THE PUZZLE

I believe that God has given me an illustration to explain the importance of searching out His Word, which is the Bible.

I am posting this for those who do not follow all of the comments. (I really don’t blame you if you do not)

Our Father has given us a great gift in the Bible, and as one studies it, one of the things that stands out is that we must search out understanding. (Prov 25:2 NIV) “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.”

You see, God hides understanding and wisdom from everyone. One must search it out to acquire it. That is not too hard to understand if you look at it through the eyes of our Father. He has given us everything that we have. Even the lost has been given all that they have, though they do not grant God the least respect or gratitude. If one doesn’t care to search out wisdom and understanding, then he or she, in my opinion, just doesn’t care very much about God.

I believe that God wants children. Not just any children, but children that want to be His children. Eternal life is one of the rewards of becoming a child of God, but that is a reward, not the goal of becoming a child of God. The goal is to love God and to reach that goal requires understanding God. God is only revealed completely in His Word: the Bible.

Everyone wants to live forever. I believe that it is wrong to turn to God if the only reason is to acquire eternal life. It is true that eternal life is one of the reasons that humans turn to God, because His Word says “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom” (Psa 111:10 NIV) and we all fear death. Even the Muslim that states he loves death shows that he does not, because he wants to live forever in a paradise of his own desires, but the fate of anyone else is of no concern to him. That is not the kind of children God wants. The person that has no regard for others would have no regard for God, when they did not get what they want.

Well, enough of the lead in, here is the illustration.

The Bible, which is the Word of God, is like a jigsaw puzzle. This puzzle is offered to everyone, but those who do not care or appreciate the God of the universe will not even take the gift. Some will take the gift, but will not even try to assemble it!

The picture that is produced when the puzzle is assembled is shown plainly on the box that the puzzle comes in. It is the same puzzle, with the same picture, that is offered to all mankind: each individual. It should be obvious that one does not assemble a jigsaw puzzle in order to discover what the picture looks like, because the picture is on the box. A jigsaw puzzle is assembled to see how the pieces fit together, that is the challenge; not to just see the picture. The picture can sometimes be used as a clue and other times as proof of proper assembly.

God’s jigsaw puzzle is the Bible and the pieces are the verses. The proper thing to do is to take the Puzzle to a quiet place, dump it out and start to assemble the pieces (verses) so that you can understand how they fit together. God even numbered the pieces of the Puzzle and we call the pieces verses.

This blog is an attempt, by me, to show you how I have put the pieces of my Puzzle together. It is only an attempt to help you solve your Puzzle. No one can put your Puzzle together but you.

If I could assemble your Puzzle for you, I would be responsible to do so, but then you would place your trust in me and not the Lord. So God will not allow it, and rightly so, as I am only a man, full of sin, defiled, and not worthy to reveal God to anyone.

So you might say that it is not important to put the pieces together, because you already know the picture. The picture on the box shows that there is a God and that God loves man and saves those who turn to Him. Well, even the lost can see that.

As I assembled my Puzzle I found that oil represents understanding and understanding is worth all that I have.

Then there is the parable, the part of the picture that indicates oil is important. That is Matthew 25:1-12.

Do not be found to be without oil. Get as much as you can.

Consider the part of my Puzzle that God has shown me.

(Prov 4:1-7 NIV) “Listen, my sons, to a father’s instruction; pay attention and gain understanding. I give you sound learning, so do not forsake my teaching. When I was a boy in my father’s house, still tender, and an only child of my mother, he taught me and said, “Lay hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands and you will live. Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or swerve from them. Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.” Do not stop at verse seven, but read the rest of the chapter as it supports the first part, “Though it cost all you have, get understanding”.

So, do not look for wisdom in me, or your friends, or your favorite preacher, or any Commentary, or anything but the Word of God. That is your Puzzle and the greatest gift God gives to the living. Appreciate it, study it, live it as best as you can, even if it cost all that you have.

Aw, but what do you own but yourself? Give everything back to God, because you really do not own anything and God will honor your truth and your trust.

The best advice that I can give is for you to go to a quiet place, dump out your Puzzle, and begin to put it together.

58 Responses to THE PUZZLE

  1. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I really like this piece of the puzzle because it is one of the corner pieces. It is always easiest to find the corners of the puzzle, but they are also the easiest to build from. I don’t know much about construction, but what I do know is that the foundation must be built first and if it is from stone then one starts with a corner not in the middle of the wall.

    Among others, I also found this statement to be of significant importance:

    “The picture can sometimes be used as a clue and other times as proof of proper assembly.”

    The reason I find it so, is because the picture in many of the churches doesn’t match the Word. I am not putting them down. It is just that if they referred to the picture then they compared the picture given to the one that they are building then they might see more clearly. I am also not saying that I can see the picture any better because it really is a big picture and not all of it can be seen at once. What I am saying is that we need to constantly refer back to the picture and stop trying to force the pieces into places that they don’t fit. It is only a matter of time before we realize the mistakes and have to disassemble in preparation for reassembly. That in itself is also not a problem except for the limited amount of time we have.

    I can only thank God for his grace and mercy. Without which we would most certainly all fail.

    I believe at judgement, we are to show our imperfect picture for analyses in order to discover our next placement in a larger picture and in our imperfection, we will be perfectly shaped for that fit 🙂

    I appreciate you taking the time to write down your thoughts. It is a difficult task to put them in order. One that I am not gifted with.

  2. astudent says:

    creationwittness,

    I have to laugh! It is indeed a difficult task to place one’s thoughts in order. My thoughts are not in the same order as your thoughts. What I find even more difficult is to understand another’s order of thoughts. Well, that might not even be possible.

    I believe that you do a pretty good job of explaining your thoughts.

    You know that I always seem to disagree and I appreciate your patience.

    Just so you know and for me to stay in character, I do not believe we will be judged at the great Day of Judgment. We have already admitted that we are sinners and have been judged.

    The dead will be judged at the end of time, but we are alive! (Rev 20:12-15) The lake of fire is the second death and we have been saved from the second death, which is to be removed from the presence of God. Our name is in the Book of Life!

    By the way, I had not thought of the corners of the puzzle as the best way to start assembly. That is a good point.

  3. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I agree with you about what is referred to by some as “the white throne judgement” Rev 20:11, but I was speaking of the judgement of reward (if it can be called so) keeping the parable of talents in mind and such verses as Rev 22:12

  4. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I do not consider that we will receive different rewards in Heaven. I know that one can see the parable of the talents as different rewards, but if you look closely, you will see that the one with five talents received the same reward as the one with two talents: “You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!”

    Also consider the parable in Matthew 20:1-16. They all received the same reward, although some worked more than others.

    As I see it, I do not want more than others. If I have more than someone else, then I should share with them until we are equal.

    That will not work in this world, but in the next world I believe it will be the normal thing to do.

  5. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I am speaking of position of work after being granted entry. It could be seen as a type of payment, but it would not be a monetary one. It is one of what a person is capable of doing just as the men in the parable of talents were awarded. According to talent. In my eyes not something I desire to shirk off as being uneccessary or something I should delay (5 virgins and the man with one unused talent). We may be granted entry by faith, but my faith demands good works which is true joy and love. I call it judgement because it is based on our accomplishments here ie. How well we have understood (completed) the puzzle.

  6. creationwitness says:

    *[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

  7. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    You raise a good point. I suppose that I see the parable of the talents as though I am a man with very few talents. Maybe just one and I have been wise enough to put it in a bank. There is very little work in placing it in a bank.

    I agree that there are things that are required of us to keep the gift of God and one way to look at those things is with the understanding that they are work.

    However, it is difficult for me to view them as work, because I enjoy our Father so much. The main point of the Bible, as I understand it, is to tell us about our Father and it is great joy to search out and find understanding. The more understanding one has the more love for God is gained.

    That covers the first Royal Command. I find the second command a joy also and not work.

    This is probably a case of, what is the definition that one applies to the word work.

    Thinking along those lines, I looked up the word work and I found that there are 54 definitions for the same word! “Work out” is one listed and it has 10 definitions of it’s own!

    The 27th definition would be the one that I would apply to the phrase “good works” That is” to have an effect or influence, as on a person or on the mind or feelings of a person”,

    It seems to me that good works are an example to others of our Father. One way to view it is a work, because it takes effort, but everything takes effort: even thinking.

    The concept of work is really confusing when someone, who plays a game well, plays it for practice. Is he, or she playing, or working?

    Hummmm, one way I look at your comment I agree and yet from a different angle I do not! However, even when I do not, I believe you are correct!

    Ha, are you confused yet?

  8. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I do not understand your reason for quoting Revelation 11:18. If it was to indicate that we would be judged, I do not view it that way. The way I see it is, the dead will be judged and we will receive our reward: new spiritual bodies, etc.

  9. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I used to be somewhat confused over work, but it is made clear in some of the issues that you have also brought up over time and resting. If God is not a liar then we know that when he says he rested on the seventh day, then he did rest and if it is still the seventh day as you have commented, then he is still at rest.

    How do I put the contradiction together that arises in John 5:17? First it is no contradiction. It is a different work. In Genesis it says the heavens and earth were finished and then goes on to say he rested on the seventh day from all his work which “he had made”, blessed and sanctified it etc.

    My conclusion is that the work at present is spiritual and that is why I find it joyful. When it was the work of this world it was only from paycheck to paycheck meaning absolutely nothing “empty”. Even the unconverted feel that. Jesus whom it is said “broke the sabbath” never did so except in man’s eyes. He “filled” it’s purpose. He taught and healed. This convinces me that the sabbath still has purpose and that purpose is to learn how to focus on God at least one day per week and on the day given so as to create good habit. Some people like yourself are focused on God at every given moment anyway and so I question if it is still necessary. My answer to that is yes, to fulfill all righteousness and that you are doing. To the pharisees doing any kind of work was against the law. Except of course unless they needed to water their cattle. They totally missed the point.

    I quoted Rev 11:18 because I am led to believe that every man’s reward is different according to what he is capable of. Yes, I agree that we all enter God’s kingdom no matter how much or little we have done, but that is not the end of all things. Going back to the talents read the other version in Luke 19 where every man is given the same beginning and yet rewarded accordingly.

    I use the word judgement because I feel if a person is to be rewarded then he will be rewarded according to his work. I wouldn’t expect Paul’s awesome reward for the insignificant amount of work that I have done. I laugh when I write that, but it is in all honesty.

    I very much agree with you also in that if I have more I will share it with my siblings, but not to those that are unworthy. I like our Father am not moved with cheer to spoil a child. I have seen the destruction it accomplishes and so reward must also be judged.

    In some sense I feel I already have my reward. The additional rewards are not what I work for. I work because I love God’s law. I see it as the only way to function correctly without which all is vanity.

    Thank you brother. When you write down your thoughts it compels me to think over and explain myself which helps to clarify my own thoughts 🙂

  10. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I see two things that we view from just a small angle of difference and it results in a rather large different view of the picture.

    The first is I think that you seem to believe that Gen 2:2 states that God entered His rest. I thought the same, until I looked closer at the verse.

    The verse says that God entered His rest when “all” of His work was done. However, all of His work is not done, so He has yet to enter His rest.

    (Gen 2:2 KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    I quoted the King James Version, because it seems clearer, or at least clearer as to how I view my understanding. It says “on” the seventh day, not by the seventh day, as the NIV says. Days are made up of hours and it is possible to be in a day when something that is going too happened, has not yet happened.

    Perhaps this is a bit clearer when we look at (Rev 14:7 NIV) “He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”” Notice the time is said as “the hour” and the same is said in Rev 18:10, 17 & 19.

    I am saying that it is the seventh day, but not yet the hour that God will judge man.

    As far as dividing physical work from spiritual work, it seems to me that God has always done both; physical and spiritual work.

    Look at the words of Elihu in the book of Job. (Job 33:4 NIV) “The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” (Job 33:6 NIV) I am just like you before God; I too have been taken from clay.

    Didn’t the Spirit of God give us physical life, first and then spiritual life? Weren’t we also taken from clay? Then isn’t God still working: creating men physically and also spiritually?

    Look at Job 36:27-30 (NIV) “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind. Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion? See how he scatters his lightning about him, bathing the depths of the sea.” Doesn’t this still happen and because it does is not God still working physically?

    While we are considering Job, look at Job 34:14-15 (NIV) “If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust.” God has not withdrawn and entered His rest. He is still creating: not creating the earth or sun and moon, as they are complete, but He is still creating mankind.

    Actually, as I consider the universe, I see that nothing about creation is complete. The electron cannot continue spinning about the center of the atom, without something adding back to it the energy that was used, and is used, to move it! Our Father is adding that energy to all of the atoms that make up the universe.

    You say, “If God is not a liar then we know that when he says he rested on the seventh day, then he did rest”, but Jesus said, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” Which do you believe? As I see it, you must choose one verse to believe and then from your point of view, you cannot believe the other.

