I have not written a post for a while, because the events of this point in time are annoying me.

I hear this phrase ‘This great nation’ all of the time, especially now, before an election. But what does God say about this nation?

(Isa 40:17 NIV) “Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing.”

I seem to have a problem with everyone around me. I have determined to believe God and that, quite often, requires that I do not believe man. This is one such example. God says all nations are less than nothing and man says ‘This great nation’! It does not matter to me if the whole world says this is a great nation, I am going to believe my Heavenly Father: it is “less” than nothing.

As I consider Scripture and what God says about this nation, I see that it was formed in rebellion to Him. Those around me say the Founding Fathers were heroes and gave up all that they had so that this nation could be formed, but look what God says about it.

Romans 13:1&2 (NIV) “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”

The King of the Colonies was also the King of England. If one believes God, then God established him as that authority. The Founding Fathers rebelled against the king that God established and they lost everything that they had because they did so. If one believes God it is plain that, in His eyes, the Founding Fathers are zeros, not heroes.

The Founding Fathers would not pay any taxes to England, but God says pay your taxes. Romans 13:7 (NIV) “Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” The Founding Fathers owed taxes to England and disobeyed God by not paying them.

The Founding Fathers went beyond rebellion and disobedience and created a system to attempt to remove God from the process of establishing the authorities!

It seems as though everyone around me believes that we vote someone into office! God says that He establishes the authorities and yet those around me say we establish the authorities! Someone is wrong and I am going to believe God, not man.

This is a great example of the blind leading the blind! If God said man should choose the authorities I must have missed it. Can someone point that verse out?

Then I have to ask myself, “If I prayed, would God give us a great president?” But then I have to ask myself “Why would He?” If we error by not believing God and try to do it our way, then why would He reward us? Isn’t it about like a bank robber asking God which bank to rob?

I was physically born in the United States, but later I was spiritually born in the Nation of God. I died to this world and everything in it. I am still here, but now I serve as an ambassador to this world. A proper ambassador would not meddle in the affairs of the country that they are assigned to and I strive to be a proper ambassador, so do not think that I am trying to influence you in any way.

I will not vote and I recently had a brother ask me “If everyone did as you do, how long would this country last?” and I must say that it will last as long as God wants it too. The only difference it makes to me is whether or not I believe my Father.

I am not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet, but I feel like one. Everyone around the prophets in the Old Testament said they were wrong, but they believed God and God credits belief as righteousness.

I believe God.

26 Responses to THIS GREAT NATION!

  1. Liferestored says:

    Well I know you must miss me because you tempt me to comment: I also believe it is God who puts rulers in place as scripture sais. I also have a problem voting due to this. However, I think your spiritual pride clouds your vision. I believe it is arrogant to believe God could not work in the hearts of a nations people causing them to vote somone in power. The opposite is also true of evil nations. God may just use there hardened hearts to put a leader in place. People of Germany voted for Hitler to lead their nation to greatness! Do I think God picked Hitler or “allowed” Hitler to be Germany’s chancellor due to the hearts of the German people? I believe both cases God would be installing a leader and I believe the latter example to be true. I also believe it to be arrogant to believe God did not put rebellion in the hearts of Americas fore fathers to become Americas original leadership thus placing the leader of America. I mean why not? England’s church was corrupt, and brutal. I often warn my brothers to not put God in a box because you feel like you understand Him better. There may just be more ways God puts leadership over nations than you understand. To believe otherwise is a trap of the enemy and pride. Just my two cents my brother.

  2. Kay says:

    I feel your frustration…..

    + voting- unless you live in certain states the vote doesn’t really matter. However, I have said that if all people would not cast a vote it would send a message to congress that new laws need to be established to pick candidates, for the one we have is corrupted.

    + Great nation- I believe God wanted there to be great nations but time after time man failed. The forefathers wanted a great nation and after reading the scriptures they claimed that the only way a nation can survive is to build the foundation on THE Scripture of God. George Washington left a very warn Bible with his proclaimed salvation from the blood of Jesus Christ. I have read a timeline of England starting in the 300 AD. The people were not aloud to read the Bible on their own. (Mostly Catholic) read in Latin many people didn’t understand that they could talk to Jesus and by not having the scriptures to study on their own would be devastating to you or me. Then when a man dared to go study the Word in Israel there is no doubt God gave him the ability to memorize for he was only allowed to view the hebrew/greek/latin writing for a short period of time before he wrote as much as he could in English before he was martyred. Then another picked up where he left off. What is fascinating is that today with 20/20 vision we can compare the versions and the degree of accuracy is amazing with the amount of time passage. The detail obviously is of the Holy Spirit. Now the problem is that the nation had people who wanted to read there own bibles because it brought them closer to God. I believe that God heard there prayers to be free to read and worship Him. So I believe that the colonization of America was a way for queen Elizabeth to please both sides. What happen here shortly after that was a high ranking officer of the English court was killing innocent people in a village (put them all in a building and burned them alive among other atrocities) this officer then sent England false audits but his real audit was claimed to be stolen while in delivery to parliament secretly. Then as postal service master Benjamin Franklin is called to parliament to answer for the actions of America but did not say a word of disrespect yet was interrogated shamelessly. There was more to the freedom of America than taxes. American colonists were paying but England officers were embezzling. After proving this by said real audit confiscated and the writings of the many killed by the diary of the officers America had legal grounds to declare independence. There was the English soldiers in Savannah Georgia and Virginia that had killed citizen’s on the streets that had been witnessed and recorded. This began the revolution war but ended with England excepting the declaration if independence on the valid reasons of maltreatment from there officers. With all of that I do believe that God was in all of that for this nation to become such a fertile land although not perfect did make Christian morals and laws by the 10 commandments which if you study those eras of generations were blessed.. However when the gov’t took the law and made amendments to disobey the commandments of God. The beginning of America was Christians teaching all children and grammar books were of creation and salvation. We began right but just like King David blessed but in the end turned to sin and this is were punishment comes. I too am frustrated and have been angry. Jesus is working with me to love others and to separate myself from my need to fix them. I know now that you and I need to just pray for God’s will. Time is coming in birth pains and there will be judgement but not by you or me but God alone.
    So just smile and look at your brother and forgive him and when he wants to discuss voting with you just say “I’m praying about it” and if he continues you can say “it’s a personal relationship with Jesus.”

    + prophet- all those people in the Bible have many different characters. Just looking at Jacobs 12 boys tell us that God uses each one. Joseph forgave is brothers for selling him. For if they hadn’t God couldn’t have used Joseph to save the Israel people from starvation. Abraham’s life can’t be more different than Daniel’s yet both had lights to shine. Jesus uses branches bearing fruit. It will be shaken. Each branch bears fruit but not the same way. Your character tends to be in a black or white and no grey. I too am described that way however sometimes I want to analyze and fix everyone and God laughs at me because only He can fix them and He is still fixing me…
    Be Still And Know He is Lord!

  3. astudent says:


    We are not far apart in our understanding. I also believe God choose Hitler to be the ruler of Germany (Rom 13:1). However, I do not agree with the idea that God put rebellion in the hearts of America’s Founding Fathers. God does not tempt anyone.

    James 1:13-15 (NIV) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”

    The Founding Fathers were tempted to keep their money, instead of paying the taxes that God said they owed and they were tempted to claim ownership of the land they lived on: which belonged to the King of England. They were tempted by their own evil desires, just as Scripture says.

    As you know I like everything to be exact. The Colonies did not rebel against the Church of England. They rebelled against the King of England. They fled from that Church, as they should have, but they fought the king and many Colonists and Englishmen died as a result.

    I see that you are trying to fit the two ideas into one. That being God appoints the authorities and we vote the authorities into office. I tried to do the same and I believe both are true, even though, at first, it seems an oxymoron.

    I reached the conclusion that it is wrong to vote, because God said that He establishes the authorities. However, I believe that He lets us choose the authorities, by voting, and then He places them in office. He is giving us enough rope to hang ourselves and we have already done so. We are just at the end of the rope, kicking and jerking, as we slowly strangle.

    You seem to separate this nation from evil nations, but I don’t see the difference.

    Almost all of my brothers view this government as an agent of good, but that is not the duty of a government. This government, as all governments, are agents of wrath, not agents of good (Rom 13:4). The one running for office tells everyone how good he or she will make things, but that is not really their job.

    I have to laugh at the thought of anyone explaining how much wrath they will bring on the people!

    Now, what do you mean “spiritual pride”? Do you think that I am proud of the insight that God has given me? If that is true, then yes, I am proud of the understanding that God has given me. It is not me that I am proud of, but it is my Father’s Word that swells my chest.

    Because it is said that God hates the proud, and it is said over and over, we get the impression that all pride is wrong, but is it?

    Is pride in our Father wrong? Would it be wrong to have pride in understanding the Word of God? Didn’t God give us the Holy Spirit to teach us all things and then when He teaches us something should we be ashamed of it?

    Galatians 6:3&4 (NIV) “If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,”

    See what the early disciples said about there own pride. (2 Cor 5:12 NIV) “We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.”

    I have not intentionally lauded myself with anything that I have written. My goal is to praise our Father and to learn everything that I can about Him. I do not even reveal my name for fear that someone might praise me, instead of praising my Father.

    When I go back and read previous posts I know that what is written came from the Spirit that lives within me and not really from me. I am only a sinner and not worthy even to be called proud. However, I am grateful that you accused me of having spiritual pride, because it made me consider your opinion.

