I AM A HERETIC!

her•e•tic (hµr“¹-t¹k) n. 1. A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. (The American Heritage Dictionary)

Actually, I am a complete heretic as I not only do not accept the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, I do not accept the dogma of any Church that I have or do attend!

1. The Tithe – Every Church that I have attended taught that the Israelites in the Old Testament were to give ten percent back to God every year. That is totally false and a study of tithing, using only God’s Word and not anyone else’s word will prove me correct.

2. The Trinity – Then there is The Trinity. God says over and over that there is only one God. Men, who do not yet understand the Word of God, and do not admit they do not yet understand, have invented a way to say there are actually three Gods! It is true that the concept can be argued, but not if you believe the Word of God, when it/He says there is only one God.

(Isa 43:10-11 NIV) “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
(Isa 43:15 NIV) I am the LORD, your Holy One, Israel’s Creator, your King.”
(Isa 45:21 NIV) Declare what is to be, present it– let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

3. Prayer – Scripture says do not pray in public, but I am surrounded with people that pray in public! They seem to think that they know more than God! They do not realize that praying, when done properly, is really listening to God, not talking to Him! It is a conversation with God and we should listen much more than speak. Public praise for God is certainly correct and should always be done, but that is praise and should be called what it is and not called prayer.

4. Country – I live in the United States. Almost all of my Christian brothers and sisters believe that we must determine the best candidate and vote him or her into office or the Country is lost! God says that He is in control of the kingdoms (governments) of this world and that He sets over them the lowliest of men (Dan 4:17 & Rom 13:1). My brothers do not believe God!

5. Teachers – God says we should not be called teacher (Mat 23:10), but every preacher claims to be one. The flock listens to the preacher, but no one understands everything and so the flock is led astray.

6. Baptism – There are those that say baptism is not necessary for salvation! I would ask the same question Jesus asked “baptism—where did it come from?”

7. Vows and pledges – God says it is better not to make a vow (Deu 23:21-23, Eccl 5:4&5), but my brothers say that we should make vows to give money to the Church!

8. Iron sharpens iron – Only a Christian with no understanding of the art of sharpening would say that iron sharpens iron. They would be laughed out of any place where swords are sharpened. By the way, I spent seven years trying to teach that iron does not sharpen iron and was not successful one time, so do not try to convince me that it can, because I will not respond. I will remove any comment that tries to, so that the error is not spread. At least not by me.

9. Politics – same as Country, God is in charge and for me to vote would prove, by my actions, that I did not believe Him. I do believe my Father, therefore I will not vote.

10. Church – My brothers and sisters place their faith in church, but the church is only people, not God. The church can save no one. Only God can save.

11. Understanding – (Prov 4:7 NIV) Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
Understanding is not given from the mouth of a man. (Prov 2:6 NIV) For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

We were given the Holy Spirit when we were baptized to teach us all things (1 John 2:27- John 14:26). God speaks to us through Scripture, not through man.

Yes, I am only a man, but I am not saying that I have the answers. I have only questions, but if you consider my statements, using Scripture, not man, to guide you. You will sound just like me.

Do what God says (Prov 2:1-6 NIV) My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God. For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

I wish there were more heretics in this world.

79 Responses to I AM A HERETIC!

  1. ese okposio says:

    I find the presentation interesting. I will make my comments on Tithes
    1. Tithe
    When Jacob gave tithe to God in Genesis 28:22, it was VOLUNTARILY done. The case of Abraham giving tithe to Melchizedek, the high priest was also voluntary. All these happened before the laws that govern the levitical priesthood was given. The tithe they gave at that time in question was not weekly, monthly or yearly!
    Now let us discuss Malachi 3:8-10. This passage is wrongly interpreted to mean that the Lord of Hosts was speaking to the people of Israel and hence believers or Christians want to appropriate this to themselves. The fact is that the Lord was speaking to the priests. If you read chapter 18 of Numbers, one tenth of the tithes was to be given to the priests for an offering to the Lord. Malachi 1:14 shows the priest robbed God of the offering. If you read Nehemiah 13, you will be informed of Eliashib, the priest giving Tobiah what was meant for the levites. Here the priest robbed God of the tithes. It is clear from the above that God was addressing the priests and not the people of Israel. Then what should believers and Christians do as regards tithes?
    Let us study a verse that states clearly that laws on tithes and all regulations governing levitical priesthood have been annulled. Read Heb 7:12; it states, for the priesthood, being changed, there is made of necessity a change also in the law. You may also read Heb 7:18. How are we to GIVE in this present era or dispensation? Let us read Paul’s letter to the Corinthians(2 cor 9:7)- Everyman according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity. For God loveth a cheerful giver. In this dispensation your giving is not under any rule or law. No percentage is tied to your giving!

  2. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    You are correct when you say Jacob and Abraham voluntarily gave a tenth to God. However, I think that you are confusing the Tithe with a tenth.

    The Tithe as described in Leviticus was for all Israel to obey (Lev 27:30-34), not for just a Levitical Priesthood to obey. It was a ritual not a command to give a tenth. The concept of the tenth was only to determine what God kept for Himself: God never gave the tenth to Israel, in order for them to give it back. They could not voluntarily or involuntarily give it back, because it was not theirs to give.

    The Tithe was a yearly ritual for all Israel to obey. The first two years, all that God kept for Himself, was blown on a banquet in His honor. It was to be taken to the place that He designated and consumed there (Deu 12:11-18, 14:22-26). The third year it was to be stored in their towns, so that the Levites, aliens, fatherless, and widows would have something to eat (Deu 14:28&29).

    Though it is possible for anyone to give God ten percent of what He has loaned to them (we own nothing, it still belongs to God and will be here after we leave), it is not possible to Tithe, because God has not designated a place for the banquet. At least it is not possible for me as I do not know where.

    God certainly was speaking to the people of Israel in Malachi 3:8-10. He says plainly (Mal 3:9 NIV) “You are under a curse–the whole nation of you–because you are robbing me.” If He was only speaking to the priest He would not have said “the whole nation of you”. The whole nation was supposed to tithe. The priests did not have herds and did not grow crops, so they could not tithe from the land. Their tithes came from a tenth of the tithes that all of Israel brought to be stored in their towns every three years.

    God was not speaking to priests in Malachi 1:14 as priests did not have flocks. He began to address priests in 2:1.

    As for Nehemiah 13, Eliashib did not give Tobiah anything. He let him live in a large room formerly used to store the tithes. Tobiah was an Ammonite (Neh 4:3) and no Ammonite was supposed to be admitted into the Assembly of God (Neh 13:1). The evil thing Eliashib had done was providing Tobiah a room in the courts of the house of God (Neh 13:7). It had nothing to do with Tithing.

    After all of this I see agreement between us. I agree that we are not under the law of the Tithe. I am not Jewish and as far as I know I am not descended from Israel. The Tithing ritual was given to Israel and not to gentiles, so I have never been required to Tithe.

    I changed localities lately and so changed the church that I regularly attended. I gave more than a tithe; until it was implied that I should Tithe. So, I did what was required of me. It was a loss for both me and the church. I lost the joy of giving and the church lost the extra money.

    What really burns me up is that those who are the leaders do not encourage the flock to study Tithing. They use a convoluted, twisted, and untrue teaching to raise money. The flock know nothing about the Tithing banquet. Tithing was a wonderful ritual that showed the love of God, but now it is used it to serve money.

    If I were to really tithe, as in the Old Testament, I would only give a tenth every third year. I bet those who are in authority would be quick to try to stop me from tithing!

  3. ese okposio says:

    Yes I agree with you, Eliashib only gave out the rooms. My statement was wrong and did not convey my thoughts and understanding as I intended.
    However, my dear friend, I like the discussion and I believe you have read Nehemiah 13, to know that the room contained grain offerings, wine, olive oil, tithes of grain, meat and several other things meant for the Levites. It was the action of the priest in giving out the chamber(room) that led to portion due to Levites not being given to them.

    As for tenths and tithes -I have checked NIV, ASV, KJV, Douay-Rheims and Complete Jewish Bible- and found out these terms are used interchangeably. They mean the same thing: Let us take Numbers 18:21-26 as reference:
    NIV-Tithe, KJV-Tenth, CJB- Tenth, Douay-Rheims-Tithe, ASV-Tenth.

    As for Malachi 3: 8-10; it is to the priests. You need to be mindful of the translations of the Bible. In an attempt to simplify from the original tongues a lot of have lost the meanings! Let us take Malachi 3:9 and see the American Standard Version(ASV): Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. KJV states: Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. AMP states: You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, this whole nation.
    The action of the priests not only robbed God but the whole nation.

    Yes the tithe was for all Israel to obey as mentioned in Leviticus 27: 30-34. However, I want us to take a step further on how this process was carried out. Who gives, who receives? Let us state Number18: 26 and 28
    Numbers 18:26- Thus speak unto the Levites and say to them, when ye take of the children of Israel tithes, which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall OFFER an HEAVE OFFERING of it to the Lord even a TENTH PART OF THE TITHE.

    The Levites received from Children of Israel and gave to the Lord? Who did they really give? They gave heave offering to the priest. See Numbers 18:28: Thus ye shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithe, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lord’s heave offering to Aaron the priest You may read the whole Numbers 18:21-28.

    However, like I mentioned earlier, Giving, Offering was already being done but it was voluntary and not by a rule or regulation as was the case during the time of the Levitical Priesthood.
    Continue to give as you desire in your spirit, no percentage to your income, give joyfully. It may be your time, it may be material, it does not necessarily have to be money all the time!
    If you do not mind, I will advise you get the Hebrew-Greek Study Bible(KJV) and also Amplified Bible

  4. ese okposio says:

    Yes I agree with you, Eliashib only gave out the rooms. My statement was wrong and did not convey my thoughts and understanding as I intended.
    However, my dear friend, I like the discussion and I believe you have read Nehemiah 13, to know that the room contained grain offerings, wine, olive oil, tithes of grain, meat and several other things meant for the Levites. It was the action of the priest in giving out the chamber(room) that led to portion due to Levites not being given to them.

    As for tenths and tithes -I have checked NIV, ASV, KJV, Douay-Rheims and Complete Jewish Bible- and found out these terms are used interchangeably. They mean the same thing: Let us take Numbers 18:21-26 as reference:
    NIV-Tithe, KJV-Tenth, CJB- Tenth, Douay-Rheims-Tithe, ASV-Tenth.

    As for Malachi 3: 8-10; it is to the priests. You need to be mindful of the translations of the Bible. In an attempt to simplify from the original tongues a lot of have lost the meanings! Let us take Malachi 3:9 and see the American Standard Version(ASV): Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. KJV states: Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. AMP states: You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, this whole nation.
    The action of the priests not only robbed God but the whole nation.

    Yes the tithe was for all Israel to obey as mentioned in Leviticus 27: 30-34. However, I want us to take a step further on how this process was carried out. Who gives, who receives? Let us state Number18: 26 and 28
    Numbers 18:26- Thus speak unto the Levites and say to them, when ye take of the children of Israel tithes, which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall OFFER an HEAVE OFFERING of it to the Lord even a TENTH PART OF THE TITHE.

    The Levites received from Children of Israel and gave to the Lord? Who did they really give? They gave heave offering to the priest. See Numbers 18:28: Thus ye shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithe, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lord’s heave offering to Aaron the priest You may read the whole Numbers 18:21-28.

    However, like I mentioned earlier, Giving, Offering was already being done but it was voluntary and not by a rule or regulation as was the case during the time of the Levitical Priesthood.
    Continue to give as you desire in your spirit, no percentage to your income, give joyfully. It may be your time, it may be material, it does not necessarily have to be money all the time!
    If you do not mind, I will advise you get the Hebrew-Greek Study Bible(KJV) and also Amplified Bible

  5. S Ellsworth says:

    A-Student

    You are obviously angry and frusrated. It seems you are letting the “rules” of man control your mood and ruin your Christian joy.

    Tithing – maybe it would be a better idea not to officially join a church. Find one that honors and praises God and attend to give your thanks to Him through worship. Give them what God tells you to give not what they say you have to give. Just as ese okposio said (in preceding post), “from your heart.”

    You can also “give” anonymously to trusted charities and individuals because when it comes to giving, the very most important thing is – GOD KNOWS. 🙂

    God bless you and I will pray for your peace.

  6. ese okposio says:

    My dear friend I want to make some comments on The Trinity: I have a slightly different understanding and I will endeavour to support my view with scriptures.

    I have read, Isa 43:10-11, Isa 43:15, Isa 45:21 you mentioned in the write up. I want us to add Deu 6:4: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord and Isa 44:6: Thus saith the Lord. the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts; I am the FIRST and I am the LAST; and beside me there is no God.
    I want to state that the Trinity does not annul the Unity or Oneness of God. God’s Unity is so complex that it could and did encompass a multiplicity of Persons functioning together as a Unit.

