SHOULD A CHRISTIAN CELEBRATE THE FOURTH OF JULY?

I don’t know about you, but I am trying to understand everything in the Bible. Some of the time it has caused me to be at odds to my Christian brothers. I have determined to believe the Bible and it alone so when I find myself at odds I can not stay in the truth and still agree with others. The Forth of July is such a time. Before you begin to throw rocks please hear me out.

 

 Romans 13:1&2 says, (NIV) “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”

 

Ask yourself

  1. Did the Founding Fathers have a governing authority?
  2. Did God establish that authority?
  3. By rebelling against that authority, did the Founding Fathers rebel against what God had instituted?
  4. If we celebrate the Fourth of July aren’t we celebrating rebellion against God?

I hear it said that God gave us this Government, but I don’t understand why He caused the Founding Fathers to rebel against Him to instate it. I also have a hard time understanding why He would want a system of government established where men chose their own authorities. If this is truly a Christian Country then why was it formed in rebellion to God?

It amazes most who think that this is a Christian Country that most of the Founding Fathers lost everything they had, but it does not amaze me (“and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves”).

 I have noticed two things about people in my life. One is people believe what they want to believe and the facts are only there to be twisted to support their beliefs. Number two is, if you say something that is against their beliefs they immediately go into a defensive mode and only consider their own view, which makes it difficult for them to understand an opposing view. Let me apologize in advance for causing anyone to make either of these two errors. (Yes I will try not to make them myself)

I must add that if you think you can convince your pastor of this don’t even try. He is probably wise enough to realize it would divide the congregation and none of us want that. I see the truth, so I do not go to Church around the Fourth and I have found it does little good to try to convince anyone that this country was formed in rebellion to God. Even those I admire the most will not accept it.

18 Responses to SHOULD A CHRISTIAN CELEBRATE THE FOURTH OF JULY?

  1. Anonymous says:

    The Founding Fathers were allowed to rebel by God for a purpose. It might have been to shake the relevant authorities into awareness. Though the authorities were initially established by the Lord, they might have lapsed in their faith and thus it was not wrong for the Founding Fathers to have established this great country.

  2. astudent says:

    Anonymous,
    That is a good comment and it might surprise you, but I agree with your first statement.
    God allowed Israel to rebel also. He told them what would happen if they rejected Him. When the founding fathers rebelled against the king that God appointed they also rebelled against God (Romans 13:2). Because God allowed it does not make it right. God allows all kinds of sin.
    What do you think the reason was? Could it be that we should not be governing our selves and the purpose is to prove it to us? Doesn’t the constant decline of the County affirm this?
    As far as the faith, or lack there of, it doesn’t matter. God established the King of England for His purpose. The Founding Fathers rebelled because they would not pay taxes to the king, not because the King of England’s faith lapsed.
    I don’t mean to sound harsh, but “this great country”? Open your eyes and look around!
    This country is almost as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah! I certainly would not use the phrase “this great country” to describe the USA.

  3. KKairos says:

    So should the people who hid Jews from Hitler have simply submitted and not done so? Or does that not consitute rebellion?

    What constitutes rebellion in your opinion?

    …I realize that’s just a little extreme.

  4. astudent says:

    Kkairos,
    That is a very good question and I like extreme. I use it myself as it is a good way to illustrate what you mean.
    I think every instance that man has to deal with other men can be answered, understood, and properly accomplished by applying the second royal law (Do to others what you would have them do to you).
    If you put yourself in the position of the Jews you would want someone to help you, and if you do the same and put yourself in Hitler’s position, knowing what God will do to those who commit such atrocities, you would want someone to keep you from doing so.
    The situation with the Founding Fathers was quite different than the example you stated.
    If you study the rebellion you will see that the King of England did nothing to the Colonist that was in anyway harsh. He had every right to tax the colonies and when they would not pay, the taxes were all repealed, except for the tax on tea and the colonist used it to start a rebellion before the king could repeal it. It is fashionable to say the King of England was oppressing the Colonist, but you might want to study the rebellion before you accept what is said. And if you are someone other than kkairos don’t let that stop you from studying it either.
    Anyway if you put yourself in the shoes of the Colonist I believe that you can see that they were, as the Bible says, rebelling against God and you would want someone to stop you. The King of England was innocent of anything that would have justified rebellion (test me on this). Though no one likes to pay taxes everyone likes the benefits of doing so and the Bible says to do so.
    Romans 13:6 (in part) says, “the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. I don’t think killing innocent people is part of government responsibilities. Also those who helped the Jews did not grab a gun and war against the government. They disobeyed the government, but they did not rebel against it.
    It was, as I said, a very good question and it is difficult to know when to disobey the government.
    Thanks for the question as it helped me to think about it.