    You see I know you and I know that what you wrote was for my good and not for bad.

    If I boast, I boast about my Father, but I might sometimes even boast about a brother such as you! (2 Cor 7:4 NIV) “I have great confidence in you; I take great pride in you. I am greatly encouraged; in all our troubles my joy knows no bounds.”

  4. Liferestored says:

    Astudent. You are right when you say I only say this for your good. As I truly believe your love and zeal for our Father is amazing and I pray it never fades. When I say you have spiritual pride regarding this matter, I should say you come across as very judgmental to opposing views (even from you brothers and sisters in Christ). Do they not pray and receive wisdom from God as you do? Many of our forefathers were amazing men of God. Did they not seek wisdom? How can you say they were not led by the Holy Spirit? How can you say “voting is wrong” if other believers in your life believe they are led by God to vote? God may just lead them to vote for someone who they know will not have a chance because for them it is growth in some way. A stand for what is the right thing and not necessarily done in the right way-yes?We are all sinners and imperfect. None of us come close to understanding a fraction of His being or his compassion for us. Sometimes your posts come across as something I do not believe you mean them to be. I have had the same spirited discussions with my brothers conserning voting. Many of them voted for Dole, McCain, Romney. And I love to ask them who got it wrong- them or God? Of course this is followed by jousting of words. I do not hold anything against them (or judge them) for voting. I love them. If they tell me our Father wants them to vote, I believe them. I only know in my heart, I am at peace with God not voting. As for America. I can tell you brother their are nations where the enemy has a stronghold. There are parts of our country he does also, however there is places in this country the Holy Spirit and angles have the stronghold. I have lived in many places and been in many countries and there are evil nations. America is not one of them. Not yet. We may be slowly working our way but not yet. I have seen evil nations. No comparison with the destruction, death, brutality, rape people suffer daily in those places. The enemy truly has dominion in these places. So what I choose to do is pray for our leaders. I pray for President Obama. I will pray for Trump or Clinton. I will pray for my brothers. I will pray for you as my bother.

  5. creationwitness says:

    Another wonderful conversation with much to think about. Thanks to you all.

    The way the system works is that you have the right to vote. It is not mandatory. No one should look down on another for voting their conscience. That conscience may be to vote by not voting.

    We don’t have to follow what is anti Christ. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.

    My prayer remains with God. I choose Jesus Christ.

  6. astudent says:


    I am sorry for the late response, but it seems a pattern for me.

    As you can see I don’t believe your vote or my vote means anything. If God chooses the president and He says He does (Romans 13:1) then my vote doesn’t mean a thing. Perhaps my prayer does, but because I believe Scripture I cannot believe in this system of government.

    I have tried to reconcile democracy with Romans 13:1 and was not successful. When I used to vote I had an almost 100% failure rate. By that I mean I seemed to never vote for the winner. Because I have reached the point where I totally agree with Romans 13:1, I see that I was usually opposing my Father and not helping at all. Well He doesn’t need my help, but I think you see what I mean.

    It seems to me that it would, and does no good to send a message to the corrupted, as they already know that they are corrupted. They acquired the power that they have by being corrupt and they are not going to give it up.

    I believe that God does want a great nation and I believe He has created it. It exists in Heaven and it has a King, not a president.

    The forefathers of this country had the same Scripture that we have, Romans 13:1&2 was there, just as it is now. One cannot build on the Word of God, when God says do not do this. He plainly told them not to rebel and to pay their taxes, but they did not listen.

    This is a system where man chooses the authorities using money and lies to do so. It is flawed and was from the start.

    I see that you have studied the history of this country. I have also and found a different understanding of the events that lead to the rebellion. Though I found the same oppression of the believers in England by the Church, I found very little oppression to the Colonies from England. Knowing mankind I am sure that some of what you said about the English authorities is correct.

    It doesn’t surprise me that we have read different accounts of the formation of this Country. History is written by the victors and it is always written with bios. I have an English friend that grew up in England and one time, when we were discussing the sad state of affairs of this Country, I asked him what did his history books say about the Revolutionary War. His answer astounded me! He said “nothing”. He had the impression that England just gave us our freedom!

    Doesn’t anyone see that all of this talk of transgressions of England against the Colonist is only an excuse to rebel against God? Is there any excuse or reason that would justify rebellion against our Father? If all English people lied to the colonist, would that be a good enough reason to rebel against God? (Mat 5:11) If the English used the law to claim what the Colonist had, would that be a good enough reason to rebel against God? (Mat 5:40) If the English solders beat the Colonist, would that be a good enough reason to rebel against God? (Mat 5:39)

    We are told to pray for our enemies, not to fight them. (Mat 5:43-48)

    Kay, I cannot just say nothing about this government and then walk away. I say what I say, because no one else is. Even worse my brothers are saying it was right to rebel against our Father! They say it because they have been taught it from birth, but they have been born of the Spirit and now they should view everything, and that includes this Country, with the eyes that God has given us.

    I cannot forgive anyone for voting, because by voting they have done nothing against me. Their sin is against our Father, not against me. What would my Father think of me if I did not say what I say? (Ezekiel 3:20)

    Are we not all watchmen and women? If we see evil are we not charged with the responsibility to warn our people? Why does everyone think that I sin by being bold enough to say that they are wrong and God is right? I did not write Romans 13:1&2 or Daniel 4:32. I only claim they are true. It is not me that my brothers oppose, but it is the Spirit that lives in us. That is the One that wrote Romans and Daniel.

    Kay, at the risk of creating pride in you, I see that you are a true Christian and I enjoy your comments. There are few that are genuine and we do not have to agree about everything, but we should all air what we think, without condemning each other

  7. astudent says:


    I am amused! Really!

    You say that I come across as very judgmental to opposing views, but are you not judging me when you say that?

    Let me ask you some questions that I ask myself quite often. How do I phrase an opposing view without making it clear that it is an opposing view? Does our Father want us to be deceptive?

    How does anyone learn from a discussion if both only agree? If they agree there is no difference and therefore nothing is learned by either. Isn’t that where the phrase ‘preaching to the choir’ comes from?

    What is wrong with disagreeing? If I see a verse, verses, or understanding that is different than the normally accepted view, why would it be wrong to express it?

    If I see the world wrong, is it right just to keep quiet and say nothing? There are many that say what others want to hear. If I keep quiet then who will speak up?

    Have I ever said, “This is my word”? Haven’t I always said or implied “This is what God says”?

    How can we learn if we always agree? If we always agree then we already know everything. Do we know everything?

    Now, here is an opposing view to what you said.

    I do not understand that I am being lead by the Holy Spirit. If I were being lead by the Spirit I would not sin. It seems to me that the Spirit is behind me, not ahead of me. He teaches me from Scripture, but He lets me go ahead and when I make a mistake I hear His voice from behind, chastising me. The Voice says, “You should not have done that. Do you not remember what I said?”

    When we have been perfected the Spirit will indeed lead and not teach. We will hear the Spirit before we sin.
    (Isa 30:21 NIV) Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”
    As it is now, some times I do not hear the Voice in time to go the right way.

    I can say that the Founding Fathers were not led by God, because they rebelled against God. The Word of God says, (Rom 13:1&2 NIV)”Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.” They rebelled and they got what they deserved, just as Scripture says.

    I must have been chosen to disagree. I believe this Nation is just as bad as all the other nations. I am not sure it is right to say Nations sin, as it is the people that make up the nations that sin. Sins are affronts against God and this Nation certainly sins.

    I try to view things as God does, not as man does. I think they are quite different at times.

    It seems to me that a nation or people that want God separated from them (separation of Church and State), is a bigger affront to God than a nation that mistreats the people.

    That is not meant to lessen the sins of nations that physically abuse the people. Only to point out that it would remove all chance for the people to turn to God, if it was really possible to separate Church and State.

    Which would be worse for a man, a Christian that is killed and therefore sent home, or a man that never hears about our Father? Which man really dies? Which would be the greater sin in God’s eyes? The nation that kills a Christian (which is not really possible) or the nation that would keep the Word of God from the people and in doing so, really kill them?

    I agree that we should pray for the politicians that control this Country. Pray that they will come to their senses and turn to God, to be healed. However, that will not save this Nation, as there will be someone who steps up to take their place.

    I said that I was amused and now I am laughing aloud. When you pray for me, pray that I will continue to air the views that seem right to me and wrong to others, so that we can all learn!

    When I pray for you, I will pray that you see the humor in my comment and not get too mad at me.

  8. astudent says:


    I agree. Sometimes I even agree! Now, that is rare; isn’t it?

  9. Kay says:

    I love these discussions. They help me see views I did not see before. I may not agree with all but that’s OK for it is my Shepherds voice I listen for.
    The famous story told to many:
    A man on a cliff ask God to save him.
    Water is rising and he will surly die if he doesn’t find a way off.
    A helicopter came and when they sent down the cable the man said “no, my God will save me!”
    A boat came and when they said grab the rope we will pull you in; the man said “no, my God will save me!”
    A experienced hiker said “follow me I will show u higher ground” the man said “no, my God will save me”
    When the man lost his physical life he asked God why when he called did his God whom he had faith in did not save him.
    God answered, I sent a three servants to you but you would not let them help you.

    I know this is not a true story and not written in the Bible. I believe in scripture completely. However as Paul wrote I can even take Paul’s word and discern it to scriptures.