    Let us examine Psalm 110(KJV)
    David was permitted to see and he revealed the following:
    Psalm 110:1- The Lord(God the Father)said to my Lord(Melchizedek=Holy Spirit) sit Thou at my Right Hand…We have 2 Lords or 2 Persons. In Psalm 110:4- The Lord(God the Father) hath sworn and will not repent, Thou art a priest(Lord Jesus) forever after the order of Melchizedek(Holy Spirit). We now have 3 Persons(The Trinity). You may read further that Melchizedek, the Lord at the Right judges the heathens and many other activities in the psalm.
    Let us examine Luke 22:69(Complete Jewish Bible)
    Jesus said, but from now on, the Son of Man will be sitting at the right hand of HaG”vurah. Let us observe the Persons in this statement: Lord Jesus Christ, The Son of Man(Holy Spirit) at the right hand and the One with the Right Hand. We have 3 Persons!

    Who is the Holy One of Israel, the Redeemer, the King of Israel as mentioned in the book of Isaiah? Is He God The Father?, Is He Jesus Christ? Is He the Holy Spirit?

    He is the First Born or the First Born Son, The Son who has the power to forgive, the Son at the right hand, the Son who is also an Angel but has God’s name in Him, the Son who created the heavens and the earth! The Son who God the Father called “God”. I paraphrased but read all about Him in Hebrews 1.

    He is also the One who has seven Spirits before his throne, in rev 1: 4-5. Please observe in this passage….. and from Jesus Christ. So you have 2 Persons in this verse. The One who owns the throne and Lord Jesus.

    I will conclude by stating that the Holy One of Israel is: the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the one who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty God. He is indeed the Holy Spirit! You may read the whole of Chapter 1 of Revelation.

    With the message or teachings of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, you will be able to do the Will of God the Father! Both Persons came from God The Father.
    As for God The Father Himself, no one hath seen or can see! Read 1 Tim 15-16.

  7. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    If one reads all of Nehemiah it is clear that there was nothing in the store room. The Israelites had not been obeying the Scriptures and therefore did not Tithe. Consider Neh 4:2, Sanballat asked, “Will they offer sacrifices?” It was because they had not been doing so.

    The truth is they had no tenth with which to give. Consider Neh 9:36&37 (NIV) “But see, we are slaves today, slaves in the land you gave our forefathers so they could eat its fruit and the other good things it produces. Because of our sins, its abundant harvest goes to the kings you have placed over us. They rule over our bodies and our cattle as they please. We are in great distress.”

    What the kings that God had placed over them did not take; their nobles did (Neh 5:1-11)

    The Israelites did not understand God’s Law until Ezra read from the Book of the Law of Moses (Neh 8), so they had not been Tithing. As a result there was nothing in the storeroom. They did not assume responsibility for their action until they took an oath in chapter ten.

    As for tenth and Tithe meaning the same thing, they do not. Any word used by anyone must be interpreted with the context in which it is used. I spell Tithe with a capital letter to signify the ritual that God wanted Israel to celebrate. It was a tenth and it is easy to mix up Tithe and tenth, but they do not always mean the same thing.

    I feel that I must defend myself just a little here. It seems as though, because I am trying to share my understanding, some think that I do not give. Do not make assumptions, about me personally, from what I say about God’s Word. You might be right and you might be wrong.

    As for the differences in translations, I have had many exchanges, with many of my brothers where the differences of translations were brought up. However, when the context of the Word is understood there is no difference. One cannot understand any of God’s Word without the Spirit within teaching it to us. I am quite sure that our Father can protect His Word and impart the meaning of it to us. Citing small differences and implying there is a difference in meaning only leads to confusion.

    heave (hv) v. heaved, heav•ing, heaves. –tr. 1. To raise or lift, especially with great effort or force

    You see “heave” was used to denote how the Tithe was offered. It did not mean a type of offering. Using words that we no longer use in our day to day communications only confuse and do not clarify anything.

    I find it difficult to stop thinking about the Tithe. When I look at it from the position that God would see it, I see that God gave Israel nine times more than He kept for Himself. But Israel would not honor God, even with His own wealth!

    Actually, God even gave Israel the tenth that He kept for Himself and they still stole from Gods tenth! As He said, (Mal 3:10 NIV) “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.”

    The first two years God gave His wealth to Israel for the biggest party they could have. Imagine spending a tenth of your total income on one party! They probably did that, but when there was no party they were not honest with God’s wealth.

    Here is something to think about. God gave a double share of the Tithe to His children, that did not work (they had a banquet two out of three years), and only one share (they only received a tenth one out of three years) to the priest that did His work!

    ese okposio, don’t you see that you prove my point? I don’t say this to harm you, but to help you. Study Tithing, using Scripture to guide you. Do not lean on your own understanding. Only consider what I have said as questions and not answers. My brothers listen to others and themselves, not to our Father!

    When we were baptized we received the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ to teach us all things, but my brothers waste the greatest gift that God could give! They place their trust in others and themselves and do not search the Word, asking the Spirit that lives within them for true understanding.

    Here is something more to consider. Not all of Israelis were required to Tithe. If an Israelite was not a herdsman, or farmer, or did not grow fruit trees, or was not a priest, they did not Tithe. Jesus was a carpenter and was not required to Tithe, no matter how much he made from his work. His income did not come directly from the land and therefore there was no Tithe for him. God did not require the poor to Tithe, or even the rich, if their wealth did not come from the land.

    I don’t think anyone understands what I am trying to convey here. What bothers me is the church does not teach the ritual of Tithing. Because the leaders do not teach it and because they imply that all of Israel was required to give a tenth of their income to the church and everyone, following the false example they teach, should give a tenth of their income every year to the church, many are oppressed and the church has too much wealth. The flock is poor and must scratch out a living, while the leaders enjoy a great income.

    The flock is as guilty, in a way, as the leaders. The Word of God is open to all who have been baptized. Anyone, that is a Christian, has the Spirit to teach them all things (1 Cor 2:9-16, 1 John 2:27). I see that most Christians waste the gift of the Spirit by not spending time in the Word. They are not enthused and so they depend on men to teach them instead of God. They are easy pickings when someone comes along and says the Jews were required to give back ten percent to God every year and they should also.

  8. ese okposio says:

    My Dear astudent.
    Your presentation is interesting to read but not so convincing! I will respond to few statements in the write-up.
    (1) ” Citing small differences….” –
    Such a difference could give false meaning and lead one astray.

    (2) ” …we received the Holy Spirit……asking the Spirit that lives
    within them..” –
    You cannot receive the Holy Spirit, neither can the Spirit live
    within them. What you can receive is the power of the Holy
    Spirit. The capitalization of the S in Spirit indicates the Divine
    Person. It can not dwell in you. If you have a study bible or some
    translations, when they report or state being filled with the spirit,
    the s is in small letter. The spirit with the small letter s means
    power or breath or wind. Don’t you think this small difference as
    you call it affects the meaning and consequently your
    understanding of the verse. It is clearly stated in Acts 1:8- But ye
    shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon
    you……
    I know you may cite other verses to support your submission.
    However, if you know and understand that the Holy Spirit is a
    Divine Person you will know it cannot dwell in you that is spirit! But
    you can receive His power or the effects of His power.

    (3) You stated ” The Israelites did not understand God’s Law until
    Ezra read from the Book of the Law of Moses(Neh 8)”
    I don’t want to agree or disagree, neither do I want to make an
    assumption of your level of understanding of this statement. Are
    you aware there are 613 rules, regulations, precepts, ordinances
    in the Law of Moses while God’s Law is the 10 commandments?
    The 2 Laws are different! You can not read one to get an
    understanding of the other! The religious practices of Israel
    ( Levites, Priests and the people of Israel) was based on the Law
    of Moses

    (4) You stated” Sanballat asked, “Will they offer sacrifices? It was
    because they had not been doing so.
    From the statement you made, I may infer you want them to offer
    sacrifices! But I disagree because the Lord God, does not want it.
    Refer to Jer 7:22-23:- For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor
    commanded them in the day, I brought them out of the land of
    Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices, but this thing
    commanded I them saying obey My voice…
    You may read further Psalms 40 and 50 that supports what Lord
    God said as reported by Jeremiah.

    Can you reconcile or explain what is reported of the Lord in
    Leviticus 4:1-4 with what is written in Jer 7:22-23?
    I will still advise you have in your library The Hebrew-Greek
    Study Bible and the Amplified Bible.

  9. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    I am not really trying to convince you of anything. These are only my thoughts, or to be a bit more correct, these are the thoughts that seem correct to me when I use only Scripture to guide me.

    You say, “You cannot receive the Holy Spirit, neither can the Spirit live within them. What you can receive is the power of the Holy Spirit.”

    But Scripture says that we can receive the Holy Spirit, “Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38&39 NIV)

    And Scripture explains what the Spirit will do, if the person that receives the Spirit will take advantage of the gift. (John 14:26 NIV) “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

    You also said that the Spirit cannot live within, but Scripture disagrees with that. (Rom 8:9 NIV) “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”

    You asked, “The spirit with the small letter s means power or breath or wind. Don’t you think this small difference as you call it affects the meaning and consequently your understanding of the verse?”

    No, it seems to me to be a mistake, not a clarification. It is true that the word Spirit (or Ghost) in John 14:26 can be translated as breath or wind, but it has to mean the breath of God and therefore Devine! We are told that it is the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16 NIV) “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”

    You say that we receive only power and cite Acts 1:8 as proof, but if you search 1:1 to 1:8 you will find that Scripture was speaking to and about the apostles, not to and about us.

    I have no power and yet I am sure I have the Holy Spirit. God gave the apostles power, not me. He gave me the Holy Spirit to teach me all things (John 14:26), not to heal the physically sick, or the many things that the apostles did. If I had that power the world would beat a path to my door and they would exalt me, not my Father. I am sure of that and therefore I do not want any power.

    You say, “God’s Law is the 10 commandments”, but a complete understanding of God’s law reveals God’s law is actually only two commands.

    (Mat 22:37-40 NIV) Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    You see that obeying these two commands all of the 10 commandments will be automatically obeyed. And many sins that are not specifically mentioned will also be avoided.

    You asked, “Can you reconcile or explain what is reported of the Lord in Leviticus 4:1-4 with what is written in Jer 7:22-23?”

    Yes, at least I understand and will try to explain/reconcile the two verses. I do not believe that you will accept my explanation, but I will try anyway. In all fairness I do not believe God will let me teach anyone. He saves that pleasure for Himself. After all, who knows God better, me or God Himself? If the mind of Christ, the Holy Spirit lives in us then listen to Him for the answers and only consider the thoughts of man (me) as questions.

    The day that God brought Israel out of Egypt He had yet to give them the Law. If you read on in Jeremiah it is plain that God only commanded that Israel obey Him, but they did not, so He gave them the Law of Moses so that they might know or understand that they needed a Savior and God would also provide that Savior. (Mat 11:13 NIV) “For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” (Rom 5:20 NIV) “The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more”

    It was God that dictated the Law of Moses to Moses. It was not Moses idea of what God wanted. Because all Scripture is God breathed and therefore true, it should be clear that Leviticus and Jeremiah can be reconciled with out changing either: just understanding what God meant when He wrote both. If one cannot reconcile both then HALLELUJAH, we have something more to learn!

    You keep saying that I should study The Hebrew-Greek Study Bible and the Amplified Bible, but the Bible was not amplified when God wrote it so it has been changed from the way it was. God condemns changing His word. (Rev 22:18-19 NIV) “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

    Knowing this, why would I study a Bible that has been changed by man?

    Having said that I do believe that God can teach His Word, even from a corrupted Bible. Because man translates or writes Bibles, it seems to me that all Bibles are somewhat corrupted. We interject our understanding into what we write and because no man has perfect understanding the end result is a corrupted Bible. I normally use the NIV, but I see differences between it and the KJV. Verses are slightly changed and some are even left out entirely! And then there is the copyright! It amazes me that anyone can acquire a copyright on the Word of God! It even amazes me more that anyone would want to acquire a copyright on the Word of God!

    You recommended Bibles to me, so let me recommend e-Sword, a study source to you. There are 13 versions of the Bible in the e-Sword program on my computer, 12 of which were free (I had to buy the NIV, because it is copyrighted!). The program will show all 13 versions of a particular verse with just the click of a key. It comes with many features that sometimes helps with understanding and sometimes confuses also.