    I know that you believe both, so there must be a way to reconcile the two and for me there is: Geneses 2:2&3 are a prophecy about the future. I understand that you believe the type of work has changed, but I see both physical and spiritual work being accomplished all through man’s time; including now.

    Thanks for pointing out the parable in Luke 19. As I considered that parable I reached a level of understanding that I did not posses before. You see I understand that to want more than others is basically greed and so for me too work for a greater reward than others would be wrong.

    The truth is I would rather you have more than me. If the God that made the universe loves me and wants me as His child anything more is only icing on the cake.

    My Father loves Jesus more than He loves me, but what is that to me? Actually it is a wonderful thing that He does, because when He looks at me He sees the one He loves the most! I believe that God loves those who love Him and I believe that He returns love in like manner. Jesus was perfect in love and deserves more than me. He is the King of kings and earned the right to be so. He obeyed our Father and received a great reward for doing so, but I am convinced that He would have obeyed, even if there was no reward.

    The master in both parables did not give the money to the servants, but entrusted them with it, so the increase was to be gained for the master: it never was for the personal gain of the servants… I had always looked at the parables as indicating that one should work for personal gain and that just felt wrong to me. It still does and now I see that they were not working for gain for themselves, but gain for their master.

    I do not base my understanding on feelings, as feelings will lead one astray more often than up the right path. However, having said that, I do not want more than others and that feels right to me. Working so that I might gain more than others always felt wrong. Now I am no longer at odds with the parables.

    Actually, I hope God gives you more than me. Truth is I do not like cake with icing, as much as I like it without. It seems too sweet to me with icing on it.

    Now, for the second thing that we see from a slightly different angle. You say, “I very much agree with you also in that if I have more I will share it with my siblings, but not to those that are unworthy”. However, we are told to be like Jesus and Jesus even died for the unworthy!

    We are told in Matthew 5:39 not to resist an evil person. I think that we would both agree that an evil person is an unworthy person. Please consider Matthew 5: 38-48 and understand that God is perfect and gives to the unworthy as well as those who are different. I almost wrote ‘to those who are worthy’, but I know that I am not worthy and God does not give to me because I am worthy.

    However, our Father does give to the worthy: that is to Jesus, the only one that is worthy. God gave unworthy me to Him. Hallelujah!!!!

    I go to a church that holds to an understanding that to drink any alcohol is a sin. They cannot or will not accept Proverbs 31:6&7 (NIV) “Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.”, because they think of those who are perishing as unworthy. However, though I do not go looking for drunks, I am pleased to buy a drunk a drink, because, if he or she does not change, the only time they can be happy is when they are drunk. I do not want to take that away from them. Ha, I have found that at some point I have to stop buying, as I will end up with nothing!

    When we act like we are better than others and treat them as unworthy we condemn ourselves, because we are also unworthy. We must not forget where we came from (2 Pet 1:9).

    Again, you have been a great help to me, and again I thank you.

    May our Father bless you with more than He blesses me.

  11. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I have to skip back to verse 1 and when I do, I have to believe what it says. I can’t read it any other way.

    Genesis 2:1-3 KJV
    (1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    (3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    I believe our different perspectives are because of the definitions given to the word “work”. My definition is that we have both physical and spiritual work. God’s physical work ended on the sixth day. It was finished, but his spiritual work continues and he made us an example by sanctifying and resting. Are we in God’s seventh day? I believe it to be very, very likely. You then quoted Revelation 14:7 which backs up that God’s physical creation was “made”. I don’t deny being in an hour of the seventh day. I also don’t believe that God can’t continue some of the physical work. He will step in as necessary.

    Our daily work is what we do to survive. Our sabbath work is what we do to learn, replenish and live. It should go without saying that God rested on the seventh day so as to give us an example and not to actually because he needed rest. Very much like Jesus baptism. It was to “fulfil all righteousness”. It wouldn’t be a very good example to break one’s own guidelines.

    I am not trying to deny that God’s work has discontinued only that his focus has changed. Only God really knows what that focus is, but if we try and apply discontinuing our own physical labour on the sabbath, we will soon find ourselves in trouble. The Pharisees took it literally for every little thing and this is why many people now do not follow. They believe it to be too difficult and they don’t know that it is going to help them. It is to shift our focus from this material creation. Exactly what God did or is doing. He shifted his focus from the material to the spiritual.

    Jesus was in trouble for healing on the sabbath because the Pharisees considered that to be work. In all truth there is only one kind of work for us to do and that is God’s work. Everything else is only in support of our desire to learn. If we need to “break” sabbath to feed and water our animals, then “break” sabbath. Otherwise they are going to die. What kind of healing is that?
    Now what you are saying about greed is entirely true, but I am not saying that we do more to get more nor am I saying the opposite. We do what needs to be done and we do it with all of our might. If there is any competition, it is with ourself to improve. To become better and more perfect at what we do. Many verses back this up.

    If you will notice the parable of the talents in Matt 25, one man receives 5, one 2 and the other only 1. Now ask why was this man given 5 in the first place? My conclusion is that he was worthy of it. The man with only one talent failed. He was only worthy of one until found not even worthy of that. God doesn’t spoil us. That would be a dangerous thing. Nor should we spoil one another. That would be just as dangerous. Do we give an irresponsible teen a car to drive? I hope we use good judgment.

    Now you also mention that they we entrusted with the talents and not given them and that is true. It all goes back to God’s work and why we do it. What is it to gain the world?

    Jesus died for all of us unworthy sinners in order to save us. Without his grace we would have no hope. Eventually we will all come to terms with what he has done for us, repent and follow him. Until then, we need to survive to have a chance to learn. I have no doubt in my mind that he wouldn’t have sacrificed himself if he knew it was in vain. What would be the point?

    It is only a matter of time until we become wise enough to actually follow God. We have a good idea what happens to the unworthy when time is up. Understanding that we are presently unworthy forces us to consider what to do in order to become worthy children.

    You may see contradiction in how I am using worthy or unworthy, but I can’t easily use another word except maybe responsible.

    It isn’t about getting more. It is about taking care of what we have in order to be found worthy of taking care of more. Does that sound any better? I am sorry if I gave you the impression of me running after the things in this world. My treasure is in heaven. Quality of work cannot be compared and there is no quality without the love of the work. It therefor is not work in my mind. That is only a word.

    The one who dies with the most toys is …. dead!

    One last thing; Romans 14 becomes very important. First because Paul is telling us that our conscious mind is important. If we knowingly continue in sin, I am sure it will only bring punishment. Paul uses the term “be fully persuaded”. He also points out we should not be judging another man’s servant one way or the other. This is all in regards to “doubtful disputations”. The sabbath holds no doubt for me, but I had to prove it to myself. I now understand why it is commanded. Also being sanctified by God sets it far apart from every other day. Doubtful? That might not be what you want to hear, but it is the truth as I understand it. If you are fully persuaded not to follow, then no worries. I wouldn’t think it would help anyone if they were not convinced that it was the correct thing to do.

    Thank you astudent. It is always a pleasure to think about, learn and comment on God. I always understand something valuable.

    Bless you brother.

  12. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I apologize for not answering quickly. I will not bore you with an excuse, but I am sorry. Please forgive me.

    We have a very similar problem with Genesis 2:1-3. Verse 3 says “from all his work” and the word all is “kol” (Strong’s Concordance H3605). Therefore, I can’t read it any other way, than the way I understand it.

    I cannot split the word all and because of that I cannot split God’s work into spiritual work and physical work.

    Even saying that, I see stars exploding (being erased) so I ask myself, “Is God done with the universe?” and my answer is no. My answer agrees with John 5:17. By the way, Jesus was referring to the work He had done on the Sabbath and He included His father. If His Father was/is always at his work, then He was also working on man’s Sabbath.

    The word “always” is also a word that I can’t read any other way.

    I look at John 5:19 and see that if Jesus was working on the Sabbath, and He sees his Father working and always does what His Father does, then His Father is working on the Sabbath as well.

    I am quite sure that I will not be “found worthy”. I will not be condemned because I am clothed with Christ. My sins are hidden from God by the white robe of my Savior. It is not me that will be found worthy, but because Jesus was found worthy I am saved.

    This is the seventh day of God and in the seventh day we can do no work to acquire salvation. The Sabbath was a symbol to the Jews that this day was coming and now is and we can do no work for our salvation.

    The Apostles changed the day of worship to Sunday, which is the first day of the week. That symbolized a New Covenant: the Old Covenant is passed away and so I do not celebrate the Old Covenant, but I will worship on all of man’s days, because now they all fall on the Seventh of God’s days.

    I truly am fully persuaded not to celebrate the Sabbath, but to celebrate Sunday, a day of a new week, symbolizing a New Covenant, and I hope I have been clear as to why.

    As for our responsibilities after we have asked for and accepted our Savior, I believe that we are supposed to obey the law to the best of our ability.

    The Law of God is very simple (Mark 12:30 NIV) “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” And (Mark 12:31 NIV) “The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

    One does have to work to obey these two commandments, so perhaps, I might say that one cannot work to gain salvation, but one might have to work to keep it.

    However, that is an argument for a different day.

    Though we disagree about some things, I do agree that it is always a pleasure to think about, learn and comment on God, and I also always understand better as we exchange our understanding.

    May God bless you more than me.

  13. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    At times a delay in response cannot and maybe should not be avoided. I only hope all is well with you. No need to apologize to me.

    Our interpretations are indeed quite different. You quote “from all his work” whereas I am quoting “from all his work which he has made”. The word “made” being key for me and being physical creation. Other verses confirm this for me like Hebrews 4:3.

    I truly believe that God’s created work has two aspects. The old and the new testaments being metaphorical for the physical and spiritual. In the old testament everything was very material based including the law which was engraved in stone. The man working on the sabbath being stoned to death. In John chapter 8 we find Jesus writing in the soil possibly writing “I will have mercy and not sacrifice”. Notice both having been written by the finger of God.

    You ask the question “is God done with the universe” and I think because you see the universe reproducing itself that you believe that God is still working on the heavens and the earth and all the host of them instead of them being finished as he says in verse 1. I see it as being a finished physical creation that continues on it’s own. It reproduces and dies just as we do. Does God sustain it? He says he does. Is he done with it? I say he is finished with the physical. I believe him. The foundations being laid he now moves on to the spiritual teaching in the new testament. Why else faith and no more physical manifestations?

    Now you mention “man’s sabbath” and rightly so. Jesus said it was made for man and that the Son of man is Lord of it implying himself or man. Either way it remains as Paul speaks of in Hebrews 4. Working on sabbath? Yes, but not out making money. We work by dedication to our Father and doing his work not our own.

    You say you will not be condemned. I certainly doubt that you would be.

    Matthew 5:19 KJV
    (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Why should I not strive to use more of the talent that I have been given glorify God? That is why he gave it to me no? Do I do it to be called great? Personally I do it because I believe it is right to do.
    John 15:8 KJV
    (8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    1 Corinthians 9:26-27 KJV
    (26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    (27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    I agree we can do no work to obtain salvation as we can only be justified by faith. But having this faith do we then lay down? Abraham showed his faith by his works:

    James 2:21-22 KJV
    (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    Our understanding here is very different. I believe I am saved by Jesus Christ unto good works. What else would I be prepared for?

    2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV
    (20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    (21) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

    Now you also say the Apostles changed the day of worship? I have never seen this scripture, but have read the Catholic church changed it to differentiate itself from the Jews and they believe they are justified to change law because they believe Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. Regardless, I follow what I find written. Why would God change the fundamentals? My answer is he didn’t. Man under influence did and it remains taught and learned by the majority.

    It is good you are fully persuaded. I am too, but note that I do not celebrate the sabbath. I observe the keeping of it. I dedicate myself on sabbath to God or at least I do my very best to do so. I do not do my own pleasure, but his. I was commanded to do so and I follow it in the faith that it is there for a reason. Not only for the Jews, but made for man. Have any of the other ten commandments been done away with? It is actually because of the strict conformity of the sabbath that we don’t feel it necessary. That conformity is man’s understanding of it and not what God intended as Jesus did show us by his supposed breaking of it. If man ceased to do everything on the sabbath, he would die.

    Matthew 22:40 KJV
    (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Reading this, I detect that there are other commandments hanging from these two. They are obvious foundation for the remaining because all lead back to one, the other or both. In all truth there is only one.

    I do agree with you on God’s seventh day being fulfilled now. I see no reason that it cannot be true. This is how I understand things and I know we don’t agree on everything. As far as I understand, we don’t have to. Have we already been saved or do we only have the opportunity to be saved?

    Philippians 2:10-12 KJV
    (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    (12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    There is always something more for me to learn.

    Bless you and I pray this finds you well.

  14. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I am getting old and I have seen many things. One thing that I have found is that we see what we look for. That sounds rather simple, but it is profound.

