’t easy for me. I wanted to labor (as you pointed out) sweeping the floor, washing clothes etc., Strangely enough I could do those chores on any other day, but I wanted to do them on Sabbath. It was an inner urge that I had to do my best to ignore. I have also noted what happens when it is broken. It can bring strife. Satan steps in laughing and tries his best to take the follower back. I was fortunate to be alone on Sabbath when I started, but later when together with another that knowingly broke Sabbath, I noticed some very abnormal behavior in them. After asking forgiveness in prayer, this display ceased.

    Everyone needs to have it in their heart that it is correct to follow and be well prepared in advance. Read as much as you can about it and ask in prayer for strength prior to following. A person also needs to be well prepared with food and drink for the day. Heal yourself and others on this day. It was made for man. Praise God.

  37. astudent says:


    I have been slow to answer, because I do not want to ruin anything for you.

    It cannot be a bad thing, to spend a day devoted to God.

    I do not observe the Sabbath, as was commanded to Israel, in the Old Testament.

    I will only say this, it is not just the Sabbath, that was made for man, but everything, that was made, was made for man! God did not, or does not, need any of the universe, or even anything in it.

  38. creationwitness says:

    Hi astudent,

    There is never any rush to answer. It is always good to contemplate a reply.

    I don’t think it would be possible for anyone to ruin anything for me unless they could prove that I was delusional and that may lead to the fact that I could also be insane. If that is the case, then it still could not spoil my faith and happiness in God.

    I find it curious and possible that God does not need anything that he has created. Possible in that if this one fails, another could be made. I have to doubt that possibility as we would not be here if that were so (knowing the end from the beginning). I believe God does need his children.

    Indeed it can be said that God made the Sabbath specifically for Israel and so we as Gentiles do not need to follow it. It is a personal choice for every individual to follow.

    I can only add that if one denies the truth without testing it, then that is also a personal choice. We do have free will.

    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed
    the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case
    enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the
    Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my
    flesh, and might save some of them.
    11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
    what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of
    the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his
    goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    Time has always been to short for proper preparation and one can say the end is near, but I say, it doesn’t matter for the end of each of our lives is near. Why wait to fill one’s lamp with oil?

    I pray all have the strength of faith to follow the Sabbath and prove it to themselves.

  39. astudent says:


    I have a hard time believing that God needs me. I am sure that I am a child of God, but I am also sure that if I were to disown Jesus, he would disown me (Mat 10:32&33). The choice is mine and if God needed me, he would not even give that choice to me.

    I am sure that you have not thought of this, in this way, but I believe that I would be thinking of myself much too highly, if I were to think that God needs me.

    I believe that you are right when you said, ‘Possibly in that if one fails, another could be made’. God made the whole nation of Israel and it failed to produce the fruit that God wanted it to produce. So, He took His kingdom from them and gave it to the Christian Nation (Mat 21:43). I might add that, though He created the Nation of Israel, and He offered them everything, He did not need them.

    I am sure that you do not believe that it is necessary to obey the command that God gave to Israel about the Sabbath, in order to be saved. However, your words are close to it being a requirement. At least, I think that one, who does not understand as well as we do, might get that idea.

    Now, I have to laugh. I don’t follow the Sabbath: do you see any “very abnormal behavior” in me? Though this is humorous to me, feel free to point it out, if you see any.

    I certainly agree with you, that the end of the world is close to everyone. The end of this world comes with death and it amazes me that others do not see it! What difference does the end of the world make to someone that will not be here to see it?

    I pray that everyone will obey the two basic commands – Love our God with all of our heart, mind, and strength, and love our neighbor as our self. Those are commandments for all seven days

  40. creationwitness says:


    Maybe need is to strong a word, but I use it in the sense that if one loves you, they need you. If you disappear, will they vanish too? Of course not. Does God need you? I think so, otherwise why are you here? Remember, God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.

    It is wise to humble yourself, but it is also wise to know you are loved.

    I see Israel’s failure as needed to teach what not to do 🙂 In the end, they are to be saved.

    I believe that if one doesn’t know their transgression that they are to be beaten with “few stripes”. Luke 12:48. So no, I am not insinuating one would not be saved. I hold faith that more will be saved than we can imagine in our ego loving minds.

    Abnormal behavior? I think it would be abnormal, if not peculiar, if you did follow Sabbath. I say this for reasons not yet given.

    If one is to truly follow the two great commandments, how can one break any other?

    At one very recent point in time I had to ask myself why it was so important for God to include the Sabbath in his commandments. Until last year, I never followed. I now know my mistake and hope that others will learn from it earlier than I did. I pray that others will follow because I know what they will find.

  41. astudent says:


    I believe that you are right when you say that Israel’s failure teaches what not to do. It teaches us what not to do, but it did not teach Israel. They went from right to wrong so many times that God finally stopped trying to teach them.

    All of Israel will not be saved (Psa 95:11) and God does not love everyone (Rom 9:13).

    I agree that many will be saved, if you mean everyone that will be saved. What I mean is at the wedding banquet at the end of time, there will be millions of people, but at any one time, in this world, the saved are few (Mat 7:13&14). When the saved are added together, to include all of them, from all time, there will be many.

    You understand the two great commandments. If these are followed, there is no need of any others. The Holy Spirit has revealed this to you and it is a wonderful thing. Israel, or anyone else, does not need any other commands.

    I believe that spending every seventh day with God is a wonderful endeavor. It would be seven times better to spend all of our time with God. I know, as He does, that is not possible and I am not recommending it; it just seems right to say it.

    I believe that it was important for God to include the Sabbath as a symbol to Israel that there will be a rest, when they/we will not have to watch our backs all the time. When we can live in peace, because everyone around us will obey the two great commandments (I like the sound of “two great commandments”, thanks for wording it that way).

    We are told that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come (Col 2:16&17) and it is. It is symbolic of God’s rest, but we are not required to follow it. Just as we are not required to observe Jewish holydays, or tithes, or any of the Law of Moses. Only the Law of God are we required to obey (The two great commandments).

    As a gentile I am required to do very little (Acts 15:28&29) and I will not add anything to this. Why would I? Even though I believe that spending a day with my Father a great thing, I will not let it become a requirement.

    I am not judging your convictions about the Sabbath. I believe it would be a good habit for anyone and I see why you recommend it. I am only saying that it is not a requirement and we should be careful not to imply that it is.

  42. creationwitness says:


    I have been blessed to have found you because though your view point is similar, it is not the same. This makes it a blessing to hone one’s thoughts in a non-confrontational way.

    Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

    I know you have stated that iron cannot sharpen iron, but I used to cook and sharpened my knives daily using a sharpening iron, so I see it a bit different. If I were to pound the knife against the iron it would damage it, but by honing it against the iron it will sharpen it and sharpen quickly.

    I should have said “Israel is to be saved” meaning not all of them, but a remnant. Agreed God does not love everyone. I do believe if you love God and follow his commandments, he will in turn love you John 14:21.

    The two great commandments are not my words. They are found in KJV (also in Mark 12, 1 John 4 and probably elsewhere, but I quote Matthew)


    22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
    22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    If you follow these two great commandments, the others are not needed because they will be written in your heart. You cannot break the other commandments because of it. Hebrews 8 is of good reading. I do not see the Gentile believers to be separated from Israel, but grafted in as previously mentioned Romans 11. All of Paul’s writings are widely, but not exclusively for the Gentiles.

    Acts 15 28-29 seems to negate following the commandments, but following the commandments are not a burden or stumbling stone. They are a blessing. If I was to follow only verse 29, I am doomed. I would not love God and I would not love my neighbor. I could commit all atrocities and be saved:) I truly doubt that is what it means.

    You also mention Colossians 2. Truly a shadow of things to come meaning not here yet, but on the way. Verse 18 “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility”. Yes, the Sabbath is a reward and no it is not a requirement. One can only know the reward by voluntary humility. Following the

    I cannot go a day without thinking about God and I don’t think you can either. I pray always. The Sabbath is just a very different day than the others. It is voluntary humility not not requirement. Neither is loving God.

    I never knew the importance of following Sabbath until I started to follow. Even though I tried my best to find reason not to, I only found reason to. I started by looking for reasons not to and then took the opposite view and came to the conclusion that my brother had been right all along. It took me a few years of denial though.

    My brother told me something that I found to be very true. He said if one is to follow Sabbath that one’s prayer would become very strong. I now tell you this same thing because I know what you will find and I want to hear what more will come to you.

