I believe that God has given me an illustration to explain the importance of searching out His Word, which is the Bible.

I am posting this for those who do not follow all of the comments. (I really don’t blame you if you do not)

Our Father has given us a great gift in the Bible, and as one studies it, one of the things that stands out is that we must search out understanding. (Prov 25:2 NIV) “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.”

You see, God hides understanding and wisdom from everyone. One must search it out to acquire it. That is not too hard to understand if you look at it through the eyes of our Father. He has given us everything that we have. Even the lost has been given all that they have, though they do not grant God the least respect or gratitude. If one doesn’t care to search out wisdom and understanding, then he or she, in my opinion, just doesn’t care very much about God.

I believe that God wants children. Not just any children, but children that want to be His children. Eternal life is one of the rewards of becoming a child of God, but that is a reward, not the goal of becoming a child of God. The goal is to love God and to reach that goal requires understanding God. God is only revealed completely in His Word: the Bible.

Everyone wants to live forever. I believe that it is wrong to turn to God if the only reason is to acquire eternal life. It is true that eternal life is one of the reasons that humans turn to God, because His Word says “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom” (Psa 111:10 NIV) and we all fear death. Even the Muslim that states he loves death shows that he does not, because he wants to live forever in a paradise of his own desires, but the fate of anyone else is of no concern to him. That is not the kind of children God wants. The person that has no regard for others would have no regard for God, when they did not get what they want.

Well, enough of the lead in, here is the illustration.

The Bible, which is the Word of God, is like a jigsaw puzzle. This puzzle is offered to everyone, but those who do not care or appreciate the God of the universe will not even take the gift. Some will take the gift, but will not even try to assemble it!

The picture that is produced when the puzzle is assembled is shown plainly on the box that the puzzle comes in. It is the same puzzle, with the same picture, that is offered to all mankind: each individual. It should be obvious that one does not assemble a jigsaw puzzle in order to discover what the picture looks like, because the picture is on the box. A jigsaw puzzle is assembled to see how the pieces fit together, that is the challenge; not to just see the picture. The picture can sometimes be used as a clue and other times as proof of proper assembly.

God’s jigsaw puzzle is the Bible and the pieces are the verses. The proper thing to do is to take the Puzzle to a quiet place, dump it out and start to assemble the pieces (verses) so that you can understand how they fit together. God even numbered the pieces of the Puzzle and we call the pieces verses.

This blog is an attempt, by me, to show you how I have put the pieces of my Puzzle together. It is only an attempt to help you solve your Puzzle. No one can put your Puzzle together but you.

If I could assemble your Puzzle for you, I would be responsible to do so, but then you would place your trust in me and not the Lord. So God will not allow it, and rightly so, as I am only a man, full of sin, defiled, and not worthy to reveal God to anyone.

So you might say that it is not important to put the pieces together, because you already know the picture. The picture on the box shows that there is a God and that God loves man and saves those who turn to Him. Well, even the lost can see that.

As I assembled my Puzzle I found that oil represents understanding and understanding is worth all that I have.

Then there is the parable, the part of the picture that indicates oil is important. That is Matthew 25:1-12.

Do not be found to be without oil. Get as much as you can.

Consider the part of my Puzzle that God has shown me.

(Prov 4:1-7 NIV) “Listen, my sons, to a father’s instruction; pay attention and gain understanding. I give you sound learning, so do not forsake my teaching. When I was a boy in my father’s house, still tender, and an only child of my mother, he taught me and said, “Lay hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands and you will live. Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or swerve from them. Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.” Do not stop at verse seven, but read the rest of the chapter as it supports the first part, “Though it cost all you have, get understanding”.

So, do not look for wisdom in me, or your friends, or your favorite preacher, or any Commentary, or anything but the Word of God. That is your Puzzle and the greatest gift God gives to the living. Appreciate it, study it, live it as best as you can, even if it cost all that you have.

Aw, but what do you own but yourself? Give everything back to God, because you really do not own anything and God will honor your truth and your trust.

The best advice that I can give is for you to go to a quiet place, dump out your Puzzle, and begin to put it together.

35 Responses to THE PUZZLE

  1. creationwitness says:


    I really like this piece of the puzzle because it is one of the corner pieces. It is always easiest to find the corners of the puzzle, but they are also the easiest to build from. I don’t know much about construction, but what I do know is that the foundation must be built first and if it is from stone then one starts with a corner not in the middle of the wall.

    Among others, I also found this statement to be of significant importance:

    “The picture can sometimes be used as a clue and other times as proof of proper assembly.”

    The reason I find it so, is because the picture in many of the churches doesn’t match the Word. I am not putting them down. It is just that if they referred to the picture then they compared the picture given to the one that they are building then they might see more clearly. I am also not saying that I can see the picture any better because it really is a big picture and not all of it can be seen at once. What I am saying is that we need to constantly refer back to the picture and stop trying to force the pieces into places that they don’t fit. It is only a matter of time before we realize the mistakes and have to disassemble in preparation for reassembly. That in itself is also not a problem except for the limited amount of time we have.

    I can only thank God for his grace and mercy. Without which we would most certainly all fail.

    I believe at judgement, we are to show our imperfect picture for analyses in order to discover our next placement in a larger picture and in our imperfection, we will be perfectly shaped for that fit 🙂

    I appreciate you taking the time to write down your thoughts. It is a difficult task to put them in order. One that I am not gifted with.

  2. astudent says:


    I have to laugh! It is indeed a difficult task to place one’s thoughts in order. My thoughts are not in the same order as your thoughts. What I find even more difficult is to understand another’s order of thoughts. Well, that might not even be possible.

    I believe that you do a pretty good job of explaining your thoughts.

    You know that I always seem to disagree and I appreciate your patience.

    Just so you know and for me to stay in character, I do not believe we will be judged at the great Day of Judgment. We have already admitted that we are sinners and have been judged.

    The dead will be judged at the end of time, but we are alive! (Rev 20:12-15) The lake of fire is the second death and we have been saved from the second death, which is to be removed from the presence of God. Our name is in the Book of Life!

    By the way, I had not thought of the corners of the puzzle as the best way to start assembly. That is a good point.

  3. creationwitness says:


    I agree with you about what is referred to by some as “the white throne judgement” Rev 20:11, but I was speaking of the judgement of reward (if it can be called so) keeping the parable of talents in mind and such verses as Rev 22:12

  4. astudent says:


    I do not consider that we will receive different rewards in Heaven. I know that one can see the parable of the talents as different rewards, but if you look closely, you will see that the one with five talents received the same reward as the one with two talents: “You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!”

    Also consider the parable in Matthew 20:1-16. They all received the same reward, although some worked more than others.

    As I see it, I do not want more than others. If I have more than someone else, then I should share with them until we are equal.

    That will not work in this world, but in the next world I believe it will be the normal thing to do.

  5. creationwitness says:


    I am speaking of position of work after being granted entry. It could be seen as a type of payment, but it would not be a monetary one. It is one of what a person is capable of doing just as the men in the parable of talents were awarded. According to talent. In my eyes not something I desire to shirk off as being uneccessary or something I should delay (5 virgins and the man with one unused talent). We may be granted entry by faith, but my faith demands good works which is true joy and love. I call it judgement because it is based on our accomplishments here ie. How well we have understood (completed) the puzzle.

  6. creationwitness says:

    *[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

  7. astudent says:


    You raise a good point. I suppose that I see the parable of the talents as though I am a man with very few talents. Maybe just one and I have been wise enough to put it in a bank. There is very little work in placing it in a bank.

    I agree that there are things that are required of us to keep the gift of God and one way to look at those things is with the understanding that they are work.

    However, it is difficult for me to view them as work, because I enjoy our Father so much. The main point of the Bible, as I understand it, is to tell us about our Father and it is great joy to search out and find understanding. The more understanding one has the more love for God is gained.

    That covers the first Royal Command. I find the second command a joy also and not work.

    This is probably a case of, what is the definition that one applies to the word work.

    Thinking along those lines, I looked up the word work and I found that there are 54 definitions for the same word! “Work out” is one listed and it has 10 definitions of it’s own!

    The 27th definition would be the one that I would apply to the phrase “good works” That is” to have an effect or influence, as on a person or on the mind or feelings of a person”,

    It seems to me that good works are an example to others of our Father. One way to view it is a work, because it takes effort, but everything takes effort: even thinking.

    The concept of work is really confusing when someone, who plays a game well, plays it for practice. Is he, or she playing, or working?