    “Beloved ,do not believe every spirit, but test the spirit to see whether they are of God, because many false prophet’s are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God… every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. And every every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John chapter 4
    (Then my favorite part)
    Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the World.
    They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
    We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us. Hearby know we the spirit of truth, and spirit of error.

    This is a very powerful message. And is only understood by those who hear Jesus Christ. The bible can be read and memorized but still one without the Spirit of God does not understand and can have the knowledge (mans) but not have God’s wisdom given through His Spirit within those who trust in Jesus Christ. I always add the Christ because its important that when one confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh they are those who understand Christ means the messiah the one sent to save us. And not as islam faith believes in for they believe Jesus was just a profit. This would mean that if a muslim who may know the Bible and speak academically perfect is still someone we would know and identify with the world and lacking God’s Wisdom.

    I take pride ‘in’ my SAVIOR alone. However my ‘self’ will trick me into thinking I did something but the Spirit of God always grounds me. Praise God! For always will HE correct me and make known my error.

    When the Spirit speaks it is beyond a feeling and no words can do it justice.

    With that said I see connections when I study with eras of generations. Not exactly the same mistakes yet similar.
    In example:
    I use to wonder why God mentioned slavery in old testament. But because I had a child’s mind but with faith at 11 years old I just trusted God will let me know when I see Him. However by humbling myself to my ignorance at 35 and reading what the first meaning of slavery was I realized God answers all questions if we are willing to seek Him. And sometimes it comes from hearing many versions of beliefs but when its the right answer you know and its a eye opening view that in your soul is at peace.
    I read again as a adult about Jacob serving 7 years for Leah although it was supposed to be Rachel so he served another 7 years. As it turns out serving 7 years in the beginning was the slavery many use in today’s ‘world’ view against God. Not having the ability or knowledge that those that gave up service in order to pay for something is not slavery against someone’s will. It is the same as signing a contract to work for a company for said amount of years with a no-compete clause. (Mortgage, driver’s license, military service)
    When Moses mentioned a price in his time these were not thought as against their will as slavery was known in American history. THIS was a job as we know it with a payment coming or prepaid. (They even had a year of debt forgiveness no matter where the service was for.)
    In using this example we see where we as human’s misinterpret and until we have a wisdom opened for us from hearing from the spirit, we really are blind. In order to know what its like to grow up in Israel I would have to ask one who grew up in Israel. However I would like to hear from one ‘in the Spirit of God’ its most likely I will hear from one of the spirit of the world. My meaning is when it comes from one who is a member of the Body of Christ there is a understanding even if they don’t always see things the same way but the disciples did talk to those who were of the world in hopes if leading them to Jesus Christ. This means they had to discern what was of God and what was of World.

    I believe this is what our forefathers were trying to do. I believe they were committed to England at first but then there was something leading them to build a nation that allowed anyone to own land. If I tie this in with where the tribes of Israel are at that time I see that there all over the world. Still blessed yet not excepted in the nations. (Including England) God makes way for His People. And although you and I blessed with the Holy Spirit and knowing we will be forever with Jesus. God still chose Abraham’s grandson Jacob to be His People. Jewish flourished in America which (because after taking the promise land from ottoman empire (prominent muslim faith) England did not want the area and the United nations (was known by another name) backed by Russian rule encouraged along with U.S. (for different reasons) said to give land back to Israelite. If America had not been formed the Jewish nation today could not form. What is interesting though is when the nation formed America began its decline from having God’s will in mind. (I.e. schools, commandments from laws, abortion, sexual immorality…..) yet as America falls in integrity the one’s ‘in the know’ of Jesus Christ and prophecy see Israel grow in integrity. And the world is jealous.
    You said:
    It seems to me that a nation or people that want God separated from them (separation of Church and State), is a bigger affront to God than a nation that mistreats the people.
    I agree with you, but this separation was in protection to the American Christian. There were Catholic churches moving in and this became a problem with worry that one faith would take over gov’t and then would disallow personal faith. There intentions were good and in the mindset of protecting however, evil found loopholes and then slowly like a seed grew to devour and one very smart yet unwise man saw a way to turn the nation. Teach the next generation. Take away the good seed and plant the next generation with lies and omit the the truths. I have a article that I believe is the most well written articles of all times but the more you research the sad truth is that our true history is being re-written and although I have always been thankful to have been born American because I was raised to believe ‘one nation under God’ was where I wanted to be. If they take God away for a false god then my hopes are for as many as possible will turn from there wicked ways.

    I can’t vote because I can’t vote for abortion in any way. I can’t vote for someone to marry anything other than one man to one woman.
    To vote for one to represent me they would have to know and work for Jesus Christ. As like when Paul would send Timothy to a church. Timothy was in the body of Christ and Paul too so this would be someone to represent another for we all follow Christ. You know by their fruit. Mr. Obama can say he is Christian but his fruit show differently. He is of the world. This is why we can’t vote. This is why the vote doesn’t work. The body of Christ do not have a representative and must endure the seat of satan for both candidates are of the world. (Seat of satan with church pergomos)

    I’m sorry so winded but I am passionate about God’s word. He is after all the Alpha the Omega and the Great I AM!

    Article I mentioned below…..

    Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.

    It is the same congress that formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation.

    Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution, is still remembered for his words, “Give me liberty or give me death.” But in current textbooks the context of these words is deleted.

    Here is what he said: “An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death.” 

    These sentences have been erased from our textbooks.

    Was Patrick Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.”

    Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well- worn Bible: “I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also.”

    Consider these words from George Washington, the Father of our Nation, in his farewell speech on September 19, 1796: 

    “It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

    Was George Washington a Christian? Consider these words from his personal prayer book: “Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb and purge my heart by the Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thy son, Jesus Christ.”

    Consider these words by John Adams, our second president, who also served as chairman of the American Bible Society.

    In an address to military leaders he said, “We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” 

    How about our first Court Justice, John Jay?

    He stated that when we select our national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select Christians. “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

    John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams, was the sixth U.S. President. 

    He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”

    Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”

    In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: “The congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

    William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the “Schoolmaster of the Nation.”

    Listen to these words of Mr. McGuffey: “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. >From it are derived our notions on character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.”

    Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first.

    Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the scriptures: 

    “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).”

    For over 100 years, more than 50% of all Harvard graduates were pastors! 

    It is clear from history that the Bible and the Christian faith, were foundational in our educational and judicial system. However in 1947, there was a radical change of direction in the Supreme Court.

    Here is the prayer that was banished:

    “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on Thee. We beg Thy blessings upon us and our parents and our teachers and our country. 


    In 1963, the Supreme Court ruled that Bible reading was outlawed as unconstitutional in the public school system. The court offered this justification: “If portions of the New Testament were read without explanation, they could and have been psychologically harmful to children.” 

    Bible reading was now unconstitutional , though the Bible was quoted 94 percent of the time by those who wrote our constitution and shaped our Nation and its system of education and justice and government.

    In 1965, the Courts denied as unconstitutional the rights of a student in the public school cafeteria to bow his head and pray audibly for his food. In 1980, Stone vs. Graham outlawed the Ten Commandments in our public schools.

    The Supreme Court said this: “If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments were to have any effect at all, it would be to induce school children to read them. And if they read them, meditated upon them, and perhaps venerated and observed them, this is not a permissible objective.” 

    Is it not a permissible objective to allow our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments?

    James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: “We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” 

    Today we are asking God to bless America. But how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him?

    Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country’s Christian roots. I encourage all who read and agree with the words herein, share it with others, so that the truth of our nation’s history may be told.

  10. Liferestored says:


    I am pleased you are amused. And of course I am not mad or angry at you brother. I love you. I will pray for you. Unfortunately, I fear you still lack understanding and I know I have “hit a nerve” as we have had this discussion in the past. You congratulate yourself on knowlage and pride yet you lack grace. When a person grows closer to God, he/she is humbled. It is one thing to say “I am humbled” as you will. It is another thing to be humble due to our Fathers love and grace. As other posts I have commented on, you lack grace. Is this to difficult for you to understand? Do you see you have fallen into a trap of the enemy? Of course we will disagree at times. What I will never do is be so arrogant to say I could never forgive a brother for voting. (As you do). Do you hear yourself? You like to report how much sin our founding fathers were in because they rebelled against England. I wonder what you would do if it became LAW in America to vote. Would you rebel against America or God?

    Again, I never mind disagreement. I love it. I disagree with brothers and sisters at times on many issues. Never once do I feel like God is saying to tell them they are in sin and I could not forgive them. You do this. This is my problem with you brother.

    Never once have I said America is without sin. Just the mere fact you say there is no difference between America and other nations reveals your naivety and immaturity. Maybe you should pray God opens your eyes through some experience and empathy instead of reading and “puffing up”.

    You say:

    I try to view things as God does, not as man does. I think they are quite different at times.

    This is great. Lay down your life for your friends and stop judging them.

    Nations are nothing. Gods kingdom is everything. I have no issues with you posting your beliefs. Not at all. If I did, I would not take the time to read, reflect and comment. I love it. So, thank you brother. I hope I was not to harsh in what I believe.

  11. astudent says:


    It seems as though God has blessed me with the ability to view almost everything from a different angle.

    The famous story, when viewed from a worldly prospective, makes sense, but the conclusion reached does not fit a spiritual understanding.

    Spiritually God did rescue the man. He brought him to Heaven where all is right. The ultimate rescue! The man will never need to be rescued again! The man could have allowed any one of the three to save him from the water, but his faith prevailed.

