THE SEVEN SEALS

Kay has reminded me of the seven seals in Revelation five and six.

I have not thought of them for some time and her reminder is appreciated.

I view the seven seals as an outline of God’s basic plan for everything. The steps are said as seals, because it is God’s plan, sealed and therefore cannot be changed. Also sealed, that we could not understand it: until now.

(Rev 6:2 NIV) I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Starting with the first seal, I believe that the white horse represents governments. They have armies (bows) and they are lead by men that God gave power to. That is why the horse is white; because the gift of authority is straight from God (he was given a crown). The problem is that it is man that receives the gift and once they have the authority, they ride out as a conqueror bent on conquest. It seems right to me that this step or horse comes first, because all of the other steps (seals) are a result of the first seal.

(Rev 6:4 NIV) Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

This is the second horse and it symbolizes war. The horse is red, the color of blood, and it takes peace from the earth. The large sword represents weapons of the armies that wage war. It is the second horse, because armies are a result of authorities that are “bent on conquest”. Those who want to rule must have a tool that makes those, who do not want to be ruled, submit to them.

(Rev 6:5&6 NIV) When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

This horse represents the law. The law condemns man. It is unbending rules of condemnation. Make one mistake and the rider of the white horse will make you pay for it.

As I study the seven seals I see a thread weaving through all of the seals and that is it is God that should rule and He has given us the seven seals so that we might know, by actual experience, not just from words, that He should be the ruler of men.

(Rev 6:8 NIV) I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

The pale horse is man’s transportation to Hell. Satan leads the horse, but he does not ride the horse; it is for man to ride. Those that ride are given power to kill. Kill by the sword (armies). Famine, when the rider of the first horse takes everything from his subjects until they do not have enough left to sustain themselves. Plague is the same result of taking everything from them; the poor must live in squalor, where everything is tainted with germs. Wild beasts of the earth are men that act as animals. Animals only think of themselves and when individuals only think of themselves they are wild beasts of the earth. Many are killed because beasts want what God has given His children.

It can be seen that there are many riders of the white horse and all of the horses, because the other three horses support the riders of the first horse.

The fifth seal shows the result of living as our Father would have us live.
(Rev 6:9 NIV) When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
(Rev 6:11 NIV) Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

The sixth seal explains the power of God and what happens to those who ride the white horse and then to those who choose not to ride.

The power of God is in 12 to 14.
(Rev 6:12-14 NIV) I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
What happens to those who ride the white horse is in 15-17.

(Rev 7:1 NIV) After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
I think the four winds are also the four horses: symbols of symbols! The four angels hold back, or stop the horses from going forth.

Those from the tribes of Israel, in verses four through eight, are identified from Israel, because they were under the Law of Moses. They were servants of God. Those who are identified in verse nine are those who are saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus. They are the children of God.

This is made clear in verse fourteen.
(Rev 7:14 NIV) I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You see, we are living in the great tribulation right now!

(Rev 7:16 NIV) Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.
We do not hunger or thirst for the Word of God. We have it now and can eat and drink from it, if we want to. That is, want too enough to do it. I see my brothers and sisters look to others as they explain how good the Word of God is, but they do not eat of the Scroll themselves! One can starve watching, while others eat.

(Rev 7:17 NIV) For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

We do not have to wait for Him to pass by and begin to lead. He is already ahead, make an effort to follow now. Jesus is here and rules today, if you let Him.

The seventh seal speaks about Judgment. It seems to change, because it uses trumpets as symbols. It uses the same number seven, because seven is the number of completion.

(Rev 10:7 NIV) But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

If I understand, the mystery of God is that we are being tested to see what is in our hearts. Though God can know everything, I believe He chooses not to know what is in our hearts and He must test us to see if we will turn to Him and believe Him. Most will believe in themselves and other men, but I believe in God, our Father. Who do you believe in?

9 Responses to THE SEVEN SEALS

  1. astudent says:

    Kay,

    Please forgive my late response.

    I think that it is great that you have set out to explain the Word of God as you see it.

    I do not believe that we must agree on our understanding. Sometimes one is looking at the front of the sign while others are looking at the back and though both look at the same sign they see different views. Both can be right about what they say when they attempt to explain what they see and yet they may seem to differ!

    I believe (1 Cor 14:26 NIV) What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

    Now, I would even argue with the apostle Paul. The Law of Moses might say women must be in submission, though I have not found such a statement, but the Law of God is based on the two Royal Commands.
    (Mat 22:37-40 NIV) Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
    I see no way to justify commanding anyone to be in submission to any man. I could not obey the second command and then tell anyone, man or woman, to be quite.