    Hummmm, one way I look at your comment I agree and yet from a different angle I do not! However, even when I do not, I believe you are correct!

    Ha, are you confused yet?

  8. astudent says:


    I do not understand your reason for quoting Revelation 11:18. If it was to indicate that we would be judged, I do not view it that way. The way I see it is, the dead will be judged and we will receive our reward: new spiritual bodies, etc.

  9. creationwitness says:


    I used to be somewhat confused over work, but it is made clear in some of the issues that you have also brought up over time and resting. If God is not a liar then we know that when he says he rested on the seventh day, then he did rest and if it is still the seventh day as you have commented, then he is still at rest.

    How do I put the contradiction together that arises in John 5:17? First it is no contradiction. It is a different work. In Genesis it says the heavens and earth were finished and then goes on to say he rested on the seventh day from all his work which “he had made”, blessed and sanctified it etc.

    My conclusion is that the work at present is spiritual and that is why I find it joyful. When it was the work of this world it was only from paycheck to paycheck meaning absolutely nothing “empty”. Even the unconverted feel that. Jesus whom it is said “broke the sabbath” never did so except in man’s eyes. He “filled” it’s purpose. He taught and healed. This convinces me that the sabbath still has purpose and that purpose is to learn how to focus on God at least one day per week and on the day given so as to create good habit. Some people like yourself are focused on God at every given moment anyway and so I question if it is still necessary. My answer to that is yes, to fulfill all righteousness and that you are doing. To the pharisees doing any kind of work was against the law. Except of course unless they needed to water their cattle. They totally missed the point.

    I quoted Rev 11:18 because I am led to believe that every man’s reward is different according to what he is capable of. Yes, I agree that we all enter God’s kingdom no matter how much or little we have done, but that is not the end of all things. Going back to the talents read the other version in Luke 19 where every man is given the same beginning and yet rewarded accordingly.

    I use the word judgement because I feel if a person is to be rewarded then he will be rewarded according to his work. I wouldn’t expect Paul’s awesome reward for the insignificant amount of work that I have done. I laugh when I write that, but it is in all honesty.

    I very much agree with you also in that if I have more I will share it with my siblings, but not to those that are unworthy. I like our Father am not moved with cheer to spoil a child. I have seen the destruction it accomplishes and so reward must also be judged.

    In some sense I feel I already have my reward. The additional rewards are not what I work for. I work because I love God’s law. I see it as the only way to function correctly without which all is vanity.

    Thank you brother. When you write down your thoughts it compels me to think over and explain myself which helps to clarify my own thoughts 🙂

  10. astudent says:


    I see two things that we view from just a small angle of difference and it results in a rather large different view of the picture.

    The first is I think that you seem to believe that Gen 2:2 states that God entered His rest. I thought the same, until I looked closer at the verse.

    The verse says that God entered His rest when “all” of His work was done. However, all of His work is not done, so He has yet to enter His rest.

    (Gen 2:2 KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    I quoted the King James Version, because it seems clearer, or at least clearer as to how I view my understanding. It says “on” the seventh day, not by the seventh day, as the NIV says. Days are made up of hours and it is possible to be in a day when something that is going too happened, has not yet happened.

    Perhaps this is a bit clearer when we look at (Rev 14:7 NIV) “He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”” Notice the time is said as “the hour” and the same is said in Rev 18:10, 17 & 19.

    I am saying that it is the seventh day, but not yet the hour that God will judge man.

    As far as dividing physical work from spiritual work, it seems to me that God has always done both; physical and spiritual work.

    Look at the words of Elihu in the book of Job. (Job 33:4 NIV) “The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” (Job 33:6 NIV) I am just like you before God; I too have been taken from clay.

    Didn’t the Spirit of God give us physical life, first and then spiritual life? Weren’t we also taken from clay? Then isn’t God still working: creating men physically and also spiritually?

    Look at Job 36:27-30 (NIV) “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind. Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion? See how he scatters his lightning about him, bathing the depths of the sea.” Doesn’t this still happen and because it does is not God still working physically?

    While we are considering Job, look at Job 34:14-15 (NIV) “If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust.” God has not withdrawn and entered His rest. He is still creating: not creating the earth or sun and moon, as they are complete, but He is still creating mankind.

    Actually, as I consider the universe, I see that nothing about creation is complete. The electron cannot continue spinning about the center of the atom, without something adding back to it the energy that was used, and is used, to move it! Our Father is adding that energy to all of the atoms that make up the universe.

    You say, “If God is not a liar then we know that when he says he rested on the seventh day, then he did rest”, but Jesus said, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” Which do you believe? As I see it, you must choose one verse to believe and then from your point of view, you cannot believe the other.

    I know that you believe both, so there must be a way to reconcile the two and for me there is: Geneses 2:2&3 are a prophecy about the future. I understand that you believe the type of work has changed, but I see both physical and spiritual work being accomplished all through man’s time; including now.

    Thanks for pointing out the parable in Luke 19. As I considered that parable I reached a level of understanding that I did not posses before. You see I understand that to want more than others is basically greed and so for me too work for a greater reward than others would be wrong.

    The truth is I would rather you have more than me. If the God that made the universe loves me and wants me as His child anything more is only icing on the cake.

    My Father loves Jesus more than He loves me, but what is that to me? Actually it is a wonderful thing that He does, because when He looks at me He sees the one He loves the most! I believe that God loves those who love Him and I believe that He returns love in like manner. Jesus was perfect in love and deserves more than me. He is the King of kings and earned the right to be so. He obeyed our Father and received a great reward for doing so, but I am convinced that He would have obeyed, even if there was no reward.

    The master in both parables did not give the money to the servants, but entrusted them with it, so the increase was to be gained for the master: it never was for the personal gain of the servants… I had always looked at the parables as indicating that one should work for personal gain and that just felt wrong to me. It still does and now I see that they were not working for gain for themselves, but gain for their master.

    I do not base my understanding on feelings, as feelings will lead one astray more often than up the right path. However, having said that, I do not want more than others and that feels right to me. Working so that I might gain more than others always felt wrong. Now I am no longer at odds with the parables.

    Actually, I hope God gives you more than me. Truth is I do not like cake with icing, as much as I like it without. It seems too sweet to me with icing on it.

    Now, for the second thing that we see from a slightly different angle. You say, “I very much agree with you also in that if I have more I will share it with my siblings, but not to those that are unworthy”. However, we are told to be like Jesus and Jesus even died for the unworthy!

    We are told in Matthew 5:39 not to resist an evil person. I think that we would both agree that an evil person is an unworthy person. Please consider Matthew 5: 38-48 and understand that God is perfect and gives to the unworthy as well as those who are different. I almost wrote ‘to those who are worthy’, but I know that I am not worthy and God does not give to me because I am worthy.

    However, our Father does give to the worthy: that is to Jesus, the only one that is worthy. God gave unworthy me to Him. Hallelujah!!!!

    I go to a church that holds to an understanding that to drink any alcohol is a sin. They cannot or will not accept Proverbs 31:6&7 (NIV) “Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.”, because they think of those who are perishing as unworthy. However, though I do not go looking for drunks, I am pleased to buy a drunk a drink, because, if he or she does not change, the only time they can be happy is when they are drunk. I do not want to take that away from them. Ha, I have found that at some point I have to stop buying, as I will end up with nothing!

    When we act like we are better than others and treat them as unworthy we condemn ourselves, because we are also unworthy. We must not forget where we came from (2 Pet 1:9).

    Again, you have been a great help to me, and again I thank you.

    May our Father bless you with more than He blesses me.

  11. creationwitness says:


    I have to skip back to verse 1 and when I do, I have to believe what it says. I can’t read it any other way.

    Genesis 2:1-3 KJV
    (1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    (3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    I believe our different perspectives are because of the definitions given to the word “work”. My definition is that we have both physical and spiritual work. God’s physical work ended on the sixth day. It was finished, but his spiritual work continues and he made us an example by sanctifying and resting. Are we in God’s seventh day? I believe it to be very, very likely. You then quoted Revelation 14:7 which backs up that God’s physical creation was “made”. I don’t deny being in an hour of the seventh day. I also don’t believe that God can’t continue some of the physical work. He will step in as necessary.

    Our daily work is what we do to survive. Our sabbath work is what we do to learn, replenish and live. It should go without saying that God rested on the seventh day so as to give us an example and not to actually because he needed rest. Very much like Jesus baptism. It was to “fulfil all righteousness”. It wouldn’t be a very good example to break one’s own guidelines.