    If I were to write the story the last lines would be, God answered, I sent a three servants to you but you would not let them help you. Your faith was in me and not in them. Well done, good and faithful servant.

    I agree with you when you say, “I believe they were committed to England at first but then there was something leading them to build a nation that allowed anyone to own land.” But I would say that it was Satan that was leading them and it was greed to own the land that they lived on, but was not theirs.

    I do not agree with your statement, “If America had not been formed the Jewish nation today could not form.” God wanted Israel to be reformed and America, or no America, it would have been accomplished. If God wants something nothing can stop it.

    Funny that you should mention George Washington as he did not sign the Delectation of Independence. You know that it really doesn’t matter if he was a Christian or not. It is wrong to rebel against God no matter your religion. Christians still sin, but we sin less when we understand what God wants from His children.

    Kay, your words are many, too many for a one track mind as mine to comment on. Most of what you quoted came from books written by man. There is only one Book that is true and it is the only book that matters. The Bible says that it wrong to rebel against the governing authorities, any government authority, as He established every one of them. That is what the Founding Fathers did. It doesn’t matter if they were Christians, or if they thought they were right, or if the authorities were cruel, or anything else. It was wrong and no amount of explanation of why anyone thinks it was right can make it so. We cannot claim this Country has Christian roots when it was born in rebellion to God!

  12. astudent says:


    I am afraid you misunderstand me. Perhaps I am not speaking plainly enough; even though speaking plainly sometimes riles others.

    You say, “What I will never do is be so arrogant to say I could never forgive a brother for voting. (As you do). Do you hear yourself?”

    Yes, I hear myself and I understand myself, but you neither hear me, nor understand what I said.

    I said, “I cannot forgive anyone for voting, because by voting they have done nothing against me. Their sin is against our Father, not against me.” Read and consider the last part, “They have done nothing against me”.

    If someone strikes me and then asks for forgiveness, It would be right to forgive them. But if they strike you and ask for forgiveness from me, what have they done to me that I could forgive them of? If they strike me and you forgive them, not only is it not your place to forgive, but it cheapens forgiveness.

    The truth is if someone strikes me only I and God have the power to forgive them. I, because they struck me and God, because they struck one of His children. It is no one else’s business.

    Scripture says much about forgiveness, but it only says if someone does something to you forgive them. (Mat 6:14, 18:21, Mark 11:25, Luke 11:4)

    Do not think that I do not pray for those who vote. I pray for you, because you vote.

    It seems to me that you do not like what I say and you have begun to attack my character instead of presenting verses to prove your understanding.

    Don’t brother, I am imperfect, a sinner that has a Savior. I confessed this to the very God of the universe and if I confessed it to Him I certainly will not hesitate to confess it to you.

    Tell me, what has my character have to do with what I said about this Country and about who chooses the authorities? Are we not all sinners? If we have to be sin free in order to speak, then who but God can speak?

    You say, “Just the mere fact you say there is no difference between America and other nations reveals your naivety and immaturity.” But I did not say it, God did (Isa 40:17 NIV) “Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing.” I just agreed with God and repeated what He said. Did He say America was different, or did He say “all nations”?

    You infer that America is different from other nations and then say, “Nations are nothing. God’s kingdom is everything” Either America is different or America is nothing, I cannot see how the two can be reconciled. Especially when God says all nations are less than nothing.

    This Nation is not God’s Nation. It is only a Nation of this world and less than nothing to God. God’s Nation is Zion and we were born into Zion when, at baptism, we were born a new person.

    (Psa 87:4-6 NIV) “I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me– Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush — and will say, ‘This one was born in Zion.'” Indeed, of Zion it will be said, “This one and that one were born in her, and the Most High himself will establish her.” The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: “This one was born in Zion.” Selah”. (The register of the peoples is the Book of Life.)

    If you are inclined to exalt a Nation, make it Zion, not America.

    You say, “I wonder what you would do if it became LAW in America to vote. Would you rebel against America or God?

    My Father tells me to obey the government and if the government made it a law that I must vote, I would have to vote in order to obey my Father. Until they removed the “write in choice” I would write in God and I would not be rebelling against either.

    By the way, it would not surprise me if the government did make it a law that we all must vote. If they knew God frowned on man attempting to bypass Him and chose their own authorities they certainly would make it a law.

  13. creationwitness says:


    Sorry, I missed your comment. Yes, it is rare to agree, but it goes to show that we don’t always have to disagree to learn something. I agree with much of what you say and quite often also learn something new.

    To all,

    The issue I see here is not what has already happened as it cannot be changed and we really only know what we have been told. There are many indications though, that the United States is far from what we are led to believe and being taught in school. We only have to look at the country’s favorite idols to ascertain that ie. Statue of Liberty (slavery), Washington (Babylon) Monument etc.,,

    I am not U.S. citizen, but almost became one having resided many years in my youth. I don’t want to watch it fall apart any more than any other, but I have to say it’s happening and it’s happening fast. No matter what history told me in school, I maintain that there is and always has been a fundamental flaw with it. We all know what happens when a house is built on sand.

    Having said that; we also know the rest of the world is not fairing much better. The U.S. just seems to be leading the pack.

    What to do? Follow God. The Spiritual House God is building will never crumble. It is a nation, a house, a people, a body. One that we can be proud to be a citizen of.

    The remaining stones are being placed now. Let’s not drop any.

    I pray this finds all well. God Bless.

  14. Kay says:

    I agree that all we need is Our Heavenly Father. Yet Our savior still says the Great Commandments are to Love God with All our hearts, mind, and soul. Then Jesus said love thy neighbor more than thyself, and by keeping the these two the others are obeyed.

    I have not mentioned Bible verses however this is caused by my physical mental abilities. I read the Word often yet reciting or memorization word for word is beyond my brain capabilities. (I don’t use a bible online, but read articles of others within my bible studies. I.e. I was reading Mathew 23 yesterday and looked up a question in comparison to what I felt the Bible was telling me about Jerusalem and found a article on it by that I felt went well with my study, however testing it to the Word (my actual bible)

    I think it is important to comment here that as a sinner forgiven only by the Grace of my savior Jesus Christ, I still make mistakes. I take a wrong path, this does not mean I did the bidding of evil. It means I as a imperfect human needing my Heavenly Father always, makes the unwanted, yet necessary decision to a choice in life. Do I wear the blue dress or the red dress? I prefer the white robe but that is for the wedding feast. I have to get dressed. I still haven’t decided what color to wear. I ask God. He says, (in His word) why do you worry of what you wear? Doesn’t God dress the lilies better than Solomon? So I don’t worry but still have to make a choice on red or blue. I grab one color and off I go trusting in the Lord to keep me through out my day. No matter which color I chose God is going to use it for His Glory for I am His.

    If I ask God to save my soul, my heart, my spirit this I know no one else can do. If I ask God to save me from water then how dare I refuse God’s servant sent to save me physically. God uses His messengers. If by refusing one we run the risk of offence. However my faith in God really should be known to God. I know God knows my thoughts better than I do. I know when I have to use the restroom and sounds may come out, that I can’t hide them from God. He knows my secret places. I am actually comforted by this. He uses my faults and makes them good. When I stumble He sends angels to help me as to protect and sometimes guide me back to the path I was supposed to stay.
    My faith is in God alone but who am I if God chooses to send Saul who killed men for Blasphemy against His God; yet God sends this man to teach to all he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. (On road to Damascus to kill for God!) Remember pharoh did not let God’s people go. So God used Moses. Here is a man very meek and can not speak well but God used him to rebel for God had a plan for His people. The people failed but intentions were to follow God but well……
    I will not assume that the forfathers were going against God’s will for I don’t know but I won’t be so bold to say they were doing what God wanted them to either. What I will say is I believe God used these mens decisions good or bad. As men who drank from the same cup as Paul and myself in the body of Christ I will only say “my God is Good!”

    I say all of this with the knowledge though that if we do not repent soon as a nation and turn from our wicked ways we could be healed per God’s word but I think to many have turned from God in our country and my only hope is where it should be.. in the mercy of God.

  15. creationwitness says:

    Hi Kay,

    I meant to write more yesterday, but got sidetracked. Your letter now reminded me that I wanted to tell you how much I enjoy reading what you write. It is clearly of God’s Spirit.

    I hope you did not take what I said in the wrong way. I believe the founding father’s had nothing but good intent in what they accomplished. It is just that there was some fundamental error and that error may have been the rejection of the king or it may have been that they thought they could create a Satan proof country. Regardless, I must believe their intention was sincere. They also would not have been able to write the words they wrote without the same Spirit. I think that much is evident.

    That leaves us where we are at today and I think you have said it best about where our hope should be!

    God bless. God’s will be done. Keep heart in Jesus Christ.

  16. astudent says:


    We have more in common than our desire of understanding.

    I want everything to be “exactly” right and I am sure that it drives others crazy.

    To illustrate this madding trait of mine, you said, “Then Jesus said love thy neighbor more than thyself”, But he really said “Love thy neighbor as thyself”, not more than thyself. Trying to love another more than yourself will create problems that will not be created by loving them as you love yourself. Believe me, I have been there and done that.

    Having said that, I do believe that we should strive to love God more than we love ourselves. That certainly would not create any problems. If it seemed too, I believe He would explain it to us and we would know that it did not: that it really solved more problems than it seemed to create.