    (1 Cor 14:37&38 NIV) If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

    I believe that is Paul’s command, not our Father’s, so if anyone, other than God chooses to ignore me, I can live with that. Actually it might be a great blessing!

    Kay, keep on listening to our Father’s Word and keep on speaking about it. I think it is wonderful, but then I am probably being ignored. Isn’t life as a Christian great!

  2. 1)you said: Starting with the first seal, I believe that the white horse represents governments. They have armies (bows) and they are lead by men that God gave power to.

    I disagree not only because I’m starting to think the rider is the Holy Spirit sent out in 30+ A.D. when I think the First seal is opened but I also disagree because gov’t was before Jesus Christ. There was Jewish gov’t, roman gov’t, greek, (which I think is to similar to time and greek morphed to roman) there was even a Egyptian gov’t all the way back in exodus. England didn’t start its gov’t until 300 to 500 A.D. so if you mean England’s gov’t it was corrupted by the Catholic (gov’t) church but no where near the gov’t Babylon during Daniels stay (capture)
    The book of seals specifically say can not be opened because no one was found worthy. This particular book taken from the right hand of God (obviously created by God only to be opened once sin is defeated) only by the lamb of God. 1 st seal although interesting can’t possibly be gov’t released to man for remember God controls who rules all gov’t s. And as well Since the One who sits on the thrown did not open the book as God the Father but the lamb of God who was slain shows that this seal could not be opened until Jesus Christ who defeated sin in 30+ A.D. went to heaven to be at the right hand of God.

    2) you say: we are living in the great tribulations.

    I dont know about that… I see the great tribulations starting when God’s wrath begins. In seal 6 we find many things happen at once. I am beginning to believe the 6 th seal is not opened yet and when it is this is when we are caught up with those under the thrown waiting in the 5 th seal. Those under the thrown are not like John… there like Steven. He was martyred John who wrote Revelation was not martyred he was tortured but did not die a martyred death. Incidentally the only disciple who died of old age. That is important because He would have seen himself under the thrown of when the seal is opened. As well as God has another for John he eats a book like another prophet in the old testament and although I see a significance in this because old testament new testament testimony but possible reference or clue of who the two witnesses will be. Especially when the Angel with likeness to how Jesus is described in beginning of Revelation tell John he will prophesy again but if we are going in order of how the book is written by John then when he wrote Revelation would not be in order of what he saw so there for he could be one of the two witnesses in the judgement time. So much more to say but battery about to die lol so interesting as always.

  3. astudent says:

    Kay,

    Wellllll, I am going to disagree with your disagree. Ha, but then you knew I would.

    You say “I’m starting to think the rider is the Holy Spirit sent out in 30+ A.D. when I think the First seal is opened”. Well maybe that was when the first seal was opened, but what was written in the seal, was written before it was opened. The chief point is what is written, not when it was revealed. Although I do agree that the scroll could not have been opened before Jesus had been proved worthy.

    As I understand there is the past, the present, and the future all included in the message.

    Just as an example look at the fifth seal, the past is in those who had already been slain for their faith, the present, at that time was revealed in their question, and the future was the answer that was given them.

    If the white horse represents governments it is clear that there were governments, there are governments, and there will be one government when Jesus returns. Looking at the verses that way, the past had governments, the present has governments, and the future will have one government: when Jesus returns, riding the white horse. Just as a side-bar; those who ride the horse direct its course.

    I agree that the sixth seal has not been fulfilled, but it has been opened and read so that we may understand.

    We all have the Scroll to consume. The Scroll is the Bible. We should eat all of it and then it will become part of us. It is sweet when we first eat it, because it tells of our Father and salvation, but it sours in our stomach as we realize that we cannot be like Jesus and also that many will be condemned to a life without God.

    The two Witnesses are the Holy Spirit and Jesus. They are witnesses to God’s plan and to God. These are the only two that are perfect and because of that, they are the only ones qualified to witness: no one else is qualified.

    Just to proceed a little with my understanding that the white horse symbolizes governments, when Jesus returns as King of Kings, He comes riding a white horse: the government that He controls. He comes with war, the red horse, right behind Him and with the law, the black horse, right behind the red one, and of course the pale horse bringing up the rear.