    I am not trying to deny that God’s work has discontinued only that his focus has changed. Only God really knows what that focus is, but if we try and apply discontinuing our own physical labour on the sabbath, we will soon find ourselves in trouble. The Pharisees took it literally for every little thing and this is why many people now do not follow. They believe it to be too difficult and they don’t know that it is going to help them. It is to shift our focus from this material creation. Exactly what God did or is doing. He shifted his focus from the material to the spiritual.

    Jesus was in trouble for healing on the sabbath because the Pharisees considered that to be work. In all truth there is only one kind of work for us to do and that is God’s work. Everything else is only in support of our desire to learn. If we need to “break” sabbath to feed and water our animals, then “break” sabbath. Otherwise they are going to die. What kind of healing is that?
    Now what you are saying about greed is entirely true, but I am not saying that we do more to get more nor am I saying the opposite. We do what needs to be done and we do it with all of our might. If there is any competition, it is with ourself to improve. To become better and more perfect at what we do. Many verses back this up.

    If you will notice the parable of the talents in Matt 25, one man receives 5, one 2 and the other only 1. Now ask why was this man given 5 in the first place? My conclusion is that he was worthy of it. The man with only one talent failed. He was only worthy of one until found not even worthy of that. God doesn’t spoil us. That would be a dangerous thing. Nor should we spoil one another. That would be just as dangerous. Do we give an irresponsible teen a car to drive? I hope we use good judgment.

    Now you also mention that they we entrusted with the talents and not given them and that is true. It all goes back to God’s work and why we do it. What is it to gain the world?

    Jesus died for all of us unworthy sinners in order to save us. Without his grace we would have no hope. Eventually we will all come to terms with what he has done for us, repent and follow him. Until then, we need to survive to have a chance to learn. I have no doubt in my mind that he wouldn’t have sacrificed himself if he knew it was in vain. What would be the point?

    It is only a matter of time until we become wise enough to actually follow God. We have a good idea what happens to the unworthy when time is up. Understanding that we are presently unworthy forces us to consider what to do in order to become worthy children.

    You may see contradiction in how I am using worthy or unworthy, but I can’t easily use another word except maybe responsible.

    It isn’t about getting more. It is about taking care of what we have in order to be found worthy of taking care of more. Does that sound any better? I am sorry if I gave you the impression of me running after the things in this world. My treasure is in heaven. Quality of work cannot be compared and there is no quality without the love of the work. It therefor is not work in my mind. That is only a word.

    The one who dies with the most toys is …. dead!

    One last thing; Romans 14 becomes very important. First because Paul is telling us that our conscious mind is important. If we knowingly continue in sin, I am sure it will only bring punishment. Paul uses the term “be fully persuaded”. He also points out we should not be judging another man’s servant one way or the other. This is all in regards to “doubtful disputations”. The sabbath holds no doubt for me, but I had to prove it to myself. I now understand why it is commanded. Also being sanctified by God sets it far apart from every other day. Doubtful? That might not be what you want to hear, but it is the truth as I understand it. If you are fully persuaded not to follow, then no worries. I wouldn’t think it would help anyone if they were not convinced that it was the correct thing to do.

    Thank you astudent. It is always a pleasure to think about, learn and comment on God. I always understand something valuable.

    Bless you brother.

  12. astudent says:


    I apologize for not answering quickly. I will not bore you with an excuse, but I am sorry. Please forgive me.

    We have a very similar problem with Genesis 2:1-3. Verse 3 says “from all his work” and the word all is “kol” (Strong’s Concordance H3605). Therefore, I can’t read it any other way, than the way I understand it.

    I cannot split the word all and because of that I cannot split God’s work into spiritual work and physical work.

    Even saying that, I see stars exploding (being erased) so I ask myself, “Is God done with the universe?” and my answer is no. My answer agrees with John 5:17. By the way, Jesus was referring to the work He had done on the Sabbath and He included His father. If His Father was/is always at his work, then He was also working on man’s Sabbath.

    The word “always” is also a word that I can’t read any other way.

    I look at John 5:19 and see that if Jesus was working on the Sabbath, and He sees his Father working and always does what His Father does, then His Father is working on the Sabbath as well.

    I am quite sure that I will not be “found worthy”. I will not be condemned because I am clothed with Christ. My sins are hidden from God by the white robe of my Savior. It is not me that will be found worthy, but because Jesus was found worthy I am saved.

    This is the seventh day of God and in the seventh day we can do no work to acquire salvation. The Sabbath was a symbol to the Jews that this day was coming and now is and we can do no work for our salvation.

    The Apostles changed the day of worship to Sunday, which is the first day of the week. That symbolized a New Covenant: the Old Covenant is passed away and so I do not celebrate the Old Covenant, but I will worship on all of man’s days, because now they all fall on the Seventh of God’s days.

    I truly am fully persuaded not to celebrate the Sabbath, but to celebrate Sunday, a day of a new week, symbolizing a New Covenant, and I hope I have been clear as to why.

    As for our responsibilities after we have asked for and accepted our Savior, I believe that we are supposed to obey the law to the best of our ability.

    The Law of God is very simple (Mark 12:30 NIV) “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” And (Mark 12:31 NIV) “The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

    One does have to work to obey these two commandments, so perhaps, I might say that one cannot work to gain salvation, but one might have to work to keep it.

    However, that is an argument for a different day.

    Though we disagree about some things, I do agree that it is always a pleasure to think about, learn and comment on God, and I also always understand better as we exchange our understanding.

    May God bless you more than me.

  13. creationwitness says:


    At times a delay in response cannot and maybe should not be avoided. I only hope all is well with you. No need to apologize to me.

    Our interpretations are indeed quite different. You quote “from all his work” whereas I am quoting “from all his work which he has made”. The word “made” being key for me and being physical creation. Other verses confirm this for me like Hebrews 4:3.

    I truly believe that God’s created work has two aspects. The old and the new testaments being metaphorical for the physical and spiritual. In the old testament everything was very material based including the law which was engraved in stone. The man working on the sabbath being stoned to death. In John chapter 8 we find Jesus writing in the soil possibly writing “I will have mercy and not sacrifice”. Notice both having been written by the finger of God.

    You ask the question “is God done with the universe” and I think because you see the universe reproducing itself that you believe that God is still working on the heavens and the earth and all the host of them instead of them being finished as he says in verse 1. I see it as being a finished physical creation that continues on it’s own. It reproduces and dies just as we do. Does God sustain it? He says he does. Is he done with it? I say he is finished with the physical. I believe him. The foundations being laid he now moves on to the spiritual teaching in the new testament. Why else faith and no more physical manifestations?

    Now you mention “man’s sabbath” and rightly so. Jesus said it was made for man and that the Son of man is Lord of it implying himself or man. Either way it remains as Paul speaks of in Hebrews 4. Working on sabbath? Yes, but not out making money. We work by dedication to our Father and doing his work not our own.

    You say you will not be condemned. I certainly doubt that you would be.

    Matthew 5:19 KJV
    (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Why should I not strive to use more of the talent that I have been given glorify God? That is why he gave it to me no? Do I do it to be called great? Personally I do it because I believe it is right to do.
    John 15:8 KJV
    (8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    1 Corinthians 9:26-27 KJV
    (26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    (27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    I agree we can do no work to obtain salvation as we can only be justified by faith. But having this faith do we then lay down? Abraham showed his faith by his works:

    James 2:21-22 KJV
    (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    Our understanding here is very different. I believe I am saved by Jesus Christ unto good works. What else would I be prepared for?

    2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV
    (20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    (21) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

    Now you also say the Apostles changed the day of worship? I have never seen this scripture, but have read the Catholic church changed it to differentiate itself from the Jews and they believe they are justified to change law because they believe Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. Regardless, I follow what I find written. Why would God change the fundamentals? My answer is he didn’t. Man under influence did and it remains taught and learned by the majority.

    It is good you are fully persuaded. I am too, but note that I do not celebrate the sabbath. I observe the keeping of it. I dedicate myself on sabbath to God or at least I do my very best to do so. I do not do my own pleasure, but his. I was commanded to do so and I follow it in the faith that it is there for a reason. Not only for the Jews, but made for man. Have any of the other ten commandments been done away with? It is actually because of the strict conformity of the sabbath that we don’t feel it necessary. That conformity is man’s understanding of it and not what God intended as Jesus did show us by his supposed breaking of it. If man ceased to do everything on the sabbath, he would die.

