Suppose Bob was on the beach one day making a raft. He was using vines to lash logs together to make it and he was chewing the vines into, in order to make them the proper length.

John walks by and sees him working at his task. He returns to his home and makes a knife and writes an instruction sheet that explains that he made the knife, what he expected Bob to do with it, and that he would return to reclaim it. John goes back to the beach and lays the knife and the instructions where Bob will find them.

Bob sees both of the items and because he is very intellectual he immediately uses the knife to cut the vines. He finds many uses for the knife other than just cutting vines: some good and some bad.

He begins to wonder where the knife came from and why it was placed where it could be easily found. He knows that the knife didn’t just happen and it couldn’t have made itself.

Bob remembers the instruction sheet and reads part of it, but he doesn’t believe it. So he begins to study the knife and test it. He weighs it, measurers it, subjects it to as many tests as he can think of in order to find out where the knife came from.

Bob discovers many things about the knife, but not who made it, nor why. The answers to those questions are written in the instruction sheet. They are the thoughts of the maker and thoughts of another can not be found in the products of his or her hands.

The same holds true of God. His thoughts can not be found in what He has created: no matter what method, or how one tries. God’s thoughts are in the Bible and the Bible is proved true by the predictions of future events that are, or were, in it.

Those who will not believe and put their faith in the Bible put their faith in many books, none of which are true. If one writes a book on anything in this world in ten years some one will write a book that refutes it. Maybe not completely, but still a claim that part or all is not true: and they will be correct!

When I attended school all matter was made of electrons, protons, and neutrons and they were the smallest particles in the universe. Hum…

Anyway, the thoughts of the Maker are not possible to find in His creation. If you can not even find them you certainly can not prove them by studying His universe.

The wisdom of the world and the wisdom of God are truly different (1 Cor 1:20&21). One can not use either one to prove the other.


  1. literarydeadkittens says:

    Everything IS still made of protons, electrons and neutrons; they’re subatomic particles. The are the parts of the atom; atoms join to make molecules, compounds, macromolecules… Not everything is refuted and a great many things are refined, not rejected.

  2. astudent says:

    In particle physics, the quark (pronounced IPA: /kwɔː(r)k/) is one of the two basic constituents of matter (the other is the lepton). Quarks are the only fundamental particles that interact through all four of the fundamental forces.
    Quarks come in six flavours, and their names (up, down, charm, strange, top, and bottom) were also chosen arbitrarily based on the need to name them something that could be easily remembered and used.
    Antiparticles of quarks are called antiquarks.
    Isolated quarks are never found naturally; they are almost always found in groups of two (mesons) or groups of three (baryons) called hadrons. This is a direct consequence of confinement. (Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia)

    Quarks make up protons and neutrons, which along with electrons, make up atoms. They were not discovered until 1968 (I am no spring chicken).
    Our text books stated that electrons, protons, and neutrons were the smallest particles of matter. Those text books were wrong, which was my point, even if you say the science was refined.

  3. atheistperspective says:

    You make a very good and interesting point. I’m not sure about the analogy though 🙂

    There are indeed many areas of science that are refuted. Not all of course are proved to be wrong but I do get your point. Hypotheses change on a daily basis. Theories, yes, sometimes, I can think of two over the past decade. Laws? I can’t actually think of one that has been refuted, at least not refuted and accepted. I’m not sure about putting faith in a book, faith to me is something completely different, that is, belief in the absence of evidence. But let’s leave that for the moment.

    The point is, you are correct, we should never think we know the facts, that we know the truth. Someone more intelligent, more wise will come along and prove us wrong. And I’m open to that. I’m 30 years old and accept that I know very little. I thought I knew it all at 20, same again at 25. I now realize that I knew nothing 🙂 However, I do know that the most wonderful thing about being human is that I have the ability to change my views and the worst crime I can think of is to be dogmatic and to think one has all the answers. I detest absolutism.

    And here’s my problem with those that believe in God. They believe they have all the answers, that they know personally the creator of the universe, that they know how everyone should lead their lives, that there is nothing, nothing at all that will EVER make them change their minds about their God.

    And that, for me, is truly despicable. I’m an atheist. Give me the right argument and I will change my mind. Ask a Christian what evidence or argument they need to see or hear to make them change their minds. Normally the answer is ‘nothing will ever EVER make me change my belief’.

    Well, that to me is a waste of consciousness. We are all lucky to die because it means we were born. We have have a marvelous opportunity but we waste it the moment we become absolute in our beliefs.

    If I ever tell you that you are evil, or how to live your life because I read it in a book, well, I'[d be more than happy to get a good punch on the nose! But that doesn’t often go both ways does it? I’m sick and tired of being told that I should do this or that or live my life in a certain way because a book says so. (especially when those spouting such nonsense have not even read the book, or have picked the bits that they like)

    I actually couldn’t care less as to whether God exists. I’m somewhat drawn to a kind of deism. What gets me is the stupidity of those relying on a book to tell them how to live their lives and then judging others on the same book. Those people deserve a punch on the nose!

  4. astudent says:

    Well, I have to laugh. We certainly share the same opinion of our selves. You only go to 30 so let me tell you that it continues way past 30. Personally I like it that way. It would be a dull life if there wasn’t something more to learn. I have to admit that my ability to learn assures me (and others) that I will always have something to learn.
    You should have no trouble with me, because I don’t think I know everything. I do believe I know something about the Creator, because He gave us the Bible so that we can know. If you like puzzles you should love the Bible.

    “I do know that the most wonderful thing about being human is that I have the ability to change my views and the worst crime I can think of is to be dogmatic and to think one has all the answers. I detest absolutism.”
    Good you have the ability to change your mind and so do I. No one on either side of the argument, if they are truthful, can say they have all of the answers.
    It seems to me that neither of us “want” to change our minds. I don’t want to because I have been promised a wonderful life that will last forever and you, because if the God of the Bible is true face the opposite. Both of us must face death, so one of us is right and one of us is wrong and death will prove who. (sorry, but that is absolute)
    If I am wrong it will not matter. I go to sleep every night and I don’t know what is going on in the world. It just doesn’t matter as long as I am asleep: after I wake up it sometimes does.
    Don’t you see that the question of whether there is a God or not is the most important question anyone can ask themselves?
    I wonder what argument would make you change your mind. It seems that you have limited the arguments somewhat. You don’t believe there is a God and you refuse to believe the Bible is His instructions. How could anyone convince you there is?
    The Bible does tell us how to live our lives and I don’t think anyone can disagree with it. All of the law hinges on this command, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. Can you see there would be no murders, thieves, lies, or anything else that would cause problems? Whether or not you choose to believe in God, can you say this would not be the best way for everyone to live?

    “Give me the right argument and I will change my mind.” What is the right argument? I would give most of what I have if you would change your mind! I believe in ‘do unto others’ and if I was in your shoes I would want the same for myself. If taking a punch in the nose will convince you I’ll take it!

    I must thank you. Comments that disagree with me always make me think (yes, I could be wrong and one must consider that first) and this time I believe I have found why it is so important for an unbeliever to think that a believer is wrong.

    “O”, by the way, the question of whether or not there is a God can only be answered “in the absence of evidence”: no matter which way you choose to answer it (if you mean concrete evidence). Evidence is only that and not proof. There is evidence to support the Bible.

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