  10. ese okposio says:

    Dear astudent.
    Too many issues to address but let me take up the straight forward ones that may not need too lengthy explanations.
    (1) The Commandments still remain 10 and will be so for all
    eternity. The Lord Jesus only summarised it to two
    commandments but this does not annul the ten commandments.
    (2) You mentioned the Holy Spirit teaching all things, quoted John
    14:26 and supported with other verses in the scriptures. I will
    also advise you read and study John 16:7-15, so you understand
    more and in details the works of the Holy Spirit and Who He
    really is: Please let me paraphrase since you will study:-
    When HE is come he will reprove the world of sin and of
    righteousness and of judgement. Howbeit when HE the Spirit of
    Truth is come he will guide you into all truth; For He shall not
    speak of HIMSELF, but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he
    speak and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify
    Jesus Christ….
    If you understand this passage deeply enough, then you will
    agree that the One, WHO IS TO COME(The Holy Spirit,
    Comforter, Counsellor), the Promised One, The Teacher, cannot
    dwell in you
    (3) As regards changing the Word, as stated in your write up, it
    appears I am misunderstood. You know the scriptures in their
    original tongues were not written in English but in Greek,
    Hebrew and Aramaic. I only advised you have a copy since I
    thought it could help you in some of the issues being discussed
    as regards translation, transliteration, history, etc. It is not a must
    you buy it. However, I will check out your e-sword via google
    (4) You quoted Rev 22:18-19. Please be advised John’s warning
    was for the Book in question- The Revelation. I am not
    advocating a change or alteration of other Books in the Bible. I
    am just saying we must do our interpretation of verses in context
    and appropriately.

    You may be have a strong argument when you say all Bibles are somewhat corrupted. The English Language may not be able to do justice to the original tongues and above all languages are dynamic and changing! If you check www. biblegateway.com. you will find about 54 translations of the Bible!
    Nonetheless, in these last days, everyman will know God for himself. What is not true or the truth, your spirit will reject it. Study Heb 8:10-12.

  11. astudent says:

    ese okposio

    How did you get the idea that I said something that would annul the Ten Commandments?

    Though I understand the Ten Commandments as only a small part of God’s law, I did not say, imply, or mean the first and second law in any way annuls the Ten Commandments.

    Actually, I look at God’s Law as rules to live by, not really commandments. You cannot command someone to love you and expect them to really love you from their heart. God could make me love Him, but it would not be from my heart. God wants me to love Him because I want to, not because He made me do so. So, what is called commands in the Bible I see as rules that God wants me to follow.

    If I obey the second Rule of Life I would not kill anyone, because I do not want to be killed. Nor would I lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, or violate any of the Ten Commandments.

    The beauty of the second Rule of Life is that it covers sins that are not defined in the Ten Commandments. If I see my neighbor cold, hungry, or in need of anything and I obey the second Rule of Life, I would clothe, feed, or attempt help him in anyway that I can. It would be a sin not to, but if I only obeyed the Ten Commandments I would not be required to help that neighbor. So, the second Rule of Life is greater than the Ten Commandments. As Jesus said “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments”.

    I took you advice and studied John 16:7-15 again. Actually, I went a little farther and found that Jesus was speaking figuratively (John 16:25). It seems to me that you are taking what he said as literal and not figuratively.

    You say that WHO IS TO COME as though he has not yet come, but he has come. He has not come to end the world, but to save it.

    It is said that Jesus returned in many verses, I cite one John 20:14 and the Spirit has also returned – John 20:22.

    I cannot accept your words, “If you understand this passage deeply enough, then you will agree that the One, WHO IS TO COME (The Holy Spirit, Comforter, Counselor), the Promised One, The Teacher, cannot dwell in you”.

    Scripture tells me “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (Rom 8:9 NIV)

    If you could be correct then there is no hope for either of us, because if you are correct the Spirit of God does not live in us, because He is not here and we do not belong to Christ, because we cannot have the Spirit that is not even here!

    I quoted Rev 22:18-19 NIV and you say “Please be advised John’s warning was for the Book in question”, as if it only applied to the book of Revelation! Think about what you said! Do you think that it would please God if we added to, or took away from any part of His Word? It should be apparent that the verses mean any part of Scripture.

  12. ese okposio says:

    Dear astudent.
    The verses you quote as regards the Holy Spirit are correct. However the interpretation you give to it gives me concern! It goes back to translation and transliteration again! Can a Person, who was promised by Lord Jesus to come reprove the world of Sin, judgment, righteousness.. tell you of things to come, glorify Christ, teach you all truth- live in you?! The power of the Holy Spirit can live in you but not the Holy Spirit Himself.

    When you say He has already come, you quoted Romans 8:9, where it its stated in part, IF the Spirit of God lives in you… and you also quoted John 20:22, where Christ said ..Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
    Let us agree based on the above verses and several other verses that persons received the Holy Spirit in them. I ask, did all the activities stated in John 16:7-15 happen or take place when these persons received the Holy Spirit? NO. Hence what they received was not the Holy Spirit Himself but His power.
    The Son of God, Jesus was not speaking figuratively but was speaking of a future event- THE LAST DAYS.

    Let us take a study of some parts of Acts 2, for us to see why you may hold the view that He has come and why you should study some other verses in this same chapter to understand what really happened:

    Let us cite Acts 2:4- And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. One may conclude that yes, the Person of the Holy Spirit is in them! But let us read the same Acts 2: 16-18
    But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith GOD, I will POUR OUT OF my Spirit upon all flesh….. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will POUR OUT in those days of my Spirit…

    I ask: What was being poured out of the Holy Spirit? His power. It is the power they received as appropriately reported in Acts 1:8. It is the same power you and I can receive.
    The Holy Spirit can not pour out Himself neither can He pour out the Holy Spirit.

  13. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    I believe I see why we have reached very little agreement! We seem to have a basic difference of our views of God!

    My view or understanding of God is that He is my Father. He loves me with all of His heart and with all His soul and with all His strength and with all His mind and He would like me to love Him back the same way.

    My Father would not put my fate in someone else’s hands. So, my understanding does not depend on translations and transliterations. That would mean my faith was in some man’s hands. He gave me His Word, written in the language that I speak and He lives in me to reveal it to me.

    You asked, “Can a Person, who was promised by Lord Jesus to come reprove the world of Sin, judgment, righteousness.. tell you of things to come, glorify Christ, teach you all truth- live in you?”

    Of course He can; with God all things are possible (Mat 19:26). You do believe that nothing is impossible for God, don’t you? Or have you set limits on God in your own mind?

    Pardon me, but it seems that your view of God is still the view that the world sees. That is of a Divine, awesome, perfect being. Though that is all true, He is our Father and because of that He is no longer unapproachable.

    My Father loves me. He is the same father that is described in the parable of the prodigal son. When I turned to Him He ran to me, threw His arms around me, and kissed me! He clothed me with Christ, the very best robe that was ever woven. He put a ring on my finger to mark me as His and He gave me sandals on my feet to keep the dirt of the world from me!

    Romans 8:9 certainly does say “if” and I say that the Spirit of God certainly does live in me and I belong to Christ. There is no room for “if” in my mind.

    What exactly do you mean when you say receive the power of the Holy Spirit? What seems different to you when compared to just receiving the Holy Spirit? What definition are you placing on the word “power”?

    You say, “The Son of God, Jesus was not speaking figuratively”, but Scripture says he was, (John 16:25 NIV) “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.”

    If you change Scripture, in your own mind, to say what you think it should be saying, you error. The verse certainly does say “figuratively” and to deny that it is to confuse it.

    You say, “The Holy Spirit can not pour out Himself neither can He pour out the Holy Spirit.” Well, I must have missed that! There, again, is something that God cannot do!

    ese okposio, I am sure that you mean well, but iron cannot sharpen iron. We are like iron and we need to be sharpened by the Rock and cannot be sharpened with, or by, other iron. The sharpening stone is the Rock of Israel (Gen 49:23). Listen to Him, not to me, not to yourself, and not to any man.

  14. ese okposio says:

    My Dear Friend.
    I find your views very interesting:
    Please allow me paraphrase some of your comments:-

    You want God as your Father to Love you with His heart, soul, mind…and He would like me to LOVE HIM BACK!
    You want God The Father to show you love and then you reciprocate. That is what your statement means. You reverse the roles or you give your own meaning to what is clearly stated in Deu 6:5 and repeated in the synoptic gospels. God does not need us, we need Him. You act first as He has commanded and then He will show you the Love greater than what our earthly father can ever show.

    You ask if I believe that with God nothing is impossible and quoted Math19:26. I have a deeper understanding of this verse. But I ask you- Is it impossible for God to sin? Or is it possible for God to lie? Or is it possible for God to break His Law? Answer these questions truthfully and compare with the comments you made on impossibility and possibility with regards to God.

    Cheers and have a wonderful day!

  15. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    Well, I said nothing about “need”. Everything that I said was about “love”. Let me repeat that statement in a slightly different way: I did not say, mean, or imply that God “needs” me.

    I feel that I must defend myself about something that I did not say and of course that is not possible.

    I merely attempted to convey my understanding of our Father and His love for me. I believe that He loves you with the same intensity.

    We did not act first, God acted first. It should be clear that He loved us before we loved Him. He loved us so much that He sent His son to die for us, even before we were born!

    God does not need us, but He certainly wants us or we would not even exist.

    I have to laugh at your question, “Is it impossible for God to sin?” It is one of those questions like ‘What is the sound of one hand clapping?’, or ‘Can God make a rock so large that He cannot move it?’ It is an illogical question.

    A sin is a transgression against God.

    sin1 (s¹n) n. 1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate. 2. Theology. a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God. b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

    Can God disobey Himself? Even though it is an illogical question there is an answer.

    We both know that Scripture says that it is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18).

    Now, this is why I trade comments with my brothers! I have learned, or see something that I did not see before. You have helped me again!

    The verse does not say that it is impossible for God to lie about anything, which is the way I always read or understood the verse. It says, “by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie”! It does not say everything, but only two things! Two unchangeable things!

    Nevertheless, I am quite sure that God does not violate any rule that He wants us to obey, so though God could lie; He did not, does not, and will not lie. But He could, if He wanted too, or one could not truthfully say nothing is impossible with God.

    By the way, I always strive to answer questions truthfully. I seem to get in trouble with my brothers when I attempt to follow the words of Elihu.

    (Job 32:21&22 NIV) I will show partiality to no one, nor will I flatter any man; for if I were skilled in flattery, my Maker would soon take me away.

    I like it when others say that I am wrong, because it causes me to rethink what I have already considered and then I must think of a way to say what I understand; or what I believe that I understand.

    Most of my brothers want to be told how right they are (flattery) and it wounds their pride when I do not, but who would learn anything if they, or I were right? We would only be teaching to the choir and agreeing with what we already know: or what we think we already know.

  16. ese okposio says:

    Dear astudent.
    I will address only the possibility and impossibility issue as regards God.

    Let me state your comments “as is” so I dont misunderstand your thoughts or what you intend to communicate:

    Nevertheless, I am quite sure that God does not violate any rule that He wants us to obey, so though God could lie; He did not, does not and will not lie. BUT HE COULD IF HE WANTED TO, or one could not truthfully say NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD.

    You started very well stating God does not violate any rule but ended wrongly by stating that HE COULD LIE IF HE WANTED TO. By this submission you present the Lord God Almighty as One who COULD ACT arbitrarily, anyhow or lawlessly. In short He could act not according to His Will. HE Will not do so!

    Why did you make such a statement one may ask? The answer is in your statement. You wanted to justify ” Nothing is impossible with God” statement based on your understanding.

    Read the whole story all over again not just that verse in question.
    What is impossible with men is possible with God. What appears impossible with men based on their limited understanding of His Law or Will is possible with God.
    When God performs his works or acts in our lives it is according to His Will or Law. Nothing happens outside it. He does not act anyhow or arbitrarily.
    Cheers and have a wonderful day!

  17. astudent says:

    ese okposio

    You said, “You started very well stating God does not violate any rule but ended wrongly by stating that HE COULD LIE IF HE WANTED TO. By this submission you present the Lord God Almighty as One who COULD ACT arbitrarily, anyhow or lawlessly. In short He could act not according to His Will. HE Will not do so!”

    Do we have a difference of understanding? That is exactly what I said and meant. I said that He would not do so! What is the problem?

    I base my understanding on Scripture (Mat 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37, 18:37).

    By the way, I did not start this part of our conversation by stating God does not violate any of His rules; I ended that that part of my explanation by saying it. Big difference.

  18. ese okposio says:

    THE PROBLEM IS: HE COULD LIE IF HE WANTED TO!

  19. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    Well, it is not my problem!

    To me the concept that God could lie, and yet does not, only exalts Him in my eyes.

    How could I glorify God for not doing something that He cannot do?

    I must leave for the weekend so please excuse any late response. Perhaps it will give you more time to respond as well.

    Thanks for sharing. It means a lot to me.

  20. ese okposio says:

    Thanks all the same for sharing your thoughts with me.
    My concept is that the thought of lie does not even occur to Him in the first place, because it is against His Will.
    Hopeful to continue next week on another topic.
    Cheers.

  21. creationwitness says:

    This is a thought:

    I am a father and a son. I also have a spirit and yet, I am one.

    The poetry was not intended.