    Going a little farther, when Jesus came the first time, He came on a different steed. A steed that did not show power, but a new steed, that no one had ridden before. A different government that no one had even imagined. All of the horses still followed, just as in Revelation. The red horse, because Jesus said (Mat 10:34 NIV) “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” The black horse, because He said (John 13:34 NIV) “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” And then of course, the pale horse follows closely behind.

    I understand your plight of a low battery better than you think. When you reach my age you will find your internal battery a bit weak as well! Still great, just a bit slower.

  4. OK I get how you are seeing revelation now. Now I ask that you see it different.
    John is not seeing everything as in revealed all at once as it always has been but is seeing as in revelations 1:19
    Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter……..
    So then we as the readers have to understand what has been seen (past being revealed) things that are (which is our past but John’s present) and which shall be hereafter (which is our now to future.) We know its no because Israel is a nation again.

    Now re-read what my original thought about the 1st seal: I have studied many commentaries from many variables of views of Revelation.  Pre-rapture, Post-rapture, and Mid-rapture.  Rapture; meaning catching or snatching away quickly.  I do not claim to know when this event takes place, but I am now under the impression that the first seal and possible 2nd seal to be already opened.  Which then is my first discussion…

    Many a scholar has mentioned that the horseman on the white horse is the anti-christ to be released on the earth after the rapture.  (Pre-tribulation) At one point I would agree for I loved reading ‘left behind’ series.  However, after reading and re-reading revelation I kept getting a stumbling block in my studies when assuming the white horse is the anti-christ.  I started checking other commentary and although all their studies are fascinating I still get this stumbling block in revelation.  Until I was doing my normal day routines with my favorite Christian songs and The Holy Spirit flashed a thought to look again at the section in revelation where John saw under the thrown, those martyred for there testimony in seal 5.  I ran to read the section again then not getting why I was told to read it I prayed and went back to my chores.  I then finished one task and moving to another and again  another thought of; the Angel with one foot on earth the other in the sea and the little book which is described after the 6th trumpet; made me run to the Bible again.  This time I prayed first then read and after thinking how amazing it was I strongly felt a need to turn back to the first seal.  Wipping my mind of all past studies I just read what John saw and remembered John was at the thrown before the book of seals was opened and many see this  as a futuristic view but Revelation 5 says no man in heaven, earth etc was worthy and then Jesus (the lamb) came mist the thrown proven worthy.  Which then light bulb went off in my head that if John is seeing (not after 70 A D ) but before 70 A D.  Like the time after Jesus left the disciples as to send the Holy Spirit to earth to conquer our hearts (Christians) then after Jesus Christ takes the book from God Almighty he opens first seal.  White always being described as clean and Holy releases the white horse with a bow and a crown.  Others say the bow has no arrow but what if the bow is not a robin hoods bow but a bow with God’s covenant (rainbow) a crown usually is victor.  As in Jesus Christ victory over spiritual (second death) and as the four horsemen are really spirit form beings it clicked that the first seal was opened in 30+ A.D. and released the Holy Spirit to conquer the hearts of men who chose to follow Jesus Christ as to take over to help man live a life defeating sin.  This put everything in perspective that the seals were already being open and separates the seals from the trumpets and bowls because the seals were not all of God’s wrath on earth.  The 5th seal shows that not all the seals were judgements.  When you start to think of the seals different than trumpets and bowls you see that all the trumpets bring wrath.  The sixth seal is opened and a earthquake but that isn’t all for the 6th seal John also sees 144,000 of God’s chosen (Jewish tribes from Israel) are sealed by God and again that is not all, John sees those which came out of great tribulations (not the or from) and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.  This my friends are those saved by Jesus Christ in the church age and seen by John during 6th seal in heaven worshipping the lamb.  So the 6th seal is a good news for saved beings yet it also begins the great tribulations for which we will escape from for we were brought out of it.  Then seventh seal is quiet in heaven for 30 minutes.. WOW 30 minutes and not even a tick of a clock! Then trumpets handed out……  wrath begins… This is not Pre- nor Mid- or Post.  The seals are not tribulations but the fulfilment of church age.  Interesting enough when you follow this study line it puts perspective on 5th trumpet lining up with the two witnesses and the 3 1/2 years with just the trumpets but another catching away moment for the witnesses and those who turned to Jesus Christ during this time.  Then the bowls which is stated to be on men who refused to repent.  This wrath is 3 1/2 more with satan revealed to all and God’s mysterious revealed.