    If on the other hand you would like to drop this, just tell me so. There is much more iron to be sharpened:)

  43. creationwitness says:


    Something else has also come to mind and I will not be able to sleep until I write it down.

    As you have probably already figured out; there is only one great command.

    Beyond that I remember you mentioning Deuteronomy 27 in regards to abortion. I have to completely agree with what you wrote on that. You used verse 25, but right after that verse 26 states:

    Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

    My point here is that if we are to obey the law (love), then we just do as we are told because we know that our Father would want us to follow him because it is right. His creation is us. He wants his children (us) to be like him.

    The way I interpret the old and new scripture is by following one verse of love and denying another is breaking the law of love. I think in James it states “if one of the least is broken, all are broken”. I paraphrase out of need of sleep.

    The law was a stumbling block to Israel for love of self. They never followed the one great commandment and of course it is the first listed.

    I think we all need to consider why our Father gave us more than one though. My personal conclusion thus far is without all of them, we could not prove ourselves. The new covenant has changed much of the ordinances, but I find nowhere written that any of the commandments have changed.

    Somewhere in our minds tells us to break commandment. Even in small ways like white lies. Telling any lie is false witness no matter how clean we try to keep the filth.

    Enough for now. I hope I can catch a few hours sleep.

  44. astudent says:


    In March 2007, I wrote a post “IRON SHARPENS IRON?” and there have been 173 comments on that post. If you have hours to waste I believe you will find that men do not want to believe that iron will not sharpen iron, but so far no one has accepted the challenge that I offered. That is to actually attempt it.

    The proper name for a sharpening iron is a Steel. It is a tool used for straightening the edge of a blade. A blade with a bent edge, though it is sharp, will seem dull to the user. After being steeled, it will seem sharp, because it cuts better. However, a steel cannot hone, or remove any metal from the blade, because it is of a softer material than the blade. One must cut away the metal of the blade, in order to leave an edge and a softer metal cannot cut a harder one. No amount of steeling will sharpen a dull edge. Don’t believe me, then try it.

    It is good to trade comments, ideas, and understandings, but only a stone can sharpen any blade. God is our rock (stone) (Deu 32:3&4) and we are the iron. If we but ask, and then seek, our rock will sharpen us.

    Many times, I have read the verses that you quoted, about the great commandments, and yet when I wanted to write about them, for some reason “great” commandments did not come to mind! All I could think of was royal, or golden! No wonder the words “great and greatest commandments” sounded so good to me, they are the words of God and music to my ears! Thanks for waking me up. You show your desire for truth, when you refused to take credit for the words, and I am encouraged because of that.

    You said that if one observes the Sabbath, then one’s prayer would become very strong. I don’t quite understand what you mean. I view my prayers as my side of a conversation with our Father. Like Jesus, I acknowledge that what ever God wants is that which should be. I may ask our Father for something, which seems right to me, but I do not know everything and what I ask for may cause a different outcome than what I think should be. So, I do not want any power in my prayer.

    Let us say that a child is sick. Now, I do not want anyone to be sick, so I pray to God that the child be healed and my prayer has power. So, God grants my wish and heals the child, but after the child grows up, I find that he is Hitler!

    I really had not pieced together that there is only one great commandment, or better-said greatest commandment. Scripture states there is a greatest commandment, but one must think about Scripture, before God grants understanding. I see that all of the law hangs on the first commandment, but until now, I had not thought about it.

    The law has not changed (Mat 5:18), but the rituals have. Tithing is a ritual and it is not possible to tithe as in the Old Testament. One can give ten percent to the church, but one cannot Tithe. One has to know where the place the Lord has chosen to eat the Tithe and that is not known.

    Every seventh year was a Sabbath rest for the land, but it is no longer a requirement. It was for the land of Israel and a ritual. If one were to observe the Sabbath year now, could that mean any rest for the land of Israel?

    The temple sacrifices were rituals and we are no longer required to obey them.

    The Law of Moses was rituals and not the Law of God. It was only rituals that pointed to the Law of God.

    Col 2:14 (NIV) having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

    It seems to me that the Law of Moses is the written code that was canceled, but the Law of God was not (Mat 5:18).

    We are very close to agreement, but it is hard for any two to agree perfectly, because of how they are viewing a subject.

    We both agree that spending time with God is a wonderful thing. However, it seems to me that you view one day as more important than another, because you put emphasis on verses about the Sabbath, but I do not view any day as different.

    If keeping the Sabbath is a Law then we are all doomed, because we have all violated the Sabbath.
    Exo 31:14&15 (KJV) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

    Even after saying all of this, I am glad that you dedicate a special day to the Lord and I see nothing wrong with it.

  45. creationwitness says:


    I commented on iron sharpenning iron on the appropriate page as you are probably already aware.

    By strong I mean more effective. Why? I can’t truly answer that except that it might be that God will listen to you because you listen to him. I always listen to children better when they follow what I say. If they are disobedient, I tell them what is right and if they still don’t listen, I tell them I am not going to listen to them either. It is not that I stop listening, but I wait for them to realize their mistake and hope they change. They always do, but they will slip back to the world very soon after. I also make it clear that I don’t know everything and that I may be wrong. If they think that I am wrong, they should point it out. I wouldn’t want to lead any one of the astray.

    The bible also doesn’t mention, anywhere that I have found nullifying the Sabbath or any other commandment. If I did, I wouldn’t follow it or them. On the contrary, much is said about keeping them.
    The word commandment alone is mentioned more than 80 times in the new testament. I doubt God would repeat himself so many times without reason. There is something to be learned.

    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Paul has much to say on how the law was corrupted and of course all of chapter 7 must be read. You have also pointed out the corruption of it. The people did not follow the written law.

    Another question is; If there are two great commandments, then there must be lesser ones yes? Otherwise they wouldn’t be great, they would just be the only two commandments.

    But Jesus says it best in Matthew 5:17-28

    I was taken aback when I first read this. Thought alone with lust or anger holds the danger of judgment.
    I have therefor committed every sin. All of them including every precept and judgment. I hope everyone will take some time to study these verses.

    Also read 1 John 2:3-4, 3:4, 5:2-3, 2 John 1:6

    If I haven’t pointed out enough, it is because I am lacking in enough knowledge to do so correctly. I know I need some more sharpening. That I am sure of regardless. If one wants the truth, then it is best to sincerely pray for it. I know your answer will come.

    One thing I do know is that Satan’s lies are so convincing that it is hard to see the truth. None of us can be doomed if we seek the truth, but we must do so with diligence and the hope of finding it. When we do, our faith will grow. I for one need more faith.

    As you have quoted, I hope the following is not the shadow of things to come spoke of by Paul:

    Exo 31:14&15 (KJV) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

  46. creationwitness says:


    I can’t help myself, but to add to the above. This is what I was led to yesterday and of course many of us have read, many times:

    1 John:

    2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
    And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus
    Christ the righteous:
    2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our’s only, but
    also for the sins of the whole world.
    2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
    2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God
    perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even
    as he walked.
    2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old
    commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old
    commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    1 John:

    3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
    that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world
    knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
    what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall
    be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even
    as he is pure.
    3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Can one deny that any of the law can be broken?

    My younger brother hates me for doing this. He says he knows I am going to come back with more words to try and pursued him. I told him he had better put me in his spam filter. I think he did. I haven’t heard back from him since.

    What he doesn’t know is that I am not trying to pursued him into truth. He must pursued himself. I am only seeking the wisdom of how to present what I learn in a concise way. The only apology that I have is that I have not yet found that wisdom.

  47. creationwitness says:


    I have been praying for the wisdom to explain why the Sabbath is important and today I have a much better understanding. I got shivers down my spine when I read the following because this is exactly what I have been thinking, right down to the very cell phone call. Now I am 100% sure of the significance of Sabbath and why it is a commandment. I may not yet have a 100% understanding as there is probably more, but the analogy given here is well worth reading. I pray this finds you well. From the Berean daily verse received March 17:

    Matthew 22:37-40

    (37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    King James Version Change your email Bible version

    The Ten Commandments can be summarized in two overall principles: love toward God (Deuteronomy 6:5) and love toward neighbor (Leviticus 19:18). The first four commandments deal with our relationship with God, and the last six commandments expound on our relationship with fellow man.