  5. insightfull says:

    Being a mormon, we believe the founding fathers were inspired by God to overthrow the British government and establish the government that the did in order to allow the restoration of his church here on earth. If not for the revolution, the church of England would have been forced upon everyone eventually (which was the reason the colonist left in the first place) and any faiths contrary to that of the Church could not have come into being without some truly awe inspiring event.
    As far as anonymous’s comment about the usa not being a great country. The sins you see portrayed in television and radio, as well as literature come from the group entertainers who do not greatly contribute to society and give glory unto themselves. I think the majority of the people you interact with; I know the majority of the people I encounter, still have some civility about them. But you are right that if something isn’t done soon then all those with impressionable minds will buy into the message of the entertainers and society will deteriorate. Entertainers can and I believe should pay 90% of their income in taxes. Oprah $230 million, take home $23 million; Katy Couric $19 million, take home $1.9 million; NFL players average salary $400,000, take home $40,000. You get the idea. If this happens, income tax can be revoked then I believe wealth will be redistributed across the classes and America will return to the greatness it once enjoyed when the founding fathers first made income tax illegal in the constitution and instead taxed “pleasures”.

  6. astudent says:

    Insightfull,
    It is not hard to understand why we disagree. I said that I have determined to believe the Bible and it alone. That statement comes as a direct result from studying the Bible. It says, (Rev 22:18 NIV) “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.”
    As a Mormon you accept another book which adds to the Bible.
    The first of the three questions that I asked everyone to consider is a fact of the world and doesn’t need the Bible to answer it. The king of England was also the king of the Colonies. The second question answered from the Bible alone is “Yes”, because of Rom 13:1 (NIV) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. The third answer is “Yes”, and one doesn’t have to look very far for the verse that supports it, (Rom 13:2 NIV) Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. The answer to question four is in the same verse.

    You say, “If not for the revolution, the church of England would have been forced upon everyone eventually (which was the reason the colonist left in the first place) and any faiths contrary to that of the Church could not have come into being without some truly awe inspiring event.” That is only conjecture on your part. If the king of England couldn’t even make the Colonies pay taxes I don’t think anyone in England could do much of anything to the Colonist, but that is also conjecture. The point being that one can not make up a possible outcome of a situation and claim it to be true, or the only outcome possible. God has enough power to dictate an outcome without any rebellion on the part of man.
    You said, “then I believe wealth will be redistributed across the classes and America will return to the greatness it once enjoyed when the founding fathers first made income tax illegal in the constitution and instead taxed “pleasures”.
    The Founding Fathers would not pay the tax on tea (A pleasure), how can anyone attempt to justify any tax that is imposed by someone who would not pay the tax themselves?

    God let the revolution happen just as He let Israel have a king, but that doesn’t make the rebels heroes, or rebellion right, which is what we do when we try to justify the formation of this Country.