    I had not considered that we should love God more than we love ourselves until I read your comment. I learned a bit more because you commented. That is really why I write posts and answer comments. It causes me to think about God and His Word from a different point of view and He guides my thoughts into more understanding.

    You mentioned the Law and to your credit, you know that we should strive to obey the Law. Jesus died so that we do not have to serve the penalty for breaking the law, but the Law is good and perfect and should be obeyed. If everyone obeyed the two royal commands there would be no sin on this earth and some day, in the near future, Jesus will come back and God will remake everything. After that those who are left will obey the Law.

    I only said that for the benefit of others as some will be quick to say that we are no longer under the law and imply that we should not worry about obeying it. But I ask myself ‘Which of the two laws do I not want to obey’ and my answer is neither.

    Perhaps this reaction of mine was a result of my conversations that I used to have with a friend of mine. If I said anything about the law, he went off on a tangent about how we were no longer under the law and I should not say, or even imply, that we are still under it. But he missed the point that we should try to obey it, even though we are not under the penalty for breaking it, because it is good and perfect.

    I also do not possess the ability to memorize Scripture. I see it as a blessing as I cannot depend on myself to be correct when I cite Scripture. Because I know that I do not always remember, word for word, I must look the verses up. With computers it is easy to do, if I can remember a key word, and some times I find Scripture to be slightly different than how I was viewing it and I learn; because I had to look it up.

    We differ just a bit about others. In the example that you gave, in your previous comment, it is said that God sent the three to save the man, but I do not trust men. If someone said to me “God sent me to save you” I would be very doubtful. I would be more convinced that God sent aid if a log came floating by within easy reach. I see Satan masquerading as someone sent to help and it is very difficult to tell the difference between someone sent from God and someone sent by Satan.

    I see that you look to others for understanding, but iron cannot sharpen iron. Look to others for questions and to the Word of God for answers. After all He has given us the Holy Spirit to teach us all things (John 14:26): all we need are the questions. (Yes, I had to look it up) You do right to compare what others say with what God says.

    I do not assume that the Founding Fathers were going against the will of God. I am certain of it, because Romans 13:1&2 clearly states that they were and did.

    If I were pointing out this sin against God committed by a different people there would be no doubt in my brothers and sisters minds. As it is, my brothers and sisters have been told, from childhood that God formed this Nation and they believe it and are proud of it.

    I think that I can illustrate this with Israel. God did form Israel and He was their King until they rebelled against Him and demanded a man to be their king. It is clear that they rebelled against God and if we apply Romans 13:1&2 to the situation it is also clear that the verses fit. They rebelled against the authority that God established (Himself) and they suffered the consequences of that rebellion. Who would refute that?

    However, when I apply Romans 13:1&2 to this country my brothers and sister try to find some reason the verses do not apply.

    They do apply. God established the King of England as the authority over the Colonies and they (the Founding Fathers and the people) rebelled against him.

    There used to be a series of small figures that set on my parent’s mantle, over the fire place. It was three monkeys. One had its hands over its eyes, one had its hands over its ears, and one had its hands over its mouth. That is how I see my brothers and sisters when I say Romans 13:1&2 fits the formation of this Nation: I’m not going to see it, hear it, or say it!

    It is not my word that they will not see, hear, or say. I did not write Romans 13:1&2. It is the Word of God that they will not acknowledge.

    Having said that, I agree that God used the sins of the Founding Fathers and their followers to form this Nation. He is going to do to us just what He said He would do in verse 2. He says He establishes the authorities and we say we do (Your vote counts). One of us is wrong and we are reaping the judgment for our rebellion.

    Just one example, we would not pay England a small tax on one, or two luxuries and now we pay more than 50% of everything we buy, make, and keep; even on our necessities! Are we all blind? Well, perhaps we are just holding our hands over our eyes.

    Everyone thinks that we are going to elect a man that will do everything right and save this Nation, but God has already sent us a Savior and He isn’t a president, He is a King and our Father didn’t send Him to save this Nation, but to save the Nation of Zion.

    We are not citizens of this Nation. We were born in Zion (Psa 87:4-6) and are citizens of Zion and we should act like it. We should be acknowledging that God is right and man is not. As it is we are not doing so.

    Anyway, thanks for your input. I am sure you are a genuine Christian and it is a pleasure to trade comments with you: as it is with all my brothers and sisters. I echo creationwitness, “I enjoy what you write”.

    Ha, and I said “your” words were many!

  17. Kay says:

    Creationwitness, I too, enjoy reading your post as well as astudents. I find that not many want to discuss my favorite subject. (GOD) I get so caught up in my studies that when others (church socials) start to talk about who’s shoe there wearing or what sale they found, I lose interest and then I find myself avoiding contacts. Here I feel as though I can have the conversations my soul craves.
    Thank you!

    To astudent,
    I do think you and I have alot in common. I see your views very clearly. I was raised with 6 siblings. I love them all yet they probably don’t believe I do. You see, I get more angry with them because I care more for them because I love them so… so when they are doing something I see as black or white. In thinking they are an extension from or (of) me, I have offended them. I know that homosexuality is wrong. However my sister (who says she is a Christian) believes that they are born homosexual. So there for my anger would be less under control and ‘in the spirit’ with my sister for I was more invested. Then something happen that I thought was my fault, but now see it was God’s plan.
    I was removed from my home state to my husband home state. And the more contact I had with my growing up family the less I grew in my walk with God. (Most of my time was spent trying to explain to my in-laws there antagonistic question because it humored them knowing I would feel so strongly about God) I took a break to just concentrate on my walk with God. WOW! What can I say? God is Good! He knows are hearts. I love my family but they were my old life. I pray for them. They are not my extension. They are loved as much as I am by God but I can’t save them only Christ can. I can let go and not be worried about them for who am I who can’t change tomorrow? So I care but learned to let go. I focus now on my relationship with God first and then I just have Faith. God has truly blessed us and I am thankful.
    We are not rich in worldly standards as some of my family is but we are overwhelmingly in abundance of the true inheritance of Grace, mercy, and Love.
    This is not bragging for I did none of it. God moved and I’m thankful.
    Now why I share that with you is because I sensed from your past post (no haven’t read all, still working on it) that you feel pressure from your siblings. And you feel like you have to defend your choices. I feel your love and although you have made a stand, your wanting them to see what you see. Unfortunately, this will not happen. At least not the way you want. When the spirit moves its amazing if the spirit uses you but its all about the timing of God.
    I had to accept that my usefulness to the spirit with my family had run its course and no matter how much I pushed it made things worse. By stepping back my Savior revealed His purpose that I fought for years to control myself with intention to work for God but it was ‘me’ that was the problem. I didn’t see the Holy Spirit was having a problem shining through because I covered it with my eagerness to show what God revealed to me without letting God reveal himself I was showing me. I don’t know how to explain that any better, so I hope it makes sense. I am not saying you should distance yourself from your family. That was what God wanted for me but for His good, not mine. By obeying that He opened where I was to be.
    As far as the forefathers… by not knowing how or if the Holy Spirit was working in them I can’t say this nation was built on Our heavenly Father but it was a nation that allowed many to pray openly and have free will as God planned for human beings. To either serve Him or themselves which ultimately is as the old dragon did.
    I do know when you look at individuals as a body of Christ I know that Jesus saved George Washington as much as he saved me. When I go 58 mph in a 55 mph zone I know I’m wrong and when the Spirit lets me know I am doing wrong only I can repent and listen. My punishment is in my God’s hands rather by another person (police) or squirrel that will haunt me for running over it.

    Sorry have to go but please know I love you guys!

  18. liferestored says:

    Kay, thank you. You are a sweet spirit. I hear what you are saying and I agree. I appreciate you sharing your personal experience in life. It does indeed mold us. What I have found through many life times of travels is God is king no matter where you are at. Once I questioned myself due to a “move” as – am I in “Gods will” with this move??….What happens if i move and it is not His will/plan? Will there still be blessings and His protection or am I at the mercy of the enemy? I was seriously concerned. I prayed. God answered me. He is everywhere doing work. Move, stay, it does not matter, what ever your decision is, find out what God is doing THERE/HERE and press into it. Be a part of it. Blessings are in that place, not a city, state, or nation.

    Astudent, I did understand you when you say they need Gods forgiveness and not yours…. However, I believe you are being dishonest with your self as your words reveal your heart. You say they are in sin against God. Your argument is they need not repent to you but God yes? 1) What sin do they need forgiveness from which the Father is using your mouth (blog) to bring to light? Are their sins not already forgiven? Finished? (If indeed they are in sin by voting). I am only saying you reveal a plank in your eye by pointing out a suspected sliver in your brothers and sisters in such a fashion.. Your blog is your mouth, and what is in your heart will be revealed by it. I do not mean to “attack” your character. You pride yourself in being blunt and straight. I am doing the same. And I see spiritual (religious) pride in this post. If I am completely off base and this is not you – in your heart – then I ask your forgivness for my misunderstanding and truly am sorry.