    What does it mean to have a relationship with God? An analogy is frequently used to describe the relationship between Christ and the church is that of a groom and a bride (Revelation 21:1-4). Likewise, Paul writes in II Corinthians 11:2: “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” The word “betrothed” seems somewhat archaic; today, we would say the church is “engaged” to Christ. By making the New Covenant with Him, we have agreed to spend all eternity with Him, but at present, we are within the period preceding the marriage described in Revelation 19:7-9. Following the analogy, we are to be preparing ourselves for this future relationship. During this preparation time, the parties involved are getting to know each other. God the Father has handpicked us for this relationship, and now is the time we need to make ourselves ready.

    How does this fit into the Sabbath and the concept of ownership? God has already established a regular meeting time with us—a “date,” as it were. Every week, that part of our schedule is already determined. Amos 3:3 asks, “Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?” In other words, can a person meet with another if they have not determined a meeting time?

    Sabbath time has been specially designated as the Bride’s time with Jesus Christ. This does not mean that we should restrict our interaction with Him to this day; on the contrary, part of each day should be devoted to prayer and Bible study. Nevertheless, this is a primary reason the seventh day has been set apart and made holy.

    What does this mean practically? Imagine a couple planning to marry. Being devoted to one another, they have set their wedding date and have agreed to meet on a weekly basis. It is easy to see that, if the young man shows up at the designated time, but the young woman suddenly decides that there is a more convenient time, a rift is going to develop in the relationship. Obviously, the correct day is vitally important. God has already established that day.

    Suppose the couple gets the day right, and they meet and spend time together. What if the young lady, in the midst of this quality time she is supposed to be spending with the one she loves, pulls out a cellphone and begins talking to her friends, as if her fiancé does not even exist? What if the topic of conversation, either between her and her friends or between her and her fiancé, is little more than gossip or what she is planning on doing as soon as her weekly date with her alleged beloved is over? Or, what if their date, which her betrothed had made special for them, has become a mere ceremony to her? What if she just goes through the motions, doing the things required of her, showing little or no feeling about what this relationship really means to her?

    On a spiritual level, we are commanded to assemble, if possible, and part of our Sabbath is intended to be for fellowshipping. What are the topics of our conversation? Do sports, entertainment, shopping, or business advance our relationship with God? Is catching up on the latest gossip and social news appropriate for this time that does not belong to us? During this weekly appointment, where do our thoughts wander? Do we think about our business interests or financial concerns? Do we think about or make plans for what we are going to do as soon as the sun sets? Do we esteem Saturday night more than the time God has set apart for us to meet with Him? Are our Sabbath services mere ceremonies? Are we demonstrating to God by our actions on this day that we are eagerly looking forward to spending eternity with Him?

    These are points to ponder.

    — David C. Grabbe

  48. astudent says:


    You seem to think that observing the Sabbath as in the Old Testament is right, but it does not seem right to me.

    As I study the Law of Moses, which is the Law of the Old Testament, and also called the Law of the Lord, but usually just called the Law, I find that it is the law of condemnation. It is perfect and must be followed perfectly. If it is not perfectly followed, then the one, who is trying, is condemned. If someone could follow the law perfectly, they could walk into Heaven without a Savior and we know that there was only one that could have done that. Therefore, the Law was given to us that we might understand that we are all in need of a Savior. To convict us, not to save us. No one is saved by the Law.

    Melchizedek was the High Priest of the Law of the Old Testament (High Priest forever), but Jesus became the new High Priest (Heb 5:8-10). Melchizedek was the High Priest of condemnation, but Jesus is the High Priest of mercy.

    The Law was changed (Heb 7:12). Well, one can see that every detail about the Law is still the same, except the penalties for disobeying it. If one has confidence that Jesus can save those who violate the Law then there is no fear of not following the Law perfectly.

    That is not to say that we should not try to follow the commands of God. However, Jesus, the new High Priest, only gave us one command.

    (KJV) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    For me to try to follow the old Law would be an act of unfaith. I would be saying to my self, “I believe Jesus will save me from my sins, but just incase he will not, I will try to obey the Law of Moses”. I am sure that you do not see it this way, that you are trying to fulfill the Law of Moses, but for me, it would seem as though I was attempting it.

    Even the two greatest commandments, which are demands, cannot be fulfilled by the one who receives them. It is not possible to demand that someone love you and expect true love in return. You might receive what seems to be love, but true love must come from the heart. It can never come from a demand. You see, loving God from your heart is what God wants from us: not because it is demanded.

    I believe that dedicating one day of the week to God would be a good thing, however trying to fulfill the Law of Moses is not possible, without obeying all of the Law of Moses: and that is not possible.

  49. creationwitness says:


    I can only read Romans 6 keeping a few things in mind. Verse 19 of the same, Matthew 5:18 and John 14:15 being the ones that are clear in my mind.

    Don’t follow God’s laws because it is law. Follow with the faith knowing them to be right. If you think one of them is wrong, then who am I to say? I do however recommend a person to study the placement and reasoning of the Sabbath.

  50. astudent says:


    Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not advocating that one should not follow the Law.

    I will say that it seems to me that there is no punishment for some of the written Law. Perhaps I should say ‘no punishment for me’.

    The Law of Moses, which is where the Law of Sabbath comes from, was given to Israel and the aliens that lived within their gates. I am not an Israelite nor have I ever lived within the gates of one. Therefore, the Law of the Sabbath was never applied to me. However, the Law of God is and has always been part of me.

    Rom 2:14 (KJV) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    Jesus did not condemn his disciples for preparing their food on the Sabbath, as the Pharisees did and I am quite sure that he would not condemn me either.

    I am in complete agreement with you when you recommend a person to study the placement and reasoning of the Sabbath. I would add tithing and fasting also, because these two are not taught properly. All of God’s Word is profitable when studied.

    I am not judging your actions about the Sabbath. I am only trying to explain my beliefs just as you try to explain yours.

    Rom 14:5&6 (KJV) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

    I am fully persuaded in my own mind and I give thanks the Lord.

  51. creationwitness says:


    You may not be Jewish, but you are of Israel. Read Romans 9.

    Romans 3 is also a chapter (among others Paul wrote) that needs complete understanding. Paul’s writings are of hard understanding as Peter pointed out.

    Many refuse the Sabbath as some past ordinance that no longer needs observance. Made a burden instead of being recognized as a true blessing. You know; Go to church, pay your tithes etc., that is not what the Sabbath is about, though it never hurts to do so any day of the week.

    If that is the way one feels, then so be it, but I don’t know how any one can deny what Christ said in Matthew:

    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
    not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
    one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Was Christ only teaching nine of the laws?

    You point to Romans 2:14, but to be more complete:

    2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without
    law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the
    2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
    things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law
    unto themselves:
    2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
    conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
    accusing or else excusing one another;)

    Jesus made strong points about how Sabbath observance had been corrupted by man. This is also in Paul’s writings. The law is now followed in faith that it is right to do so. If we follow Christ, we follow his commandments otherwise who do we follow?

    The law was and still is a stumbling block. A very strong delusion.

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

    Do you remain so persuaded? Is one day alike another?

    I give my regards to his day.

  52. creationwitness says:


    I know you have said following the Sabbath in the old testament does not seem right to you and you may have grounds for thinking so. If one should look hard enough to deny it, then one will find what they are seeking. I encourage you (as is my duty) to take the opposite stance. Begin looking at all the reasons why the Sabbath has never been abolished.

    As a matter of faith and previous conversation regarding shadow, I point you to Hebrews 10 and of course the whole chapter is very important, but verses 16 and 25 are of particular interest. Verse 1 speaks of the shadow. Re-read the whole chapter now and I pray it becomes more clear.

    I have recently heard some say that Paul is some sort of anti-Christ because his writings. A true anti-Christ has actually written a book on it. Apart from that complete nonsense, in 2 Peter 3 it clearly states that some things in Paul’s epistles are not easily understood and warns of being led away.

    I think it may be a matter of contention with you that you do not believe you should gather in church to follow Sabbath and I don’t blame you one bit. I would like to point out however that few of the churches follow correctly anyway. One must look elsewhere. Begin as the first churches began.

    My prayers go out to all.

  53. astudent says:


    I do enjoy trading comments, ideas, and understanding with you, because you are genuinely truthful in what you believe. Neither one of us can be right all of the time and therefore it is not even necessary. If it were, God would make it so.