    I also have found that if you say someone is wrong, they immediately begin to think of how to defend their position and that keeps them from really considering if they are truly wrong. It is a condition of pride and we all suffer from it.

    I see God still working, both physically and spiritually. So, I am guilty of looking for the ways that He does.

    I believe that God makes everyone; forms us all in the womb. There are verses that support that in the Old Testament (Psa 119:73, Eccl 11:5, Isa 29:16, 43:6&7, 44:2, 44:24, Jer 1:5) and also in the New Testament (Rom 9:20, Mat 1:20). These are physical things and they are still being accomplished. I believe that God created me and formed me in the womb and I believe the same about you.

    It seems to me that I only have to show you, from Scripture that God is not yet finished creating the universe, and then you will see, or understand better.

    So, suppose that you are standing by the river of the water of life (Rev 22:1&2) and you look back in time. Suppose you ask yourself, “Was God’s work done before this river, these gates, and walls, and this great city built? Isn’t this river, these gates and walls, and this great city physical things?” Didn’t God destroy the universe, before He made these things? Was He finished with the universe before He destroyed it and remade everything?

    You say, “Now you also say the Apostles changed the day of worship? I have never seen this scripture.” Well, consider John 20:19, and 20:26 and you will see that the disciples not only met on the first day of the week, but also were blessed for doing so, as Jesus, Himself, attended the meetings. Also, consider Acts 20:7 and First Corinthians 16:1&2.

    Now, this is the third time that I have written an answer to your last comment. The first one I deleted, because it was way to long and even at that, it was not clear enough. The second one turned out to be just as long and still not clear enough. Now our Father has awoken me in the middle of the night and given me the way to answer you. I probably will not be as clear to you as our Father was to me, but still I must try to convey to you what He gave to me.

    First, I must agree with you. The Sabbath was a command from God (Exo 16:23&28), one of the Ten Commandments and it is a sin not to observe it, which is what you say. Therefore, you are correct when you say it is a lasting covenant for an Israelite. I could argue that I am not an Israelite, so it does not apply to me. However, for the sake of clarity I will say that it does apply to me.

    That means that I agree with you, that I sin by not observing the Sabbath as you do.

    Now, here is the basic difference in what we believe. I believe that my Savior allowed Himself to be sacrificed for all of my sins: not just some, but all of them. So, if I choose not to celebrate the Sabbath, that sin is covered.

    Jesus allowed Himself to be slandered, libeled, captured, spit upon, beaten with fists, flogged, stripped naked in full view of everyone, and nailed to a cross, then raised up with nothing on, so everyone could see Him die and He did all of this for me; that I might be released from the penalty of the law. How could I say or do anything that would add to or subtract anything from this? If I claimed I still must observe the Sabbath, then I would be adding something to His sacrifice.

    You see, your savior is not my Savior. Your savior’s sacrifice was just a little bit short, as you believe you must still observe the Sabbath. You do not believe that all of your sins are covered, so your savior is not the same Savior as mine, as my Savior died to pay the price for all of my sins.

    You would have me believe in your savior! Why would I?!!!!

    Don’t you understand that you are preaching a different Gospel? A gospel that claims we still must obey the law! That is not good news, but the true Gospel really is Good News, because if we believe, we are no longer under the Law; any part of the Law.

    If one compares the Sabbath commandment to all of the other commandments and considers the importance of the Sabbath, it is clear that it is the least important of the commandments.

    All of the Law hinges on the two most important commandments. The first is to love our Father with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength. The second of the greatest commands is to love our neighbor as our self (Mark 12:29-31).

    Not observing the Sabbath does not violate either of the most important commandments. My father is always with me and I with Him, 24 hours a day, every day, from now and forever, so it doesn’t matter if the day is the Sabbath. I have not hurt my Father in any way, by working or not working on the Sabbath, or any other day.

    Though all of my sins are covered by the Sacrifice of my Savior, it would not even be a sin against my neighbor if I did not observe the Sabbath. It is only wrong to not observe the Sabbath because God said to observe it. It hurts no one if we do not observe the Sabbath. Therefore, it is the least of the commandments.

    You savior has not saved you from the least of the commandments of the Law then how can he save you from the greatest of the commandments?

    The Gospel is so simple. It is that the sacrifice of the Son of God saves us from “all” of our sins. If you think otherwise then you do not believe. That is also simple, but the simple things are the hardest to understand, to grasp, and then to explain.

    Stop acting like a Galatian. The book of Galatians was written to you, so that you might understand that it is not right to observe special days (Gal 4:10). Read and consider all that God said (through Paul) about the Galatians and you will see yourself in Scripture.

    I ask your forgiveness for sounding so harsh, but I do not know a way to say this without sounding harsh. However, I must say it as I believe God would hold me responsible, as a poor watchman if I did not (Ezek 3:21). It is my responsibility to warn you and your responsibility to change. Please change for my sake as well as yours, because I do not want to lose you as a brother (Gal 3:10). Please, please, please.

    May our Father bless you even more than He blesses me, (if that were possible).

  15. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I believe every Christian is going to find what is comfortable for them to follow and very little will ever change a person’s mind with any amount of ease right or wrong. Having said that, that is not why I discuss such things and I believe you are the same. We discuss these subjects to ascertain our understanding in the hope of following God as he would like us to. For me, everything is in question until I have a sound answer.

    Even though God’s work may involve physical action, it is all for spiritual purpose. The sabbath was made for man not for God. If it was made for us and given to us to follow, don’t we deny God’s wishes if we do not?

    Your argument is that the sabbath day has changed to the first day of the week, but I will begin with what you call physical work and that is forming a child in the womb. I ask myself if God physically form or spiritually form? The answer for me is simple. God is spirit. His entire creation originates there and he doesn’t touch anything physical except by His Son. I do not deny that God does not work. I never have. I have only come to define work in different ways. Even rest is a type of work. Our heart still beats etc., I am sure God is not asking us to totally stop functioning when he says to stop working or rest. This again is where the pharisees erred. They had seemed to think almost any type of work was a no no. It’s no wonder very few people have ever followed sabbath.

    These are questions I have asked myself:

    1. Why was the sabbath made?
    2. Have any of the other ten commandments been done away with or changed?
    3. Is there scripture stating the sabbath has changed in any way?
    3. When Jesus talks about works on the sabbath, what type of work is he talking about?

    We differentiate physical and spiritual work but in truth you can’t. Both are required for the end result which hopefully is spiritual perfection. But working to sustain physical life and working to sustain spiritual life are very different although mutually beneficial. Sometimes both are necessary on the sabbath:

    Luke 13:15 KJV
    (15) The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

    I maintain that the sabbath is a one day per week dedication to God. Can it be changed to any other day? That is not for me to say, but I do know God sanctified the seventh day for it and that is what I follow. Can we do certain work on the sabbath? My answer is what Jesus taught us. Do we go out and use the day to make money or do things that we can do on the other six days? God is pretty clear on that. Will we go to hell if we don’t follow? Some people are foolish enough to believe there is no forgiveness.

    I do not disregard what God has said. To simplify things, I read these verses and ask myself a few questions:

    Genesis 1:31 KJV
    (31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Genesis 2:1-2 KJV
    (1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    Was anything completed on the sixth day? Did God end his work which he had made? Did he rest on the seventh day? Now I read verses as these and ask a few more:

    John 5:17 KJV
    (17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    Luke 14:5 KJV
    (5) And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

    What type of work was Jesus doing? Did he make a man whole on the sabbath with physical work?

    John 7:23 KJV
    (23) If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

    When I read everything that is written about this I can see we have never followed sabbath correctly and we continue to deny it until this very day.

    The verses you quote about the sabbath being changed to Sunday? I still do not read that there is any change. I only read they were together in worship on Sunday. That doesn’t change the sabbath commandment and no apostle said so. It only goes to show we can worship more than one day per week. Thank God as I would otherwise find life unbearable.

    The remaining of what you write I have to say I disagree with most of it and to explain my point I ask a few simple questions. Are you going to go out and knowingly break any of the other commandments? Then why the sabbath?

    The sabbath was made for the Israelites? Sorry that is a twist.

    Psalms 37:31 KJV
    (31) The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
    Psalms 40:8 KJV
    (8) I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
    Psalms 119:34 KJV
    (34) Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
    Psalms 119:70 KJV
    (70) Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
    Proverbs 3:1 KJV
    (1) My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
    Isaiah 51:7 KJV
    (7) Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

    And to:

    Romans 7:14-25 KJV
    (14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    These last verses are interesting because heaven and earth have not passed and that our righteousness must exceed what we have already seen.

    Matthew 5:18-20 KJV
    (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    It is not me that preaches another gospel.

    Romans 8:1-5 KJV
    (1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    Me? I would repent, but that is me. I am sorry if you still don’t see it. You can fault me.

    Regarding the new heaven and earth one will find that the sabbath is still followed. Somewhere in Zechariah I believe and I always remember “with a rod of iron” too.

    The verse you quote in Galatians proves a point as it points to the written law that the pharisees followed. I think it is clear that God’s law is not material, but a shadow of things to come.

    Brother. I most sincerely pray you see the light. Always follow in faith.

  16. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    To add a few more thoughts to add:

    If the carnal mind is enmity against God, then it obviously will do everything against God. As Paul says it is not subject to the law nor can be.

    Romans 8:1-14 KJV
    (1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Is sabbath not for building a relationship with God? A good foundation?

    Luke 6:47-49 KJV
    (47) Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
    (48) He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
    (49) But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

    You see Brother. We do understand things differently. I ask the question you ask, but turn it around. If I can’t follow the least of God’s commandments, how is it I follow His greatest?

    I love God with everything I have and if ever in question…. I follow what he clearly says.

    I can continue to write so much more, but it would be of no use if you can’t already see it. It is all in front of you. Even trying, I cannot see it from your point of view. I think you see me as a legalist, but I am not. I follow spiritual law walking with great care. The fear of God if you like.

    Sorry if this offends you, but it is also my duty as a watchman to tell you. I believe you are in error and I wouldn’t say that if I didn’t care for you.

    God’s will be done. Bless you.

  17. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    In some sense I must thank you because our different points of view compel me to explain something I think is important to anyone following Christ. The basic belief I have is that if we have faith in Christ, we will follow his laws.

    After thinking over many things that you have said, I feel you may be of the opinion that I am trying to say we are saved by following the law and that if we don’t, we are condemned. That is not what I am saying at all. What I am trying to get across is that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but con move on from there. Once we have been set free of the condemnation of sin, we can break free of it. We are no longer a slave to it’s calling. I think there are many parables that are all fitting to show that we don’t stop our learning at being set free of the penalty. Christ has paid the penalty for us and now it is our duty to move forward as we are now free to do so.

    The ten virgins come to mind. All of them were chosen, but only five had prepared. The other five? I think you know the story. The next one that comes to mind is the unprofitable servants in Luke 7:17 only doing what is required and we can add the parable of the talents again. In all of these parables some people are given certain extra things to build upon or prepare. The ten lepers and the two sons (one obedient) also come to mind now.

    All of Romans and Hebrews backs this up. Once we are saved we are free to move forward.

    A few key verses:

    Romans 6:1 KJV
    (1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Hebrews 10:26 KJV
    (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    I believe it is God’s will that we follow his guidelines for life and to do otherwise is sin. We are asked to follow sabbath as one of the least of all commandments and if we choose not to or find reason not to, we are not doing his will. We sin and actually we not only sin against Father, we sin against ourself.

    Will we condemn ourself to death if we do not follow? I think of course not, but I do believe there will be some type of punishment. Luke 12:47 comes to mind. In truth I believe we would have to retake the test.

    You may have found what you believe is good enough reason to worship on Sunday and you gave me three verses to show that sabbath has been changed to the first day of the week, but I would ask you to search Acts for “sabbath” and see how many returns you receive and what they all say. I absolutely see not one statement anywhere that says the sabbath has been done away with or changed.

    Sorry. It was not Zechariah that has the verses I was thinking of before. It is Isaiah:

    Isaiah 66:22-23 KJV
    (22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    (23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    And:

    James 2:17 KJV
    (17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    In conclusion:

    Hebrews 6:1 KJV (all of 6 is profitable)
    (1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    Please excuse me for adding on so much to my original response. I find it quite difficult to summarize every thought in a short space.

    Blessings

  18. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I will only answer your idea that we should celebrate (look up the definition of celebrate) the Sabbath this time and one more time. Because God says, “(Titus 3:9 NIV) But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.” I know why they are unprofitable and useless and therefore I must stop.

    You say, “The basic belief I have is that if we have faith in Christ, we will follow his laws.” However, the Sabbath was a part of the Law of Moses, not the Law of Christ. The Law of Moses can only condemn. It can never save, because it is based on rules and regulations. Jesus came to save us from the Law of Moses, which condemned and did not save. Though the Law of Moses is good, I cannot celebrate a system of laws that condemn (again check the definition of the word celebrate).