    Matthew 22:40 KJV
    (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Reading this, I detect that there are other commandments hanging from these two. They are obvious foundation for the remaining because all lead back to one, the other or both. In all truth there is only one.

    I do agree with you on God’s seventh day being fulfilled now. I see no reason that it cannot be true. This is how I understand things and I know we don’t agree on everything. As far as I understand, we don’t have to. Have we already been saved or do we only have the opportunity to be saved?

    Philippians 2:10-12 KJV
    (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    (12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    There is always something more for me to learn.

    Bless you and I pray this finds you well.

  14. astudent says:


    I am getting old and I have seen many things. One thing that I have found is that we see what we look for. That sounds rather simple, but it is profound.

    I also have found that if you say someone is wrong, they immediately begin to think of how to defend their position and that keeps them from really considering if they are truly wrong. It is a condition of pride and we all suffer from it.

    I see God still working, both physically and spiritually. So, I am guilty of looking for the ways that He does.

    I believe that God makes everyone; forms us all in the womb. There are verses that support that in the Old Testament (Psa 119:73, Eccl 11:5, Isa 29:16, 43:6&7, 44:2, 44:24, Jer 1:5) and also in the New Testament (Rom 9:20, Mat 1:20). These are physical things and they are still being accomplished. I believe that God created me and formed me in the womb and I believe the same about you.

    It seems to me that I only have to show you, from Scripture that God is not yet finished creating the universe, and then you will see, or understand better.

    So, suppose that you are standing by the river of the water of life (Rev 22:1&2) and you look back in time. Suppose you ask yourself, “Was God’s work done before this river, these gates, and walls, and this great city built? Isn’t this river, these gates and walls, and this great city physical things?” Didn’t God destroy the universe, before He made these things? Was He finished with the universe before He destroyed it and remade everything?

    You say, “Now you also say the Apostles changed the day of worship? I have never seen this scripture.” Well, consider John 20:19, and 20:26 and you will see that the disciples not only met on the first day of the week, but also were blessed for doing so, as Jesus, Himself, attended the meetings. Also, consider Acts 20:7 and First Corinthians 16:1&2.

    Now, this is the third time that I have written an answer to your last comment. The first one I deleted, because it was way to long and even at that, it was not clear enough. The second one turned out to be just as long and still not clear enough. Now our Father has awoken me in the middle of the night and given me the way to answer you. I probably will not be as clear to you as our Father was to me, but still I must try to convey to you what He gave to me.

    First, I must agree with you. The Sabbath was a command from God (Exo 16:23&28), one of the Ten Commandments and it is a sin not to observe it, which is what you say. Therefore, you are correct when you say it is a lasting covenant for an Israelite. I could argue that I am not an Israelite, so it does not apply to me. However, for the sake of clarity I will say that it does apply to me.

    That means that I agree with you, that I sin by not observing the Sabbath as you do.

    Now, here is the basic difference in what we believe. I believe that my Savior allowed Himself to be sacrificed for all of my sins: not just some, but all of them. So, if I choose not to celebrate the Sabbath, that sin is covered.

    Jesus allowed Himself to be slandered, libeled, captured, spit upon, beaten with fists, flogged, stripped naked in full view of everyone, and nailed to a cross, then raised up with nothing on, so everyone could see Him die and He did all of this for me; that I might be released from the penalty of the law. How could I say or do anything that would add to or subtract anything from this? If I claimed I still must observe the Sabbath, then I would be adding something to His sacrifice.

    You see, your savior is not my Savior. Your savior’s sacrifice was just a little bit short, as you believe you must still observe the Sabbath. You do not believe that all of your sins are covered, so your savior is not the same Savior as mine, as my Savior died to pay the price for all of my sins.

    You would have me believe in your savior! Why would I?!!!!

    Don’t you understand that you are preaching a different Gospel? A gospel that claims we still must obey the law! That is not good news, but the true Gospel really is Good News, because if we believe, we are no longer under the Law; any part of the Law.

    If one compares the Sabbath commandment to all of the other commandments and considers the importance of the Sabbath, it is clear that it is the least important of the commandments.

    All of the Law hinges on the two most important commandments. The first is to love our Father with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength. The second of the greatest commands is to love our neighbor as our self (Mark 12:29-31).

    Not observing the Sabbath does not violate either of the most important commandments. My father is always with me and I with Him, 24 hours a day, every day, from now and forever, so it doesn’t matter if the day is the Sabbath. I have not hurt my Father in any way, by working or not working on the Sabbath, or any other day.

    Though all of my sins are covered by the Sacrifice of my Savior, it would not even be a sin against my neighbor if I did not observe the Sabbath. It is only wrong to not observe the Sabbath because God said to observe it. It hurts no one if we do not observe the Sabbath. Therefore, it is the least of the commandments.

    You savior has not saved you from the least of the commandments of the Law then how can he save you from the greatest of the commandments?

    The Gospel is so simple. It is that the sacrifice of the Son of God saves us from “all” of our sins. If you think otherwise then you do not believe. That is also simple, but the simple things are the hardest to understand, to grasp, and then to explain.

    Stop acting like a Galatian. The book of Galatians was written to you, so that you might understand that it is not right to observe special days (Gal 4:10). Read and consider all that God said (through Paul) about the Galatians and you will see yourself in Scripture.

    I ask your forgiveness for sounding so harsh, but I do not know a way to say this without sounding harsh. However, I must say it as I believe God would hold me responsible, as a poor watchman if I did not (Ezek 3:21). It is my responsibility to warn you and your responsibility to change. Please change for my sake as well as yours, because I do not want to lose you as a brother (Gal 3:10). Please, please, please.

    May our Father bless you even more than He blesses me, (if that were possible).

  15. creationwitness says:


    I believe every Christian is going to find what is comfortable for them to follow and very little will ever change a person’s mind with any amount of ease right or wrong. Having said that, that is not why I discuss such things and I believe you are the same. We discuss these subjects to ascertain our understanding in the hope of following God as he would like us to. For me, everything is in question until I have a sound answer.

    Even though God’s work may involve physical action, it is all for spiritual purpose. The sabbath was made for man not for God. If it was made for us and given to us to follow, don’t we deny God’s wishes if we do not?

    Your argument is that the sabbath day has changed to the first day of the week, but I will begin with what you call physical work and that is forming a child in the womb. I ask myself if God physically form or spiritually form? The answer for me is simple. God is spirit. His entire creation originates there and he doesn’t touch anything physical except by His Son. I do not deny that God does not work. I never have. I have only come to define work in different ways. Even rest is a type of work. Our heart still beats etc., I am sure God is not asking us to totally stop functioning when he says to stop working or rest. This again is where the pharisees erred. They had seemed to think almost any type of work was a no no. It’s no wonder very few people have ever followed sabbath.

    These are questions I have asked myself:

    1. Why was the sabbath made?
    2. Have any of the other ten commandments been done away with or changed?
    3. Is there scripture stating the sabbath has changed in any way?
    3. When Jesus talks about works on the sabbath, what type of work is he talking about?

    We differentiate physical and spiritual work but in truth you can’t. Both are required for the end result which hopefully is spiritual perfection. But working to sustain physical life and working to sustain spiritual life are very different although mutually beneficial. Sometimes both are necessary on the sabbath:

    Luke 13:15 KJV
    (15) The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

    I maintain that the sabbath is a one day per week dedication to God. Can it be changed to any other day? That is not for me to say, but I do know God sanctified the seventh day for it and that is what I follow. Can we do certain work on the sabbath? My answer is what Jesus taught us. Do we go out and use the day to make money or do things that we can do on the other six days? God is pretty clear on that. Will we go to hell if we don’t follow? Some people are foolish enough to believe there is no forgiveness.

    I do not disregard what God has said. To simplify things, I read these verses and ask myself a few questions:

    Genesis 1:31 KJV
    (31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Genesis 2:1-2 KJV
    (1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    Was anything completed on the sixth day? Did God end his work which he had made? Did he rest on the seventh day? Now I read verses as these and ask a few more:

    John 5:17 KJV
    (17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    Luke 14:5 KJV
    (5) And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

    What type of work was Jesus doing? Did he make a man whole on the sabbath with physical work?

    John 7:23 KJV
    (23) If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

    When I read everything that is written about this I can see we have never followed sabbath correctly and we continue to deny it until this very day.