    I trust that you will not hold my views against me, though they may seem to be different from yours. Having said that, I do not believe our views are that much different. It only seems that way because we are placing more importance on parts of understanding, but the whole of what we understand is the same. Something like standing so close to a tree that the view of the forest is blocked.

    I had written another attempt to convey my understanding to you, but as God has finally convinced me, it is not possible for me to teach you. After all, it is not I that died for you, it is not my mind that is in your mind, and it would seem to me to be an affront to the one who did, if I were to try to teach.

    I think that I am beginning to see how God blocks a man from teaching another. You quote a verse that supports your view, or understanding, and I quote a verse that opposes yours and it causes you to only search for verses that you support your understanding. That hampers the process of learning, instead of enhancing it.

    Scripture does say, “Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.” However, the same Scripture says ” The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.” The same Scripture says that David and the priests of the temple desecrated the Sabbath and yet they were declared innocent.

    All Scripture is absolutely true, so if Scripture seems to contradict itself then one should search for understanding, instead of validation. When we only consider verses that support our view, we are trying to validate our own understanding and because of that, we cannot learn how the verses fit together.

    On the subject that we seem to disagree on, ask the one who died for you, “How can God say, whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death and then say David and the priests of the temple are declared innocent?” He lives in your mind and is one with you and he will certainly answer you.

    As for me, I understand how they fit together, but God will not allow me to explain it to you. Though I wish He would, in my heart I am grateful that He will not. I would explain that also: if I could.

    It would be quite funny to me, if it were not so trying.

  54. creationwitness says:


    I would never hold your understanding against you. That would be judgmental and where would that put me? I am only trying to open your eyes as mine were opened to the Sabbath truth. My previous understanding of it was very much the same as yours and it took much convincing by another person, but more so on my own to find it. To do this I had to take the other point of view and without doing so I would never have found it.

    The new covenant was to put the old away. If we go back to Genesis we will find that Adam did not die immediately.

    It is now all spiritual. How can not one jot or tittle pass away and yet still be there? The shadow is there because something is casting it.

    One needs to ask why it was written in the first place. Just to be done away with? Is any of it put away?

    I continue to implore you to study further. I have faith and prayer that if you do, you will see the truth. Hebrews 10 really says much of what is needed. God is not contradicting himself.

  55. creationwitness says:


    Please do not think that I am implying spiritual death. If anything, it would be that possibility though. We see by this scripture that it doesn’t have to be like that:

    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
    one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    I am also not trying to be the greatest. I said before I would be grateful to be able to clean the latrines in heaven and having said that, as an afterthought, I had to put myself to the test by cleaning a publicly used one 🙂

    You know the greatest commandments. What are the least of all commandments? How does that fit in with your current understanding?

  56. astudent says:


    Don’t you see that you are putting your faith in man? The man that convinced you that the law is still in effect did not/does not understand that the law was given only to Israel: not to gentiles. It was given to condemn, not to save.

    Tell me how do you fit Hebrews 7:12 into your understanding? (KJV) “For the priesthood being changed, THERE IS MADE OF NECESSITY A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW.” Don’t you claim that the law has not changed?

    Col 2:13&14 (NIV) “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, HAVING CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, WITH ITS REGULATIONS, THAT WAS AGAINST US AND STOOD OPPOSED TO US, HE TOOK IT AWAY, nailing it to the cross.”

    How do you reconcile Exo 31:14 (NIV) “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.” with Mat 12:5 (NIV) “Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?”

    Do you not realize that you are attempting to teach the law? The law does not/ cannot save. The law is good and perfect, but no one except Jesus has followed the law and therefore everyone except Jesus is condemned. The law has accomplished its purpose. There is no need for me to attempt to obey the written code, with its regulations. It has convinced me that I am a sinner, in need of a Savior.

    The new law is given in John 13:34 (NIV) “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” It is the same command that God gave in the Old Testament, but the Old Testament law did not allow for any error, therefore it only condemned. The law of Jesus is the law of love and it leaves room for error. Why would I want to practice a form of law that has been changed? Wouldn’t that be a step backward? Jesus suffered greatly so that I might not be condemned by the law. What kind of gratitude would I show to my Savior, if I returned to a law, that he went so far as to die, that I might be released from?

    Heb 7:11&12 (NIV) “If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? FOR WHEN THERE IS A CHANGE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, THERE MUST ALSO BE A CHANGE OF THE LAW.”

    Melchizedek was the first High Priest that had no beginning and no end, which means not of man and he was replaced by Jesus, Heb 5:6 (NIV) “And he says in another place, “YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER, in the order of Melchizedek.”

    Heb 5:9 (NIV) “and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” If I practice the command that my Lord gave me, then I obey the law.

    Rom 7:6 (NIV) “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
    Col 2:14 (NIV) “having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

    I will not let you judge me in regard to a Sabbath day, and I know you would not do so on purpose, and I will not judge you either. However, I will not practice the written code, with its regulations, that are against me.

    Col 2:20-23 (NIV) “Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.”

    I didn’t say that: God did.

    I probably angered you a bit, but I know that you will obey our Lord and forgive me for it, because I know your heart.

    I almost missed giving an answer to your last question. There is no least of the commands. There is only one command that our Savior gave us, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another”.

  57. creationwitness says:


    It was for the very reason of not putting my faith in one man that I had to find it for myself. Hebrews 7 explains it all. It is by faith. It is the new covenant written in the new man with the new heart. Yes, the law has very much changed as it says so. A new testament because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death.

    Colossians 2 yet again explains it. It is all about faith and pertaining to the law it is commandments and doctrines of men spoken of.

    Exodus 31:14 Doesn’t Hebrews 7 say it clear?

    Matthew 12:5 Why were they found blameless? By God or man? God clearly finds error in Ezekiel 23: 38-39 and Malachi 1 if not other places.

    I am not at all attempting to teach the law. Very much not so and no, you do not need to follow the written law. It should be in your heart, followed with the faith just as you would not kill, steal, lie or any other. I see the Sabbath as a real test of faith. Do we obey or deny our Father’s wishes? If we have faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then should we not follow what he asked of us?

    John 13:34 is repeated in similar fashion in 1 John. Notice how in both he is addressing little children in one and young children in the other? Does one new law or commandment away with all of the old? Not according to Christ himself saying “not one jot”

    1 John:
    2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old
    commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old
    commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
    2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in
    him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now
    shineth. 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
    2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none
    occasion of stumbling in him.

    If we love God, we are just not going to commit any sin at all. If and when we do, we need fervent prayer of forgiveness. We are bound to slip up sooner or later in the flesh body.

    The Sabbath is not “do not”, but do so in the faith that it is right. Then you will find that it is correct. I doubt you will know for sure until you do.

    No least commandment? No, not just one. Again, but adding verse 17.

    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
    not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
    one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    One new commandment doesn’t nullify all the rest. It makes the new covenant a blessing to follow. That is; one lost sheep to another. Follow our Lord. Sabbath is to keep us strong being together.

    astudent, You have not angered me in the least. Not too long ago, I would have become very frustrated, but now, not even that. This has taught me a very valuable lesson and that is how to have more patience, more love, more mercy and the real bliss found in all of our blessings.

    Satan I am sure hates those words, but I do not fear him any more.

    The first commandment with the promise of things to come and the shield of faith.


    6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
    6:2 Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with
    6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the
    6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring
    them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
    6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to
    the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as
    unto Christ;
    6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ,
    doing the will of God from the heart;
    6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
    6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
    6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing
    threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is
    there respect of persons with him.
    6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
    6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand
    against the wiles of the devil.
    6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
    principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
    this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
    6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
    6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
    6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to
    quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
    6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit,
    which is the word of God:
    6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and
    watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all
    6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
    6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

  58. creationwitness says:


    I forgot to mention two things I find important. First; I am not sure why you capitalize Sabbath. You are one of the very few that do. Second; considering you have insight to when the day begins, how many churches do you know of that begin the Sabbath on Saturday morning?

  59. creationwitness says:


    It just came to mind what you said earlier about “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”.

    Maybe this is one of the reasons you have tried your best to find reason not to follow Sabbath? Focused on what you can’t do on the Sabbath day instead of being focused on God himself and what he gave us this day for. Spiritual renewal.

    There is too much written in scripture about this to ignore it. That very fact alone should open one’s eyes. If we follow the first and greatest commandment, then why abolish any of the rest? No pun intended.