    I am still studying this and reading over and over and lots of prayer and letting go of past beliefs in order to let the Holy Spirit work. And I am not saying that its important to be right for; for me It doesn’t matter how this plays out because I washed my robe in the blood of the Lamb. PRAISE Jesus Christ. But I get excited when something opens up to me like this…

    Those in the 5th seal are those that have been killed for there testimony or martyred for Christ. This is after Jesus Christ died for there is reference to the lamb. There is a special reward for them. They are separate only because of the way they died. There will be more in future. But this doesn’t include the elders nor saints. King David would not be under the thrown for he was not martyred for Jesus Christ. Remember there is a time change in heaven for Jesus went to prepare us a place. So things change in heaven as circumstances change. Before the lamb was slain and after the lamb was slain. This change is shared at the thrown where the four beast and elders turned to praise the worthy lamb.
    Then seals opened (were the pre written? Of course but not fulfilled until the lamb was slain to be opened and released so there would be a difference if first seal was gov’t given then there world be a difference in the to time periods of gov’t but there wasn’t in fact gov’t’s seem to repeat themselves in error. Gov’t is only to show man can not be good without God. And even when Jesus rules in the 1000 year rein it is shown that there are men who chose not to follow God’s rules when the devil is released again.
    The only thing that fits is the Holy Spirit had to come after Jesus went to heaven in order to protect and conquer for Jesus Christ followes. Within us.
    As for the scroll/little book Ezekiel ate his scroll and it (Ezekiel 3:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.)
    Then John it ( 10And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.)
    This is important because before Jesus old testament is bitter (in Ezekiel’s mouth) for the sin of man then sweet (in Ezekiel belly) For Jesus the messiah is coming. Then john (new testament) is sweet (in mouth because begins with Jesus Christ) but bitter in belly for wrath of God is coming.
    This two witnesses are important and since Jesus is judge and forgives and washes away sin then the two witnesses would be pure in Christ Jesus.
    I am just saying take another look it is fascinating in how revelation becomes a road map for us today. A atlas for our narrow path if you will.
    I do believe this dispensation though that I am copying from another site that I fill was very informative in God’s plan though:

    been fulfilled; we are living in the sixth, probably toward its close, and have before us the seventh, and last: the millennium.

    1. Man innocent. This dispensation extends from the creation of Adam in Genesis 2:7 to the expulsion from Eden. Adam, created innocent and ignorant of good and evil, was placed in the garden of Eden with his wife, Eve, and put under responsibility to abstain from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The dispensation of innocence resulted in the first failure of man, and in its far-reaching effects, the most disastrous. It closed in judgment: “So he drove out the man.” See Gen. 1:26; Gen. 2:16,17; Gen. 3:6; Gen. 3:22-24.)

    2. Man under conscience. By the fall, Adam and Eve acquired and transmitted to the race the knowledge of good and evil. This gave conscience a basis for right moral judgment, and hence the race came under this measure of responsibility-to do good and eschew evil. The result of the dispensation of conscience, from Eden to the flood (while there was no institution of government and of law), was that “all flesh had corrupted his way on the earth,” that “the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually,” and God closed the second testing of the natural man with judgment: the flood. See Gen. 3:7, 22; Gen. 6:5,11-12; Gen. 7:11-12, 23.)

    3. Man in authority over the earth. Out of the fearful judgment of the flood God saved eight persons, to whom, after the waters were assuaged, He gave the purified earth with ample power to govern it. This, Noah and his descendants were responsible to do. The dispensation of human government resulted, upon the plain of Shinar, in the impious attempt to become independent of God and closed in judgment: the confusion of tongues. (See Gen. 9: 1, 2; Gen. 11: 1-4; Gen. 11:5-8.)

    4. Man under promise. Out of the dispersed descendants of the builders of Babel, God called one man, Abram, with whom He enters into covenant. Some of the promises to Abram and his descendants were purely gracious and unconditional. These either have been or will yet be literally fulfilled. Other promises were conditional upon the faithfulness and obedience of the Israelites. Every one of these conditions was violated, and the dispensation of promise resulted in the failure of Israel and closed in thejudgment of bondage in Egypt.

    The book of Genesis, which opens with the sublime words, “In the beginning God created,” closes with, “In a coffin in Egypt.” (See Gen. 12:1-3; Gen. 13:14-17; Gen. 15:5; Gen. 26:3; Gen. 28:12-13; Exod. 1: 13-14.)