    The verses you quote about the sabbath being changed to Sunday? I still do not read that there is any change. I only read they were together in worship on Sunday. That doesn’t change the sabbath commandment and no apostle said so. It only goes to show we can worship more than one day per week. Thank God as I would otherwise find life unbearable.

    The remaining of what you write I have to say I disagree with most of it and to explain my point I ask a few simple questions. Are you going to go out and knowingly break any of the other commandments? Then why the sabbath?

    The sabbath was made for the Israelites? Sorry that is a twist.

    Psalms 37:31 KJV
    (31) The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
    Psalms 40:8 KJV
    (8) I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
    Psalms 119:34 KJV
    (34) Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
    Psalms 119:70 KJV
    (70) Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
    Proverbs 3:1 KJV
    (1) My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
    Isaiah 51:7 KJV
    (7) Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

    And to:

    Romans 7:14-25 KJV
    (14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    These last verses are interesting because heaven and earth have not passed and that our righteousness must exceed what we have already seen.

    Matthew 5:18-20 KJV
    (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    It is not me that preaches another gospel.

    Romans 8:1-5 KJV
    (1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    Me? I would repent, but that is me. I am sorry if you still don’t see it. You can fault me.

    Regarding the new heaven and earth one will find that the sabbath is still followed. Somewhere in Zechariah I believe and I always remember “with a rod of iron” too.

    The verse you quote in Galatians proves a point as it points to the written law that the pharisees followed. I think it is clear that God’s law is not material, but a shadow of things to come.

    Brother. I most sincerely pray you see the light. Always follow in faith.

  16. creationwitness says:


    To add a few more thoughts to add:

    If the carnal mind is enmity against God, then it obviously will do everything against God. As Paul says it is not subject to the law nor can be.

    Romans 8:1-14 KJV
    (1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Is sabbath not for building a relationship with God? A good foundation?

    Luke 6:47-49 KJV
    (47) Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
    (48) He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
    (49) But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

    You see Brother. We do understand things differently. I ask the question you ask, but turn it around. If I can’t follow the least of God’s commandments, how is it I follow His greatest?

    I love God with everything I have and if ever in question…. I follow what he clearly says.

    I can continue to write so much more, but it would be of no use if you can’t already see it. It is all in front of you. Even trying, I cannot see it from your point of view. I think you see me as a legalist, but I am not. I follow spiritual law walking with great care. The fear of God if you like.

    Sorry if this offends you, but it is also my duty as a watchman to tell you. I believe you are in error and I wouldn’t say that if I didn’t care for you.

    God’s will be done. Bless you.

  17. creationwitness says:


    In some sense I must thank you because our different points of view compel me to explain something I think is important to anyone following Christ. The basic belief I have is that if we have faith in Christ, we will follow his laws.

    After thinking over many things that you have said, I feel you may be of the opinion that I am trying to say we are saved by following the law and that if we don’t, we are condemned. That is not what I am saying at all. What I am trying to get across is that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but con move on from there. Once we have been set free of the condemnation of sin, we can break free of it. We are no longer a slave to it’s calling. I think there are many parables that are all fitting to show that we don’t stop our learning at being set free of the penalty. Christ has paid the penalty for us and now it is our duty to move forward as we are now free to do so.

    The ten virgins come to mind. All of them were chosen, but only five had prepared. The other five? I think you know the story. The next one that comes to mind is the unprofitable servants in Luke 7:17 only doing what is required and we can add the parable of the talents again. In all of these parables some people are given certain extra things to build upon or prepare. The ten lepers and the two sons (one obedient) also come to mind now.

    All of Romans and Hebrews backs this up. Once we are saved we are free to move forward.

    A few key verses:

    Romans 6:1 KJV
    (1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Hebrews 10:26 KJV
    (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    I believe it is God’s will that we follow his guidelines for life and to do otherwise is sin. We are asked to follow sabbath as one of the least of all commandments and if we choose not to or find reason not to, we are not doing his will. We sin and actually we not only sin against Father, we sin against ourself.

    Will we condemn ourself to death if we do not follow? I think of course not, but I do believe there will be some type of punishment. Luke 12:47 comes to mind. In truth I believe we would have to retake the test.

    You may have found what you believe is good enough reason to worship on Sunday and you gave me three verses to show that sabbath has been changed to the first day of the week, but I would ask you to search Acts for “sabbath” and see how many returns you receive and what they all say. I absolutely see not one statement anywhere that says the sabbath has been done away with or changed.

    Sorry. It was not Zechariah that has the verses I was thinking of before. It is Isaiah:

    Isaiah 66:22-23 KJV
    (22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    (23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


    James 2:17 KJV
    (17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    In conclusion:

    Hebrews 6:1 KJV (all of 6 is profitable)
    (1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    Please excuse me for adding on so much to my original response. I find it quite difficult to summarize every thought in a short space.


  18. astudent says:


    I will only answer your idea that we should celebrate (look up the definition of celebrate) the Sabbath this time and one more time. Because God says, “(Titus 3:9 NIV) But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.” I know why they are unprofitable and useless and therefore I must stop.

    You say, “The basic belief I have is that if we have faith in Christ, we will follow his laws.” However, the Sabbath was a part of the Law of Moses, not the Law of Christ. The Law of Moses can only condemn. It can never save, because it is based on rules and regulations. Jesus came to save us from the Law of Moses, which condemned and did not save. Though the Law of Moses is good, I cannot celebrate a system of laws that condemn (again check the definition of the word celebrate).

    Please do not listen to closely to me. However, you would be wise to listen closely to the Apostle Paul. He wrote Galatians to those who would fall back into the Law of Moses. That is anyone that tries to obey the law is condemned.

    You say, “What I am trying to get across is that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but can move on from there”, but you are not moving on, you are moving back: the wrong direction.

    You say, “Once we have been set free of the condemnation of sin, we can break free of it.” Well you are set free of the condemnation of sin by your faith in Jesus, but if you return to the Law of Moses you will be condemned again. (Rom 4:14 &15 NIV) “For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.”

    Christ did not give us power over sin. We cannot break free of sin and therefore no longer sin. He accepted our just punishment for sin, therefore if we just believe, we will be saved. We cannot break free of sin. Test this: try to go sin free and see how far you get.

    You say,” I would ask you to search Acts for “Sabbath” and see how many returns you receive and what they all say”. So I did and they say that Paul who believed in Jesus went to those who did not believe in Jesus to try to persuade them. Those who did not believe in Jesus gathered together on the Sabbath and so that is when he went. By going to the Jewish meetings and trying to convince those that were trying to following the Law, Paul was working on the Sabbath! At the same time he was obeying Jesus (Mat 12:12, Mark 3:4, and Luke 6:9). Paul was attempting to save their lives, as Jesus asked in Mark 3:4 “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”

    “So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” (Gal 3:24 & 25 NIV) I will live by faith and therefore will not celebrate the Law of Moses. That is a step backward into the law that condemns, not a step forward. You, however, are still trying to obey the Law.

    There was a man that heard about an island of paradise. He went to the sea shore and could even see the island. So, he stripped and began to swim toward the island, but it was too far for his strength and he began to drown. God saw this and sent a bodyguard to rescue him. When they reached the shore, where the man started from, the bodyguard explained to the man that God was sending a boat, which he would captain, to transport all those who wanted to go to the island of paradise. All the man had to do was to believe him and wait for the boat, and the man said that he believed, but the man did not believe, and so when the bodyguard left to rescue another swimmer, he jumped back into the sea and set off on his own again. God saw this, but He did not send a second bodyguard; for there is no second bodyguard.

    Those who do not go to the island of paradise in the Ark that God will send, and has sent, will not reach it. It is too far to reach by man’s own effort.

    (Acts 15:5-11 NIV) Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    You would have me, a Gentile, and all of those who listen to you, return to the law and attempt to obey the law that only brings death. Why would you test God by trying to put a yoke on my neck, that none of the Jews, or the Apostles, or their fathers, were able to bear?

    Now, I said that I would answer you one more time. Do not answer this comment, because in my next comment, if God lets me, I am going to explain to you that you have never celebrated or observed, do not celebrate, or observe, and cannot celebrate or observe the Sabbath.

    This series of comments have, again, helped me understand more about God’s Word and again I thank you for driving me farther into the Word.

    May God bless you more than He blesses me.