  22. creationwitness says:

    I am a father and I am a son. I am a spirit and yet, only one.

  23. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I like your poetry; intended or not.

    I usually think of myself as a father that used to be a son (of man).

    Now I think of myself as a father of man that will always be a son of God.

  24. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    The thought helped me to understand how God can be three and how we often misinterpret what he says. At least that is my explanation.

    Your comment needed some thought. It is very comforting and wonderful feeling that I thought was forever lost from my childhood but best of all, the feeling is increasing. I pray the same for all of our brothers and sisters.

  25. ese okposio says:

    Yes, God is One. As it is written in Deu 6:4:” Hear, O, Israel; The Lord our God is One Lord. But it is also written in Luke 3: 22: ” And the Holy Ghost( a Person) descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him, and a Voice(from a Person) came from Heaven which
    said, Thou art my beloved Son(a Person), in Thee I am well pleased. 3 Persons are mentioned in this verse. However, this does not annul the Oneness of God as stated in Deu 6:4. God’s Unity or Oneness is so complex that it could and did encompass a multiplicity of Persons functioning together as ONE!

  26. astudent says:

    creationwitness and ese okposio,

    I apologize for the late response.

    Some subjects lead me from one point to another and I end up so far from the point that any comment would not make sense. This is one such subject and it has brought me much pleasure to ponder again.

    I do not think that God is complex! I view God as very simple, straightforward, even humble! That is not to say I do not revere Him for He deserves to be worshiped.

    I believe God wants us to be like Him. I believe He wants our character to match His character. Over and over Scripture says that we should humble ourselves and I believe God wants us to humble ourselves because He is humble: so humble that He even blesses those who curse Him!

    Jesus was an exact representation of the Father (Heb 1:3) and he claimed to be humble in heart (Mat 11:29). So, putting the two thoughts together, our Father is also humble in heart.

    Before I knew God I could not have said these things, but now I know Him and I can. He is my Father and I love Him. I am no longer afraid of Him! That is not to say that I can do anything and get away with it. I do not want to do just anything, but I only want to do what my Father wants me to do.

    That is not to say that I always do what my Father would do in every situation and I find comfort in John 12:47.

    I think ese okposio is right when he says Oneness encompasses a multiplicity of Persons functioning together as one. I just don’t believe it is complex.

    I believe that when Jesus said (John 10:30 NIV) “I and the Father are one.” He meant one in agreement, not one person. If we take it to mean one person then many other verses do not make sense.

    Anyway, that is how I view what others call “The Trinity” and so I do not believe in the Trinity.

    I told you all that I am a heretic

  27. ese okposio says:

    The exact representation of God The Father, you refer to in Heb 1:3 and the entire chapter 1 of Hebrew is none other than the Holy Spirit, the First Born OVER Creation. You can not be like GOD!! We humans are spirit. God is Divine!

  28. astudent says:

    (John 4:24 NIV) God IS SPIRIT, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
    (John 4:24 KJV) God IS A SPIRIT and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    (1 John 3:1&2 NIV) How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, for we shall see him as he is.

    Though it is true that I am not like God; I will be!

    I agree that the first chapter of Hebrews is about the Holy Spirit and that is the one that became human (Jesus) so that he could suffer the punishment that I deserved.

    Of course God is divine.

  29. ese okposio says:

    God is Spirit! If you study deeply not read some of the translations, you will observe the “S” in the Spirit for God is a CAPITAL S, while that for human beings or human spirit is a small s. I have the Hebrew-Greek Bible., and the dictionary meaning for the word Spirit used for God means Divine! We must realise who we are and where our origin is, then you will be humble and give thanks to the Lord God Almighty.

  30. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    There are no capitals in the Hebrew language.

    Strong’s Concordance which is where our English translations come from uses the word “pneuma” as the word for spirit in John 4:24. It is not capitalized.

    According to Strong’s 4151. pneuma, pnyoo’-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy Spirit:–ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. G5590

    The first definition of the word “divine” is “Having the nature of or being a deity.”

    So, by definition, I can be divine if I have the nature of a deity!

    ese okposio, I know who I am. I am a child of God; made in His image and I thank Him daily.

    It seems to me that you believe me to be prideful. I try not to be, but I realize that sometimes I sound that way. I do not know how to convey what I believe without sometimes sounding arrogant to others. God has not given that gift to me, so I do the best that I can.

    I apologize for sounding the way that I do. However, I will still do the best that I can. Please try to understand. It is a weakness on my part.

    Well, I have to laugh. How is your sense of humor? If you are a good Christian then you “must” forgive me! You even have to forgive your enemies and I am not even your enemy.

    Well, at least I think it is funny.

  31. ese okposio says:

    I did not say you have capitals in the hebrew language. In the translation into English, the meanings of the Spirit and the spirit used in the verse in question are different. Yes you are a child of God. We are children of God. But most importantly you were made AFTER HIS LIKENESS! NOT AFTER HIMSELF! The One who is LIKE HIM, HIS IMAGE we read about in HEBREWS chapter 1.
    The Human Being is spirit and will remain so. You can not become divine except you want to claim to be and Angel! There is nothing wrong in striving to be like him or be perfect but it is important you know your origin.

  32. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    I know that you did not say that there are capitals in the Hebrew Language. Actually, I see that we are partially in agreement.

    The translators of the NIV and the KJV have placed a slightly different meaning on “God is spirit”. It should be obvious that the difference was caused by man and not by God.

    I usually agree with the KJV when there is a slight difference, but this time I side with the NIV.

    I was born a human, and if I write that fact, I write it just as I did. I mean that I capitalize “I” but I do not capitalize “human”. What I mean, if I write this is that I am a human being; a type of mammal.

    That is the way I read “God is spirit”. If I read it as you do, with a capital applied to spirit, which when done so, Spirit means God, then the verse would say ‘God is God’! It would not really say anything. I believe that all of Scripture is written to teach us about God. Saying God is God teaches me nothing.

    You say, “The Human Being is spirit and will remain so”, but it seems to me that Scripture disagrees with that.

    (John 3:6-8 KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    As I understand, we are first born human and then, if we want, we are born of the Spirit, which makes us spirit. I would say that “The human being is not spirit, but dead spiritually and will remain that way unless they are born again. Then we are born a spiritual being and in that respect, and only in that respect, like God.

    I know my origin. I was given physical life by God. Physical life is the breath of God (Gen 2:7) and it has been passed on to everyone that has been born physically, including me. Spiritual life was given to me when I received Christ (John 1:12&13). Both came from God and He is my origin.

    ese okposio, I am not saying that you are wrong about anything. I am only trying to convey my thoughts to you.

    God has given me an analogy that I have found enlightening. Perhaps it will serve you also.

    There stands a stop sign with a mote all the way around it. It is not possible to get any closer to the sign than a thousand feet. Many wonder about the sign and try to learn all about it. There stands a man, facing the sign, and he calls to another, who stands directly across from him and he says, “Do you see the word written on the sign?” The other calls back and says that there is nothing written on the sign. And they begin to argue.

    You see, the sign that the two men are studying is the same sign, only the locations of the two men are different. Both are correct as to what they see, but they think that the other is wrong, because they can plainly see the sign. Each believes the other wrong and yet both are right.

    We are two men trying to see God. We are just standing in different locations.

    By the way, an angel is a messenger. We either are an angel of God, or an angel of Satan, there is no third choice. So, yes I am an angel, and so are you, because you proclaim God’s message!

    Well, that is the view from where I stand. It is really kind of funny, if you don’t take it too seriously.

  33. ese okposio says:

    i do not agree with you on the definition of an angel. Angel is a Divine Messenger and hence his origin is the divine realm. However, we human spirits have our origin in the spiritual realm- Heaven or the Kingdom of God! And so human spirits can not suddenly or even if they become perfect turn to be an Angel! Y
    our home remains Heaven! You must have read isaiah 66:1- The Lord declares heaven is my throne and the earth my footstool. What do you make of it? Cheers

  34. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    There are some things about angels and spirits that seem different to me.

    First, we are not told how angels came into existence. Anything that we can deduce about angels must come from clues, because we are not told anything plainly.

    You state that an angel is a Divine Messenger, but when I read Revelation 22:8&9 it seems to me that the angel that is spoken of here is saying that he is no different than John.

    It seems to me that the word angel usually means someone who has passed from this world to the next. They can be angels of God, or angels of Satan.

    I say usually, because it seems to me that the Holy Spirit is sometimes referred to as an angel. I mean when the angel is called “the angel of the LORD”. In that case he certainly would be Divine.

    I have this idea about angels, because there is no mention of angels in the account of creation. It seems to me that nothing, except God and the Holy Spirit, existed before Genesis 1:1. The verse says, “In the beginning” and I take that as the beginning of everything. So it seems to me that angels came later.

    There are those who say angels are beings that were created by God and infer that separates them from men. But men were created by God, so that doesn’t seem to separate them from men.

    You asked what I make of Isaiah 66:1 and I say 66:2. (Isa 66:2 NIV (in part)) “Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the LORD.” If you want to think our origin is from Heaven I would agree, but so is the origin of Satan, angels, and even Jesus!

    Do you know of a verse that defines what an angel is?

  35. ese okposio says:

    Let us say here that God and His Spirit existed before creation as you rightly said. However Genesis did not give details about Angels like you said. The Book of Revelation gave details. See Rev 5:11 and read the whole of Rev 5. Angels were not created and so they were not mentioned in the account of creation. However if you have a copy of 1611 King James Bible or Bibles that contain Deutro-canonical books and the Apocrypha(These Bible have 80 Books not 66 Books) you will read more about Angels.
    Even the Old testament books like Ezekiel discussed Angels. Read Ezekiel 1.There are several other books especially the Psalms and some of major prophets gave few details of Chief or Archl Angels.
    As for your comments on Rev 22: 8-9, Read Rev22:6 and Rev22:12-13 to discover the true Identity of the Angel. His true nature is not same with that of John.
    Cheers

  36. ese okposio says:

    Hello astudent.
    YES. The Angel of The Lord is the Holy Spirit! Hence when we study Exodus 23:20-22 , a deeper understanding of these verses will come to us. Hence the Angel of the Lord-The Holy Spirit is Divine as stated in your last message.
    Cheers

  37. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    The details about angels that Scripture does not give is whether or not angels were created. Any detail about angels that does not point, in some way to an answer to this question is, in this case, not productive or important for our understanding of this detail. That is not to say anything about angels is not important.

    You say angels were not created, but I see clues that indicate they were.

    Actually, everything and everyone, except for God, was created. Even the Holy Spirit was born (created).

    I read Proverbs 8 and see that it speaks of the Holy Spirit. It starts by calling Him wisdom and refers to Him as she, but the word for she is not in Hebrew.

    (Prov 8:22-25 NIV) “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,”
    (John 17:5 NIV) And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    As I read on in Proverbs chapter 8 it is clear to me that it speaks of the Holy Spirit and it says He was brought forth and born. If even the Holy Spirit was created (brought forth or born), then surly angels had to be. At least that seems right to me.

    When I read (Gen 1:1 KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    I understand it to mean the very beginning of everything. It seems to me that Scripture supports this view as even light was created. It seems to me that before Genesis 1:1 there was only God and His Son, nothing else: no heaven, earth, light, universe, or anything. So, to me, angels were also created. What verse would seem to indicate angels, or any thing other than the Holy Spirit, existed before Genesis 1:1?

    Please forgive me brother, but it seems to me that you have missed something in Revelation 22.

    The angel that speaks in verse 8 and says “I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book”, is not the one who speaks in 12 and 13. Read verse 16 to find out who is speaking in 12 and 13. Notice that Jesus is speaking about the angel in 8, who is a servant just as the angel said he was.

    Could the angels spoken of in Revelation 5:11 be the same individuals as those in 7:9? Those in verse 9 are called angels in verse 11 and the elder explained that they are men that have been saved in verse 14 thru 17.

    These are some of the clues that I base my understanding of angels on.

    What you say about angels I believe is true, but just as the two men circle the sign to discover everything about it, I think we should continue to circle Scripture: for the same reason. Let us not stop and claim our view is the only view, because as you learn more about Scripture we will find that it is not the only view.

    I believe that you are right when you say angels are divine (Having the nature of or being a deity), whoever there is more to angels than that and when looked at from all the angles we can continue to learn. Which, in my opinion, is a great blessing. Who, but God’s children, are able to learn about our Father? What a wonderful thing; to be able to learn about God!

    What verse or verses do you base your understanding and what is your reasoning?

  38. ese okposio says:

    The Holy Spirit(who is an Angel of the Lord) was not created as you may think. Let me also add too that Jesus was not created too. Please see John 15: 26; But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which PROCEEDETH from the Father, He shall testify of me. Also read, John 8:42: Jesus said unto them, if God were your Father, ye would love me; for I PROCEEDED FORTH and came from God, neither came I of myself, but He sent me. I will address some of the other issues raised later. I decided to discuss this because it is fundamental to the understanding of the Book of revelation. Jesus and the Holy Spirit CAME OUT OF GOD THE FATHER!