    Please do not listen to closely to me. However, you would be wise to listen closely to the Apostle Paul. He wrote Galatians to those who would fall back into the Law of Moses. That is anyone that tries to obey the law is condemned.

    You say, “What I am trying to get across is that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but can move on from there”, but you are not moving on, you are moving back: the wrong direction.

    You say, “Once we have been set free of the condemnation of sin, we can break free of it.” Well you are set free of the condemnation of sin by your faith in Jesus, but if you return to the Law of Moses you will be condemned again. (Rom 4:14 &15 NIV) “For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.”

    Christ did not give us power over sin. We cannot break free of sin and therefore no longer sin. He accepted our just punishment for sin, therefore if we just believe, we will be saved. We cannot break free of sin. Test this: try to go sin free and see how far you get.

    You say,” I would ask you to search Acts for “Sabbath” and see how many returns you receive and what they all say”. So I did and they say that Paul who believed in Jesus went to those who did not believe in Jesus to try to persuade them. Those who did not believe in Jesus gathered together on the Sabbath and so that is when he went. By going to the Jewish meetings and trying to convince those that were trying to following the Law, Paul was working on the Sabbath! At the same time he was obeying Jesus (Mat 12:12, Mark 3:4, and Luke 6:9). Paul was attempting to save their lives, as Jesus asked in Mark 3:4 “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”

    “So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” (Gal 3:24 & 25 NIV) I will live by faith and therefore will not celebrate the Law of Moses. That is a step backward into the law that condemns, not a step forward. You, however, are still trying to obey the Law.

    There was a man that heard about an island of paradise. He went to the sea shore and could even see the island. So, he stripped and began to swim toward the island, but it was too far for his strength and he began to drown. God saw this and sent a bodyguard to rescue him. When they reached the shore, where the man started from, the bodyguard explained to the man that God was sending a boat, which he would captain, to transport all those who wanted to go to the island of paradise. All the man had to do was to believe him and wait for the boat, and the man said that he believed, but the man did not believe, and so when the bodyguard left to rescue another swimmer, he jumped back into the sea and set off on his own again. God saw this, but He did not send a second bodyguard; for there is no second bodyguard.

    Those who do not go to the island of paradise in the Ark that God will send, and has sent, will not reach it. It is too far to reach by man’s own effort.

    (Acts 15:5-11 NIV) Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    You would have me, a Gentile, and all of those who listen to you, return to the law and attempt to obey the law that only brings death. Why would you test God by trying to put a yoke on my neck, that none of the Jews, or the Apostles, or their fathers, were able to bear?

    Now, I said that I would answer you one more time. Do not answer this comment, because in my next comment, if God lets me, I am going to explain to you that you have never celebrated or observed, do not celebrate, or observe, and cannot celebrate or observe the Sabbath.

    This series of comments have, again, helped me understand more about God’s Word and again I thank you for driving me farther into the Word.

    May God bless you more than He blesses me.

  19. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    Are you telling me not to comment any more on this? I am confused by your statement, but I leave you with these which are not my comments but God’s:

    Romans 3:31 KJV
    (31)  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Psalms 119:126 KJV
    (126)  It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

  20. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I said,”Now, I said that I would answer you one more time. Do not answer this comment, because in my next comment, if God lets me, I am going to explain to you that you have never celebrated or observed, do not celebrate, or observe, and cannot celebrate or observe the Sabbath.”

    However, you did try to answer my comment: even before you heard it! I sometimes wonder if you listen to me at all!

    If you are willing to listen, I will explain the Sabbath, as I understand it. Please forgive me, but I do claim to understand it.

    The Sabbath and everything about it was told in the sixteenth chapter of Exodus. When one considers everything that is written, it becomes clear that the underlying theme of chapter 16 is manna, not the Sabbath. The Sabbath is only what the Israelites were to do, with the manna, on the seventh day.

    The chapter explains where manna was to come from (16:4), that they were to gather it (verse 4), how much they were to gather (verse 4, 5&16), what it looked like (verse 14& 31), even what it tasted like (verse 31), and also why God gave the Sabbath (verse 4).

    As you know, they were told to gather enough for one day, for five days, and then enough for two days, on the sixth day.

    They were told to prepare the double portion on the sixth day and save it for the next day (verse 23). They were told to eat the manna that was left from the sixth day, on the seventh day (verse 25).

    God supplied manna until they reached the border of Canaan (verse 35).

    Now, it should go without saying, that if God no longer supplied manna, then one could no longer obey the commands pertaining to it!

    You say that you obey the command of the Sabbath and I have to ask ‘Where did you get the manna that you are commanded to eat on the Sabbath? (verse 25)

    The Sabbath is only a name for the seventh day of the ritual. If one does not obey the first six days, they cannot obey the last day and then say they have obeyed the law of the Sabbath! If there is no manna to gather, then there is no manna to eat any day, from the first day to the last day.

    God gave the Israelites bread from heaven to test them (verse 4). I do not want to be tested by God. That is what Job wanted; that is until he got it! What would I tell God when He asks me, ‘From where did you gather the manna that I commanded you to eat on the seventh day?’ I have fear, because I believe that He certainly would ask.

    Without manna, one cannot obey the Sabbath that God gave to the Israelites. Your sabbath is a man made sabbath and cannot be ‘The Sabbath’. It is only a do nothing day.

    Again I say, “You have never celebrated or observed, do not celebrate, or observe, and cannot celebrate or observe the Sabbath.”

    If you understood the seven days of creation then you might understand the Sabbath. The seven days of creation are days of God’s time, not our 24 hour days. The true manna, the bread of life, is Jesus. This is the sixth day and we are supposed to gather a double portion, so that we will have enough for the seventh day.

    When you say, “Christ has paid the penalty for us and now it is our duty to move forward as we are now free to do so.” You have stopped gathering manna. You are trying to justify yourself by observing the law. In effect, you are saying that the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough to cover your sin; you must still attempt to obey the Law of Moses.

    If there is a penalty for trying to obey the Law and no one can obey the law (Rom 11:32 NIV) then why would anyone return to the Law and place themselves in danger of the penalty all over again?

    If you really want to understand our Father, then study “Mercy” not the Law. Our salvation depends on mercy not on our own efforts and to attempt to obey the Law is to attempt to rely on our own efforts. (Rom 9:15&16 NIV) “For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”

    As a Christian, I have only two rules to follow: Love my God with all my heart, soul, and strength and love others as much as I love myself. I cannot justify myself in any way and especially not by doing nothing, one day a week. If I believed that, it would belittle the sacrifice of my Lord and Savior. Just as Paul the Apostle said, “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    Again, when you say, “Christ has paid the penalty for us and now it is our duty to move forward as we are now free to do so.” Consider these verses and ask yourself ‘Am I moving forward or backward?’ Am I doing what my Father wants me to do, or am I trying to do what our Father wanted Israel to do, while they were in the desert?

    (Gal 2:16-21 NIV) know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

    (Rom 9:30-32 NIV) What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

    You are stumbling over the stumbling stone as you attempt to justify yourself by obeying the law.

    “Now, I am done with your claim that you and I must celebrate the Sabbath. I believe that you and I have said almost all that we could about the Sabbath.

    (Titus 3:9&10 NIV) “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.”

    Creationwitness, I believe in my heart that you are not a divisive person: that you are trying to understand the Word of God. So, please stop claiming that we must follow the Law of Moses, when it is not even possible to do so. God tells us, “If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    As for me, I am going to try not to sin, and when I fail, because I surly will, I am going to rely on the faith that I have in the goodness, grace, and mercy of our Father to save me and that through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ: not by the Law of Moses, or “any” work of my own.

    May God bless you even more than He blesses me: and I do mean that.

  21. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I said I was confused so please don’t think I am not listening. Clarification is nice.

    I never said one must follow the ten commandments. You are putting words in my mouth. I follow God’s law in the spirit of the law. That would be the true law. Not the written in stone, but in the heart. You see, I cannot break the law because I faithfully follow it knowing it is correct. I am not stopping at Christ’s sacrifice for the world because if I did, then I would wrongly acknowledge there is no more for me to learn. I would already be saved and have nothing to worry about. I also will not turn back to sin. Christ died once for my past sins. Do I want to ask him to do it again for me? I wouldn’t even think of it. Why would I want to break his law? I can only do that if I remain in the flesh and follow the flesh. That would be impossible for me at this point, but I must add that if I do err and acknowledge my sin with repentance, then I know I will be forgiven. Do I therefor go and break the law? As Paul said.

    About the manna being the reason for God instituting the sabbath; in my mind that is clearly not the case because God tells us why he gave the seventh day to us and it is not only for rest (I should not need quote any or all of the verses given). The first sabbath actually occurred in Genesis 2 to obviously fulfill the righteousness of example and not that God needed the rest. It is also clear that men like Abraham obeyed God’s commandments Gen 26:5 before they were ever given to Moses. I also obey God’s law. If I didn’t I would be lawless. I don’t obey because it is written in stone and the penalty is death. I obey because I know it is correct to do and will bring life. Why would I look for any excuse not to? Is it me that is returning to the letter of the law? The law is written for the lawless. The children that need to learn it. Not for the ones that obey and do it. Rom 2:13, James 1:25 and 4:11.

    A question for you: How much of God’s law can you break without consequence?

    Twisting any of God’s word to something that conforms to man’s idea is simply wrong. Sunday of all things? You give me three verses to show that the apostles changed the seventh day to the first day and then see fault in me showing you how many times they preached on the seventh?

    A man that is going to learn the truth of God, must first forget what he has been falsely taught by man. Otherwise his bias will keep him exactly where he is.

    Sorry brother. I know that doesn’t sit well with you, but that is what I have been taught. God is spirit. His law is spirit. His church is spirit. Nothing else is true. Only a shadow of it.

    God bless you brother.

  22. creationwitness says:

    I need to correct an earlier statement. I said “I never said that” in regards to the ten commandments, when in fact I may have said and thought that to be correct in the past. My first understanding of the ten commandments was taught to me by other men and is in fact one of the methods used to dissuade men from God. Without correct understanding one may either continue in sin, believing that because of their faith in Jesus Christ they can do no wrong or may turn away from God because they are attempting to follow God in the flesh.

    God forgive.

  23. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I started writing a long list of reasons why a person should be keeping the sabbath holy instead of Sunday, but came to the quick conclusion that our different points of view will not change with any prompting from the other supporting your point on iron sharpening.

    You made a few accusations against me (forgiven) that show what I mean.. The exact same accusations can be just as easily turned around and for one example you said that if I follow the law, I put myself back under the law. I can say by breaking the law one puts themself back under the law because they never learned from the schoolmaster. Anyway I have studied both sides of the issue and my conclusion is that there is more than sufficient secular evidence that Sunday was instituted by unconverted men such as Constantine and later by individuals in the church long after the new testament was written. We would otherwise see more evidence than what you gave me of the change. Another thing I found is the lack of any accusation that Jesus Christ or any of the apostles ever broke the sabbath or any of the holy days for that matter. Jesus Christ of course was falsely accused as it is written he kept his father’s law John 15:10. If one of them had, it would no doubt have been noted among their other supposed transgressions. Paul only negated the law of circumcision which you will not if you go back and study was given to “Abraham and his seed” and not to every born man child. This is a noteworthy study in itself.

    I submit therefor that we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I will also leave a link of a website that I found with more than sufficient evidence of good reason to keep the sabbath holy. One point of interest that I found on this page that I hadn’t otherwise known was God’s statement here:

    Exodus 20:11 KJV
    (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    This not only supports God’s example of weekly rest found in Genesis, but also supports the institution of the seventh day as sabbath. That kind of destroys the idea that sabbath was only given to the Israelites and affirms that it was made for man.

    Thank you brother. This study not only been interesting but also very informative. It leaves me today a much more faithful man.

    Cheers and God Bless

    I don’t support all things stated on this site or this page, but it is supported with scriptural study. It is only given for anyone wishing to further study the subject as it would be far too extensive to list here.

    https://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP323SabbathReasons.htm

  24. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I have a question.

    Perhaps I am wrong, but I get the idea that you do not meet with Christian brothers on the first day of the week (Sunday). If this is so, do you celebrate Communion?

  25. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    It is not ritual habit except for sabbath. All other days of the week are open to meeting as they arise. I do not celebrate communion in the mainstream church ritual as it is a yearly memorial, but having said that I remember Christ and am grateful for the sustenance provided when I eat, drink, bathe, etc., throughout the day.

    Now may I ask a question? Do you celebrate man’s feasts and traditions given by the church or do you celebrate God’s as outlined in scripture?

    I truly hope this helps you in some way. Blessings brother.