    I agree with your statement, “The sins you see portrayed in television and radio, as well as literature come from the group entertainers who do not greatly contribute to society and give glory unto themselves.” But the sins portrayed are the sins of society and not the sins of the entertainers themselves (Yes they also sin and sometimes portray their own).
    Do you see that they could not make the money that they make if we didn’t watch? Don’t we sin by watching sin? ((Phil 4:8 NIV) Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things.) There is very little good in entertainment or the news.
    If you don’t want entertainers to make so much money then do your part and don’t watch them. Personally I don’t care how much they make. It’s not money that will solve the problems of this world, it is only God that will, and He will remove sin itself (Yes, money will have to go as well).
    “O” the majority of the people that I interact with now are Christians. That was not always true, but I haven’t forgotten what those who were not Christians did. But the total truth is that we are all sinners; even Christians sin (Even the civil ones): though they do sin less.
    Thanks for your comment. Comments that disagree are worth a thousand that agree and I really like the ones that disagree with me.

  7. astudent says:

    Insightful,
    Thanks for the link. I agree with Mr. Adams almost 100%. However he, along with most citizens seem to think that we are in control and can change things. We are not and we can not.
    Men are flawed and those with the desire to control others will always attempt to do so. Money is a basic way to control others and can be used to raise more to even better control. The main reason one can no longer smoke in this society is the government has put such a tax on it that it can no longer be afforded and if it proves to be inadequate it will be increased. I’m not promoting smoking, just using it as an example. Don’t forget fines when you consider the twisted power of the government. The government fines many companies for violating its rules, but those who are hurt by the violations do not get any of the money!
    Every one seems to ascribe a personality to the country has a whole. Not just any personality but a moral one. It just isn’t so. This country is “of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich” and if you are not one there is no chance you are going to run anything. You would threaten the establishment.
    Mr. Adams says, “What needs to be done to restore our leadership and ranking among free nations? The answer is easier than you may think. We need to go back to our roots, to the ideals and passion for liberty that was the driving force behind the formation of this nation.”
    The driving force, when examined from a neutral prospective, was greed. The Founding Fathers wanted the land that belonged to England and they did not want to pay any taxes at all. The Bible says pay your taxes and obey the king. I don’t see how any one can defend their actions after thinking about them. Nor do I understand how any one can claim that this country was founded on Christian principles. It isn’t Christian to rebel and not pay taxes, even if the taxes are unfair.
    By the way, when the colonies refused to pay the taxes imposed by England those taxes were repealed. The only tax imposed was on tea.
    1770 – In April, the Townshend Acts are repealed by the British. All duties on imports into the colonies are eliminated except for tea. Also, the Quartering Act is not renewed. (From historyplace.com)
    Here is a link for you. Study the American Revolution and see if it was justified in your eyes.
    http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/index.html

  8. Rancid says:

    Are you familiar with the Prohibitory Act of 1775? This was the colonial excuse to move from discontent to rebellion. They believed that the Act showed that they had been abandoned by the King and left to their own. Therefore, no rebellion. Thoughts?

  9. astudent says:

    Rancid,
    Well, that is kind of funny. I think you answered the question yourself. You say the Prohibitory Act was the Colonies excuse to move from discontent to rebellion and then you say, “Therefore, no rebellion”!
    The Parliament of Great Britain passed the Prohibitory Act because,
    1. The colonies were attempting a rebellion against the King and Parliament.
    2. The colonies had created an army and were attacking the King’s soldiers.
    3. The colonies had taken the power of government from Britain.
    These were unlawful acts and if Britain was to hold onto their land and interest they had to do something. Just because the Colonies said they were abandoned doesn’t make it true.
    I have lived long enough to understand that every time someone does anything to me it is always, in some way, my fault: if you listen to them.
    The Colonies were already rebelling and it is as you said, an “excuse”: and a pretty lame one, if you ask me.

  10. Kevin says:

    that is like saying… did the jews have governing authority…..

  11. astudent says:

    Kevin,

    I don’t quite understand your comment, but to answer it as I understand: the Jews did not have governing authority. God appointed the governing authorities. The only part the people played in the government should have been to obey the authorities that God established.

    The dangerous part of being human is God will let us have our way! Even when He knows it will cause problems.

    He allows us to give men the power over our country because we think we know who should lead, but we have usurped His power to choose. Those that are chosen put their own interest before the peoples. That is what men do.

    Only God is quailed to lead us, because only God puts our interest before His own.