  39. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    I do not understand the difference that you place on the origin of the Holy Spirit.

    What is the difference between “proceedeth from” and born?

    Did not Eve come out of Adam? Was Eve born or did she proceed forth from Adam? Does it make any difference if you say born, or proceed forth? Did Eve exist before she was born? If the Holy Spirit came out of God the Father then did He exist before He came out of the Father? If not then He was born and did not exist before He was born.

    I agree with you when you say, Jesus and the Holy Spirit CAME OUT OF GOD THE FATHER! “, but we all came from God.

    Jesus was born of David (Revelation 22:16) He did not exist before he was born. I will say that God knew that he would be born, but, again, he did not exist before he was born.

    I view John 8:42 as Jesus, who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, is speaking as the Holy Spirit. In other words, it is the Holy Spirit speaking and He says that He was sent by God. That implies, to me, that the Holy Spirit and God are not the same being. If they are not the same being then at some point the Holy Spirit was born, created, came out of, etc.

    Were angels created?
    Psa 148:1-5 “Praise the LORD. Praise the LORD from the heavens, praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his heavenly hosts. Praise him, sun and moon, praise him, all you shining stars. Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. Let them praise the name of the LORD, for he commanded and they were created.”

  40. ese okposio says:

    Yes you are right with John 8:42. I said so also in my last message. Jesus said He came out of God. As for your question, proceedeth from and born are one and the same. In the sense that these words were used, it was to let us know that The Holy Spirit and Lord Jesus, have the same or share the same essence as God The Father. They are both Divine and cannot be SEPARATED from Him. They are One with HIm! As for human spirits, we are not DIRECTLY from Him. We were created and so not divine. If you read Proverbs 8:22-36, you may now understand the One who said “The Lord POSSESSED Me….” This ONE has been with the Father, even before the the beginning and hence also not created. When He came out of God in Creation, He was “born” and was above the surface of the waters as reported In Genesis. Or when you read about First Born OVER CREATION, in certain verses in scripture,The Holy Spirit is the One. being referred to: Proceedeth Forth and Born is NOT THE SAME AS BEING CREATED. The Spirit of God is the The Lord you read about in the books of the Old testament

  41. ese okposio says:

    Let me attempt to respond to the Angel in Chapter 22: We need to understand the opening passage of rev1:1 and indeed the entire chapter 1 of revelation and the fact that it was the Holy Spirit that was speaking to the Churches. The message was given to John. It is the Holy Spirit that is being refered to in Rev 1:8; He is the alpha and omega, the begining and ending, the one who is who was and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY. The Holy Spirit was there at the Begining of Creation with God as the FIRST BORN. Please also know The Holy Spirit is the One who has Seven Spirits before HIs Throne in Rev 1:4. Also read rev 1:5 to see the Lord Jesus was mentioned in that very long sentence. The One who claims that his reward is with Him in rev 22:12 is the Holy Spirit. The One appointed to Judge. We are also told that blessed are they that do his Commandments in rev 22:14. We know who gave the ten commandments. His Identity is not in doubt. He is not Lord Jesus Christ. But The Lord God ALMIGHTY!

    With the above, and what was written in rev22:6, you may understand that God sent His Angel, The Holy Spirit. Let me get your own thoughts on this!

  42. ese okposio says:

    You can not safely conclude from Psalm 148 that the Angels are included in what was CREATED. In addition to this if you agree that the Angel of the Lord is the Holy Spirit then Can God The Father create God The Holy Spirit? It is a definite NO. The same response applies to the other Arch Angels and several other Angels. They were not created. They have always existed eternally. Cheers

  43. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    I am trying to reconcile your previous comment. That is why I have been slow to answer.

    However, you have asked,” Can God The Father create God The Holy Spirit?” and I have to answer yes.

    If God can do anything, then God can do anything: whether or not it fits ones understanding.

    Can God create a Son? (Psa 2:7 NIV) I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father. (Acts 13:33, Heb 1:5 & 5:5)

    As for Psalms and angels, doesn’t verse five say “them”? How can you separate angels from the rest of “them”?
    (Psa 148:5 NIV) Let them praise the name of the LORD, for he commanded and they were created.

    Could you cite a verse that states angels always existed? That is not to say that they will, from now on, always exist. I will not die, so from the time I became a child of God, until forever I will exist, but I did not exist before God created me.

  44. creationwitness says:

    Hi all,

    I have a question that may help to solve one of the above issues.

    Are angels, sons of God and cherubim different?

  45. ese okposio says:

    Angels have always existed and they are “sons of God”. Please notice the small letter s in the usage. It means the Angels are a manifestation from God. God being The Light. Their abode is the divine region. Read and Study chapters 1 and 10 of the Book of Ezekiel. Also read, Psalm 18. Most importantly see Ezekiel 10: 20 and Psalm 18:10, you may understand that the Lord rides on Cherub and also the Cherubim supports the throne of God! They are divine messengers in that region who can support the throne or the Lord rides on!
    The Psalm 2:7 and the related verses you cited in Hebrews and Acts do not confirm the SON was created. The Father did not create the SON. He POSSESSED the Son as was clearly stated in Proverbs 8:22. You may read Proverbs 8:22-36 for a better understanding of the Person! God the Father did not create Lord Jesus neither did he create God The Holy Spirit. Both Proceeded from HIM as I have earlier stated with supporting verses in the scripture. What is your understanding?

  46. ese okposio says:

    Cherubims are Angels.

  47. creationwitness says:

    ese okposio,

    Sorry. You may not have noticed that last comment was not astudent. I should have made that more clear. An easy mistake for you to have made.

    I asked the last question because it has always been one of my “not entirely answered ones”. I say that because of certain verses as the following below, but I also asked to make a certain point. Personally I believe we should be able to ask any question imaginable so as to enable ourselves to be open to answers. Having said that, I do believe some questions are better left open rather than carving them in stone. I don’t know about you or others, but I do know my beliefs are becoming more refined on a daily basis. I thank both you and astudent for taking on this subject. It is a difficult one. I hope the dialog continues:

    (Eze 28:14 KJV) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    (Eze 28:15 KJV) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    I believe that although cherubim may be a type of angel, I have to take the stance that not all angels are or have the same functions. Also based on the above verse, I have to place doubt on anyone claiming angels were not created. I have also heard that angels to not have sex, but that leads elsewhere except to point out that the “sons of God” may or may not be angels as in “messengers”. My conclusion now is that the definition of an angel is not too clear. I see too many differences to heap them all into one basket.

    Maybe someone can shed more light?

  48. ese okposio says:

    Thanks for your submission. I saw your query and that of astudent and I wanted to respond at one go. However I understand your point of view. Yes I agree with your thoughts on Angels having different functions. I also want to add, due to different translations, some bibles represent human spirits as sons of God, while others represent human spirits as children of God. But others represent Angels as sons of God. We must know that the different Books of the Bible were written at different times, spanning over 1600 years and language/meanings are dynamic. This may be one of the factors that account for the differences you mentioned. Most importantly, because they are Divine Beings nearest to The Almighty God, it is difficult for us human spirits being of a different origin,(spiriual) to TOTALLY OR FULLY comprehend them(divine beings) or their actions as stated in scriptures. But the time is now or will I say the time has come, when if we genuinely seek we will get to some level of understanding of these divine beings. What is your take?

  49. astudent says:

    ese okposio and creationwitness

    ese okposio,

    OK, this has gone far enough. You want me to believe that angels are deity and that they always existed, as you said in your last comment. And you said their abode is in the “divine region”. However, Jesus said, (John 6:46 NIV) “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.” So angels did not abide in the “divine region” and they did not exist before God created them: just as it is clearly disclosed in Psalm 148:5. If you chose to deny it that it is your right, but I do not deny it.

    You rightly say that the Son was possessed by the Father. Don’t you see that the Son was part of God, just as Eve was part of Adam? Was not Eve an example of how one is born without a mother? Don’t you see that Eve was born of Adam, just as the Holy Spirit was born of God? (Gen 2:23 NIV) “The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman, ‘ for she was taken out of man.””. Was not Eve possessed by Adam before she was born? Does that nullify the fact that she was created?

    You answer nothing. You only tell me that I should study some verse, or verses and I will understand as you do, but you do not explain how the verses are supposed to reconcile your ideas and you do not answer my verses: except to say they do not confirm what I say they do.

    If angels were deity then we would have many Gods, not one God. It also stands to reason that if angels were deity they would be worthy of worship.

    There is only one God (Isa 45:5) and He is the creator of all things; even heaven (Gen 14:18&19).

    Angels did not always exist and I will not be led or deceived into worshiping them. Scripture warns us of this.

    (Col 2:18&19 NIV) Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

    ese okposio, you have lost connection with the Head. The Head is God the Father, the Creator of everything; heaven and everything in heaven and the earth and everything on it. That is the very basic of basics. It was all created for His glory not for the glory of angels: which is where your thoughts are headed.

    creationwitness,

    I would say yes, angels, sons of God and cherubim can be different.

    There are angels of Satan as well as angels of God. It seems to me that sons of God can be either good sons or bad, but actually aren’t we are all sons of God. Satan is called a guardian cherub in Ezek 28:14. The verses call him the King of Tyre, but it seems clear to me that it speaks of Satan, so cherubim can also be different.

    Be careful of angels (2 Co 11:14&15 NIV) And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

  50. ese okposio says:

    My dear Friend. You clearly misunderstood my submission and several points you raised I agree with. Some I disagree. There is only one God, God the Father. He possessed the Son, the Holy Spirit, that was born. I agree with all these statements. Please let me correct the assumption you made, I never said Angels are deity or Gods. I only said they are manifestation from God-The Light. I also said they have existed eternally in the divine region and were not created like the spirits.It is not my idea as you claim but what I understood from Ezekiel, Psalms and Revelation. I did highlight few verses just to show functions of Angels.
    I attempted to state that Holy Spirit being An Angel with Lord’s Name(Exodus 23:20-22) was not created and so other Angels were also not created! I only advised we read whole chapters and the other books in the bible to get a clearer and deeper understanding. I am not compelling you to see it from my view but I only advised searching or seeking with one’s spirit. I believe this is a platform for learning and sharing of experiences/understanding. What is your take?

  51. ese okposio says:

    What was the location of the Lord God Almighty when he was creating the heavens and the earth?

  52. creationwitness says:

    Hi all,

    ese, not to take away from your above question.

    Here are a few key verses concerning the Holy Spirit that I believe we should look at:

    (Joh 14:15 KJV) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    (Joh 14:16 KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    (Joh 14:17 KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    (Joh 14:18 KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    (Joh 14:19 KJV) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    (Joh 14:20 KJV) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    (Joh 14:21 KJV) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    Our Father will give us another Comforter. He lives with us and in us. Also verse 18 may be interpreted in more that one way. Is Christ also the other Comforter? In verse 20 Jesus “and ye in me, and I in you”. Remember also what he says here?

    (Joh 14:28 KJV) Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    and also:

    (Joh 16:7 KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    I point out these verses as they give me a better understanding. I hope everyone else can gain something by them too.

    Regarding angels: My previous question just brought up many more questions for me, but I can see it is not all cut and dry. Here is what I found. If you know differently, please inform: Cherubim do not seem to be angels. They are described as protectors or guardians of items. Satan is a Cherubim not an angel. Nowhere have I found that angels have wings. Cherubim do. And the sons of God appear in both heaven and here on earth. If they are angels then they can manifest themselves in bodily form. This is possible as other angels also appear as human such as in Genesis regarding Sodom.

    There is so much to study and learn and some more important or relevant to what we can expect. There is a whole mess of controversy to keep us otherwise busy. I am not saying the above issues are part of this controversy. They are not. They are very relevant to what is coming so we all have our work to do. Pray we have strength and focus as “strait is the gate”.

    (Dan 7:25 KJV) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    I pray this finds all well. Blessings

  53. ese okposio says:

    Yes you are right, about Jesus Himself, being a Comforter, Hence He said He will pray to the Father to send another Comforter, The Holy Spirit.
    As for your comment on Cherubim, you said they are described as protectors or guardians of items. You must have read Genesis 3: 24. You did not state what type of Guardian or Protector they were. For you to guide a place, you must have been deemed worthy in strenght and other qualities – greater than what you are assigned to protect! The Cherubims are Guardian Angels. No account was given about them in the 6/7 day creation story of Genesis. From where did they come?! I awiait your response on this and my question on location of Almighty God when He created the Heavens and the Earth.

  54. creationwitness says:

    Hi ese,

    You may have missed my question. My belief is that the Holy Ghost or Comforter was in Jesus Christ. He was both Messiah and Comforter.