    You said you pray for me because I vote. I told you I do not vote. I am at peace with it. However, I do not charge my brothers/sisters with sin for voting or many other things such as this…. It is silly and judgmental. That is all i am saying. Let me speak plainly about this “Great Nation”. There is evil in this world you most likely have not witnessed so I am trying to not blame you for this. The enemy has “thrones” of dominion over these places…as the city of the church of Pergamum. Cities where children are crucified, babies burned in piles in front of parents, women who’s breast will be cut off so they can not feed their infants, homosexuals murdered, however, young boys are expected to be raped; and all in the name of God. There is no comparison to the hold the enemy has on America and the hold he has on these places. This is what Im saying. I cannot help to believe it was our forefathers relationship with God which led them to lay such a fantastic foundation down for such a nation as ours. Furthermore, a nation which has been used to protect Israel. Now let me say it before you do – God does not NEED America to protect Israel. I know. However, I do believed it has been our purpose. And I believe this is probably the one reason I can stand on why we have been a blessed nation. Now big picture – yes, America is lost with the world and all the other nations of this fallen world. No one would argue that.

    You are right when you point out I do not quote scripture. Quoting scripture does not impress me. If some one is impressed and swayed by someone who only uses the “letter” of the Word to sway others, argue, or make their point then that person would/will most likely be following Hitler, all Non-Christian religions, most TV evangelist who ask for $, or almost every cult known to man. I am not saying this is what you do as I believe your heart is true and you love the true God. What I am saying is I am more impressed with the Word in you. The Spirit in you. Not the knowledge of the Word you may have. I have the same Spirit in me as do all true believers. I seek His answers and have heard many awesome things. I know you are a sinner as I am. And we both have been saved from great depths.

    So. In the spirit of reconciliation…:) I will reveal something of myself to you so you understand me a little more. I was seduced by the enemy for most of my youth and was very very lost. I took the big step toward Him and He saved me. Completely and in whole..Healed. Veil lifted. Changed my life forever. When God saved me, he brought me to an extremely legalistic church. A “holiness” church if you will. Im sure you know the type; Women are subservient, cannot cut their hair and only wear long dresses, all must never listen to any music other than gospel, no tv, no facial hair; and EVERY ONE else was not up to Gods standard and most likely was not saved (according to them). Now don’t get me wrong…I thank God for this church. He knew what He was doing and what I needed… You see, I was in church Sunday (all morning) and dinner at the pastors house Sunday night was not optional. Monday night was “soul winning” night and we witnessed to others in the city. Tuesday night was prayer meeting. Wednesday night was bible study. Thursday and Friday were off days, however, the brethren usually were inviting you to do something together with them. Saturday, we were expected to work at the church. So when I say I thank God it is because God knew I NEEDED this spiritual boot camp. Now after a little more than a year, God showed me it was time to leave. He gave me the wisdom and strength to leave. It was not easy as this church believed i had lost my salvation and they truly morned me as if i died. I loved them. Even though they judged me and “disavowed” me. God revealed to me spiritual pride, judgment, and lack of grace hinders true spiritual growth. For good or bad, I see all things through these glasses now. I am now very sensitive to it. Maybe to sensitive. I do not mean to insult you.

    Take care and I have enjoyed another great conversation. Kay, a true pleasure.

    liferestored (Mike)

  19. astudent says:


    I have spent a lot of time considering your last comment and I am grateful that you did comment.

    I believe I understand our disagreement about me. I am not being dishonest with myself, but my words do reveal my heart. I exult my Father and His Son only: not myself or anyone else.

    You say, “Quoting scripture does not impress me”, but it certainly should. I quote Scripture because it is the very Word of God. When I do so the God of the universe is my witness that what I am saying is true.

    You do not really understand me at all. Really I am witnessing for God. I am declaring that what He said is true. In this case, He said that He chooses the authorities and the people of this Country are saying ‘We choose the authorities’. Either God is wrong and the people are right, or God is right and the people are wrong. Who do you think is right?

    When the people say that they chose the authorities they automatically declare God wrong and they are guilty of unbelief. That is to answer your question, “What sin do they need forgiveness from which the Father is using your mouth (blog) to bring to light?”

    (Deu 19:15 NIV) One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. There are three witnesses here. God, because He said He chooses the authorities, the Holy Spirit, because He always agrees with the Father, and lastly me.

    When anyone votes they are choosing a man to be their authority. God said that He chooses all authorities. Men do not know who God will choose. Man will always choose the person that they believe will lead them in the direction that they want to go and to go out before them and fight their battles, just like the Israelites (1 Sam 8:20).

    God chooses the lowliest of men as earthly authorities (Dan 4:17). That is perfectly logical, because if God choose good men and they did right, then we would exult the man instead of God. I also might add that the government is and should be only an agent of wrath. The people are not trying to choose an agent of wrath, but an agent of good and by doing so are standing in the way of God: not helping at all.

    I strive to believe God, not man. God says that He chooses the authorities and I believe Him. The man that says ‘My vote counts’ does not yet believe God. All sin is unbelief

    I am not saying that anyone’s sin is forgiven or not forgiven. That is God’s position to say. To say that all sins are forgiven and imply that therefore sins no longer matter is not right. To me that seems a selfish and self centered way of viewing one’s own salvation.

    The truth, as I see it, is after salvation we should turn wholeheartedly to God. Thanking, praising, believing, and understanding everything He says. That is my goal.

    I quote the Bible, because it is the Word of God. In other words, I quote the Bible to confirm what I say and believe. I do not quote Scripture to impress anyone, but I quote it to prove what I say and I believe what I am saying comes from the Spirit that lives within me; and also within you. If what I say is untrue I could not back it up with Scripture: I would have no witness.

    (Rom 10:17 NIV) “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” When one goes into a private place and reads Scripture they are hearing the very Words of God. Words not twisted by man in any way.

    We should derive all of our understanding from Scripture, because it is the very Words of God. (Prov 4:7 NIV) “Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.”

    I have determined that, saved or unsaved, we should all try to obey the two Royal Laws. That is to love our Father with all of our heart, mind, and strength; and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Being saved does not release us from those two Laws. Being saved only releases us from the penalty of disobeying the Law. I believe God wants us to obey the Law as best that we can.

    Now, if I see my brothers sinning and I know that they do not even realize that they are, would I be obeying the second greatest command if I said nothing? I am not judging (condemning) them. I am only pointing out that they are sinning against God and do not even realize it.

    I do not vote, not because I fear condemnation from our Father for not doing so. I love my Father and I do not wish to hurt Him in any way. My Father created a universe, for me, and everything that was created was created for me (and you). Then He created me and sent His only Son that He might be separated from Him in my place. After all that He has done for me could I say that He is “wrong” when He said that He chooses the authorities?

    When God creates His Nation it will not be through the sins of man. God would never lead anyone to rebel against Him. God has created a Nation on this earth that was supposed to be His, but they rebelled against Him, because of unfaith. He said that He would send hornets to drive out the people that lived in the land and the Jews could just walk in, sit down, and eat the meal that was on the table, but the Jews did not believe Him. No one had to go to war and no one had to die, but the people, because of their unbelief, changed all of that.

    God certainly has blessed this Nation. However, He did so because this Nation recognized Him as the God of the universe. We used to pray and ask His assistance when things did not go as we would like, but we no longer do and so He has removed His blessings from us. It was not the Nation that was good; it was the God of the Nation that was good. Do not call this Nation good.

    (1 Cor 3:1&2 NIV) “Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly–mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.”

    You still have your mind on this world and not on heavenly things. (Heb 11:13-16 NIV) “All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country–a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” You, like many, are still thinking about the country that you left when you were born again.

    This nation is not a great nation. It is less than nothing (Isa 40:17 NIV) “Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing.”
    If you do not agree with me, then agree with God. “O”, but if you agree with God, then you do agree with me!

    (1 Cor 4:1-4 NIV) “So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.”

    “O”, I almost forgot, please forgive me for saying that I pray for you because you vote. You defend this Nation and it is only logical, to me, that if one believes in this government one would vote and that logic caused me to forget that you said that you do not vote.

    I will find something else to pray about for you.

  20. Kay says:

    Liferestored, I love your name….;-) I read your testimony and I love to tease about how I was one of those people who couldn’t share a huge change from old me (before) salvation and new me (after) salvation. I was called goodytwoshoes. (Never did hear nor was interested how that name came about) when I hear a testimony like yours, I want scream PRAISE JESUS! My soul leaps. I know the change (changes for God is not done) but my siblings just thought I was a ‘know it all type’ they didn’t know I was watching them and discerning right and wrongs (by the spirit within) as to prevent those mistakes in my own life. But when you do that, your own decisions become judgemental to them. I learned to late that I needed to love them ‘more than myself’ for no greater love is one who gives his life for his friend. (John 15:13) ‘myself’ wanted to hold on to them. When you have a relationship with God, you don’t see as clearly as He does and we have a tendency to follow whomever we see as the best example or witness to God and this can lead to destruction. Not loss of salvation but to the loss of rewards to be won for our Jesus Christ. I love to read from many men that confess, Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This doesn’t mean I follow these men (Tim Lahey, Billy Graham, Ron Rhodes, etc…) I research there lessons and only with the Holy Spirit do I read if there way of seeing scripture (through their studies or education) coincides with scripture. I do not know if Lahey is correct in his belief of order in the wrath of God. But I know he has studied it and put it to scripture but by my understanding I will fail so I must ask God to give me His understanding and sometimes this means He will send a ‘Isaiah’ (if you will) I believe humans will fail always but there is a knowledge, understanding, wisdom, fear of The Lord, strength, council, and power. (ISAIAH 11:2) from God which many scholars say are the spirits of God mentioned in revelation at the throne and the 7 eyes of the Lamb. We know if we ask God for His wisdom it is his will to give however to have the Holy Spirit in completeness of the 7 spirits is as Jesus Christ which all men are found to fall short and as dirty rags. But if God has seen fit to have given you understanding of Daniel’s encounters with visions and dreams and then if God has given astudent the wisdom of proverbs it is possible that one would hear the law of proverbs through the Wisdom of God but by not asking for understanding of Daniel would have the Wisdom but not understanding of how to discern God’s ultimate plan. I think both you and astudent have qualities given to both of you. However I know I am to walk the narrow path in this world I still am not of this world. Tim Lahey, billy Graham, nor any other can save me but can anyone say that Tim Lahey wasn’t welcomed with a ‘well done my child’ from Jesus Christ? I don’t think the left behind series was a fluke. I believe yes financially tim Lahey profited from it (in old age) but I believe as bad as I wish tv’s and Hollywood would just disappear 😉 that this technology age today, God allowed many to open there Bible’s again as well brought many to find salvation. I do read the books Tim Lahey has written however my faith is not in him. My faith is in Jesus Christ. So I understand what you said about God putting you in the church you needed… I have always believed that since I don’t put any credit in what someone thinks about my haircolor that Jesus Christ didn’t really care if naturally bleached by sun or chemical matters much to Jesus Christ. What would matter is if the person with said hair put there hair color more important than their devotion to God. By offending one (for what ever reason) that is not saved with hair color change does matter to Jesus. Is said hair dyer willing to give up hair color change for there testimony to the lost one? Its a fine line…. In scripture the disciples showed where they were concerned of circumcision. But interestingly enough the discussion was more about should they teach the gospel to just the jewish community. Notice that some were called to teach to the jewish community then by vision another was to be called for all lost sheep. Surely Jesus Christ came for God’s people, but since He died for all there are those we have to love and listen to because the Holy Spirit is working in them differently than in ourselves because of our limitations not God’s. So thank you my friend for sharing your testimony here. And as always a pleasure too…..