  19. creationwitness says:


    Are you telling me not to comment any more on this? I am confused by your statement, but I leave you with these which are not my comments but God’s:

    Romans 3:31 KJV
    (31)  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Psalms 119:126 KJV
    (126)  It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

  20. astudent says:


    I said,”Now, I said that I would answer you one more time. Do not answer this comment, because in my next comment, if God lets me, I am going to explain to you that you have never celebrated or observed, do not celebrate, or observe, and cannot celebrate or observe the Sabbath.”

    However, you did try to answer my comment: even before you heard it! I sometimes wonder if you listen to me at all!

    If you are willing to listen, I will explain the Sabbath, as I understand it. Please forgive me, but I do claim to understand it.

    The Sabbath and everything about it was told in the sixteenth chapter of Exodus. When one considers everything that is written, it becomes clear that the underlying theme of chapter 16 is manna, not the Sabbath. The Sabbath is only what the Israelites were to do, with the manna, on the seventh day.

    The chapter explains where manna was to come from (16:4), that they were to gather it (verse 4), how much they were to gather (verse 4, 5&16), what it looked like (verse 14& 31), even what it tasted like (verse 31), and also why God gave the Sabbath (verse 4).

    As you know, they were told to gather enough for one day, for five days, and then enough for two days, on the sixth day.

    They were told to prepare the double portion on the sixth day and save it for the next day (verse 23). They were told to eat the manna that was left from the sixth day, on the seventh day (verse 25).

    God supplied manna until they reached the border of Canaan (verse 35).

    Now, it should go without saying, that if God no longer supplied manna, then one could no longer obey the commands pertaining to it!

    You say that you obey the command of the Sabbath and I have to ask ‘Where did you get the manna that you are commanded to eat on the Sabbath? (verse 25)

    The Sabbath is only a name for the seventh day of the ritual. If one does not obey the first six days, they cannot obey the last day and then say they have obeyed the law of the Sabbath! If there is no manna to gather, then there is no manna to eat any day, from the first day to the last day.

    God gave the Israelites bread from heaven to test them (verse 4). I do not want to be tested by God. That is what Job wanted; that is until he got it! What would I tell God when He asks me, ‘From where did you gather the manna that I commanded you to eat on the seventh day?’ I have fear, because I believe that He certainly would ask.

    Without manna, one cannot obey the Sabbath that God gave to the Israelites. Your sabbath is a man made sabbath and cannot be ‘The Sabbath’. It is only a do nothing day.

    Again I say, “You have never celebrated or observed, do not celebrate, or observe, and cannot celebrate or observe the Sabbath.”

    If you understood the seven days of creation then you might understand the Sabbath. The seven days of creation are days of God’s time, not our 24 hour days. The true manna, the bread of life, is Jesus. This is the sixth day and we are supposed to gather a double portion, so that we will have enough for the seventh day.

    When you say, “Christ has paid the penalty for us and now it is our duty to move forward as we are now free to do so.” You have stopped gathering manna. You are trying to justify yourself by observing the law. In effect, you are saying that the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough to cover your sin; you must still attempt to obey the Law of Moses.

    If there is a penalty for trying to obey the Law and no one can obey the law (Rom 11:32 NIV) then why would anyone return to the Law and place themselves in danger of the penalty all over again?

    If you really want to understand our Father, then study “Mercy” not the Law. Our salvation depends on mercy not on our own efforts and to attempt to obey the Law is to attempt to rely on our own efforts. (Rom 9:15&16 NIV) “For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”

    As a Christian, I have only two rules to follow: Love my God with all my heart, soul, and strength and love others as much as I love myself. I cannot justify myself in any way and especially not by doing nothing, one day a week. If I believed that, it would belittle the sacrifice of my Lord and Savior. Just as Paul the Apostle said, “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    Again, when you say, “Christ has paid the penalty for us and now it is our duty to move forward as we are now free to do so.” Consider these verses and ask yourself ‘Am I moving forward or backward?’ Am I doing what my Father wants me to do, or am I trying to do what our Father wanted Israel to do, while they were in the desert?

    (Gal 2:16-21 NIV) know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

    (Rom 9:30-32 NIV) What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

    You are stumbling over the stumbling stone as you attempt to justify yourself by obeying the law.

    “Now, I am done with your claim that you and I must celebrate the Sabbath. I believe that you and I have said almost all that we could about the Sabbath.

    (Titus 3:9&10 NIV) “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.”

    Creationwitness, I believe in my heart that you are not a divisive person: that you are trying to understand the Word of God. So, please stop claiming that we must follow the Law of Moses, when it is not even possible to do so. God tells us, “If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    As for me, I am going to try not to sin, and when I fail, because I surly will, I am going to rely on the faith that I have in the goodness, grace, and mercy of our Father to save me and that through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ: not by the Law of Moses, or “any” work of my own.

    May God bless you even more than He blesses me: and I do mean that.

  21. creationwitness says:


    I said I was confused so please don’t think I am not listening. Clarification is nice.

    I never said one must follow the ten commandments. You are putting words in my mouth. I follow God’s law in the spirit of the law. That would be the true law. Not the written in stone, but in the heart. You see, I cannot break the law because I faithfully follow it knowing it is correct. I am not stopping at Christ’s sacrifice for the world because if I did, then I would wrongly acknowledge there is no more for me to learn. I would already be saved and have nothing to worry about. I also will not turn back to sin. Christ died once for my past sins. Do I want to ask him to do it again for me? I wouldn’t even think of it. Why would I want to break his law? I can only do that if I remain in the flesh and follow the flesh. That would be impossible for me at this point, but I must add that if I do err and acknowledge my sin with repentance, then I know I will be forgiven. Do I therefor go and break the law? As Paul said.

    About the manna being the reason for God instituting the sabbath; in my mind that is clearly not the case because God tells us why he gave the seventh day to us and it is not only for rest (I should not need quote any or all of the verses given). The first sabbath actually occurred in Genesis 2 to obviously fulfill the righteousness of example and not that God needed the rest. It is also clear that men like Abraham obeyed God’s commandments Gen 26:5 before they were ever given to Moses. I also obey God’s law. If I didn’t I would be lawless. I don’t obey because it is written in stone and the penalty is death. I obey because I know it is correct to do and will bring life. Why would I look for any excuse not to? Is it me that is returning to the letter of the law? The law is written for the lawless. The children that need to learn it. Not for the ones that obey and do it. Rom 2:13, James 1:25 and 4:11.

    A question for you: How much of God’s law can you break without consequence?

    Twisting any of God’s word to something that conforms to man’s idea is simply wrong. Sunday of all things? You give me three verses to show that the apostles changed the seventh day to the first day and then see fault in me showing you how many times they preached on the seventh?

    A man that is going to learn the truth of God, must first forget what he has been falsely taught by man. Otherwise his bias will keep him exactly where he is.

    Sorry brother. I know that doesn’t sit well with you, but that is what I have been taught. God is spirit. His law is spirit. His church is spirit. Nothing else is true. Only a shadow of it.

    God bless you brother.

  22. creationwitness says:

    I need to correct an earlier statement. I said “I never said that” in regards to the ten commandments, when in fact I may have said and thought that to be correct in the past. My first understanding of the ten commandments was taught to me by other men and is in fact one of the methods used to dissuade men from God. Without correct understanding one may either continue in sin, believing that because of their faith in Jesus Christ they can do no wrong or may turn away from God because they are attempting to follow God in the flesh.

    God forgive.

  23. creationwitness says:


    I started writing a long list of reasons why a person should be keeping the sabbath holy instead of Sunday, but came to the quick conclusion that our different points of view will not change with any prompting from the other supporting your point on iron sharpening.

    You made a few accusations against me (forgiven) that show what I mean.. The exact same accusations can be just as easily turned around and for one example you said that if I follow the law, I put myself back under the law. I can say by breaking the law one puts themself back under the law because they never learned from the schoolmaster. Anyway I have studied both sides of the issue and my conclusion is that there is more than sufficient secular evidence that Sunday was instituted by unconverted men such as Constantine and later by individuals in the church long after the new testament was written. We would otherwise see more evidence than what you gave me of the change. Another thing I found is the lack of any accusation that Jesus Christ or any of the apostles ever broke the sabbath or any of the holy days for that matter. Jesus Christ of course was falsely accused as it is written he kept his father’s law John 15:10. If one of them had, it would no doubt have been noted among their other supposed transgressions. Paul only negated the law of circumcision which you will not if you go back and study was given to “Abraham and his seed” and not to every born man child. This is a noteworthy study in itself.