    (Joh 3:34 KJV) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    (Joh 16:7 KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    Keeping John 14:17 in mind and these two verses I show you how I understand things. He resides in us.

    Regarding cherubim and to be more to the point, I was referring to your comment about angels not being created. It is clear that Ezekiel says differently about cherubim or in this case at least one cherub. If you say that cherubim are angels then you are saying angels have wings and that angels were created. That isn’t how I understand things and that is why I asked if there is a difference between them. I understand them as being different beings. Cherubim as protectors or guardians if you like and angels as messengers and ministers of God. If you believe they are the same, then I understand better why you believe what you believe.

    If you would like to know where I think God was at the time of creation, you may have to be patient until I understand why your question is relevant to the above because right now I can only answer that He was where He was and still is, but I don’t think that is the answer you are looking for.

    Please don’t take this as being antagonistic or facetious. My only intention is honesty.

    I pray this finds all well.

  55. Kay says:

    Wow! Well…. I am Saved by The Blood of Jesus Christ! I am not worthy of said salvation, yet can only claim what has been revealed to me through my own studies. I don’t claim to know all information and refer to many different studies. Favorites that I find more in lined with the scripture and history information is gotquestions.org, Ron Roberts (he gives all theorist beliefs yet explains his defense) I love raptureready.com however this is more because of (like your blog) makes me think and research more. I enjoy revelation because of the many connections to Daniel, Ezekiel, and Isaiah.
    But I see whole picture view of things not memorization word for word. So bare with me as I try to give you my view…

    I am not a Catholic. I said I am saved in the blood of Jesus Christ. This could be a Catholic if the trust that the only way to THE Father is through the Son. I can back this with scripture however its elementary to a saved Christian. John 3:16. By Jesus Christ dying on the cross can one be saved spiritually not physically. (Sin is death all are guilty but Jesus and that includes Mary.)

    1) tithing 10%? What was old is more made new… how much in percentage is not important. Later I will discuss more of former comments to mine but my point is…Mark 12:17. Jesus did not care about money. God wanted what, Abel saw, as his best given to God. And Abel gave his best. God was pleased with this. Cain and Abel are not told for tithing issues even If the church claims it. (Who are the church anyway?) The brothers are shown as to share the heart of two brothers. One heart was set for God the other was set on self. So tithing as you describe it for land or tribes do not apply to a person’s walk on a narrow path.
    James chapter 4 shows this alone… you can not show wisdom/knowledge (from God) with bitter,envy,strife in your heart.
    Can’t be double-minded. Values-attitude that are important to God should be important to those who serve Him. (I tell myself this, so not judging) where tithing might fall into the what’s made new after Jesus gave examples to would be, if someone is cold and you do nothing to warm him but just say prayer when you could have given your coat. Some churches used to be where people went for help with food and shelter. I remember the pantry basket came to our house one thanksgiving that all we had as powdered milk and krispie cereal, it came from the church out of the offerings that others made. Today more gov’t is involved in deciding who needs more than a church. I believe its the heart of the people of the body of Christ that makes a difference in rather tithing or offering is for. Gain for self or heart for God.

    2) the trinity: you know the Holy Spirit? You know Jesus? You know God? If the trinity is what you don’t want to call this then refer to God on throne in revelation and The lamb coming from the mist of the throne and consider the seven Spirits of God. When you look at Isaiah 11:2 which speaks of sevenfold ministry of the Holy Spirit as related to the Devine Messiah: the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding the Spirit of councel and might, Spirit knowledge and fear of the Lord. Then revelation 1:4-5. From him who is and who was and who is to come…The seven spirits…. Jesus Christ… Ron Roberts says if the seven sports represent the Holy Spirit, we witness each person of the trinity in this one verse and place. Now I see his point for we know John saw God on throne and we know he saw the lamb. And we know the lamb of God is Jesus Christ then I know there is One God but I don’t limit GOD to being able to present Himself different ways that need attending to. I can’t put God in a box and say this is all He can do. I know He sent his son and born of a virgin of flesh and if the spirit of God (if God breathed life into Adam I can only except there was more than earthly elements to make up Adam) I don’t have full knowledge and don’t need to but do accept the fact that to know Jesus is to know The Father and to know The Father I know Jesus and I know that after Jesus returned to The right side of God is when the Holy Spirit came to those who follow Jesus Christ. I know the Holy Spirit to be true and right and does reside with us as Jesus said He would.

    4) country? I too am a American. Born American yet A born again Christian. I too, rely on God and at one time this country did teach scriptures in laws and education etc.. however I watch as slowly at first but quickly now America moves away from the scriptures. I served at one point in my life and can say that my heart breaks as I watch this nation that once taught the prayer of Patrick Henry in full in our schools to now only to be taught he said give me liberty or give me death and no child in our public school is taught it was a prayer. Religion should be kept out because what if another religion got in? This is a horrible deception Christians fell for. Why? Because they were not taught that Benjamin Franklin said that if this nation did not keep scriptures in our gov’t that this nation would fall. I now have realized that the moment I became angry about this and tried to inform and give insights and etc… The more people tuned out. I then realized I am not deceived because I see what God has allowed me to see for I am HIS but others are deceived by the very thing there trusting. The world! If you trust Jesus you see the signs and there is only prayer and hopefulness that people who have eye’s will see before that time God has chosen. Enough said. America now resembles the very country it tried to free itself from.

    Now the tribes from other comments. Jacob had 13 children. (Mentioned in bible) 1 daughter
    12 tribes.
    These 12 tribes are different than the 12 tribes mentioned in revelation.
    The tribe Dan didn’t like the land they were given and took from a peaceful people and was said later to have worshipped idols and are not mentioned as inheriting the seal of God in revelation yet they did inherit land in promised land. Levi was priest and did not inherit land they were to serve God and His temple…. (we are not going to judge here for God already has) they are mentioned in seal of God! That takes Dans place yet there is another left out and they too appear to have done enough to warrant not getting the Seal. However the children of Joseph (2) inherit as well as those of joseph in the promised land (and may have been scorce of Dan’s envy). One of the children will inherit in the seal of God yet other is not mentioned in seal. These are interesting information and I have not had time to do more study here but am so excited when I get alone time to learn more. But it seems that nation of Israel is showed to be judged not only by priest of the nation but individual tribes as well so who gave and who did not at this point is going to be a mute point now for it is the same as then just new or old or old made new..
    Individually you will be judged.
    (Heart) by your spirit and faith/works. You can’t do works without faith for it would be meaningless and faith without works would be judged for not bearing fruit or as in the coins given to three servants.
    We have been given a gift, how we share this gift will be answered to…
    Then we will be judged if we lead. If I raise my child in the wisdom of God but If I do not I am at fault and will be judged, a church leader will be judged if he/she leads THE Lord’s sheep away. Kings/queens/presidents/primeministers will be judged for there works as a whole in there country. But let’s not forget by watching israel alone a nation will be judged. Thank GOD for He saw in Abraham a friend. Thank GOD Noah had faith and kept his family. Thank GOD, that Abraham tried to save more than Lot and His family but sadly some don’t want to be saved but they will be judged. Its for God to decide. Thank GOD is not in my hands…..

  56. Kay says:

    When I say that includes Mary, I mean she was found worthy to carry Jesus but she to died. Physically and was not able to raise herself but she was given to John as his mother because Jesus had to save her too and be her salvation not her son. And I so not believe you pray to anyone but Jesus Christ and he was the only one born of a virgin and Spirit of God. I am not Catholic. But do believe a Catholic could be saved if they know Jesus Christ as there personal savior and ask Him for forgiveness knowing there is nothing they could ever do to save themselves.

  57. ese okposio says:

    Let me start with the not too dificult one, since you have assisted me somehow in the statements you have made.If Angels are messengers and ministers of God and Cherubims are protectors and guardians. I agree. But I ask- were the Cherubims not sent by
    Lord God Almighty to protect or guard? Yes. they were. If they were sent that makes them messengers or servants or ministers. Even though they have wings, it is not this that make them Angels but where they come from, their origin. However The Lord rode upon a Cherub( read Psalm 18:10). They have wings!

    Then the Holy Spirit!
    The verse you quoted John 3:34, It was not stated as the Holy Spirit but the Spirit, in this case it is the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT that is meant, not the PERSON OF the Holy Spirit.
    If you read John 16: 8- 12, you will see what was said of the Holy Spirit, how he would reprove the world of sin and several other issues.
    Most importantly let me cite John 16: 13-14, to show that the Holy Spirit comes from The Father and was not Jesus Christ.
    ” Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear that shall he speak, and he will shew you things to come. He will glorify me. for he shall receive of mine and shall shew it unto you. You may read on to the next verse to understand his last sentence. Clearly Lord Jesus is Savior and Redeemer but He also spoke of another who will come after Him. Who also hails from the Father, just like him. I did state that both are from God the Father sometime last week. Read John 8: 42 and John 15:26

  58. creationwitness says:

    Hi ese,

    Again I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say and that is my fault for not making myself more clear.

    Regarding cherubim; your definition of an angel describes a cherubim and any other being sent by God to send a message, minister or serve. That is a whole lot of beings and that is ok for you. It isn’t for me. I tend to try and define them more clearly. Having said that, your definition can do the same ie. guardian angel, ministering angel etc.

    I never said cherubim did not have wings. Actually they are frequently mention as having them. It is the angels that are mentioned as being angels ie. “an angel” that are never mentioned as having wings. The bible calls a cherub a cherub and an angel an angel. I do too, but regardless, I have to believe that God created all things. To me that includes angels. Now there is scripture that indicates angels were present with God at the time of the creation of the earth and heavens, but that does not tell me they were not created.

    The whole point of mentioning Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost is that if the Comforter is the Holy Ghost then the Holy Ghost can reside in us.

    You see, you had mentioned that angels are not created yes? So if angels and cherubim are the same then Ezekiel as quoted says different. You also said the Holy Ghost cannot reside in us. John as quoted also says differently. So I ask myself, who am I to believe?

    I am not attacking you. I am showing you that I read and understand differently than you and I am showing you why I believe the way I do. I may be found wrong. If so, I would enjoy the study as I don’t think I have a good enough understanding.. That is why I have joined this topic.

    Blessings

  59. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    Scripture clearly states that angels were created. Not only created, but they should praise their creator (Psa 148:2&5). Please explain how and why angels are excluded from Psalms 148:5.

    You claim the angels were not created and that they are divine beings. So, again I ask, what verse or verses do you base your understanding on and what is your reasoning? I gave mine; give yours.

    If you can find verses that support or seem to support your views then you must explain how they do so. If you cannot quote Scripture to explain your understanding then your understanding must come from within yourself.

    Not only must you quote Scripture to support your views, but now you must also quote Scripture to explain how Satan’s angels are divine! They are angels you know!

    While you are at it please explain how is it that “no one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side” (John 1:18). It seems to me that if they lived with God, before God created anything, and they did not see Him, they would have to be blind!

    It is not enough to claim that Scripture supports your views, or to “only advised we read whole chapters and the other books in the bible to get a clearer and deeper understanding”. If you have a clearer and deeper understanding, then explain it. Point out the verses that say angels always existed.

    As for your question “What was the location of the Lord God Almighty when he was creating the heavens and the earth?” I would say there was no such thing as a location before God created locations, there was just God. He created north and south (Psa 89:12).

    I understand that seems strange, but is it any stranger than God always existed; had no beginning? Everything that we know had a beginning and had, or will have, an end and everything has a place as well. We live in a physical world and it is very difficult to comprehend anything else.

    As for me, I still view angels as messengers. I cannot think of a place in Scripture where angels are mentioned that if I substitute the word messenger for the word angel the verse doesn’t make sense. It always seems clear to me. Perhaps you know of such a verse.

  60. ese okposio says:

    Thanks creationwitness for your brevity. I like your submission. Cherub is cherub, and angel is angel. I know and I believe you know too of synonyms! Let me stop there for now for you have summarized it all -our understanding is different. There are reasons but there is a fundamental one for this difference of understanding.
    Let me use the case of the Holy Ghost. In Acts 2:4, it is written “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost…. SO if you hold on to just this verse alone without reading other verses or other Books in the Bible and then maintain that the HOLY GHOST FILLED THEM, then I will say that may not be the best approach. Or that the Holy Ghost filled Jesus Christ as you stated earlier.
    If one reads Acts 1:8; ” But ye shall RECEIVE power, after the Holy Ghost is come UPON you:. It is the power that they RECEIVED when the Holy Ghost came upon them. Please note here the word FILL was not used. I will also want to read this with what the Lord Jesus said in John 16 and other Books. We must separate the Person of The Holy Spirit and The Power of the Holy Spirit.
    So translation and transliteration issues is one of the reasons for differences in opinion or understanding. This is the little I know.

    Then the location of the Almighty during creation… I am yet to get a response from you. This will enable us understand WHAT was CREATED.