    Just a thought and good enough reason to do away with the “Do nots”. That is where Israel slipped.

  60. creationwitness says:


    Prior to my leaving the city this weekend, I would like to make a request of you, but first I need to sincerely that God and you.

    I thought I knew much about the Sabbath, but of course I was found wrong. I knew little about it before these few days of intense study on it. I now know the extreme importance God placed on it. I know he wants you to understand this as well. You see, without your prompting me to find what I thought I understood, I would have never understood what I know now. I am sure there is more to come as well, because when I start to believe I know as much as I need, God slaps me back down and puts me in place again.

    My request: I ask you to assist me in prayer for all of the lost sheep. That God gives us all the strength and wisdom to show them the way back. This prayer for me is in particular to my very own brother whom I have been out of contact with for some time, but also for every one of us as we truly need each other now. It is the last time 1 Peter 1:5. We need to come together for study to enhance our understanding.

    Also a bible truth I stumbled upon this morning; I never had good understanding of John 21:22-23, but always had question and prayer to have more.

    21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that
    to thee? follow thou me.
    21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

    John tarried until he had completed the writing of Revelation. Christ’s return.

    So simple, but I never saw the truth of it and never heard or read anything similar.

    I hope I find you with enough question in your mind to continue to study about the Sabbath. I know I am not errant to encourage you to do so.

  61. creationwitness says:


    Sometimes our eyes just can’t see. It happens to the best of us.

    11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings,
    and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    What is the ark of his testament doing in Revelation? Testifying?

    That is just one more eye opener that I find impossible to deny. I am quite curious to know if you can.

  62. astudent says:


    It seems as though you have confused me. You say that you are not attempting to teach the Law and yet it seems to me that you are trying to teach me to obey the Sabbath. I will repeat what I said, I think more than once, I see nothing wrong and everything good with devoting a day to God. However, when you add a requirement that one should do no work, then you are teaching the Law as it was given to Israel.

    In your study of the Law, did you notice that the Sabbath was given to Israel before He gave the Ten Commandments? It was/is as much about the Bread that came from Heaven as it is about a day of the week. We gather and consume the true Bread from Heaven, but we will not have to gather on the Sabbath. When everything is finished, it will be wrong to prophecy, every one will know and everyone will have enough of the bread of life.

    You say that you are not trying to teach the law! Isn’t the Sabbath part of the Law? If I kept the Sabbath and did not keep the Tithe wouldn’t I also be guilty of breaking the Law? (James 2:10 (NIV)) For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

    You say,” I see the Sabbath as a real test of faith. Do we obey or deny our Father’s wishes?”, but why do you single out the Sabbath from the rest of the Law? Was not all of the Law that God gave Israel His wishes? Doesn’t that include sacrificing a lamb every year? How about the Tithe? Passover?

    (Exo 20:11 NIV) “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
    It is the true Sabbath that God is referring to here. There are only seven days in Gods time. The seventh day never ends, so there are no more days after the Sabbath. Our days, of our time, are not holy to God. All of our days are full of sin; therefore, they cannot be holy to God. The seventh day is just as full of sin as the first.

    You say that I am doing my best to find a reason to not follow the Sabbath, but I am not trying to do anything, other than to do what my Father wants me to do.

    Gal 4:9&10 (KJV) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

    The Sabbath is a special day, why turn ye again? Actually, you are not turning again: just turning.

    Hold on to your hat. I am about to tell you something that will amaze you. You said, “If we follow the first and greatest commandment, then why abolish any of the rest?” Now I like to be as perfectly clear as I can be, so let me say this. I do not follow the first and greatest commandment! I love God, because I love God, not because He commanded me to do so. Our Heavenly Father does not want me to love Him if it is the result of a command. He knows, just as we do, that it would not be a genuine love if it were an obligation. So, though I love Him, it is not because He demanded it.

    You say that I am, “Focused on what you can’t do on the Sabbath day instead of being focused on God himself and what he gave us this day for.” But I am focused on God Himself, not just on a special day. I try to devote everyday to my Father, so I am six times more focused as someone that only devotes one day of the week to Him.

    I capitalize the Sabbath, because it is a proper name. Just as Sunday is capitalized. The dictionary capitalizes the word Sabbath. Looking at it that way, then Tithe, and Baptism should also be capitalized: shouldn’t they?

    I do not know of any churches that start the Sabbath on Saturday. I Googled the question and found thirteen listed as celebrating the Sabbath. I think it means that they hold their service on Saturday. Actually, doesn’t a person have to stay home, in order to practice the Sabbath as Israel was supposed to (Exo 16:29)? If one attends a service, could they really be observing the Sabbath?

    The Ark of God’s testament is symbolic of Jesus, so it seems to me to say that when we look into the real temple of God, we will see Jesus. The life of Jesus testifies to the way of God and God’s way is right.

  63. creationwitness says:


    I am not attempting to teach you the law. I am trying to show you what should be written in your heart.

    Yes, given before the ten commandments and then together with them. Does that not tell you the importance?

    Working on the Sabbath is not necessary with faith. You will have what you need for that day so you can relax and dedicate the day to Christ.

    The old testament law was a physical law. The new covenant should be written in you heart and followed with faith. We don’t break the law, not any of it. Sacrifice has been taken away. Christ was the last sacrifice as many of the other ordinances given for men without faith.

    Galatians is speaking of the pagan holidays. Read it again. The old testament was never followed especially the Sabbath. How could one turn back to it?

    Yes, you follow that with faith not commandment. If you follow that why deny any of the rest? Do you go out and commit murder etc? Of course not. You have actually quoted murdering innocents as against the law. Why quote if you do not follow?

    I am focused on God as you are, but I cannot devote an entire day to him on any other but Sabbath.

    The first churches in the new testament were not like the churches we have today. They were observed in peoples homes. In the old testament it is very clear God was not happy with Israel for the breaking Sabbath. Ask yourself why this is.

    The ark of the testament is the original and ongoing covenant with Christ. It is now spiritual.

  64. astudent says:


    Please, let me tell you just what is written in my heart.

    My God, my Father, loves me, and He has shown me, that if it were possible for Him to die, He would have died for me. That is how much He loves me. Because it is not possible for God to die, He sent His one and only son, to show how much love He has for me. Because Jesus is the perfect imagine of our Father, and therefore loves me just as our Father does, and it was possible for him to die, he did die for me. Because of this, there is no need for anything else, except to love my neighbor as myself.

    You admit that God gave the Sabbath Law to Israel when you said, “Yes, given before the ten commandments and then together with them.” So you know that the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law. When you teach the importance of the Sabbath, you are indeed teaching Old Testament Law.

    Stop looking at only the verses of Scripture that support your ideas and look at all Scripture.

    Gal 3:2 (NIV) “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?” (Observing the Sabbath)

    Gal 3:10 (NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” (You cannot pick and choose part of the Law to obey, such as just the Sabbath)

    Gal 3:12 (NIV) “The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” (Or rather, and also, die by them)

    Gal 3:13 (NIV) “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” (So we are redeemed from the Sabbath)

    Gal 3:18 (NIV) “For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.”

    Gal 3:19 (NIV) “What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.” (The Seed has come, and gone, and the law has served its purpose. That is why it is said “until”)

    Gal 3:21 (NIV) “Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.” (So righteousness does not come by observing the Sabbath)

    Gal 3:24&25 (NIV) So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. (We are not condemned or exulted if we do not practice the Sabbath as God told the Israelites to do) (It was only the Israelites that were told to practice the Sabbath – read Exodus 31:16 & 17, even though it does not support your ideas)

    Gal 5:1 (NIV) “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” (The Law is that yoke of slavery, which the Sabbath is part of)
    Gal 5:4 (NIV) “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” (If I were you, I would pay special attention to this verse)

    The Sabbath was important to Israel, but we are no longer under the supervision of the Law (Gal 3:25), which includes the Sabbath.

    You say, “Galatians is speaking of the pagan holidays. Read it again.” Well, take your own advice and read it again. It was written to the churches in Galatia to warn them about Jews that were trying to get them to turn back to the Old Testament law. That is the only subject of the complete book. It says nothing about pagan gods or pagan holidays. Look how many times the word “law” is used and how many times the word “pagan” is used in the book of Galatians.

    You are also wrong when you say that the Old Testament was never followed, if you mean the Law. Jesus followed it perfectly.