  12. Godskid says:

    To the original blogger: I’ve actually heard your opinion before from some church leaders. They felt that Canada got their independence the right way. They waited and eventually, God gave it to them without a fight. These pastors who have this opinion have repented of America’s rebellion and asked God’s forgiveness. I wanted to let you know you are not alone in this opinion.

    However, we do see people fighting against authority in Scripture, especially when conditions are harsh or unfair. At times, God leads them to rebel. For instance, the children of Israel were led to leave Egypt because of the unfair treatment. It was a God-ordained time for their deliverance.

    The question looking back should not be: Did the colonists rebel against authority? The question should be: Where they following the leading of the Spirit by rebelling, or were they following their flesh? The government of England was aligned with the church of England, but from what I understand, both were riddled with corruption and greed. I believe the colonists had true faith in God and acted in faith when they stood up to an unjust government.

    To really answer this question, we should probably look at the original correspondence and diaries of both the English imperialists and the American colonists. Then we must ask God who was in the right. It’s also possible that neither side was completely right–after all, they were all imperfect people.

    Although I disagree with your conclusion, I appreciate your thought-provoking blog. I think you bring up a good point that needs addressing.

  13. astudent says:

    Godskid,
    How could one be following the leading of the Spirit by doing what God said do not do?
    Rom 13:1&2 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

    The founding Fathers had the same New Testament as we do.

    God, Himself was the King of Israel. Moses only told Pharaoh what God would do if he did not release His people. There was no rebellion.

    When men decide for themselves who should rule we end up with authorities that do not even know what an island is. And they have the power to decide what should be!

    We also have elected a Muslim President! We do not know what is in another’s heart, or what he will do in any circumstance. WE ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO CHOOSE ANY LEADER OTHER THAN GOD.

  14. jayzook says:

    Rebelling against authority means to rebel against Jesus Christ’s authority! Not mans!

  15. astudent says:

    You are correct when you say that we should not rebel against Jesus, but Romans 13 uses the words authorities, servants, and their (Plural) and we do not pay taxes to Jesus.

    Also Jesus does not give his full time to governing, nor is he an agent of wrath.

    Rom 13:1-6 (NIV) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
    For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.

  16. You actually make it seem so easy with your presentation but I find this topic to be really something
    which I think I would never understand. It seems too complicated and very broad for
    me. I am looking forward for your next post, I’ll try to get the hang of
    it!

  17. astudent says:

    american founding fathers,

    Well, actually the message is not complicated at all. It is very simple and easy to understand unless one views it from a worldly point of view.

    From the Bible’s (God’s) point of view, most of humanity are not, and will not become Christians. That alone shows democracy will not work, because in a democracy the majority rules.

    This world is only a test (I must write a post about that) and was never meant to be a second heaven. If man could make this world a second heaven, it would test no one. The reason that things are so rotten in this world is because most fail the test. God will not interfere, because it would bias the test.

    The people of the world will not admit there is a God and so they believe there is a way to make this existence a ‘heaven on earth’.

    Because Christians do not understand this and they want peace on earth, they try to change the world. It just is not possible.

    The more faith that one has in a God that knows everything and can do anything, the more one can understand that if God wanted this world changed, and it is not changed, then it is the way things should be. It is hard to accept that a God that loves everyone can let the things that are happening continue. That is one reason that faith is so important.

    That is a depressing message, to the world and the world will not accept it. However, at the same time, it is a message of hope to the Christian, because we understand that we will go to heaven, when this test is over, and then everything will be as it should be.

    I do not believe it wrong to want to change the world, because we must “Do to others, as we would want them to do to us” and we understand that would make things better. However, it is a waste of time. We should be telling others that they are sinners, in need of a Savior, instead of trying to save the world ourselves. We also should be encouraging our brothers, by sharing our understanding, instead of teaching them that they can change this world.

    God will come and change this world when He decides it is time. Until then it will not be changed, no matter how hard we work at it.

    You see it is very simple and you can ‘Get the hang of it’.

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