  26. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    To answer your question I would say yes and no. I am not a Catholic, so I do not celebrate Catholic designated holidays. The denomination that I attend celebrates Christmas and Easter, but even those are not required. We have special services for those times, but no one is required to attend. If you want to it is fine, and if you do not want to, that is also fine, although some might judge others, if they did not attend. The sin would be in the minds of those that judge and not in the minds of those who did, or did not attend.

    Doesn’t the whole world celebrate Christmas? To those who are Christians it is a celebration of the birth of Christ and to those who are not Christian it is a holiday to give and receive gifts and an excuse to have a party. Christmas is a tradition of the Church. No one really knows the exact date of the birth of Christ, so somewhere along the line of time, some branch of the Christian Church chose December 25 as the day to celebrate the birth of Christ and the whole world recognizes that day: if not the original reason for the day.

    The answer that you seek is, I do not celebrate the special days of the Law of Moses. I am not a Jew. I am a gentile and the Law of Moses was not given to gentiles.

    Having said that I believe everyone is required to obey the two Royal Laws that all of the Law is based on and that is to love the LORD with all their heart, soul, mind and strength, and the second is to love others as they love themselves. Even gentiles are required to obey those two Laws, and to do so every day: not just a special day.

    My denomination celebrates Communion every Sunday. It is a shock to me that a denomination only celebrates it once a year! What denomination is that? If you do not mind me asking, were you baptized in that Church, or were you baptized in another Church and then changed your membership to that Church?

  27. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    The sabbath being made holy, you do not follow, but Sunday being the designated day of worship by the Catholic church you do? Christmas? Have you ever missed a Christmas? Truly if a person wanted to celebrate a more likely day of our Lord’s birth it would be the Day of Atonement. That would suit the time given and the memorial of the day.

    You and I differ brother by tradition. I follow God’s tradition as given to Israel because I have been adopted into his house the Israel of God. You follow the two great commandments, but do not keep sabbath replacing it with Sunday. I follow the two great commandments and all the law that hangs from them.

    One has to sincerely ask oneself if they believe Jesus Christ and his apostles broke any of God’s law. We are asked to follow Christ. We can only do this by becoming like him. Is this by breaking law?

    When the law is in the heart, does not the law become a part of us and therefor not the law anymore because we do it? If we break the law, we become lawbreakers and therefor put ourselves under the law and by all right. The law indeed cannot save us, but do we break it because we cannot be saved by it?

    The law of Moses is the law of God. The children of Israel did not wish to hear God directly out of fear.

    Communion is with Christ daily. Not a ritual performed once a week.

    In answer to your last question, I have not been baptised into any of man’s churches, but in God’s. The baptism is in the heart by the Holy Ghost. Man’s church will remain divided until they realize the truth and finally begin following God. I cannot change my membership into another because there is no other.

    God bless you brother.

  28. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    You are breaking my heart: you may have already broken it.

    We do not worship the same God!

    You have created a god in your own mind! A god that tells you that you do not sin. A god that tells you it is not necessary to be baptized into the Christ! A god that tells you it is only necessary to do nothing, one day a week, and call it The Sabbath and then the rest of the Law is not necessary!

    The God that I worship tells me (1 John 1:8 NIV) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

    The God that I worship tells me (John 3:5 NIV) “Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

    The God that I worship tells me (Deu 6:25 NIV) “And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

    The God that I worship tells me (Gal 3:10&11 NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

    The God that I worship tells me (Gal 3:13 NIV) “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.””

    You have not accepted these quotes from the God of the universe, because they differ from your imaginary god.

    I thought that you were my brother in Christ, but you are only my brother in Adam.

    By refusing to acknowledge your sin, you are claiming that you do not need a Savior, because one without sin would indeed need no Savior.

    You say that you are going beyond Jesus, to learn even more, but you have not reached Jesus, or the understanding of Jesus, so you cannot forage ahead of what you have not reached.

    If you examine yourself closely I am sure that you will see that you sin. That is, if you do so in truth. When you see that you do indeed sin you will understand that you need a Savior, because it is sin that separates us from God. (Isa 59:2 NIV) “But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear”

    If you come to your senses and ask God for a Savior you will allow yourself to be baptized. (Mat 3:15 NIV) “Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.” It is necessary to fulfill all righteousness!”

    Through Peter, God says, (Acts 2:38&39 NIV) “Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

    I have much more that I could say, but you do not have the Spirit that is given when one is baptized and therefore you cannot understand.

    I do not say any of these things to hurt you. If you will consider what I have said you will judge yourself and find yourself guilty and in need of the Savior.

    If not then, (1 John 1:8 – 10 NIV) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

    If you will not do this, then you will break my heart, but more importantly you will break God’s heart.

  29. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    You have ineffectively twisted all of my words and moreso my inner heart. You need to go back and read what I said.

    I never said I was without sin. Not even once nor implied it. I never said baptism was not necessary but that I have not been baptised into man’s church, only Christ and his church.

    Brother. Broken heart? Mine is sick from reading your words. Absolute lies. I can’t even finish reading, but I will try again later. I don’t know how you have twisted what you have read of my words, but very twisted they are. I agree with all that you have said other than what you say that I have said. My agreement is with God’s Word.

    When I do not keep sabbath, I disobey God. Plain and simple and I am not only communing with God once a week. I do it everyday in my heart, with my spirit.

    Take some time and go back and read. Then please correct your error. Thank you.

  30. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I did go back and read what you said. I do not believe you understand what you said!

    You said, “You see, I cannot break the law because I faithfully follow it knowing it is correct”. If you claim that you do not break the law, then you claim to be without sin. All sin is lawlessness.

    You also say, in the same paragraph, “I also will not turn back to sin”. Then, in your last comment, you said, “I never said I was without sin. Not even once nor implied it”! Yes you did.

    In the same paragraph, you said, in part, “I am not stopping at Christ’s sacrifice for the world”. Jesus did not die for the world, He died for His people, but everyone in this world are not His people (Mat 1:21).

    If one has not been baptized into Christ, then how can they claim Him as Savior? If you ask me, to refuse baptism is to deny Christ, and if one denies Christ, then He will deny them.

    Jesus received the Holy Spirit after He was baptized by John, and He said it was proper to fulfill all righteousness. If it was proper for the Son of God, then how much more proper could it be for His people?

    If even Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit, until He was baptized, then how could we have the Spirit, if we have not been baptized, and how could the Holy Spirit baptize one, in the heart, if He was not in their heart?

    You do not understand that the law was given to show everyone that they could not obey it: that we need mercy because we cannot live up to God’s standard.

    Consider (1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV) “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”

    And (Rom 3:19-20 NIV) “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

    It would indeed be a good thing to obey the law, because it is God’s standard. However, no one can follow the law. In order to follow the law one must obey all of the law (Gal 3:10 NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.””

    If one is not counted with the people that Jesus came to save, they must rely on the law to save them and they must do everything written in the book of Leviticus. Even though you claim that you do not break the law, if you do not do everything written in Leviticus, you do break the law, and if you have not been baptized into Jesus, you have no Savior.

  31. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I am extremely disappointed that you have taken what I have written so out of context, but actually not surprised. Take this example:

    1 John 3:3-6 KJV
    (3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    (4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    (5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    (6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    When I asked you to go back and read, I actually should have just ask you to think about all of the conversations that we have had in the past and then ask yourself if you believe what you are accuse me of. If you want to take everything literal, then take 1 John literal too. There are many more examples I am sure you are aware of, but I will none then less defend myself against your outrageous accusation; When I say I don’t sin, it means I don’t intentionally do it knowing I can ask forgiveness. If I intentionally sin, knowing it wrong, I ask for the strength to overcome. Which always arrives.

    Regarding baptism: I never said I was not baptised. I said I have not been baptised into man’s church, but into Jesus Christ. If that is difficult to understand, let me explain; Most churches baptise new members into “their church” and “their interpretation” of scripture. If you go against what “they” say, a member is promptly expelled. When you were baptised, were you baptised into a certain church like the Protestant or into Christ? Again you have taken what I have said way out of context.

    The material law written in stone cannot be followed because material mind is enmity against God. Spiritual law can be because it is love for God written in the heart.

    Brother. I know you don’t want to follow sabbath. Nobody is pushing you to do so. Why keep pointing the finger at me? Am I the bad guy because I believe that obeying God is the correct thing to do?

    I pray you understand

  32. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I would like to try and explain again my understanding and I do this because I believe it is important that we try our best not to sin. We can’t do that, if we blatantly break the law.

    We can’t be justified by the law, because it is by the law that we have become guilty. Romans 3:19-20,,

    Carnal man has made God’s law a bad thing. God’s law is reality is good living advice.

    Paul was teaching that the Jews were imposing the law as a means to salvation, but it is only by the law that we know sin. The law therefor cannot save us. It only makes us become aware of our wrong. It is impossible to be justified by the law because it is by the law that we have become guilty. When the law is imposed on us, we rebel because we are carnal. Is there then no law?

    When we learn to love, we learn the law in spirit. We learn that it is righteousness and we therefor are no longer “under the law”. Do we break the law? If we do, we put ourselves back under the law. The law is for lawbreakers. Do we do the law? Yes, “if you love me, keep my commandments”. The law is spiritual not carnal. The carnal is for teaching and practice that we may grow and become spiritual. Is there then no law? The law is love. Love is the law. God is love. Indeed there is law. The law is doing what is right by faith in God and that doesn’t mean that righteousness came by law, but only the awareness of it. There is law. The law is love.

    Deu_4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
    Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
    Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
    Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
    Hab_1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
    Rom_2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
    Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Rom_9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    Rom_10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    Php_3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    2Pe_2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

    Again, I pray you understand. I am better for this study with you.

    God Bless.

  33. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    You say, “Brother. I know you don’t want to follow sabbath. Nobody is pushing you to do so. Why keep pointing the finger at me? Am I the bad guy because I believe that obeying God is the correct thing to do?”

    Well, you do not really listen to me. I said that it is not possible to follow the Sabbath. You are correct if you mean that I do not want to follow your sabbath, as it is only a seventh day: not The Sabbath.

    You say, “Nobody is pushing you to do so”, but you are pushing me! How can you say, with a straight face, nobody is pushing me? Well, maybe you are laughing, I do not really know.

    You came here, I did not go to you, and you came time after time, always with the same message. That is I should do as you do and when I disagree with you, you ignore the Scripture that I quote to support my understanding.

    Your ideas do not agree with the Word of God and when they do not, you ignore the verses that show you wrong.

    As an example you believe that God has entered His rest and when I quote (John 5:17 NIV) “Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working”, which shows He has yet to enter His rest, you just quote Genesis 2:2&3 and ignore John 5:17! Ask yourself ‘Is every verse in the Bible true?’ If your answer is yes, then how can you ignore John 5:17? The truth is that you do not understand how both verses are true and so you just ignore the verses that you cannot explain.

    Here is another verse that you ignore, because it does not fit your god. (Gal 3:10 NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.””. If you rely on observing the law then you must do everything written in Leviticus! You do not do everything written in Leviticus, yet you want me to agree with you that we must observe your sabbath. You came to teach, not to learn.

    Here is another verse that you ignore and it is the most important verse for you not to ignore. (John 3:5 NIV) “Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.” You ignore the part about water, because you refuse to be baptized and this verse says that you must be.

    (Mark 11:30 NIV) “John’s baptism–was it from heaven, or from men? Tell me!”

    Well, tell me. If you believe it came from God, then do it, and if you believe it did not, then do you believe God? All of what God has said, or only what you want to believe?

    You did not come to me to learn, but to teach. You have painted yourself into a corner. Your paint is your pride and you would have to walk all over your pride to go to a Church on Sunday, the first day of the week, and ask to be baptized.

    You say that the Spirit has baptized you, but even Jesus did not have the Spirit before He was baptized. (Mat 3:15&16 NIV) “Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness. Then John consented. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.” Does God love you more than Jesus that He would give you His Spirit, when you have not done what must be done to fulfill all righteousness?

    I see your problem. It would be a very humbling experience for you to ask to be baptized, but that is what God requires; that you humble yourself (Psa 149:4 NIV) “For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.”

    Creationwitness, I am talking to a dead man. No wonder you do not understand me! You are dead in your sins, but you could have life. If you do not come to your senses, you will surely suffer the second death.

  34. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    Look back to your accusations and I will answer them how I read them and then you tell me who is guilty of them ok?

    I cannot push you to do anything. You have been given free choice. If you do not wish to study sabbath tell me to keep quiet or to please leave. That is also up to you. You have been part of the discussion have you not? Are you not expounding your point to me? Isn’t that the reason why we are here? Why is the finger always point at me? If I do wrong, let’s talk about it and let God be the judge. Show me I am incorrect and I will be on my knees in repentance, but I am not going to blindly follow man. I need some reasoning.