    5. Man under law. Again the grace of God came to the help of helpless man and redeemed the chosen people out of the hand of the oppressor. In the wilderness of Sinai He proposed to them the covenant of law. Instead of humbly pleading for a continued relation of grace, they presumptuously answered: “All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.” The history of Israel in the wilderness and in the land is one long record of flagrant, persistent violation of the law, and at last, after multiplied warnings, God closed the testing of man by law in judgment: first Israel, and then Judah, were driven out of the land into a dispersion which still continues. A feeble remnant returned under Ezra and Nehemiah, of which, in due time, Christ came: “Born of a woman-made under the law.” Both Jews and Gentiles conspired to crucify Him. (See Exod. 19:1-8; 2 Kings 17:1-18; 2 Kings 25: 1 -11; Acts 2:22-23; Acts 7:5152; Rom. 3:19-20; Rom. 10:5; Gal. 3: 10.)

    6. Man under grace. The sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ introduced the dispensation of pure grace, which means undeserved favor, or God giving righteousness, instead of God requiring righteousness, as under law. Salvation, perfect and eternal, is now freely offered to Jew and Gentile upon the acknowledgment of sin, or repentance, with faith in Christ.

    “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29). “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47). “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24). “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:27-28). “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

    The predicted result of this testing of man under grace is judgment upon an unbelieving world and an apostate church. (See Luke 17:26-30; Luke 18:8; 2 Thess. 2:7-12; Rev. 3:15-16.)

    The first event in the closing of this dispensation will be the descent of the Lord from heaven, when sleeping saints will be raised and, together with believers then living, caught up “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (I Thess. 4:16-17). Then follows the brief period called “the great tribulation.” (See Jer. 30:5-7; Dan. 12:1; Zeph. 1:15-18; Matt. 24:21-22.)

    After this the personal return of the Lord to the earth in power and great glory occurs, and the judgments which introduce the seventh, and last dispensation. (See Matt. 25:31-46 and Matt. 24:29- 30.)

    7. Man under the personal reign of Christ. After the purifying judgments which attend the personal return of Christ to the earth, He will reign over restored Israel and over the earth for one thousand years. This is the period commonly called the millennium. The seat of His power will be Jerusalem, and the saints, including the saved of the dispensation of grace, namely the church, will be associated with Him in His glory. (See Isa. 2:1-4; Isa. 11; Acts 15:14-17; Rev. 19:11-21; Rev. 20:1-6.

    But when Satan is “loosed a little season,” he finds the natural heart as prone to evil as ever, and easily gathers the nations to battle against the Lord and His saints, and this last dispensation closes, like all the others, in judgment. The great white throne is set, the wicked dead are raised and finally judged, and then come the “new heaven and a new earth.” Eternity is begun. (See Rev. 20:3,7-15; Rev. 21 and 22.)

  5. astudent says:

    Kay,

    I have a hard time following your thoughts. I believe you to be a very intelligent person and the problem is that I am only of average intelligence. It seems to me that intelligent people, because they are quick, flick from one thought to another. I am not comfortable flicking from one thought to another, so I do not do it. Ha, but then because I am only average I cannot do it. We should weigh carefully what is said (Cor 14:29) and I am not fast, so many words really slow me down.

    You begin your comment with other’s thoughts on tribulation. To me that is someone else’s homework: as are commentaries and books about God and His Word. I am interested in your thoughts, not others that are not commenting here.

    As I read your thoughts I see statements that I do not accept. Maybe they are true and maybe not. Some statements can be both true and false, depending on where you stand as you view them.

    That may seem an oxymoron, but let me give you an example.

    You said, “Like the time after Jesus left the disciples as to send the Holy Spirit to earth to conquer our hearts” I cannot accept that the Holy Spirit came to conquer our hearts. The word “conquer” means to 1.To defeat or subdue by force, especially by force of arms. 2.To gain or secure control of by or as if by force of arms: scientists battling to conquer disease; a singer who conquered the operatic world. 3. To overcome or surmount by physical, mental, or moral force (The American Heritage Dictionary). The Holy Spirit came to teach us all things; not to overcome us by force. That is why I do not see the rider of the white horse in the first seal as Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, or our Father as none of the three use force.

    Here is where there are two views that oppose and then agree when viewed from a different angle. In this age the rider of the white horse cannot be any of the three (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit), because none of the three force anyone to do anything, but when judgment comes and the next age begins the rider on the white horse will be Jesus the King of Kings and He will indeed ride forth to conquer. (Rev 19:11-21) The red horse of war follows, as does the black horse of the law (Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.) And of course the pale horse follows closely behind the other three horses.

    So, if you view the four horses and riders from this age the horses are the same, but the rider of the white horse is the enemy of God and if viewed from the next age the rider is the friend of God. What seemed an oxymoron is not at all, when viewed from different positions.