  61. ese okposio says:

    Dear astudent.
    You claim there was no such thing as “”location”” before God created locations. Is this statement of yours backed by “scripture”? What is Scripture? The Writer of the Book of Jude made reference to prophecy of Enoch. Have you seen or read this Book? It is not in the Canon. Have you read the other Books of the first published Bible?
    I have asked all these questions not because I want you to read or because I want to claim I know all or so much. You do not need to read all these to know he existed outside of creation and also certain truths or facts about Angels or God’s Spirit.
    Let me share one scripture with you as you desire. Read Heb 9: 14 ” how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the ETERNAL SPIRIT….
    Is this not clear enough proof that the Holy Spirit being ETERNAL was not CREATED. If this holds for the HOLY SPIRIT who we know is most times referred to as the Angel of the Lord, will this not hold for other Angels? Why do we want a diiferent rule or law for the others? Do you want to maintain too that the SEVEN SPIRITS before HIS throne(in Rev 1) who are Angels were created? They were not created.
    If you seek in humility and allow the power of the Holy Spirit guide you, ..you will find.
    I await your view on these matters. Remain blessed

  62. creationwitness says:

    ese okposio,

    If the Holy Ghost can come upon us and can also reside in us, then I have to believe that each case can be different. If scripture cannot be broken then there must be an answer. Another possibility is that if the Holy Ghost comes upon us, maybe his stay is not permanent? As per normal, I carve nothing in stone until I have a clear answer and even then sometimes I take out my eraser. I am of the opinion that without the Holy Ghost one would not have the power.

    Regarding my answer as to God’s location? It remains the same. He was where he was. To me that means where he existed. If you are looking for another answer, then tell me what your answer is. If it can teach me something, I would like to learn.

  63. ese okposio says:

    Yes, I have another answer, my own understanding of the scriptures. He was above the heavens… above the earth, above the spiritual. HE(Holy Spirit) was in the Divine Realm or Region before He was sent,,,before He was born…. before He proceeded out the Father to Help with Creation(The Spiritual and Physical or The Heavens and The Earth). Hence He is called the Helper. He is Eternal and has always being with God the Father. He is Son, Angel, First Born, Lord and even called God! by God The Father Himself in Hebrews 1. Study every verse in this Hebrew 1. Also study Psalm 2, Proverbs 8:22-36. & Isaiah 43:9-11 and see if you recognise HIs Person in these verses.
    After this study you may read further Isaiah 42 and 53 and let us discuss if you recoginse or understand the 2 Persons being described therein.
    Yes I agree you can not have the power without the Holy Ghost. Even when it came in form of a Dove, it was upon our Lord Jesus Christ, not inside of Him or filling him. The Holy Ghost is Divine Being. or a Divine Person. It is power that you will receive when He is present or upon you. That is my understanding. I am open to further discussion about the Person of the Holy Spirit.

  64. creationwitness says:

    Hi Kay,

    Sorry. I wanted to comment on your writing, but found myself caught up in other thought. I found what you wrote very interesting. Thank you.

    In the near past I lived in a region of a developing country that is largely Catholic. I found many of these people without their own bible and the ones that possessed one, did very little reading on their own. The ones that did, where mostly in seminary. Having said all that, I found them to be very “rigid” in their beliefs. If there is any subject they are frequently reminded of it is to be very cautious with anyone teaching anything other doctrine than what they have already been taught by the church. Mother Mary is very dear to them as she is to us, but they have a veiled worship of her.

    When studying with them on proper prayer and idol worship they can become very confused and some become angry. That is the type of anger with violence in the eyes. I tell you this for your own safety.

    One verse I found very useful is one that they frequently paraphrase when asked why they pray “through” mother Mary. They frequently told me that at the wedding when the servants found they had no wine they went to Mary and not directly to Jesus. They may also add that out of respect Jesus will be more likely to listen to his mother’s requests rather than their own.

    (John 2:5 KJV) His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

    Reading the story of the wedding but focusing on the above verse really opens their eyes. I would then turn to the teachings of Jesus given to us on prayer.

    Having said all of the above the most frequent precursor to this conversation is their own question of how to pray properly. It seems no matter how much a person it taught incorrectly, it is in the heart to know there is an underlying problem. The ones that ask this question are the ones that are open to the truth.

    I pray this finds you well.

  65. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    Yes, I do claim, well it is better to say that I understand, there was no such thing as “location” before God made locations.

    Yes, my understanding is backed by Scripture. (Gen 1:1 NIV) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now, if one doesn’t look closely, or if one does not have the Holy Spirit to guide their thoughts, one might think that the word “heavens” means the sky. However, we are told that the sky was created in verse seven and eight and so verse one would have to mean Heaven and not the “sky”.

    Now, for the same reason, that being if one does not look closely, or have the Holy Spirit to guide their thoughts, one might think that the sky in verse eight only means a short distance into space. However, we are told in verses 14 thru 18 that He created the sun, moon, and stars and that He placed them in the sky, that we are told in verse seven and eight He had made.

    Your question “What is Scripture?” is an attempt to undermine my understanding and the understanding of those that read these comments. Such a question does not belong here. It belongs on a Muslem web cite. I greatly doubt the goals of anyone who would ask “What is Scripture?”

    Now, just so that you know I understand what Scripture is I will give “my” definition of it.

    Scripture is the Bible. It is both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is written in many languages and many translations. Sometimes the words that men have used to translate the Bible are different and when looked at from only one position of understanding this causes strife among believers. However, believers have the Holy Spirit to teach them everything (John 14:26) and He uses the Bible as a textbook. Without the Teacher, one cannot understand God’s Word, no matter how hard they try. So, to clarify my answer a bit more Scripture is both the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

    I might add that God loves me and He knows that I want to understand everything, so if I needed a book other than the Bible, He would have made it available already. That is not in Scripture (He would have made it available already) so you are free to disagree and I cannot prove it from God’s Word, but I do not believe everything has to be proved.

    When I have reached complete understanding of the Bible that God has given me, then, if I think it necessary, I might study other books.

    Jude did indeed mention the prophecy of Enoch. He made no mention of a book of Enoch. You invented that one. It is another example of deception. Enoch lived before the flood. What book could have survived the flood? Even if it was chiseled in stone it would have been covered in silt and lost!

    The word eternal in Hebrews 9:14 is a good example of your claim that the Spirit preceded forth from the Father. I did not view this as correct when you first said it, but a true student should consider others views and I did. I can now agree with your way of thinking about the birth of the Holy Spirit. However, it does not change my original understanding. It is like two views, from two locations, of the same stop sign: both are true.

    As for Hebrews 9:14 the word for “eternal” is the same word used in verse 12 and 15 and in those verses it doesn’t mean that redemption existed before Jesus was sacrificed. (Heb 9:12 NIV) He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

    One cannot accurately make the claim the word means always existed (not created), but one can make the claim that it means always will, from that time on exist. To answer your question, no, it is not clear enough proof.

    Your so called understanding places all angels on the same plain as the Holy Spirit and even at the same level as my Heavenly Father. Scripture makes no such claim. As a matter of fact it is just the opposite. You would even have me believe that Satan’s angels are the same as the angels of God! You even Capitalize the word angel!

    I am close to removing any more comments from you. I would now, but this discussion has strengthened my understanding. So far it has not been a total waste of my time: but it is a close call.

  66. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I have also benefited from this discussion.. I hope ese has as well and I hope you do not find it necessary to remove any of his comments.

    ese,

    Here is some more interesting scripture regarding angels being created; It doesn’t say they were created, but it is a good indication they were and anything to the contrary does not exist. At least not that I have seen.

    (Col 1:15 KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    (Col 1:16 KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    (Col 1:17 KJV) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    (Col 1:18 KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Please keep up the study. It is always interesting.

  67. astudent says:

    creationwitness and ese okposio,

    I have to laugh!

    ese mentioned Jude 1:14 where Scripture says Enoch was the seventh from Adam. As I was thinking about this statement I searched Scripture for what it has to say about Enoch.

    I came upon (Luke 3:37&38 NIV) “the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

    When I counted backward to Enoch I found him as only the sixth from Adam!

    Now I am sure there are no errors in Scripture, so this puzzled me. I really enjoy it when I find something in God’s Word that I do not understand, because I know there is something that I am about to learn.

    It did not take much time for the Teacher that lives within me, to point out that Eve was the first to come from Adam and when you add Eve to the count Enoch is indeed the seventh from Adam.

    God has sent me a Counselor to teach me all things and He does!

  68. ese okposio says:

    Dear astudent.
    I do not know where to begin after reading your submission but I intend to be brief. I also have no intention to abuse or insult. Scripture is a collection of sacred writings.It is not the Bible. I have also mentioned on this platform that the 1611 KJV Bible has a collection of 80 books. A religion, called Judaism read the Books we have in the Old testament.
    When we say Isaiah prophesied or Ezekiel prophesied, it means Ezekiel or Isaiah wrote a book that contains prophetic statements. You must be aware writers of Books in the new testament made references to books of the old testament. Please have a deep study again of Jude. It is no invention mine.
    Kindly take a read again of my comments on the Holy Spirit. I never placed any Angel on the same level as the Holy Spirit or God the Father. My submsission is that The Spirit of God is ETERNAL and has always been with God The Father and that he was never created! Please ignore some of the capitals. it is for emphais!

    Dear creationwitness.
    Thanks for your references: I have read and studied 1 col 15-17 sometime before now in KJV and other translations.
    The rendering that states” first born of every creature” or “first born of all creation…” implies the first born was created! The first born then created every other thing. I ask can GOD THE FATHER create THE ONE who has always been with HIM?
    HE PROCEEDETH FORTH OR HE WAS BORN FROM DIVINE TO THE SPIRITUAL BUT NEVER CREATED!

    Angels although not mentioned but you think otherwise. The invisible and visible are thiings in Heaven(spiritual) and Earth(physical). The Heaven is our home, the Spiritual Kingdom. It is not the abode of the angels or that the angels were created there.
    Back to the FIRST BORN in 1 col15-17, if you read and study this same verse in New International Version, International standard version, Bereau Study Bible and Hilman Christian Bible, you have ” first born OVER all creation”. With this verse, you see the FIRST BORN OVER ALL CREATION, The First Born, was not created, being ETERNAL, He was above and supreme over all creation.
    It is based on this understanding that if you read Hebrews 1, the verses in Colossians you cited, Proverbs 8:22-36 and then the opening verses of Genesis when the Holy Spirit moved UPON the surface of the waters….! you will have different view or understanding! Cheers.

  69. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I can only say that is quite remarkable!

    ese,

    I think you misunderstand again.as I agree with everything you are saying, so why will I have a different view?

    I think our only difference is in our understanding of angels. You say they were not created. I say there is evidence to the contrary. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong.

    Don’t think that I don’t read any other translations of the bible. I quote KJV as that is the one I understand and read most often. When I find discrepancy I will refer to as many other resources as I can until an understanding becomes more clear. That includes fasting and prayer.

  70. ese okposio says:

    creationwitness that is the way to go in this final dispensation. When you have doubts refer to other translations. I hope and pray you find the right answers. When the understanding becomes clear your spirit leaps for joy, faith becomes stronger and you share with
    other believers and also the yet to be converted! cheers.

  71. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    I believe I understand why we have such a problem agreeing with each other.

    This blog is a Bible Study by a student. Not a study of any other source.

    I have an analogy that might help everyone when it comes to the study of Scripture.

    There was a group of ultralight aircraft pilots that were attending a fly-in. They had flown there from basically the same area, but they took off at different times, from slightly different places. When the fly-in was over they decided to fly, in a group, to a small airport that was close to their homes. One of them stated that he knew the way home very well and wanted to fly the lead. The other pilots, though far from home, were pretty sure they knew the way also. After all, they had flown from home to the fly-in and although they were in a strange area, they all had compasses to guide them.

    Just so they could all fly in a group they decided to let the one pilot lead. So they took off, one by one and gathered together in the air and then headed for home.

    It did not take long for the pilots to begin to realize that they were headed in slightly the wrong direction, but the leader had boasted that he knew the way and there is always some doubt in everyone’s mind about everything and anything. So the group followed the leader and the error grew by the minute.

    Ultralights, in this Country, are only permitted five gallons of fuel and that limits the time they can fly without landing. Two and a half hours is about the limit for most of them and after a little over an hour one of them decided to follow his own compass, combined with his own experience, and he broke with the group to head in the direction he was sure, in his mind was right.

    It did not take long before the others, one by one, also turned and headed in the right direction. The previous leader, after seeing no one was following, finally rejoined the group and followed the new leader.

    They all landed at the small private airport that was close to their homes and they asked the first leader why he had set a wrong course.

    His answer was hilarious!

    It seems as though he thought that his compass was not reading correctly, so he mounted another compass on his aircraft to check the first one!