    I call it sabbath because God calls it sabbath. Yes, it is the seventh day, but God refers to it time and again as his sabbath. He also gave it to man. I follow God. Yes, it is also my sabbath. Thank you Lord God.

    Now you say my idea does not agree with God because you quote one verse being John 3:17? I have already given you my understanding of that verse but let’s look again at Genesis 2: 2-3,

    Genesis 2:2-3 KJV
    (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    (3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    How many times does it say God ended his work? How many times that he rested? How many times that he rested from his work? Keep counting:

    Exodus 20:11 KJV
    (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Exodus 31:17 KJV
    (17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

    Hebrews 4:4 KJV
    (4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    Now you know my understanding of how John and the remaining verses fit together as I have told you more than once. You say I ignore John 3:17, but I haven’t. I understand that it is a different work. How do you understand them to fit together? My words do not fit with the Word of God? Strong accusation brother.

    Let’s look at your next accusation. Galations 3:10.

    Galatians 3:10 KJV
    (10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    It clearly says “of the works”. I am not “of the works”. I follow in faith. I am therefor not under the law because I do my best not break the law nor deem it my salvation. I do not rely on it as you accuse. How about you brother? Are you a law breaker? Can you commit adultery or murder knowing it is wrong? Why break the sabbath? Is it excluded somehow? You say the apostles changed the day and only quoted 3 verses to back it up. When I asked you to search how many times they taught on the sabbath, what did you say? Even Paul our beloved has his opinion of the law. Was he a sabbath breaker?

    Acts 24:14 KJV
    (14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

    Why do you continue to accuse me of refusing to be baptised? I have told you again and again that I have been baptised into Jesus Christ. Not a church of man. Is that difficult to understand? Is it required for me to say that I was immersed in water? Yes, by water. I never asked you if you were immersed. The real question is if you become a lawbreaker does that make baptism, unbaptism?

    Pride? Haven’t I said that I am in church daily when possible? Yes, that includes Sunday. Why should I exclude it? Now how about yourself? Do you obey God’s word or man’s?

    You go on to quote about not having the Spirit until you are baptised, but you exclude:

    Acts 10:44-48 KJV
    (44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    And what about Cornelius and family? And even Paul himself? One needs to be baptised before receiving the Holy Ghost? Really? This is your teaching?

    Now you accuse me of being dead? It is wise to be careful with your words. As you judge.

    2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV
    (5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    I pray for you brother. I pray you have better words in the future to speak with your brothers.

  35. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    (Titus 3:9-11 NIV) “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

  36. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    Nearly a year now and I am going to add a bit to our last conversation.

    First off for anyone reading, they should read all of Titus chapter 3 and they will surely understand that Paul is admonishing the unruly Titus 3:8 “they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works” and not vis-versa.

    Second, we need to understand that by following the two great commandments, we do not blatantly disregard or break the others:

    Mat 22:40  (KJV) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 

    You have made it clear that you disobey God’s teaching of the sabbath by saying that it wasn’t given to you. I would go back and read Genesis if that is the case and try to reconcile why we are here.

    Mar 2:27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

    Third, I am not telling anyone that following the law is going to save them. That is impossible because without the sacrifice made by our Lord Jesus Christ, we would remain in our sin. It is by our repentance of sin and God’s mercy and loving forgiveness that we have redemption by the blood shed by Jesus Christ. So, what I am saying is that we should obey God’s law. We can’t obey in disobedience. I quote Timothy:

    1Ti 1:9  “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient”

    When a person follows the teaching of sabbath they are going to find that they put themself in tune with God. If it was good enough for my Lord, it is certainly good enough for me:

    Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

    Basically what the bible is teaching me is that I cannot follow God if I am seeking excuses why I cannot obey him.

    Brother. I pray all is well with you.

  37. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    In have used this illustration in the past and it fits our interchange of words perfectly.

    Picture a very small island, lets say 50 Feet across. It has a moat around it filled with piranha and alligators so that no one can cross over to the island. In the middle of the island is a stop sign. It is unlike any stop sign anyone has ever seen and many people would like to see it better, to understand it and know all about it. These people stand around it, viewing it and speaking to each other about it, asking each other if they see the same image as they do.

    There is a man that stands right in front of the sign and he notices another man that is standing right behind the sign. He shouts to the man behind the sign and asks him if he sees the shape of the sign and the man on the other shouts back that he does see the shape. They both agree about the shape, size, height, and most other physical attributes of the sign. Then the man in front of the sign asks the man behind the sign if he sees the word “stop” that is written on the sign. Of course the man behind the sign shouts back, ‘There is nothing written on the sign’. Then there begins a great argument between the two men.

    You see, the two men are looking at the same sign and they are exactly correct when they explain what they see, but because of the angle of their view they do not see the same thing. If they would only go to the man on the other side and then view the sign from that position, they could agree and end the argument. However, if either man will not budge the argument will never end.

    The Bible is like the sign. One cannot get close enough see it absolutely. There are many things about the Bible that many can agree with and there are many things that are not agreed on, because of the angle of understanding. If either man is unwilling to view the Bible from the other man’s angle there is no end to the argument.

    We have this same problem. I have seen the Bible from your angle. I know about the Law of Moses. I know that the rituals that God set in place all pointed to the first coming of Jesus the Messiah. Once He came there was no more need of those rituals. Just as the Passover Lamb was a ritual that pointed toward Jesus, the Sabbath was a ritual that pointed toward the fact that one could not do any work for their salvation. The Messiah has come and we are now in the seventh of God’s days. The seven days in Geneses are God’s days of time, not man’s days of time. Three days had past before God created the sun and moon and they were created to mark the days of man. Again, the Messiah has come and we are now in the seventh of God’s days.

    Every one of our days, man’s days, is now in the seventh of God’s days and there is no work that will save. Only the belief that Jesus was sacrificed for our salvation is required. Any work that is added to that statement would change it. We are saved by the work of God only: not by the work of God plus the work of man. To obey the Sabbath is to perform a ritual and that is a work of man.

    Forgive me friend, but it seems to me that your feet are stuck in concrete and you cannot move; actually you will not move. You see the Bible from your view only.

    You say that Jesus is our Lord! But you said that you have not been baptized. If you refuse to do what Jesus said was necessary for “us” (Not just for Him) to do to fulfill all righteousness (Mat 3:15), then how can you say that He is your Lord? A Lord is someone that should be obeyed and someone that has the authority to punish those who will not obey.

    Why do you refuse to do what is necessary to fulfill all righteousness?

    You strike me as someone who believes himself to be an expert in the Law. Please read and ponder Luke 7:29&30.
    (Luke 7:29-30 NIV) (All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

    The Word of God tells us to avoid controversies and quarrels about the Law, because they are unprofitable and useless (Titus 3:9). And once again God is proved correct. However, I will not follow the advice written in Titus, because if I really care for you, and I do, then how could I have nothing more to do with you?

    Ask yourself ‘Am I acting like a Pharisee when I accuse a child of God (me) of violating the Sabbath?’ and then read Matthew 12:1-8.

    (Mat 12:1-8 NIV) At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread–which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

    Those that have been baptized into Jesus are His disciples and I am one. Aren’t you doing exactly what the Pharisees did? Did Jesus say they were right, or did He say they condemned the innocent? Just so you might understand, everyone that has accepted Jesus is His priest and therefore can desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent.

    You have zeal without knowledge.
    (Rom 10:1-2 NIV) Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

    (Prov 19:2 NIV) It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.

    I was raised to believe that men do not weep. It is a sign of weakness, so it takes a great tragedy to overcome my childhood teaching. I wept when my mother died and I wept when my love rejected me and I am close to tears for you.

    Please do not reject God’s purpose for yourself (Luke 7:30): go repent (change) and ask a Christian to baptize you. Then we will both be able to agree that God’s way is right.

  38. creationwitness says:

    Hi astudent,

    Let me first say that it is good to hear from you. It has been some time since you posted anything. My prayer has been answered that your nor my time has yet come. I can truthfully say I find our discussions of great value.

    It is curious and a perfect example that you use the stop sign in your analogy. Stop meaning to cease. Sabbath of course, meaning the same.

    Yes, I agree that the sabbath is a ritual and I also agree and know very well it cannot save anyone. I never said it would. You put words in my words 🙂

    Simply put: It is faith in God and his word that is going to lead to salvation. We don’t show our faith toward God by breaking law or being disobedient in any way. If I have led you to believe that salvation is by sabbath, forgive me. That was not my intention nor my thought.

    The sabbath is set apart from other ritual. Can you name another ritual that was added to the Ten Commandments? Have you ever asked why it was commanded? If God commanded us to follow sabbath are we not being disobedient when we don’t listen? The sabbath being made for man, was it not given to all of us?

    I know your reasoning. It is inconvenient to dedicate a whole day to do God’s work. Don’t you think that might be one of the reasons it is there? The people of the old testament never followed it because it took away from their own doings. They never stopped because they got caught up in this world doing what pleased them instead of God. I would say some people don’t even need the sabbath, because everyday of their life is dedicated to doing God’s work instead of their own. That might be you, but until I can achieve that, I obey God and follow the his sabbath.

    Not baptized? Who is baptized? The guy that has been dipped in water or the guy that has repented of his sin, been dipped in water, proclaims faith in Jesus Christ and obeys God? No one is baptized by being disobedient.

    I pray for you brother. No tears here. I trust God will teach. Follow God and remember that faith without works is dead. Will Jesus find any faith?

    Romans 7:12-14 KJV
    (12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    (13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    (14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Luke 4:16 KJV
    (16) And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

    James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  39. creationwitness says:

    Hi astudent,

    I would like to share some more verses with you that I believe may help to explain my understanding on this subject better. I have read these verses many times, but today I noticed that they are very applicable to our conversation. Please bare with me brother….

    In the following verses Paul is teaching how we should treat one another. The second great commandment, if you will:

    Rom 13:8-10 KJV
    (8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    (9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    (10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    I am sure you will notice he is has listed the commandments regarding how we treat others with one exception and that is obedience to parents. But now apply this to the first great commandment of loving God, not making idols, not bowing down to them and of course the sabbath. Don’t you think it would be wise to obey all of God’s commandments? This brings me to the next scripture:

    Mat 21:28-32 KJV
    (28) But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
    (29) He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
    (30) And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
    (31) Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
    (32) For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

    If we repent and confess our sins in baptism agreeing to submit to God, what are we doing if we then turn and disobey? Isn’t that considered unbaptism if there is such a thing? Next verses:

    Mat 5:17-20 KJV
    (17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Notice also in the above dissertation that Jesus mentions breaking the least commandment and that actually that person does make it into the kingdom of heaven? I was always curious about that.

    So, how can a person reconcile all of those verses by saying the sabbath has been changed to Sunday or that the ten commandments were given only to Israel or I am not under the law? Are those not just lame denials of what is true? Why is it so difficult for today’s Christians to do God’s will? The law is spiritual and righteous.

    I think about another question as well and that is that if God gave me a chance to spend any one day of the week with him and he would make sure that I had the day clear of any other obligation, which day would I choose? You already know my answer. What is yours?

    Rom 13:11-14 KJV
    (11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
    (12) The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
    (13) Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
    (14) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

    Rom 7:25 KJV
    (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    With God’s strength of Spirit we can overcome the fleshly desires. Truthfully brother. I would say that the above verses were surely written for an occasion such as this. I sincerely pray you see God’s light. Surely there is a blessing to be discovered.

  40. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    You said “Yes, I agree that the Sabbath is a ritual and I also agree and know very well it cannot save anyone. I never said it would. You put words in my words :)”

    Sorry, I did not mean to put words in your words. Here we would say ‘Put words in your mouth’; I kind of like your way of saying it.

    Actually, the Sabbath is part of the Law of Moses and not only can it not save, but it condemns. (2 Cor 3:9 NIV) If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

    Please read all of Second Corinthians chapter three. Pay special attention to (2 Cor 3:9 NIV) “If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!” It can be seen that the ministry that condemns men is the Law of Moses (written on stone (Verse 7)).

    (2 Cor 3:15&16 NIV) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

    You have not turned to the Lord and a veil covers your heart, therefore you cannot understand.

    I ask you a very important question and you ignored it! Why do YOU refuse to do what is necessary to fulfill all righteousness? (Mat 3:15 NIV) Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

    You say,” Not baptized? Who is baptized?” Well, you are not. What is it to you if someone else is, or is not baptized? Don’t you understand that to refuse baptism is to refuse the Messiah?

    Baptism is not being ‘dipped in water’: it is a burial. When one is baptized they die to the world, are buried with the Messiah, and are raise into the second life; real life. Then they receive the Holy Spirit to teach them all things. The Messiah and the person are no longer two, but one.

    (1 John 2:27 NIV) As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him.

    I do not wish to anger you, but I must tell the truth. Your eyes are veiled. You obey the ritual that is part of the Law of Moses, and the Law of Moses only leads to death, but you refuse to obey the ritual that leads to life!