    You say, “Yes, you follow that with faith not commandment. If you follow that why deny any of the rest?” I am not denying the Law I am only echoing the Bible, “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”(Gal 3:25) That includes the Sabbath.

    You say, “I am focused on God as you are, but I cannot devote an entire day to him on any other but Sabbath.” God lives in us every day and we should strive to devote every day to Him. If I were to try to devote a day perfectly to Him, allowing no distractions what so ever, I would fail in the first two minutes. My own mind would betray me and my thoughts would wonder. I have found my mind wondering at the beginning of Communion after only minutes. A whole day is completely out of the question for me, or anyone else, for that matter.

    God was not happy with Israel, because they had no faith in Him and Israel could not have been saved even if they obeyed the Sabbath, or any of the Law (Gal 3:10).

    God said that if iron could sharpen iron, then man could sharpen man, so, I cannot sharpen you, only He can. However, even He cannot, if you do not try to understand. Satan would have us believe that, if we only followed the Law, we would be saved, because the Law only condemns, and he would accomplish his goals. We are not saved by attempting to obey the Sabbath. We are saved by Jesus Christ and that is the only thing we should be teaching. Teaching the importance of the Sabbath, which cannot save, only takes time away from exulting Jesus: who can save.

  65. creationwitness says:


    It would be a shame if you are censoring me, but that is your choice. I did warn you about people eventually shutting me off very early in my comments.

    Gal 3:2 (NIV) “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?” (Observing the Sabbath)

    Why do you choose only Sabbath out of the law?

    Gal 3:10 (NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” (You cannot pick and choose part of the Law to obey, such as just the Sabbath)

    I do not pick just the Sabbath to obey. I obey every commandment. I have no choice. It is written in my heart to do so.

    Gal 3:12 (NIV) “The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” (Or rather, and also, die by them)

    That is your addition.

    Gal 3:13 (NIV) “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” (So we are redeemed from the Sabbath)

    It is not me that is identifying the Sabbath out of the law, but if it is true what you say, then we are redeemed from the whole law. Does that mean that we can worship idols? I do not understand your thinking.

    Gal 3:18 (NIV) “For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.”

    Gal 3:19 (NIV) “What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.” (The Seed has come, and gone, and the law has served its purpose. That is why it is said “until”)

    Yes, you are correct. So do you go out and commit murder? I still have no understanding of your thinking.

    Gal 3:21 (NIV) “Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.” (So righteousness does not come by observing the Sabbath)

    Do any of the other nine commandments need to be observed? You again single out the Sabbath, not me. I only point out that the law has not been done away with. It is now stored in one’s heart or at least let us hope so.

    Gal 3:24&25 (NIV) So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. (We are not condemned or exulted if we do not practice the Sabbath as God told the Israelites to do) (It was only the Israelites that were told to practice the Sabbath – read Exodus 31:16 & 17, even though it does not support your ideas)

    So you still do not consider yourself to be grafted into the spiritual family of Israel? My ideas? They are not mine. They are clearly written by God.

    Gal 5:1 (NIV) “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” (The Law is that yoke of slavery, which the Sabbath is part of)

    The yoke of slavery is sin. Not the law. The law was the schoolmaster teaching the sin. Once learned a person graduates or at least let us hope so.

    “Gal 5:4 (NIV) “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” (If I were you, I would pay special attention to this verse)”

    I am not attempting to be justified by the law. I do not need to be. It is clearly written in my heart. I live by every word of God. I do not change or add to anything he has said. Sabbath has been trashed? Where is that written? Have any of the ten been trashed? I find myself laughing at this thought.

    “The Sabbath was important to Israel, but we are no longer under the supervision of the Law (Gal 3:25), which includes the Sabbath.”

    The Sabbath was not important enough to Israel, neither was any other of the law. Scripture says so over and over. Do I need quote?

    “You say, “Galatians is speaking of the pagan holidays. Read it again.” Well, take your own advice and read it again. It was written to the churches in Galatia to warn them about Jews that were trying to get them to turn back to the Old Testament law. That is the only subject of the complete book. It says nothing about pagan gods or pagan holidays. Look how many times the word “law” is used and how many times the word “pagan” is used in the book of Galatians.”

    Yes, the Galatians were pagans (heathen) and had never followed Jewish law unless they had been proselytes. Was Paul preaching to the circumcision to the proselytes?

    4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them
    which by nature are no gods.
    4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of
    God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,
    whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
    4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

    “You are also wrong when you say that the Old Testament was never followed, if you mean the Law. Jesus followed it perfectly.”

    Correct. I am wrong. I should have said the Old Testament Jews rarely followed the law, but I something tells me you knew this.

    “You say, “Yes, you follow that with faith not commandment. If you follow that why deny any of the rest?” I am not denying the Law I am only echoing the Bible, “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”(Gal 3:25) That includes the Sabbath.”

    When a person has learned something well, they no longer need supervision (the schoolmaster). If you are not denying the law, then you have learned the law. All ten commandments at least.

    “You say, “I am focused on God as you are, but I cannot devote an entire day to him on any other but Sabbath.” God lives in us every day and we should strive to devote every day to Him. If I were to try to devote a day perfectly to Him, allowing no distractions what so ever, I would fail in the first two minutes. My own mind would betray me and my thoughts would wonder. I have found my mind wondering at the beginning of Communion after only minutes. A whole day is completely out of the question for me, or anyone else, for that matter.”

    Now I am beginning to understand your disobedience. You have given up before you have tried.

    “God was not happy with Israel, because they had no faith in Him and Israel could not have been saved even if they obeyed the Sabbath, or any of the Law (Gal 3:10).”

    Very correct and I totally agree.

    5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the
    flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot
    do the things that ye would.
    5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
    Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
    seditions, heresies,
    5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the
    which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that
    they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
    gentleness, goodness, faith,
    5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the
    affections and lusts.
    5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another,
    envying one another.

    I detect anger, frustration, disgust or something in your words. What is it astudent?

  66. creationwitness says:

    The ultimate question I have is this: Do you intentionally break any of the ten commandments besides Sabbath? This time I single it out because I know it is one you break. So, any of the others?

  67. astudent says:


    I do not mean to censor you, anymore than you mean to censor me. We disagree about our understanding of Scripture and if it seems as though I am finding fault with your understanding, it is to explain my understanding. At times, it may seem harsh, but could we really have an honest exchange of ideas, if we could not say what we feel in our hearts?

    I am concentrating on the Sabbath, because you brought it up. You are almost correct when you say that I intentionally break the Sabbath. Actually, as I said, I do not believe the Sabbath was given to me, as I am not of Israel. Just as Jesus said to Zaacchaeus, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.” (Luke 19:9&10 NIV).

    I am a son of Abraham, not a son of Jacob: who was renamed Israel. It is true that Jacob was a son of Abraham, through Isaac, but I did not come through Isaac or Jacob. I am called a son of Abraham, because I was born of faith, not by a line of earthly ancestry. Abraham was the first of the line of faith. It was not Jacob. If you think that it is clearly written, by God, that I am grafted into the spiritual family of Israel, then tell me where.

    It is clearly written that those of faith are of the spiritual family of Abraham, but not all of Israel are sons of Abraham, Rom 9:6-8 (NIV). It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.”

    Because we are studying the Sabbath, it has become clear to me that the Sabbath is basically different from the other commandments. All of the other commandments fall under the two greatest commandments. That is to say, that if one obeys the greatest commandments all of the other commandments will be automatically complied with. However, the Sabbath is different. No one is hurt if the Sabbath is not obeyed.

    I am not, in the least, afraid of working on the Sabbath. If I would be condemned for working on the Sabbath, then so would the disciples of Jesus (Mark 2:23-28) and the invalid that picked up his mat and went home, when Jesus healed him on the Sabbath (John 5:1-16).

    Now, consider John 5:17&18 (NIV) Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”

    Has God entered His rest yet? If you obey the Sabbath, because God entered His rest on the Sabbath and He has not entered His rest, then what is it that you do? Jesus had no sin and yet he did not obey the Sabbath, so there is no sin if one does not observe the Sabbath.

    Rom_4:16 (NIV) Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
    Rom 4:17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
    Rom 4:18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
    Rom 9:8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
    Gal 3:7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
    Gal 3:8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
    Gal 3:9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

    I see many verses that say Abraham is the father of all believers, but none that say Israel is the father.