    I submit therefor that we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I will also leave a link of a website that I found with more than sufficient evidence of good reason to keep the sabbath holy. One point of interest that I found on this page that I hadn’t otherwise known was God’s statement here:

    Exodus 20:11 KJV
    (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    This not only supports God’s example of weekly rest found in Genesis, but also supports the institution of the seventh day as sabbath. That kind of destroys the idea that sabbath was only given to the Israelites and affirms that it was made for man.

    Thank you brother. This study not only been interesting but also very informative. It leaves me today a much more faithful man.

    Cheers and God Bless

    I don’t support all things stated on this site or this page, but it is supported with scriptural study. It is only given for anyone wishing to further study the subject as it would be far too extensive to list here.

  24. astudent says:


    I have a question.

    Perhaps I am wrong, but I get the idea that you do not meet with Christian brothers on the first day of the week (Sunday). If this is so, do you celebrate Communion?

  25. creationwitness says:


    It is not ritual habit except for sabbath. All other days of the week are open to meeting as they arise. I do not celebrate communion in the mainstream church ritual as it is a yearly memorial, but having said that I remember Christ and am grateful for the sustenance provided when I eat, drink, bathe, etc., throughout the day.

    Now may I ask a question? Do you celebrate man’s feasts and traditions given by the church or do you celebrate God’s as outlined in scripture?

    I truly hope this helps you in some way. Blessings brother.

  26. astudent says:


    To answer your question I would say yes and no. I am not a Catholic, so I do not celebrate Catholic designated holidays. The denomination that I attend celebrates Christmas and Easter, but even those are not required. We have special services for those times, but no one is required to attend. If you want to it is fine, and if you do not want to, that is also fine, although some might judge others, if they did not attend. The sin would be in the minds of those that judge and not in the minds of those who did, or did not attend.

    Doesn’t the whole world celebrate Christmas? To those who are Christians it is a celebration of the birth of Christ and to those who are not Christian it is a holiday to give and receive gifts and an excuse to have a party. Christmas is a tradition of the Church. No one really knows the exact date of the birth of Christ, so somewhere along the line of time, some branch of the Christian Church chose December 25 as the day to celebrate the birth of Christ and the whole world recognizes that day: if not the original reason for the day.

    The answer that you seek is, I do not celebrate the special days of the Law of Moses. I am not a Jew. I am a gentile and the Law of Moses was not given to gentiles.

    Having said that I believe everyone is required to obey the two Royal Laws that all of the Law is based on and that is to love the LORD with all their heart, soul, mind and strength, and the second is to love others as they love themselves. Even gentiles are required to obey those two Laws, and to do so every day: not just a special day.

    My denomination celebrates Communion every Sunday. It is a shock to me that a denomination only celebrates it once a year! What denomination is that? If you do not mind me asking, were you baptized in that Church, or were you baptized in another Church and then changed your membership to that Church?

  27. creationwitness says:


    The sabbath being made holy, you do not follow, but Sunday being the designated day of worship by the Catholic church you do? Christmas? Have you ever missed a Christmas? Truly if a person wanted to celebrate a more likely day of our Lord’s birth it would be the Day of Atonement. That would suit the time given and the memorial of the day.

    You and I differ brother by tradition. I follow God’s tradition as given to Israel because I have been adopted into his house the Israel of God. You follow the two great commandments, but do not keep sabbath replacing it with Sunday. I follow the two great commandments and all the law that hangs from them.

    One has to sincerely ask oneself if they believe Jesus Christ and his apostles broke any of God’s law. We are asked to follow Christ. We can only do this by becoming like him. Is this by breaking law?

    When the law is in the heart, does not the law become a part of us and therefor not the law anymore because we do it? If we break the law, we become lawbreakers and therefor put ourselves under the law and by all right. The law indeed cannot save us, but do we break it because we cannot be saved by it?

    The law of Moses is the law of God. The children of Israel did not wish to hear God directly out of fear.

    Communion is with Christ daily. Not a ritual performed once a week.

    In answer to your last question, I have not been baptised into any of man’s churches, but in God’s. The baptism is in the heart by the Holy Ghost. Man’s church will remain divided until they realize the truth and finally begin following God. I cannot change my membership into another because there is no other.

    God bless you brother.

  28. astudent says:


    You are breaking my heart: you may have already broken it.

    We do not worship the same God!

    You have created a god in your own mind! A god that tells you that you do not sin. A god that tells you it is not necessary to be baptized into the Christ! A god that tells you it is only necessary to do nothing, one day a week, and call it The Sabbath and then the rest of the Law is not necessary!

    The God that I worship tells me (1 John 1:8 NIV) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

    The God that I worship tells me (John 3:5 NIV) “Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

    The God that I worship tells me (Deu 6:25 NIV) “And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

    The God that I worship tells me (Gal 3:10&11 NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

    The God that I worship tells me (Gal 3:13 NIV) “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.””

    You have not accepted these quotes from the God of the universe, because they differ from your imaginary god.

    I thought that you were my brother in Christ, but you are only my brother in Adam.

    By refusing to acknowledge your sin, you are claiming that you do not need a Savior, because one without sin would indeed need no Savior.

    You say that you are going beyond Jesus, to learn even more, but you have not reached Jesus, or the understanding of Jesus, so you cannot forage ahead of what you have not reached.

    If you examine yourself closely I am sure that you will see that you sin. That is, if you do so in truth. When you see that you do indeed sin you will understand that you need a Savior, because it is sin that separates us from God. (Isa 59:2 NIV) “But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear”

    If you come to your senses and ask God for a Savior you will allow yourself to be baptized. (Mat 3:15 NIV) “Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.” It is necessary to fulfill all righteousness!”

    Through Peter, God says, (Acts 2:38&39 NIV) “Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

    I have much more that I could say, but you do not have the Spirit that is given when one is baptized and therefore you cannot understand.

    I do not say any of these things to hurt you. If you will consider what I have said you will judge yourself and find yourself guilty and in need of the Savior.

    If not then, (1 John 1:8 – 10 NIV) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

    If you will not do this, then you will break my heart, but more importantly you will break God’s heart.

  29. creationwitness says:


    You have ineffectively twisted all of my words and moreso my inner heart. You need to go back and read what I said.

    I never said I was without sin. Not even once nor implied it. I never said baptism was not necessary but that I have not been baptised into man’s church, only Christ and his church.

    Brother. Broken heart? Mine is sick from reading your words. Absolute lies. I can’t even finish reading, but I will try again later. I don’t know how you have twisted what you have read of my words, but very twisted they are. I agree with all that you have said other than what you say that I have said. My agreement is with God’s Word.

    When I do not keep sabbath, I disobey God. Plain and simple and I am not only communing with God once a week. I do it everyday in my heart, with my spirit.

    Take some time and go back and read. Then please correct your error. Thank you.

  30. astudent says:


    I did go back and read what you said. I do not believe you understand what you said!

    You said, “You see, I cannot break the law because I faithfully follow it knowing it is correct”. If you claim that you do not break the law, then you claim to be without sin. All sin is lawlessness.

    You also say, in the same paragraph, “I also will not turn back to sin”. Then, in your last comment, you said, “I never said I was without sin. Not even once nor implied it”! Yes you did.

    In the same paragraph, you said, in part, “I am not stopping at Christ’s sacrifice for the world”. Jesus did not die for the world, He died for His people, but everyone in this world are not His people (Mat 1:21).

    If one has not been baptized into Christ, then how can they claim Him as Savior? If you ask me, to refuse baptism is to deny Christ, and if one denies Christ, then He will deny them.

    Jesus received the Holy Spirit after He was baptized by John, and He said it was proper to fulfill all righteousness. If it was proper for the Son of God, then how much more proper could it be for His people?

    If even Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit, until He was baptized, then how could we have the Spirit, if we have not been baptized, and how could the Holy Spirit baptize one, in the heart, if He was not in their heart?

    You do not understand that the law was given to show everyone that they could not obey it: that we need mercy because we cannot live up to God’s standard.

    Consider (1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV) “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”

    And (Rom 3:19-20 NIV) “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

    It would indeed be a good thing to obey the law, because it is God’s standard. However, no one can follow the law. In order to follow the law one must obey all of the law (Gal 3:10 NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.””

    If one is not counted with the people that Jesus came to save, they must rely on the law to save them and they must do everything written in the book of Leviticus. Even though you claim that you do not break the law, if you do not do everything written in Leviticus, you do break the law, and if you have not been baptized into Jesus, you have no Savior.