  21. Kay says:

    I see you as a ‘by the law’ type of person. I see that you believe as I do that God’s law is ultimate. This is not a bad thing unless you begin to judge others by those laws. Yes, I know we are to be watchman. However do you see anyone turning from there wicked ways in our nation? Can you honestly say that the word “Christian” means ‘following Jesus Christ’ today? The knowledge that ‘the Christians’ was a derogatory name by the Roman soldiers to the disciples tells you what a Christian is suppose to be. In the past we can see Christians labeled Catholic, protestants, Jahovah witness, even Mormon. None of these denominations actually mean anything Because Jesus Christ searches the heart of all men. If the Pope (which he has) declares that they are to be accepting of the Islam faith then are all Catholic people not christian? I do believe the pope will answer for his transgressions, however it won’t be I that will make that judgement. Am I to write the pope and declare him false prophet? I could but don’t feel like God is calling me to do so.
    Jonah was called to go to a town that turned from God. There must have been enough prayers for this town and God sent a messenger. When Jonah disobeyed God, God intervened in a way that grabs anybody’s attention. In the same way their must have been some in that town that God could have used besides Jonah. The difference is that by God’s spirit one is called to do God’s work. Pharaohs heart was hardened to Moses and God. Why? It was not going to turn to God for God to worship God. Pharoh might have weaken for the sake of appearing good to his followers but his heart was not for God it was for himself as Egypt’s god. So in the same way Daniel faces certain death by Nebuchadnezzar and what does Daniel do? Prays for understandings, knowledge, wisdom from God. Daniel was beloved! However we know Daniel’s fate; lets talk about Nebuchadnezzar. His heart must not have been completely hardened to God because although used to destroy Jerusalem was worthy enough to have God intervene by taking his ability to think as a man but a animal. Only when Nebuchadnezzar, declared God as the God Almighty above all did Nebuchadnezzar serve God willingly.
    You say, that anyone who votes sins against God. Or who believes in this nation being great. I think you forget that for most in a certain era of this nation believed that the nation was great because of God. Jerusalem was great because of God. Yet Jerusalem has been in so many hands that have had no understanding of Jesus Christ, God’s son. I would not say to the jewish community ‘do not vote! God chooses. We both know what the Bible says about God in ultimate control but I think you forget that where God leads one He does not lead another.
    I understand disappointment in America. I think God is disappointed in America. If God told me to stand in front of white house and tell the president to turn from his wicked ways and God will heal this land; then I would do so. If you were watching on tv and thought silly woman doesn’t she know God chooses the kings of this world; without asking God you may perceive I am not working for God. Thank goodness that the town of Nineveh listened because they feared the Lord. The problem we have today in America is not about voting. If you notice the dates on when actions were taken to take God out of our gov’t was the same era as when israel became a nation and then increased land because of the attack by Arabian countries. This rising of nation (look at pictures in old bible’s or timeline watch the amazing growth) the USA although a super power in economics going up and down through those years went from a severe cultural change. This when viewed with scriptures of end time events is the most amazing occurrence. We are watching prophesy before our eyes. Yet this nation of USA; who should have been the most educated in Our Heavenly Father’s plan seem to be the heart of pharaohs. This is what is killing the nation. Hatred, self interest,covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. I am glad that the Bible says this…. for the pope surly has the Holy Bible and not the Qur’an which goes against the word of Jesus Christ. Because they say Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh as God’s son and messiah. I would not even touch a qur’an knowing that it teaches Jesus only as a prophet or good man. For Jesus Christ wasn’t ‘only’ He was ‘All’ a ‘true christian’ needs to receive a white robe without any dirt. So what I’m trying to say is you have a tendency to hate ‘man’ or the sins of man. That is good to hate sin for it will separate you from The Holy Spirit. And this means no more of God’s wisdom through scripture. You see the Holy Bible is the most important book I know; (yes a however) without the Holy Spirit you can not have those 7 attributes of God’s spirit. When we hold sin we still are saved (praise Jesus Christ always) however our purpose is to walk in Jesus Christ narrow path after we are saved. We can’t walk that path without The One sent to guide us. And never think that The One sent to us to live and be seen through us, is not as Holy as His name implies. So that Holiness can only work through a clean slate. Why we must always repent to clean out the nasty thoughts of self and pride and prejudice thoughts. When we have done so we then can open that Great Book and we ask for understanding. Sometimes we don’t meditate and listen. We want the answer now! So we claim this sounds good and because we like black/white clear cut answers we fight for what we understood but don’t see God’s ultimate understanding that goes so much further through another place in the book. We don’t see people as God does. I see king David and first thoughts: goliath next thought chosen to lead and was great king third thought. He sent one of his soldier’s to be killed in battle because king david wanted his wife (whom he already took) now this third thought causes you to go hmmmm… then you read psalms. And not a poetry fan I can tell you the heart of David was for God and God knew. So king david was punished by God through others he loved and then my last thought and my God’s nature. Loved by God was davids heart towards God. What this means? When doing God’s will He uses you when sin steps in you feel the absence of the Holy Spirit.
    Voting for presidents may not matter unless one feels God is leading them to do so. If you tell them its not God’s will to vote based on God chooses the kings of the world then you run the risk of hindering the Holy Spirit. If voting was sinful then each individual true Christian will feel a separation that through prayer will be forgiven. As david asked for forgiveness on the mount. I personally try to obey all the laws in gov’t but ultimately God’s law out weighs all. The day they tell you (which they have in certain States) you can’t pray in a public place before eating your meal. Or before a gov’t decision. Is the day you should not obey the law of the land. Why? I know God hears my every thought and it is a testimony to God and shines a light on who you are as a Christian to pray in thanks for a meal or to pray in God’s help of a decision for any govt decision. The verse of praying like the Pharisees is not the same as prayer among Christians where more than one gather. Paul who preached the gospel was more protected than the other disciples yet he was imprisoned for telling the gospel. Where do you draw the line in law of land and law of God. Through the Holy Spirit. John was on patmos until a new ceasor took over. Were they suppose to follow the law of land? The were told no public speaking or teaching of the gospel. Yet they never stopped. If there was a christian candidate that proclaimed to do God’s will through scripture and the Holy Spirit and I prayed and hear God leading me this man is who God wants in power then I would vote. However, this (described) candidate may turn to wicked ways or might even be the anti-christ not yet revealed. My faith is not in him nor my trust. I don’t judge him but by his fruit as one to recognize the Holy Spirit working in him. So my faith and trust is in Jesus Christ. So by voting or not voting either way is not going against God’s law for if God doesn’t want him there he won’t be but I think personally that your choice to trust God alone is commendable but your ‘choice’ to say God doesn’t want you to because of scripture that did not pertain to casting a vote can lead you into a very sticky area. You see it this way because you see black/white but by your own admission if one votes it will not matter because God chooses the authority’s. That’s final! If I am to choose to go by train or by bus if God chose for my life to end at one particular time then by bus or train will not matter. So will it be a sin if I choose the bus over the train? Only if God told me to take the train.
    You don’t see why one would vote because a nation was formed by disobedience to another king?
    That disobedience as you say makes the forefathers sinners. (Just as we all are) yet even though George Washington was in the revolution war and became first president of this nation (which was not 50 states) he proclaimed his salvation through Jesus, which then makes him our brother in christ. And since he would be adopted into the Family of God how do you think Our Heavenly Father will fill about addressing the spirit of accusations (as the devil does day and night accusing the saints) I have no doubt as to why this nation was formed. It was formed because God chooses our authorities for His ultimate plan and that is that all may be given a chance to serve Him. His purpose was set there is only that. I don’t look at the past sins of many a good man that in my opinion was wrong without hearing The Holy Spirit say “eye”
    It may not work once or twice but sooner or later I have to pray and I don’t care where I am I will pray right then and there. (Law or not)
    Am I wrong.??
    He will let me know =-O
    Basically you seem to forget that king of england was after Roman rule and then there were many different opinions on who had right to be king. Who chose them? You said God. Ok but would that mean England, Europe and every nation built was on the commandments given by God? At one point the king of england claimed he was over the church. I don’t have any pride in our nation today. I weep as king david would weep over what sin has done to destroy something that was meant to be devoted to God. I would tear my close when I saw the white house in rainbow color. I am angered as I know that they chose the rainbow color because its God’s promise to not destroy the earth with flood, however if given a vote in this country to allow gay marriage or to make the law stand between one man and one woman, I would vote.
    My vote though doesn’t matter and law went in anyway no matter that this goes against God’s law. In England this was a non-issue. Don’t you see why some would want to vote to get the nation back to God.
    I have nothing but love for then because at least they are seeing a path to destruction that in these days must happen.
    I just never thought as the nation I believed was not all Christian but majority Christian would turn from God. Until I learned the difference in statistics. In my mind all Christians trusted in Jesus Christ and followed His path , knowing the only way to salvation was through knowing Him. I was shocked and suddenly awaken to a country that only 20 percent believe Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. I then read that 50 percent of ‘Christian preachers’ believe in a ‘catching away’ (rapture) I don’t care in argument of when this event takes place but how can a Christian who teaches others not believe in the word of God?
    Well at least 70 percent of these preachers believe Jesus Christ is the only way. WHAT! 30 percent of those teaching in churches today believe you can be in God’s presence with dirty rags?
    These are things that make you hate man until you realise that its not man its their pride that I have to ask for forgiveness for everyday.
    This nation has failed! I just want to encourage its turning from its failure. And if they would I would sing like David did as God healed us. (I have a horrible voice and don’t sing) as it is I can’t say its wrong to vote I can only say that it would be wrong if God told someone not to.
    So if The Holy Spirit is leading you to not vote please don’t but as it does not effect someones relationship with God nor effect someones testimony to God,
    I think the legalistic Pharisees really saw the law as black/white but could not see the Son of God before there very eyes speaking with Authority! The law of moses is important especially for there health but the Lord was before them and the most knowledgeable in the Torah could not see. A tax collector did though. A couple of fishermen did. A harlot did. Their was one among the Jewish temple at least that saw the saving grace and it was foretold but to this day you can go on jewish sites and they will give you biography of Jesus and what some believed and then dispute He was Christ. With the prophesy of revelation from one of there own they still wait for the messiah. They are still blessed because they were chosen. 144,000 of jewish descendants will be sealed by God to not be destroyed and to be a witness during God’s wrath. Such as it will be I am keeping my eyes open to see Jesus Christ in all His Glory