    As you know a compass is a small magnet that is attached to a display. It is attracted to the earth’s magnetic pole which causes the display to show the direction of the magnetic pole. If one places two compasses close to each other they tend to point at each other, because they both have magnets. Not directly at each other, because of the earth’s magnetic field. However, neither compass will be accurate.

    I use this story as an analogy. However, it is a true story as I was one of the pilots.

    My point is that we should only have one compass. Our compass for spiritual understanding is the Bible. If one chooses to have more than one compass, then even the true compass will not indicate an accurate reading.

    Your favorite Bible may be a different translation and use different words to display the way, but the direction is the same. North is still north, no matter if the compass uses the letter N or the number zero to indicate north.

    If you place the same importance on some other writing, as you place on the Bible, even the Bible will not show the way. That writing may have been recent or ancient, many might claim it authentic, or many may claim it false: it does not matter. The only thing that matters is it is not the Bible and therefore it will not show the way. It will only confuse the way. Do not place the same importance on anyone’s writing, especially mine, that you place on the Bible.

    I have the perfect teacher (John 14:26), the perfect navigator, that keeps tapping me on the shoulder and pointing toward the only true compass, the Bible, to keep me on the right course.

    ese, you have more than one compass.

  72. ese okposio says:

    Dear astudent you story is very interesting but your conclusion was off target by stating I had more than a compass. Did I refer to any in my submission? Let me use your very statement to make my submission: ” Your favorite Bible may be a different transaltion and use different words to display the way, but the direction is the same”.
    You know quite well that statement is incorrect. If you read the col 1:15-17 that our good friend, creationwitness advised us to read from KJV and the same verses from NIV, SIV, Hilman Christian Bible and Bereau Study Bible, you see a difference that leads to different conception or understanding. A simple difference in the use of “”OF” or “OVER” can lead to different ways, understanding or conception.
    Do not also forget you have over 150 translations of the bible!
    One’s level of intellectual or spiritual understanding is also vital. This also may be a factor in difference of opinion or understanding.

    Please permit me to paraphrase for I intend to be brief. The Lord says that He will write the Laws in our hearts and no man need to teach his neighbor for everyone will know Him. Please read Jeremiah 31-33-35 and Hebrews 8: 9-11.
    Cheers and have a wonderful day!

  73. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    Do you understand anything that I said?

    I said, “ese, you have more than one compass.”

    You seemed to have heard ‘I had more than a compass’.

    The “point” was not about compasses at all!

    I meant that you view many books as equal to the Bible and they are not.

    Why would anyone read the book of Enoch, when they can read the Bible?

    First, you say that I should read many books to understand clearly and then you say there are over 150 translations of the Bible and so I cannot understand any of them!

    Do you understand now?

    It seems to me that you are a very confused man.

    Whether or not you understand, I stand by what I said, “ese, you have more than one compass.”

  74. Kay says:

    Creationwitness,
    Thank you for telling me about your service to the Lord with Catholic believers. I had only one friend who was Catholic and the conversations always ended with she understood Jesus was her savior. I would only ask if she prayed to Jesus as to not hurt our relationship (she was a older co-worker as well as aunt(guardian) to best friend.) She said that of course she prays to Jesus. I never went any further. I find it difficult to see how close Catholics are to the truth yet can be so far from knowing or understanding that Jesus did not want a church created as the Pharisees. I know the Catholic like to claim Peter as there pope however Peter heard what Jesus Christ had to say about NO one comes to the Father but through Jesus. And Jesus also said He is the only way… now I sound judgmental, but I did recognize alot of parallels in the Pharisees and Catholic. Almost as if a Pharisee thought to combine them and maybe in his mind for good purposes but the out come is modern day Pharisees. I always viewed Mary as a very special girl to have been chosen to give birth and care for The Son of God but there is still a knowledge that Jesus said these are my brother and my mother etc… in reference to the many he taught. I will not pray to mary for it would be like praying to Abraham. They are not the ones that saved me. I respect them. I appreciate them and love them for there service to God. But my thoughts our on the cross. My hope is on the Right side of God. I see God has given you a heart to understand and witness and I am thankful for your willingness to work that field. I however would need the warning you gave me because I do believe strongly that without accepting Jesus as a personal SAVIOR by confession to Him and Him alone there is not a relationship. I pray that I never have to hear the words ‘I never knew you’ this is what scares me with the Catholic faith. I also knew a Mormon woman and sweet as she could be again my question to her was did she know Jesus as her savior? Of course! is always the answer. However, from there she would talk holy Bible verses but she knew I refused to talk of her book. I hope I was a good witness but I was very naive. 😉

    And another interesting fact about a resurrected body (Angel related) is Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage but are as the angels which are in heaven.

    I don’t think Jesus Christ is saying Abraham resurrected is a angel (elder maybe) but I do believe Jesus is saying as the angels in heaven are not dead nor is Abraham and as the angels are not married nor will those who are with resurrected bodies be to each other.

    O:-)

  75. ese okposio says:

    Hello Kay.
    I agree with several of the comments you made in your write up. However I want to also say a few things on some of them. In accepting and confessing Jesus as Savior, you must do the Will of His Father or the Will of the One who sent Him as stated in several verses in Scripture by Jesus Himself. By this statement alone, Lord Jesus did not want a cult or religion built around his Teaching or Person.

    The word church is a translation of Greek word, ekklesia. It has several meanings. It may mean congregation or assembly. It also means a group of persons that are organised together for a common purpose and who meet together. Based on the last definition, the word church in today’s world could be interpreted as “” called out ones”. This definition seems likely when you read Romans 16:5…” Likewise greet the church that is in their house…
    Hence my understanding based on this is that Lord Jesus will raise a group of believers or called out ones who believe in Him(Mathew16:13-20). I do not think it is the several denominations with different beliefs and doctrines that He meant in His statement. I have nothing against present day Churches as they are but I am of opinion it is not what Christ meant by His statement.

    Yes I agree no one cometh unto the Father but BY Him, John 14:6. This is because the Father was in Him and He in the Father. He proceeded forth and came from God(John 8:42) and the Father was speaking in Him(John 12:49-50). Hence Jesus gave us the Truth from The Father that can save us.
    This is my own understanding. let me get your view.
    Cheers

  76. ese okposio says:

    My dear astudent. I did not read the Book of Enoch. I stated in my submission that the writer of Book of Jude made reference to the Book of Enoch. The writer Jude, read it. If I read the first published Bible that has 80 Books is there anything wrong with that? If one is Catholic and reads other Books(Apocrypha or Deutrocanonical books)- is that wrong too? I do not think anything is wrong. If you have a different opinion let me know.
    You also make assumptions for me. Where did I compare any book equal to the Bible in my write up? Please read my comments made on June 21, 2016 again. I was very clear. I did not say you should read the Books for understanding.
    It appears you read my comments with built up anger or misconception. Please relax! Let us share experiences, understanding and remain as objective as we can. I think that is the way to go! Dont you think so?

  77. Kay says:

    ese okposio,

    My view, dear ese, is just the simple gospel. I believe the Holy Bible is The the Word of God. I believe that without the Holy Spirit to guide one in the Word they will not gain knowledge or wisdom of God through the Word. And I believe that you can’t have the Holy Spirit guide you if you don’t know Jesus Christ as the Son of God and your SAVIOR. And I believe Jesus Christ is the only way to know the Father, The Almighty. I believe that when I read scripture and pray for guidance I am led to even more wonderful insights I didn’t see the first time I read it. I realize that God is amazing in His mercy of watching us (just a vapor of time) go through our generations of same mistakes over and over. HIS love must be so strong for such a sacrifice, to be mocked, beaten, and killed as He did. The power, strength, and love shown in that one act alone is beyond my capabilities. He could have said, Father don’t forgive these ungrateful sinners but instead he said, forgive them for they know not what they do. Mercy beyond my understanding yet I am humbled and will worship My Heavenly Father even if He was to send me where I deserve I would still praise Him for no being has ever shown such love As Our Savior!

    On the denomination of churches. I will mention the 7 churches in revelation. I know these were actual churches in John’s time however knowing John was writing these words for not only his time but also generations to come. The four beast described as before Gods thrown (usually called cherubium) are described with six wins and eyes before and behind. I know God has created all things and that includes time so the beast, also referred to watchers, would see past and future… knowing this I believe that the 7 churches also references 7 angels in Jesus hand. There is a representation for threes churches. This could mean era’s but it is my conclusion (and this means what my limited mind can comprehend from my studies) that the 7 letters are individual based as well. Each show a setting that can refer to every ‘church’ (organization proclaiming Christianity) and as well the individuals inside. Basically Jesus sees each individual heart in every church. Since this must mean that any who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ must make a decision in giving up their ‘selves’ and follow Jesus Christ OR they pretend to follow but never gave up their own pride in themselves OR they deny God altogether and lead the (self) life that they will and not what God Wills.

    The churches are set up not only for their circumstances at John’s time but in each decision one makes. Some will follow Jesus at first but then because they didn’t give completely (reading the Word, finding truth) of themselves they will lose there candlestick. There once was a woman who wrote she was a Christian but because they don’t accept homosexual activity she wasn’t one anymore. The sad truth to that is she never understood what Christian means. She heard the gospel but never really turned to the gospel. Once you are a Christian (a true Christian) there is no leaving Jesus Christ. There may be a falling if a short period but no Christian that understands what Jesus Christ has done and has experienced the Holy Spirit leading them ever walks away from there breath of life. To loose Jesus Christ would be to a Christian as losing all and everything. This is why she (the woman who walked away) needs prayer to see the truth because her candle stick can be removed and if she doesn’t turn back quick Jesus Christ will come as a thief in the night.

    Then you have churches that sit where the devil sits. This one is interesting. This could mean in a country that doesn’t allow religion but also one that (like in John’s time) was where false gods were worshiped. This church (group or individual) must see horrible things daily, that to a Christian heart, can be difficult to see. Yet they continue there service and do not deny Jesus Christ.

    I could go on but I think you get my meaning. Every individual baby born and grows and somehow has to make a decision in there heart (spirit or what makes you, you) to trust in Jesus Christ and follow him or the choose not to give completely but a little to a certain extent. (that is not enough for the One who gave His All) similar to sitting on the fence. (To be in the world but not of the world) these would describe the churches in revelation however the choice to deny Jesus Christ is always to the individual not family or nation but those that lead a nation or church out family are held responsible if they deny God. But as far as the individual person there salvation is decided in there acceptance in Jesus Christ being the son of God and the truth and life. So if a church prays to mary to talk to her son this would not work for salvation. I can’t ask my mother to ask Jesus to save me or forgive me. I must fall before Jesus Christ myself to be saved. If one falls before Jesus Christ and sincerely ask for forgiveness and salvation it will be given to them.
    Anyway I really hope the two I mentioned do pray to Jesus Christ because Jesus gave Mary to John to take as John’s mother.

    The Pharisee and Catholic share a common problem. They have the Word but don’t recognize the One who came to save them. They both hold to priest when Jesus fulfilled the law as to make all priest to come to Him personally. They both take money for sins for repentance. When nothing a man/woman can give or do can save themselves from spiritual death. Yet if they fall before Jesus Christ he will give them freely living water and wipe there tears.
    Praise Jesus!

  78. astudent says:

    Kay,
    That was powerful and true.

  79. astudent says:

    ese okposio,

    You said, “Scripture is a collection of sacred writings. It is not the Bible.” However, the Bible is a collection of sacred writings and it is Scripture. So, you are quite wrong about both; the Bible and Scripture.

    The Old Testament was basically a prophecy of the coming of Jesus and the New Testament an account of His coming. So, the two Books agree. Christianity is the completion of Judaism. The two religions are really only one religion.

    You said, “When we say Isaiah prophesied or Ezekiel prophesied, it means Ezekiel or Isaiah wrote a book that contains prophetic statements”. Do not say we, because I know that is not an accurate statement. There were many that prophesied in the Old Testament that did not write books. Just to cite two, because there are so many, where is the book of Eldad, or Medad?

    You said, “Kindly take a read again of my comments on the Holy Spirit. I never placed any Angel on the same level as the Holy Spirit or God the Father.” and you capitalized the word angel and then you said that I should ignore the capitalization because it was for emphasis, but you have always capitalized ALL OF THE LETTERS in words that you want to emphasize. You can’t have it both ways and say one time it means something and the next something else: not here, on this blog.

    You certainly implied that you read the Book of Enoch and you implied that I should read it so that I might have the understanding that you claim (imply) that you possess! Then you said, “I did not read the Book of Enoch”! By that I suppose that you also did not read the other Books of the first published Bible.

    Mr. okposio, this blog is a BIBLE study. Read the heading “Bible study by a student”. It is not a “Study of ese okposio’s weird ideas of scripture”.

    You may not change the format of this blog. Because you cannot or will not concentrate on the Bible, and only the Bible, you are not welcome here.

    Goodbye Mr. okposio.

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