    Deu 28:58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your God—
    Deu 28:59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses.
    Deu 28:60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you.
    Deu 28:61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed.

    Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
    Gal 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
    Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

    The Law, that was written in the Book of Law, was in effect until Israel was destroyed and Israel was destroyed. Again, I say that the Law was given to Israel, not to gentiles.

    Gal 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    This is the Law that I attempt to follow, ‘Love my neighbor as I love myself’. As Scripture says and I agree with, the entire Law is summed up in this command. That would include the Sabbath.

    The same command that Jesus, our Lord and Savior, gave to us is the same given to Israel and if it sums up the Law today, then it seems logical to assume it sums up the Written Law of the Old Testament.

    Rom 9:30-33 (NIV) What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

    The stone that causes men to stumble, spoken of in verse 33, is the Law, not sin. Sin has been in existence as long as man has. Adam and Eve were sinners before they ate the forbidden fruit, but they were not aware of it.

    Zion was the City of David (2 Sam 5:7) and that was where the stone was laid. It causes men to stumble, because it cannot be obeyed and it causes men to fall, because it is what we must be saved from and only Jesus can do that; not the Law.

    One who believes there is something more, than the work of Jesus, that must be accomplished, is declaring that we must add to his work.

    You are very observant. I am frustrated that I cannot explain my understanding, which is very clear to me, but I cannot explain it to you. It is my frustration, and my fault, that I am frustrated, because Scripture has explained to me that it is not possible for a man to sharpen another and yet I just keep trying! Perhaps I am not so smart.

    Now that I am laughing at myself, let me ask you an ultimate question. Do you think Jesus intentionally broke any of the Ten Commandments besides the Sabbath? I single it out because we know it is one he broke (Mat 12:9-13, Mark 3:1-5, Luke 6:6-10, 13:10-17, 14:1-5, John 5:9-18, and 9:1-14). So, any of the others?

  68. creationwitness says:


    I agree that we need to be able to express our ideas. The truth in scripture may be much more than we think and there is no better way to find it than to seek it.

    Truly only God is father of the faithful, but scripture is to be interpreted as you have done. Abraham a spiritual father, but other scripture does not exclude Isaac and Israel and so I don’t either. I understand why you want to distance yourself from the children of Israel because that voids Sabbath for you. But all of the ten commandments were given to them and us. For Israel it was a stumblingstone and to us a schoolmaster (guardian). Because Israel did not follow the law by faith, they stumbled. Paul clearly states this in Romans 9 and this is my entire point. We follow the law by faith. Not carnally as you rightly know it should not be.

    Concerning the Sabbath commandment being different than the other nine is absolutely correct. This is one of the reasons some follow Sabbath and some don’t. You have stated “However, the Sabbath is different. No one is hurt if the Sabbath is not obeyed.” To this I have to disagree. First the Sabbath wasn’t just given to the children of Israel. Jesus states that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Made for man I think clears any of that mystery up. Second, if the first is true then maybe you are not only hurting God by not obeying, but also yourself and even your neighbor?

    Jesus or his disciples never broke Sabbath. Your claim is the same as the pharisees. It is a carnal mind that thinks this way. Jesus came to fulfill the law not take it away. I have quoted you enough times on this, but each time you give other scripture and deny what I have quoted.

    So I will say ask you clear. If Jesus said none of the law would pass until the end, how is it that you discard it? Please don’t change what Paul said either. Paul never claimed that the law has been done away with only that it is about to pass. We won’t or don’t need the schoolmaster, because we have learned from the schoolmaster. We have graduated or should have by now.

    I believe your contention with following Sabbath is a carnal one. You don’t believe that it is included in the law even though your Father clearly says it is. I keep asking myself why and so I must ask you why, why, why?

    Now one other point is as you suggested the Sabbath seems peculiar set with the other nine commandments. I do not take this lightly saying to myself it is because it is to be done away with. I find importance in it and all other statements about it to be significant. Sabbath is mentioned all too many times throughout scripture to not notice God has placed quite a bit of emphasis on it. I personally think this is because God knew how badly it would be broken and misunderstood and wanted us to study it thoroughly.

    The entire law summation being love your neighbor is the same as love God with all of your heart, mind and strength. If you love your neighbor, God knows you loved him first. Because if you didn’t love him first, you would never love your neighbor. All of the law can be equated this way. You agree with this when you said “That would include the Sabbath”.

    Jesus never broke Sabbath and I answered your other questions. Now please answer mine and do not evade them by asking another question. Do you break any other commandment other than Sabbath?

    astudent, I ask you this question not expecting an answer. The question is asked so as to open up your eyes. Yes, your eyes are shut and it seems you do not want to open them. Nothing in what Paul wrote ever said the commandments have been discarded. It is only the means by which they were followed and that would be carnally. You can obey the law without adding to it or taking from it.

    Obeying God’s law shows that one obeys God which shows our love of God. Why be disobedient? Look at the law as a spiritual truth with all righteousness and leave it at that.

  69. creationwitness says:


    Regarding iron sharpening iron I invite you to take a different view.

    Read Proverbs 27:17 and take it for exactly how it is written. God did not ask us to question if iron can be sharpened with iron, but even you agree that it can be if one piece is harder than the other. God did not ask us to assume both pieces were of the same hardness.

  70. creationwitness says:


    Out of curiosity and thinking about my understanding on future events happening after the renewal of the earth, I wonder if you could tell me yours? Have you formulated and ideas on this? It is not necessary to quote scripture unless you want to. Events or ideas such as:

    1. What will Jesus Christ do next?
    2. Is time finished?
    3. What will you be doing?
    4. Who will Christ save? Who will he discard?
    5. Will any non-believers be saved? The unbaptized.

    When I get curious about something, I try to formulate my own opinion before searching out what others think. I get myself in trouble as I know you do as well for doing this, but I have always taken the don’t trust in man and prove everything statements to heart.

    If this is a somewhat private issue with you, I will understand.

  71. creationwitness says:


    Sorry. I am probably inundating you with thoughts.

    Listening to a sermon containing some scientific data on our brains and how they differ from child to adult, the minister brought up Genesis 18: 17-19. This in turn started me thinking about the word command in verse 19 which of course ends up being the same as commandment. This in turn leads me to the thought of how I define the words command and law in my mind.

    I think most people will have a similar distaste for the two words, but I don’t know if that is true. When reaching my teen years I found both to be a kind of abomination. I didn’t like anyone giving me commandments and the laws like rules were to be broken if I thought I could get away with it and it actually commenced prior to puberty, but around puberty it became an issue with me and police, teachers, etc.,

    My point here is that I checked the two words in concordance thinking about child rearing like verse 19 and now understand the two words a bit differently. My definitions over the years have slowly changed to ones more like teaching and righteous authority rather than rules and tyrannical authority.

    This also leads me closer in thought to what you said about Abraham. This doesn’t lead me away from Israel because I think I define Israel a bit different than you. I see Israel as the children or family that we are graffed (KJV) into. Abraham is certainly the father and Isaac the son, both emulating God and Son.

    I thought this might help you to understand why our views seems to differ. It may be caused by our own definitions of words. A teaching in my mind is far superior than a command or rule. I think God’s definition is very different than man’s.

    This may also help you to understand why I now just obey. Of course I still question and I believe that is what God wants us to do. He wants us to learn for ourselves what is right and what is wrong so he doesn’t have to keep looking over his shoulder to make sure we are following him or have gone astray and hence his teaching us faith in Him so that we can understand that he does place faith in us. If he had no faith in us, we wouldn’t be here right now.

    All of this also helps me to explain to people that ask “Why doesn’t God show himself to us?” type questions. It leads back to faith and of course he does present himself daily, but most don’t see the signs. Here I like the word signs because the Sabbath is a Exodus 31:13 “sign between me and you”. I find this quite important because I never saw or heard so many signs until I started to rest properly.

    Now I see them daily. God certainly gives me enough spiritual food throughout the week to make my rest a true blessing.

    I hope you understand me better now.

    I do not want to lose you as my brother/fellow student/teacher/friend/neighbor etc., and frequent adversary:) and so I point these things out. Understanding our neighbor leads to being able to love them and a pure language we do not possess yet.

  72. creationwitness says:

    Yes, it is me once more. Hard to shut off my brain at times.

    What you said about Abraham has enlightened me to no end (in sight). It helps me to explain the commandments (teachings). Many have questions as to why God passed the sentence of the death penalty, exclusion from the people or other.