  22. Kay says:

    I was re-reading what I wrote on this page and saw this discrepancy:
    as it is I can’t say its wrong to vote I can only say that it would be wrong if God told someone not to.

    I did not use correct punctuation.
    It should read:
    as it is I can’t say its wrong to vote. I can only say that it would be wrong if God told someone not to vote and they voted anyway.

  23. astudent says:


    Too many words.

    I like everything to be absolutely correct and that is what I try to convey. That is not to say that I know everything. God does know everything, so I try to convey to others what He has shown me.

    First, to be as correct as I can, I am not your friend! I am your brother and a lot closer than just a friend. I love you and so I want you to understand as I do. No, even better than I do!

    God said that He chooses the authorities and man says that we choose the authorities. One of them is wrong! Either God chooses, or man does. Which of the two do you think is right?

    Personally I believe God is right.

    Since man attempts to chose by voting, I believe to vote is to sin. A man says in his heart ‘This is the man that I want to be over me and I will vote him into that position of authority and others should follow my lead and also vote for this man (or woman)’.

    The one who claims God is in charge and should be, then votes, is double minded.

    Satan has deceived us into believing that a government is supposed to do us good, but God plainly says that a government is an agent of wrath. (Rom 13:4)

    I want God to be my authority: not any man. So I no longer vote. I do not know who God will place in office, but I am quite sure that He does not need any help from me to do so.

    Voting “is” exalting. It attempts to exalt ones own ability to choose authorities when God said He does. It exalts man above God. “I know who should rule, so I will choose!” and the fact that God said that He will choose is ignored.

    If one starts with a wrong premise all the words in the world will not make it a correct premise. God’s Word says, “There is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” Start with that premise and you will understand just as I do. Start with “Voting is not exalting” and you will not understand.

    There is way too much worry about offending others in this world. If one is offended by the possibility of being wrong then they have way to much pride in themselves.

    God told Ezekiel that he was to be a watchman for the house of Israel and He would hold Ezekiel responsible if he did not warn them. If it offends someone to warn them that they are sinning then that is just too bad. I must please my Father, not my brother (or sister).

    My Father is right, He chooses the authorities. We do not and it is wrong (a sin) to attempt to change that fact. We attempt to change it by voting and that makes voting a sin.

    (Psa 32:1&2 NIV) Of David. A maskil. Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.

    Though my Father does not hold my sins against me, I do not want to add to the list, so I do not vote and I warn others, so that the sins of a silent watchman are not on my list.

    History repeats it’s self. Every thing that was written, was written that we might learn from it (Rom 15:4). God’s children (Israelites) turned from Him, because they did not believe Him. Their zeal for God was not based on knowledge. They thought the same thing as my brothers and sisters. That is ‘It doesn’t matter, because we are God’s chosen people’. Well, it did matter and it does matter.

    You defend yourself against me as if I wrote Romans 13:1&2 or Daniel 4:17. You are telling the wrong person that they are wrong. Don’t tell me; tell our Father that He really doesn’t choose and that it is no big deal if we decide to choose.

    Just as the Israelites surrounded themselves with prophets that said what they wanted to hear, today God’s children “will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear (2 Tim 4:3). No one better come along and hurt their feelings by saying that they are sinning!

    You see, a watchman seldom shouts out good news. It is not good news that the Deceiver has deceived, but he has. This Country is an offence to God, not a blessing from Him. Base you zeal on knowledge not on your feelings.

  24. Kay says:

    I really am trying to hold back. But my feelings? Mmmm
    SELF-CONTROL (biggest struggle)
    I really dislike the ‘feelings’ defence.
    I love because I’m loved by the One who loved first. I feel that. I read that. And I can discern only by prayer and when He speaks I can only describe the feeling my spirit gets or my physical body may feel but the spiritual is not helpful to anyone unless they have ever felt it.
    I think this goes beyond voting. Because I believe God’s word I trust that God is always in control and watched over His sheep. I do not concern myself with things God has already said he is in control of. Why? Because of this feeling…… Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?
    If I should not worry on these things for God will supply what I need, I fall beefier Jesus with there wrong feelings (anxiety, doubt etc..) I praise Jesus and move on to feel comfort from my savior.
    I think I will. Stick to feeling that voting is not worth my time to do nor to weigh in with others that the Holy Spirit is not leading me to do. Yet if He is leading you I will pray for you. I know in my studies today a wonderful thought was given to me about revelation that gave me peace…. love that fealing.. hope the horseman to take peace doesn’t know I found some in the word. I would hate to loose my Word!

  25. David says:

    This passage comes from a book called “the higher liberty”:

    “Our modern misunderstanding of Romans 13 seems to hinge on
    one word of the text, powers. Dunamis, dunamai, didomi, arche, ischus,
    ischuros, kratos and energes are all translated in the New Testament as
    ‘power’, but have decidedly different meanings than the word that
    appears in Romans 13.
    The original Greek word is exousia. It is from two Greek words.
    Ex meaning ‘of’ or ‘from’, while ousia means ‘what one has, i.e.
    property, possessions, estate’. Exousia is defined: “power of choice,
    liberty of doing as one pleases.”7
    Is Paul telling us to go under
    government authority or to remain at liberty?
    What would happen if we translated exousia in Romans 13 into the
    English word “liberty” as we see in Corinthians 8:9?
    “Let every soul be subject unto the higher liberty. For there is no
    liberty but of God: the liberties that be are ordained of God.
    Whosoever therefore resisteth (opposes) the liberty, resisteth
    (opposes) the ordinance of God: and they that resist (sets one’s self
    against) shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a
    terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of
    the liberty? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the
    same.” Romans 13:1-3
    Can this be true? Could so many people have been a part of such
    a bold deception? The word exousia is translated “right” in Hebrews
    13:10 and Revelation 22:14, and it is translated as “liberty” in 1
    Corinthians 8:9.8”

    I’m not sure about the translation but it seems to make more sense for me that when Romans 13 speaks of authority or power it speaks of higher liberty, or using our will in respect of God’s. Doing otherwise is our when we use our will in rebellion. Otherwise for me, it looks confusing – if God gives all His children free will with no shadow of partiality, why would He then later change His mind and ask most of His children to submit to the will of the few (so-called authorities)?

  26. creationwitness says:

    Hi All,

    Here is a something that fits in with this topic:

    2Jn 1:9-11 KJV
    (9)  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    (10)  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    (11)  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    If one is to vote for another person that does not bring this doctrine, isn’t that considered bidding them God speed? I don’t hear them talking much about God.


    The fear of losing the Word is the fear of God and your fear is worthy:

    Joh 17:12 KJV
    (12)  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Pray all well.

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