    The Law of Moses was given to show everyone that salvation cannot be earned. You do not keep all of the Law; it is not possible. If you depend on obeying the law to save, then do you obey all of it? You must obey ALL of the Law.

    You say that “the Sabbath is a ritual and I also agree and know very well it cannot save anyone. I never said it would”. Well actually if one could obey ALL of the Law then that part of the Law, along with the rest of it, could save. (Lev 18:5 NIV) Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.

    (Deu 28:15 NIV) “However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you.” Read the rest of the chapter and understand that is just what God did to those who did not obey ALL of the Law: He still is doing those things to Israel.

    Consider Hitler along with Romans 13:1, (Rom 13:1 NIV) “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” God knew what Hitler would do and that is why He established him. God was, and still is angry with those who do not follow all of His commands. Israel has not changed and accepted the Messiah and God has not changed either.

    If anyone sins, even unintentionally he must slaughter a bull and dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of it seven times before the LORD, in front of the curtain of the sanctuary. Please do not say that you have never sinned and therefore this does not apply to you. You say that we must obey the Law of Moses: do you? Of course not, there isn’t even a curtain of the sanctuary any more. (Mat 27:50&51 NIV) “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.”

    You say that I am doing wrong, because I do not observe the Sabbath, even though I have claimed that I have, but you do not understand. Why not include that I have never slaughtered a bull, for my sins, as well? The man who doesn’t is not obeying God. You say that you obey God: do you?

    I must admit that your comments are bittersweet. They cause me to look at Scripture from a different angle and that is very good, but it is madding that I cannot get you to look at Scripture from my angle: even when I know your eyes are veiled: Scripture tells me they are.

    creationwitness, I do love you. Please, for my sake, if not for your own, turn to the Messiah, change and do what is necessary to fulfill all righteousness. Then you will be able to see Scripture from my angle as well as yours and we will be able to reach an agreement.

    Well actually I do not really want agreement about all things, because I want your views from your angle, because if we agreed on everything there would be nothing different to consider. The truth is I write blogs and comments to receive comments from a different angle: Kind of selfish, isn’t it?

    Your adamant claim that we should observe the Sabbath has caused me to think about it and to ask God why He created the Sabbath. I have to admit that I had not questioned God about why He created it and what it means. Of course there is a meaning and purpose for it, there is always a spiritual message in all of the rituals that God gave Israel. Because I asked and because it pleasures God to reveal understanding He has blessed me with even more insight. You are correct there was a blessing to be discovered! Perhaps I will write a post on the Sabbath.

    Isn’t God wonderful?

  41. creationwitness says:

    Hi astudent,

    It’s lengthy. Please take your time to consider the following:

    2 Cor 3:9 – It condemns when? When a person follows it in the flesh, not spirit.

    (2Co 3:8 KJV) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    (2Co 3:9 KJV) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

    The veil is taken away because we walk in the spirit of faith, the ministration of righteousness not flesh. We cannot walk with God in the flesh. The new covenant is written in the heart. That is why Jesus says “one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law”. God’s law is not a fleshly law. That is why it is referred to as the Law of Moses and not of God. God’s law is spiritual.

    (Jer 31:33 KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    (Mar 7:6 KJV) He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
    (Rom 2:15 KJV) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    (1Co 2:9 KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    (2Co 3:3 KJV) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
    (Heb 8:10 KJV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    (Heb 10:16 KJV) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    Reconcile those verses with your understanding. When you can do so, you will begin to understand.

    Next:

    You say “You have not turned to the Lord and a veil covers your heart, therefore you cannot understand.”, ….. but it is you that remains in misunderstanding. You remain in the flesh so you can only understand what the flesh knows. Walk in the spirit through faith and you will understand.

    I didn’t answer your question about baptism because you will not understand that you remain in unbaptism.

    Your understanding of the ritual of baptism is correct except for one point. A person can receive the Holy Spirit prior to baptism and that comes by having faith in the redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ. That is why the angel comes to Cornelius in Acts 10. Cornelius only needed to hear the gospel of Christ. He had already repented.

    Next: You are wrong. I do not obey the ritual. I obey God’s direction by his ten Words. Obeying in righteousness. That cannot be accomplished in the flesh.

    1Ti 1:8-10 KJV
    (8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
    (9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    (10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    You remain in sin brother because you believe there is no law. There is only law for the lawless. The disobedient. Not the righteous.

    To your next statement I do not obey the law in the flesh. That is impossible as you seem to understand, but that doesn’t mean you can break the law with impudence just because you have been dipped in water. You must repent of your sin. Read the following as one chapter:

    Rom 5:20-21 KJV
    (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Rom 6:1-18 KJV
    (1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    (2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    (3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    (12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    (13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    (14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    (15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    (16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    (17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    (18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    If you continue to study with all of this in mind, you will begin to understand. All of the bible verses must fit together with each other to find the truth. If you find contradiction, it is because the understanding is incorrect.

    Rom 8:1-6 KJV
    (1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    A person cannot be spiritually minded by walking around sinning in the flesh. We are now the sacrifice. Repentance brings us back to God. If we sin, we repent and we are forgiven because God knows that we know our wrong. He also knows that because we understand, that we will eventually follow him without the sin in the spirit. We will overcome. Remind you of something? Revelation perhaps? He that overcometh? It is only mentioned seven times. Overcoming the flesh.

    1Jn 2:1-11 KJV
    (1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    (3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    (7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
    (8) Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
    (9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
    (10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
    (11) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

    The slaughter of animals is the law of the flesh. What is the meaning of “take up your cross” ?

    (Mat 10:37 KJV) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    (Mat 10:38 KJV) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    (Mat 10:39 KJV) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

    We must commit ourselves to Christ through our death in the flesh. This world can’t be what is important anymore. Dedication is what God wills of us. When that takes place a full baptism in the Spirit occurs. We are the sacrifice.

    God bless you brother. I pray an awakening occur for you as it did also for me. I can thank you for that because you led me to my current understanding, but we both know it is only by the grace of God. I remain in gratitude to you nonetheless. You have been most patient.

  42. creationwitness says:

    A true baptism? Not just a ritual. A celebration!

  43. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I am miserable. I have disregarded the advice of my God. He clearly said, “avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law”, but I did not do so. He even told me why, “because these are unprofitable and useless.”

    If I could defend myself at all, I would say that I was only trying to help someone, but I am sure that God would say to me, ‘Did I not tell you, and even prove to you, that iron cannot sharpen iron? And I would have to say, and do say, “Yes”.

    I spent seven years on this blog trying to convince others that iron cannot sharpen iron and never convinced anyone: not one! But if I would have succeeded, even one time, I would have proved God wrong. Of course no one can prove God wrong.

    A long time ago, when I first turned to God, I asked Him to teach me all things, because I thought I could not do what my God wanted me to do, if I did not know what He wanted me to do. I now understand that even when He tells me clearly what He wants, I do not do it!

    I am no different from anyone else. (Rom 11:32 NIV) “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” Jesus has yet to return and make all things right, so I am still bound to disobedience. Thank God that He sent His only son as a perfect sacrifice for my miserable soul.

    If I have to stand before God and be judged I will say, “I am unworthy”. However, I know that He sent Jesus to die in my place and He paid for my sins: all of my sins.”

    God help me if I was to say “We are now the sacrifice”, but I am sure He would not help me. After all of the pain and suffering that Jesus endured for me, I am quite sure that God would be about as angry as He could possibly be: and rightly so, if I said that I was my own sacrifice.

    Two times you have said that we are the sacrifice! Please, don’t you know that God, as well as I, have heard you? If you could possibly be correct, then Jesus died for nothing! Do you think that God would be happy if you stood before Him and said, ‘I am my own sacrifice’? That would be claiming that His one and only son came to earth and died for nothing!

    I did not heed the advice of my God and because I did not I have caused you to claim that you are your own sacrifice. You said that I led you to your current understanding and my soul cries out to my God, “God forgive me”. Please, God forgive me.

    By the way, you are wrong when you say, “Cornelius only needed to hear the gospel of Christ.” Cornelius was one of those who was in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord had commanded Peter to tell them, and he heard the gospel that Peter was preaching, but he still was commanded to be baptized in water and in the name of Jesus the Christ. Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”

    You rightly said, “He had already repented”, but the verse is “Repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38) It is repent and then be baptized, not just repent.

    Please stop trying to earn your own salvation. It is not possible. The Law of Moses was given to show it is not possible. It was not given as a way to show oneself as pure, but impure. In order to be saved by following the Law of Moses one must obey all of the Law of Moses. You would have to tithe and that is no longer possible, because God has not said where He will be for the Tithe feast. That is just one of the commands of the Law of Moses that cannot be fulfilled, but there are many more that cannot be fulfilled.

    When I read your comments I think of (2 Cor 3:14-16 NIV) “But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.” Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.” (2 Cor 4:3&4 NIV) “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

    You still have not answered my question “Why do you refuse to do what is necessary to fulfill all righteousness?”

  44. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I understand your viewpoint, but your viewpoint fails to reconcile such verses as found in James:

    Jamess 2:17-18 KJV
    (17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    Some say that James should not have been added to our bible, but that was only because they did not understand how it fits. James is not telling us that we need to follow the works of law to be saved. He is telling us if we have true faith and not just mouthed out, then we will actually produce good works of righteousness.

    Your belief seems that you can continue in sin even knowingly committing sin without even attempting to overcome it. That is why we need to make sacrifice of ourselves from joining in this world of sin:

    Rom 12:1-2 KJV
    (1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    (2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    If your thinking is that you can sin with impudence:

    Mat 5:20-23 KJV
    (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    (21) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    (22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    (23) Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

    John 5:14 KJV
    (14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

    John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law. Not destroy it (Matthew 5:17)

    Brother, if you cannot reconcile scripture, it is only because you have misunderstanding of it.

    About my baptism? I have answered you many times, but you are not listening. Why do you hold this ritual over my head? Is that law now? But didn’t you say we only need faith? Don’t contradict yourself.

    Baptism is in the heart. Not water. Water is the ritual of the cleansing that takes place once we have truly repented and received the Holy Ghost. That doesn’t happen with a water dipping. But just so you know and it ceases to bother you; I repented and was baptized in water many years ago and yes, full submersion if that helps you.

    A few more verses to leave you with:

    Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    True repentance is required. Not lip service. Read Abraham for the best example of true faith with works.

    Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    They didn’t have any faith and continued in sin. Producing good fruit shows faith. Good works?

    1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    It is not me that is blind and walks in darkness. I keep his commandments.

    1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    God’s Holy Spirit gives a person the strength to stop sinning. We become dead to sin as Paul puts it. We overcome. How many times is that repeated?

    I am sorry brother. I am not of the type that believes I can just run around blatantly sinning with impudence. If I did, it would clearly show my unfaith. A man with faith, shows his faith.

    Cheers brother. I continue to pray for you.

  45. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    I now see something that I didn’t not see before. You keep saying that I am trying to earn my own salvation and you believe I am trying to do that by work. Well, that is partially true and partially false. I know that salvation only comes by faith in Jesus Christ. I also know that to show that faith, I should do good works like loving God and loving my neighbor. But I cannot do that work if I do not obey God and if I do not obey God then I am showing that I actually have no faith.

    And by the way, it is not my work that I do. I cease doing my own pleasure one day per week and dedicate that day to my Father doing his good works leaving behind this world’s distractions to focus on his. I find true blessing in doing so and would have it no other way. Day by day I am growing stronger. Day by day I do less and less of my own work and more and more of his. The tiny mustard seed is growing if you will.

    One strong belief I have is that by obeying God and doing his work instead of my hearts desire, I am becoming stronger in his Spirit and this doing this world’s bidding doesn’t make sense any more. I pray we could all have a similar blessing and that is what following the sabbath has taught me by his Spirit.

    So do you need it? That is your call. We all have free choice.

    God bless you astudent

  46. creationwitness says:

    Something additional I now see:

    Faith comes by hearing, but after finding faith in the hearing what do we normally do first? We repent and are baptized. Those are our first works of faith. Without them we have shown no real faith. So are works required for salvation? My answer is yes, because without the works of righteousness, you have no faith just as James says. But works alone cannot include salvation because faith without works is dead.

    It all makes better sense now:

    1John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 

    God bless you astudent

  47. creationwitness says:

    astudent,,

    Please forgive me for my continued explanation, but I feel it is necessary so you can understand my perspective. Not that my perspective is important, but you have been putting “words in my words”. Things I have not said, but maybe you feel it is implied.

    I am not saying we must follow the law to obtain salvation. We both know that that is impossible. God gave us free will in the Garden of Eden and we, as man, failed. We were therefor put under the condemnation of the law which the penalty of breaking the law is death. It was understood by God that this would happen and so he gave us his only begotten Son and it is by faith in Jesus Christ and the cleansing of sin thereby nullifying the penalty of death that we can continue to learn his ways. If we are dead, we cannot learn.