    We have the choice to follow the law. Israel had the choice as well and when certain commandments were broken a physical death penalty was imposed upon the flesh body.

    Like Abraham, if we follow in faith we do not need the law. We just obey as Abraham did. That is a pretty difficult thing to do seeing Abraham was told (commanded) to sacrifice Isaac. Well, I doubt many of us just obey as Abraham did. Most of us disobey or at least have question and I think questioning is healthy. Without questioning, we and proper understanding we may be found disobedient.

    I am not saying this just about the Sabbath. Do not take me wrong. We need to question everything we are learning. You will notice that all along I have been saying that we should just follow in faith knowing what we are learning is right, but we don’t always do that because sometimes it seems questionable “Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ….and offer him there for a burnt offering”. Because it seems unreasonable even as “love thy neighbor” or “love your enemies” seems unreasonable when we first learn it.

    This I will say about the Sabbath. It is somewhat similar to trying to prove to an atheist that God exists. The atheist can’t find God because he doesn’t believe. The reason for Sabbath also can’t be found without belief.

    You said you would have difficulty keeping your mind from wandering on the Sabbath. This of course is a problem for all of us. When I first started observing Sabbath I was going crazy thinking about all of the things I could be doing. I even wanted to sweep my bedroom floor or wash clothes or anything to occupy my mind, but then I thought to myself “why didn’t I sweep and wash my clothes yesterday” Why did I have the urge to do it on Sabbath. That’s when it struck me. God wants us to rest to keep our mind on Him for one day out of the week. A dedicated meeting with him not to be interrupted with the mundane (cooking, cleaning etc.) It was here that Jesus pointed out a few of our fleshly mistakes. What you are hungry? You didn’t have time to prepare? Then cook something, eat. Take your mind off hunger and put it back on God. You have pain? Let me heal you this day so that you can focus on your Father rather than your pain. That is why I said “Jesus never broke the Sabbath”. The Sabbath rules as all others were put in place for the purpose of teaching. It is not that we can’t do anything on the Sabbath. It is that we shouldn’t do anything but focus on God. When we lose focus and we all do, then we re-focus. It becomes easier each time.

    I think what I am saying is you need to prove it to yourself and not just by trying to prove it wrong through scripture which you read in the flesh. Put your flesh to the test. I know what you will find because God knows and I proved him correct.

    Thanks for at least reading my babble.

  73. creationwitness says:


    Forgive me. I need to bring up the iron thing again.

    I remember you saying iron cannot sharpen iron if both pieces of iron are the same hardness and in one sense that is true. In studying up on the matter one of those pieces of iron can only straighten the other already sharp blade. They can’t remove material from one another. A piece of leather can do the same in stropping the blade as a honing steel does. We have all seen a barber on television stropping his razor.

    But is that what Proverbs 27:17 is saying? I think yes and no. I depends on the situation. If a person is really dull, then no, but if a person needs “straightening out” then yes. In our English vernacular we common call the straighten of a blade sharpening. Could God have foreseen this? Kind of a dumb question:)

    We all know that teaching a spiritual dummy is impossible, but that is not because they are too dumb. It is that we don’t take the time or have enough patience to teach them. With that in mind, saying one person cannot sharpen another could be understood as being disrespectful. We have to look at a kindergarten teacher and from that viewpoint we can sharpen one another. The kindergarten teacher has patience because they love little children. We also need to keep in mind that God has infinite patience too. We need to become more like God.

    So is 27:17 saying the opposite of what is written? I think it says both.

    It is similar to Proverbs 26: 4-5

    26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto
    26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own

    This was a hard understanding at first glance.

  74. creationwitness says:

    Forgot to add:

    27:17 says what it says. How do we know how hard the two pieces of iron are? God says one can sharpen the other so maybe one is harder. But to question it throws a new light on it if both are of the same hardness.

    God is certainly the source of patience. The kindergarten teacher is a good example of the practice.

  75. creationwitness says:


    I would like your quick view on Matthew 10. Do you think this scripture can in any way apply to us in this day and age? If so, do you think Christ’s instruction should still be adhered to?

    Thank you

  76. astudent says:


    Well, I have tried to answer your comments many times. I have just deleted them, before I sent them. God is right “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another”. Thanks for reminding me.

    As for the Sabbath, I can only say that you do not understand it. Examine yourself and your own actions. Do you not see that you acted just like a Pharisee? You did to me just what the Pharisees did to the disciples in Matthew chapter 12. You accused me of doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath. I do not have to answer you as Jesus already answered this accusation.

    Mat 12:7 (NIV) If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

    If you understood the Sabbath, you would understand that I am as innocent as the disciples, but you listen to yourself, instead of Scripture, so you do not understand.

    As for iron sharpening iron, I suggest you buy yourself a knife. No one makes an iron knife, but any knife that you can buy is over 90% iron, so it will do. Along with it, buy a strong magnifying glass, so that you can see the edge clearly. A sharpening stone would also help, because you can use it to quickly and accurately dull the edge of the knife.

    Take the magnifying glass and carefully examine the edge of the knife. Now, take the knife, hold it perpendicular to the stone, and lightly stroke it across the face of the stone. Do not press hard, so that you do not bend the edge. Examine the edge, to confirm it is dull, then go ahead, and try to sharpen it with anything but a stone.

    If you are unwilling to attempt this simple test, then do not try to sound like an expert. An expert is one that knows a great amount about a subject and you are no expert.

  77. creationwitness says:

    Take a dull knife and attempt to cut a ripe tomato. Take the same knife and sharpen “improve” it against another. Now cut the tomato. Sharpen in your eyes is a technical term.

    Sabbath? As I have said I can’t prove it right or wrong to you. Only you can do that. You refuse to do so. No more to say.

  78. astudent says:

    If you are unwilling to attempt this simple test, then do not try to sound like an expert. An expert is one that knows a great amount about a subject and you are no expert.

  79. creationwitness says:


    Maybe you just don’t understand what I have said. I have never called myself an expert. That is a term you have called me. I told you from the very beginning that I was not because I am not.

    My test involves a dull knife on a ripe tomato. When it cannot cut easily, I take another knife or steel to the edge to improve the edge and it certainly cuts through the tomato with greater ease. So what is the proverb really teaching? I say more than one thing. You say it only means one thing and one thing only. That’s ok.

    I don’t need to strain my eyes with a magnifying glass to see the gnat.

  80. astudent says:


    I spent seven years trying to teach everyone what the verse means and I did have even one brother admit that iron could not sharpen iron.

    They all came up with illustrations, or illusions, just as you have.

    I think that some of the comments were lost when WordPress updated their files, but most are still there. If you can admit that you could be wrong, then study all of the comments. You could not possibly spend more time or effort than I have. I considered every comment, as though the other person might be right, and I even physically tested some that I thought might have some merit. However, I did not find a way to sharpen iron with iron.

    Your claim that one can steel a blade sharp is not accurate and it was addressed, and explained, more than once in the comments. I am tired of trying to explain the basics of sharpening to those who do not want to understand.

    I gave you a way to test our disagreement. If you are unwilling to test your own understanding, as well as mine, then you are not willing to learn.

    I am through wasting my time trying to prove God wrong. If I could have convinced, even one brother, that iron cannot sharpen iron, I would have proven myself, and God, wrong.

    As you can see, I am not the brightest light in the room. God gives me the understanding of the verse and darned if I don’t try to prove I can do it!

    The subject was iron sharpening iron, not cutting tomatoes. And the magnifying glass was to see the edge, not gnats.

    I will speak no more on the subject.

  81. creationwitness says:


    Once more I will try and explain. I am not disputing the fact that iron cannot sharpen iron. From my understanding that is technically impossible as is one man sharpening another. Men are not iron. I have no need to prove this to myself because I am not in contention.

    Can one man improve another’s understanding? Does the knife cut through the tomato better after being sharpened “stropped” with a steel?

    I have certainly been led to quicker understanding by many men. Some for good and some for bad. After proving such, it was then my choice to understand or to trash. You too have improved my thoughts and I can say especially so in this case. Proverbs 13:20, Proverbs 22:24-25, Proverbs 29:17. My father being one of my most understanding although sometimes harsh teachers.

    In my eyes Proverbs 27:17 contains more than one teaching. If not in yours, that is ok by me.

    A house cannot stand divided. As Christians we need to walk together.

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