  31. creationwitness says:


    I am extremely disappointed that you have taken what I have written so out of context, but actually not surprised. Take this example:

    1 John 3:3-6 KJV
    (3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    (4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    (5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    (6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    When I asked you to go back and read, I actually should have just ask you to think about all of the conversations that we have had in the past and then ask yourself if you believe what you are accuse me of. If you want to take everything literal, then take 1 John literal too. There are many more examples I am sure you are aware of, but I will none then less defend myself against your outrageous accusation; When I say I don’t sin, it means I don’t intentionally do it knowing I can ask forgiveness. If I intentionally sin, knowing it wrong, I ask for the strength to overcome. Which always arrives.

    Regarding baptism: I never said I was not baptised. I said I have not been baptised into man’s church, but into Jesus Christ. If that is difficult to understand, let me explain; Most churches baptise new members into “their church” and “their interpretation” of scripture. If you go against what “they” say, a member is promptly expelled. When you were baptised, were you baptised into a certain church like the Protestant or into Christ? Again you have taken what I have said way out of context.

    The material law written in stone cannot be followed because material mind is enmity against God. Spiritual law can be because it is love for God written in the heart.

    Brother. I know you don’t want to follow sabbath. Nobody is pushing you to do so. Why keep pointing the finger at me? Am I the bad guy because I believe that obeying God is the correct thing to do?

    I pray you understand

  32. creationwitness says:


    I would like to try and explain again my understanding and I do this because I believe it is important that we try our best not to sin. We can’t do that, if we blatantly break the law.

    We can’t be justified by the law, because it is by the law that we have become guilty. Romans 3:19-20,,

    Carnal man has made God’s law a bad thing. God’s law is reality is good living advice.

    Paul was teaching that the Jews were imposing the law as a means to salvation, but it is only by the law that we know sin. The law therefor cannot save us. It only makes us become aware of our wrong. It is impossible to be justified by the law because it is by the law that we have become guilty. When the law is imposed on us, we rebel because we are carnal. Is there then no law?

    When we learn to love, we learn the law in spirit. We learn that it is righteousness and we therefor are no longer “under the law”. Do we break the law? If we do, we put ourselves back under the law. The law is for lawbreakers. Do we do the law? Yes, “if you love me, keep my commandments”. The law is spiritual not carnal. The carnal is for teaching and practice that we may grow and become spiritual. Is there then no law? The law is love. Love is the law. God is love. Indeed there is law. The law is doing what is right by faith in God and that doesn’t mean that righteousness came by law, but only the awareness of it. There is law. The law is love.

    Deu_4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
    Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
    Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
    Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
    Hab_1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
    Rom_2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
    Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Rom_9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    Rom_10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    Php_3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    2Pe_2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

    Again, I pray you understand. I am better for this study with you.

    God Bless.

  33. astudent says:


    You say, “Brother. I know you don’t want to follow sabbath. Nobody is pushing you to do so. Why keep pointing the finger at me? Am I the bad guy because I believe that obeying God is the correct thing to do?”

    Well, you do not really listen to me. I said that it is not possible to follow the Sabbath. You are correct if you mean that I do not want to follow your sabbath, as it is only a seventh day: not The Sabbath.

    You say, “Nobody is pushing you to do so”, but you are pushing me! How can you say, with a straight face, nobody is pushing me? Well, maybe you are laughing, I do not really know.

    You came here, I did not go to you, and you came time after time, always with the same message. That is I should do as you do and when I disagree with you, you ignore the Scripture that I quote to support my understanding.

    Your ideas do not agree with the Word of God and when they do not, you ignore the verses that show you wrong.

    As an example you believe that God has entered His rest and when I quote (John 5:17 NIV) “Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working”, which shows He has yet to enter His rest, you just quote Genesis 2:2&3 and ignore John 5:17! Ask yourself ‘Is every verse in the Bible true?’ If your answer is yes, then how can you ignore John 5:17? The truth is that you do not understand how both verses are true and so you just ignore the verses that you cannot explain.

    Here is another verse that you ignore, because it does not fit your god. (Gal 3:10 NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.””. If you rely on observing the law then you must do everything written in Leviticus! You do not do everything written in Leviticus, yet you want me to agree with you that we must observe your sabbath. You came to teach, not to learn.

    Here is another verse that you ignore and it is the most important verse for you not to ignore. (John 3:5 NIV) “Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.” You ignore the part about water, because you refuse to be baptized and this verse says that you must be.

    (Mark 11:30 NIV) “John’s baptism–was it from heaven, or from men? Tell me!”

    Well, tell me. If you believe it came from God, then do it, and if you believe it did not, then do you believe God? All of what God has said, or only what you want to believe?

    You did not come to me to learn, but to teach. You have painted yourself into a corner. Your paint is your pride and you would have to walk all over your pride to go to a Church on Sunday, the first day of the week, and ask to be baptized.

    You say that the Spirit has baptized you, but even Jesus did not have the Spirit before He was baptized. (Mat 3:15&16 NIV) “Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness. Then John consented. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.” Does God love you more than Jesus that He would give you His Spirit, when you have not done what must be done to fulfill all righteousness?

    I see your problem. It would be a very humbling experience for you to ask to be baptized, but that is what God requires; that you humble yourself (Psa 149:4 NIV) “For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.”

    Creationwitness, I am talking to a dead man. No wonder you do not understand me! You are dead in your sins, but you could have life. If you do not come to your senses, you will surely suffer the second death.

  34. creationwitness says:


    Look back to your accusations and I will answer them how I read them and then you tell me who is guilty of them ok?

    I cannot push you to do anything. You have been given free choice. If you do not wish to study sabbath tell me to keep quiet or to please leave. That is also up to you. You have been part of the discussion have you not? Are you not expounding your point to me? Isn’t that the reason why we are here? Why is the finger always point at me? If I do wrong, let’s talk about it and let God be the judge. Show me I am incorrect and I will be on my knees in repentance, but I am not going to blindly follow man. I need some reasoning.

    I call it sabbath because God calls it sabbath. Yes, it is the seventh day, but God refers to it time and again as his sabbath. He also gave it to man. I follow God. Yes, it is also my sabbath. Thank you Lord God.

    Now you say my idea does not agree with God because you quote one verse being John 3:17? I have already given you my understanding of that verse but let’s look again at Genesis 2: 2-3,

    Genesis 2:2-3 KJV
    (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    (3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    How many times does it say God ended his work? How many times that he rested? How many times that he rested from his work? Keep counting:

    Exodus 20:11 KJV
    (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Exodus 31:17 KJV
    (17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

    Hebrews 4:4 KJV
    (4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    Now you know my understanding of how John and the remaining verses fit together as I have told you more than once. You say I ignore John 3:17, but I haven’t. I understand that it is a different work. How do you understand them to fit together? My words do not fit with the Word of God? Strong accusation brother.

    Let’s look at your next accusation. Galations 3:10.

    Galatians 3:10 KJV
    (10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    It clearly says “of the works”. I am not “of the works”. I follow in faith. I am therefor not under the law because I do my best not break the law nor deem it my salvation. I do not rely on it as you accuse. How about you brother? Are you a law breaker? Can you commit adultery or murder knowing it is wrong? Why break the sabbath? Is it excluded somehow? You say the apostles changed the day and only quoted 3 verses to back it up. When I asked you to search how many times they taught on the sabbath, what did you say? Even Paul our beloved has his opinion of the law. Was he a sabbath breaker?

    Acts 24:14 KJV
    (14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

    Why do you continue to accuse me of refusing to be baptised? I have told you again and again that I have been baptised into Jesus Christ. Not a church of man. Is that difficult to understand? Is it required for me to say that I was immersed in water? Yes, by water. I never asked you if you were immersed. The real question is if you become a lawbreaker does that make baptism, unbaptism?

    Pride? Haven’t I said that I am in church daily when possible? Yes, that includes Sunday. Why should I exclude it? Now how about yourself? Do you obey God’s word or man’s?

    You go on to quote about not having the Spirit until you are baptised, but you exclude:

    Acts 10:44-48 KJV
    (44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    And what about Cornelius and family? And even Paul himself? One needs to be baptised before receiving the Holy Ghost? Really? This is your teaching?

    Now you accuse me of being dead? It is wise to be careful with your words. As you judge.

    2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV
    (5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    I pray for you brother. I pray you have better words in the future to speak with your brothers.

  35. astudent says:


    (Titus 3:9-11 NIV) “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

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