    None of this will seem true to you, unless you see the horses as I do: government, war, law, and Hell. I do not believe that you should accept my word or understanding. It is my homework; not yours. You must do your own homework Please, do not accept my, or anyone’s homework as yours.

    Here is something else that seems wrong to me. You say, “Government is only to show man can not be good without God.” Man cannot be good period: with God or without God. Governments are agents of wrath, to punish those who do not do what God wants (Rom 13:3&4). It seems to me that we are given a conscience to show us what is right or wrong and a government to punish us when we do wrong.

    I do not disagree with everything that you say. You said, “The only thing that fits is the Holy Spirit had to come after Jesus went to heaven” and I agree with that statement. It certainly does fit (John 15:26 & 16:7).

    You said,” This is important because before Jesus old testament is bitter (in Ezekiel’s mouth) for the sin of man then sweet (in Ezekiel belly)” The book was the same for both Ezekiel and John; sweet in their mouths, though it turned bitter in John’s stomach. It might have been the same in both their stomachs, as Ezekiel went forth in bitterness after he ate the scroll (Ezek 3:14).

    I did try to see the seven seals differently and though you make some fine points I was not able to change my views very much, but the exercise was worth the effort.

    Thanks for the comments as they made me consider and reconsider my understanding of the Word of God.

  6. creationwitness says:

    To all,

    In the end the only conquering to actually be accomplished will be done with love. For me that sheds new light on the white horse. Conquering by war has never lasted nor solved any problems hence nothing was really conquered.

    Two other notes from expressionoffaith and I quote from above:

    “6. Man under grace. The sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ introduced the dispensation of pure grace, which means undeserved favor, or God giving righteousness, instead of God requiring righteousness, as under law. Salvation, perfect and eternal, is now freely offered to Jew and Gentile upon the acknowledgment of sin, or repentance, with faith in Christ.”

    This is something that I in particular must keep in mind. Too often I find myself weighing heavily on the written rather than the Spiritual Law. Thank you for the reminder and writing it so clear.

    Second:

    “The first event in the closing of this dispensation will be the descent of the Lord from heaven, when sleeping saints will be raised and, together with believers then living, caught up”

    But wait. Didn’t this start to happen directly after Christ’s resurrection and doesn’t this somehow fit with what we are discussing in Something Old and Something New? Look:

    Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
    (52)  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    (53)  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    I think there is a lot more to this than any of us are seeing yet. I do not totally agree with astudent in that the physical one thousand year reign of Christ has began, but I do believe the first resurrection has and isn’t the reign of Christ actually spiritual and so maybe astudent is in some way correct?

    Just thoughts.

  7. astudent says:

    creationwitness

    I do not understand what you mean when you say “the physical one thousand year reign of Christ”.

    Are you referring to the thousand years meaning exactly a thousand years or are you referring to Christ’s reign as a spiritual reign or a physical reign?

    I will say this. Just because most of the world will not obey the King, does not mean that the King does not reign.

    The reign of Christ is not like the reign of a human king. A human king that reigns immediately punishes those who do not obey him, but Christ does not.

    As I think about it the position of king, when applied to Jesus, is only an honorary title. That is not said to reduce the honor that we give and should give to our King.

    Governments of this earth are agents of wrath (Rom 13:4), but Jesus is not an agent of wrath. If everyone obeys the law there is no need for an agent of wrath and I believe that after judgment we will be perfected and never again disobey. So the kingship of Jesus is not like any other kingship.

    Jesus is a King of love, not a King of wrath.

  8. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I used the word physical out of context. If anything it should have read spiritual as that is what I think you believe it is. I am not saying it is or it isn’t. I think it is something to think about as it seems to fit and I believe there is something there that we are missing.

    One thing that Matthew 25:52-53 seems to point at is the possibility of the first resurrection having commenced after Christ’s resurrection. I find that interesting as those verses always seemed out of place and without good explanation. Now the question is if the first resurrection points to the beginning of Christ’s reign and at this time I can only answer Yes.

  9. astudent says:

    creationwitness,
    Yes, I do think of the reign of Jesus as spiritual.

    Matthew 27:52-53 seemed out of place and without explanation to me also, but we are given the Holy Spirit to teach us all things (John 14:26). Even though I am a slow learner, I believe He is a perfect teacher and I am slowly learning all things.

    It is not me, but the Holy Spirit that knows all things. What a joy to learn!

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