    When we have understood the consequences and have finally repented, God gives us his Holy Spirit to guide, teach and give us strength. He writes his law in our hearts. His law is part of his character and when we are given his Spirit, we begin to learn how to become like him.

    You see, our understanding is the same. It only differs in how we understand it. The written law in stone is done away with because it is impossible for us to comply with it in the flesh. Once it is written in our hearts though, we take it on as our character.

    I am pretty sure you don’t run around lying, cheating and stealing from others. It is only the sabbath commandment that you do not obey and that is because you don’t feel you need to. I understand that and that is your choice. I am not trying to take that away from you. What I am trying to do is explain that you are missing a blessing that God has given us to learn how to become near to him. The sabbath takes us away from this world for one day each week to be close to and learn more of our Father. We can concentrate and focus our minds on Him and forget what is outside “money, sex, shopping, texting, partying etc.”

    Truthfully I believe that is why most people disobey sabbath. It takes a day of fun out of their life. What they do not realize is that they would find true, lasting joy in their lives if they did. Without the sabbath, when the day is finished, we normally are left with the pain of the sins we have committed regardless of what they are. There cannot be any joy found in that and the fun never lasts.

    The law is Spiritual. Always has and always will be. This is what I have been trying and failing to say. I am learning to follow God’s Spirit.

    I pray that you will begin to understand the perspective that I have been led to and not try to add anything to it. I also must apologize to you because I am not the best at explaining this clearly and that is because I never understood it clear enough to explain. Thanks to you and our discussions that this has been made possible. I thank you, but truly I thank God. He knows that.

    Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    God bless us with understanding, patience and everything else we need to learn of Him. Cheers Brother 🙂

  48. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    I am sure that you mean well: so do I.

    We agree upon most understanding of Scripture. I know that I sound harsh most of the time, but if I could be clearer by not sounding harsh I would do so. I believe that what is said is more important than how it is said. So please try not to be offended by how I attempt to comment. The error is mine and I accept it.

    No, you have not answered my question.

    The question was and is, “Why do you refuse to do what is necessary to fulfill all righteousness?”

    It appears that I have not asked the question clear enough, so let me try to parse the question so that you can better understand exactly what I asked.

    (Mat 3:13 – 15 NIV) Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

    Try to get a mental picture. Jesus and John were standing by the Jordan River and Jesus asked John to baptize Him. Jesus wanted to go down into the WATER with John and have John lower Him under the WATER and then raise Him up out of the WATER.

    John, like you, thought it was not necessary, but Jesus said, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” We know that Jesus would not lead us astray so we know that WATER BAPTISM is necessary to fulfill all righteousness.

    Jesus was not speaking about baptism of, or by the Spirit. He was speaking about WATER baptism. It is WATER baptism that is necessary to fulfill all righteousness.

    That is the baptism that I ask you about: not about baptism of the Spirit. The baptism which you refuse is WATER BAPTISM.

    It is WATER BAPTISM that is necessary to fulfill all righteousness and the question is, “Why do you refuse to do what is necessary to fulfill all righteousness?”

    Perhaps it would help if I asked a slightly different way, “Why do you refuse water baptism, when Jesus said it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness?”

  49. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    To quote what I have stated earlier. Please read carefully the last sentence of my quotation below. I do not wish to go back even further to show you that I have stated this more than once.

    “About my baptism? I have answered you many times, but you are not listening. Why do you hold this ritual over my head? Is that law now? But didn’t you say we only need faith? Don’t contradict yourself.

    Baptism is in the heart. Not water. Water is the ritual of the cleansing that takes place once we have truly repented and received the Holy Ghost. That doesn’t happen with a water dipping. But just so you know and it ceases to bother you; I repented and was baptized in water many years ago and yes, full submersion if that helps you.”

    Bless you astudent.

  50. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    Yes, that does help me. That greatly eases my mind. Thanks for telling me.

    I look at baptism in a different way than you do. To me it seems that baptism is necessary to, as the Bible says, “Make straight the way for the Lord”.

    I believe that God can send the Holy Spirit to a person, but the Holy Spirit cannot become one with that person, unless they are baptized. The reason is that they have sinned and their sin has to be washed away before God will become one with them. Baptism is the way that God has chosen to wash one’s sin away. We cannot invent some way that can wash our sins away: at least not some way that God would accept, so we must use the way God has created. God has no sin and it would not be right for Him to become one with someone who is not pure: it would make Him impure. We all sin, even after God’s Spirit becomes one with us. We become impure again, but that doesn’t make God impure.

    I cannot hold a ritual over your head; it is not in my power to demand that anyone do anything. I only can show, from Scripture what I believe is true. Thank God that I cannot hold anything over anyone’s head, because if I could, and did not, then I would be responsible for their salvation. As it is I am not guilty of anyone losing their salvation.

    I have thought much about baptism and have written much about the subject. I do not want to repeat everything that I understand about baptism here. If you want to understand my understanding (Ha) then search my older posts.

    You seem to believe that I sin intentionally. I do not, because even though I am free from the penalty for sin, I want to please our Father and I do not want to set a bad example.

    I am not a fan of ‘Once saved, always saved’ as some are. There are verses that say that one can return to the world and if they do they will not be accepted. So, also for that reason I try not to sin. However, I am not pure yet and I do still sin and if I were to say otherwise I believe God would remind me, (1 John 1:8 NIV) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

    I could not call baptism, water dipping. It is a ritual given to us by God and deserves my respect. If you really studied baptism, that is, what it is and why God gave us baptism, then I am quite sure you would not call it ‘water dipping’ either.

    As for repenting, I believe that repenting, in this life, for sin, never ends: it is not just a one time thing.

    I do have to laugh. If you had said that you have been baptized a long time ago, I would have approached our comments from a slightly different angle. But then neither of us would have attempted to explain our views and I for one would not have been tasked to study God’s Word from your view.

    It is good for me and I hope it is as good for you to trade comments, as know that you are a true and genuine child of God.

    Thanks for sharing.

  51. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    Long time no write and sorry. I never received any notification of your last response. Maybe due to Spiritual guidance? I believe so. Today I just wanted to paste a verse, but before I do, please let me respond to your comments above:

    When I use the term “water dipping” it is not out of any disrespect to a true baptism. It is because many of us are baptized as babies, children or adults that do not understand why the ritual was set in place. A ritual is “shadow” of what is true yes? Having said that, we must repent prior to baptism, otherwise what is the use? Dipping an unrepentant sinner into water will not save nor clean them because the heart inside remains unclean. With faith in Jesus Christ and understanding of Father’s doctrine, we can repent, be baptized and continue on in study and practice with God’s Spirit and His Law written in our heart.

    Now the verse that was revealed to me this day:

    Acts 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 

    I tend to agree! I am often seen as an heretic and I as well, believe all things (as Paul does) which are written in the law and prophets. How do I throw out the sabbath with that belief? I personally cannot do it as I can neither throw out the importance of baptism. I have read many excuses for doing so, but can only conclude that it is finely woven deception. How many quotations and other teachings from the Old Testament do we have that have been “done away with”?

    Isa 56:1  Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 

    Isa 56:2  Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 

    I pray that more of God’s children will take it to heart and obey him. Cheers!

  52. creationwitness says:

    Hi astudent,

    I pray all is well with you brother.

    In my quest to show myself that the Israel of God spoken of in the New Testament includes us Gentiles, I came across some scripture that I thought may be helpful to you and others as it has me. I think you already know where this is going, so before I go further, let me just say a few quick words; As previously stated I am well aware that following the sabbath or any other work will not save anyone. Only God and Jesus Christ can accomplish that. This is not to try and constrain anyone in any way to do anything outside of what scripture teaches. It is only to show that it is going to be helpful for us to follow all of God’s ten commandments. I said helpful because I doubt breaking any of them is going to be.

    The following is an excerpt. The whole chapter should be read for clarity because it truly outlines the “Love thy neighbor” command:

    (Lev 19:2 KJV)  Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
    (Lev 19:3 KJV)  Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

    Now of course I know how many are going to say “I am not a child of Israel”. I have to question that statement and I know that most of us are not born of the bloodline, but I will show that we are adopted into Israel through faith:

    Now we turn to the New Testament and this is more lengthy. Please bear with and make note of verse 1:16 and 1:20.

    (1Pe 1:13 KJV)  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    (1Pe 1:14 KJV)  As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
    (1Pe 1:15 KJV)  But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    (1Pe 1:16 KJV)  Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    (1Pe 1:17 KJV)  And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
    (1Pe 1:18 KJV)  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    (1Pe 1:19 KJV)  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    (1Pe 1:20 KJV)  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    (1Pe 1:21 KJV)  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
    (1Pe 1:22 KJV)  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    I know. I does not say anything about following the sabbath. I doubt that was the intention. I also doubt any of these men at this time were accused of not following the sabbath, although Jesus himself was accused of not following it properly as he never adhered to the traditions of men ie., no “work” on the sabbath etc. I quote that because to them, saving a man on sabbath was considered “work”. Ok, to continue with note on Galatians 6:16 “Israel of God”.
    (Gal 6:12 KJV)  As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
    (Gal 6:13 KJV)  For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
    (Gal 6:14 KJV)  But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    (Gal 6:15 KJV)  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    (Gal 6:16 KJV)  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    We may also wish to add following the sabbath to that, but then we would be adding to what isn’t there. And again, following the sabbath wasn’t the issue with the Jews. It was being circumcised that was the issue. Everyone “at that time” most obviously followed that sabbath I dare to say, because if they didn’t it would surely have been recorded. Ok, continue and again lengthy, with notes afterward:

    (Eph 2:8 KJV)  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    (Eph 2:9 KJV)  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    (Eph 2:10 KJV)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    (Eph 2:11 KJV)  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    (Eph 2:12 KJV)  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    (Eph 2:13 KJV)  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    (Eph 2:14 KJV)  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    (Eph 2:15 KJV)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    (Eph 2:16 KJV)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    (Eph 2:17 KJV)  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    (Eph 2:18 KJV)  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    (Eph 2:19 KJV)  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    (Eph 2:20 KJV)  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    (Eph 2:21 KJV)  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    (Eph 2:22 KJV)  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    We are saved by grace and not of works, but we were created unto good works. The “good works” come after salvation. This is why good works are allowed on the sabbath. Good works are Spiritual works. Note Ephesians 2:15 “law of commandments contained in ordinances” The word “contained is added for clarity in the original translation. Also not verse 2:19 “household of God” and verse 2:22 “through the Spirit”. Ok continue and almost done:

    (Heb 8:7 KJV)  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    (Heb 8:8 KJV)  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    (Heb 8:9 KJV)  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    (Heb 8:10 KJV)  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    (Heb 8:11 KJV)  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    (Heb 8:12 KJV)  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
    (Heb 8:13 KJV)  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    The first covenant wasn’t faulty it was because carnal man cannot follow it and if we can’t follow it, the penalty is and was death. It still is unless we have come to Christ in faith. Now the new covenant is with the “house of Israel” and the “house of Judah”.

    Brother, in conclusion I would say it may not be wise to disobey God and keep another day, other than the sabbath holy. Having said that, I would like to keep everyday holy and am trying to accomplish that now, but until I can, I keep at least God’s one holy day, holy. I pray you find it in your heart to at least consider it more deeply. The law was added because of transgression and no carnal man can follow it, but the new man in the Spirit can. The law? It is for the lawless. If we follow God we become like Him in obedience not in lawlessness. If we are in lawlessness, we are carnal and not eternal.

    We do His will. God is righteousness. God is love.

    Cheers and Blessings!

  53. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    Take a deep breath and listen. The Word of God is the Bible. The Bible is divided into two Testaments, the Old and the New. The word testament means promise. So there are two promises, the Old Promise and the New Promise. They are different Promises.

    The Old Promise was the Law of Moses and one could live by obeying the Law, but only if the Law was perfectly obeyed. (Rom 10:5 NIV) Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.”
    (Gal 3:11-12 NIV) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” In other words it was based on works, not faith.

    The Old Promise was based on works and that is the symbolism of the Sabbath. That is to say it symbolized the day was to come when no work could or can be done for salvation. It is a New Promise. God has done all the work and we can only accept God’s Sacrifice and not add anything to it. To say that we must obey the Sabbath ritual is to add something to the Sacrifice of the true Lamb of God.

    The Sabbath ritual is a part of the Old Promise. That Promise is no longer in effect.

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    The New Promise is the Gospel (good news). Jesus is the end of the law (Rom 10:4).

    God’s Word says, “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1 NIV) That is what a man does when he thinks he is in some way justifying himself and pleasing God by obeying the Old Promise.

    (Gal 5:2- 3 NIV) “Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.” Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.” To be circumcised is to become a Jew and Jews were required to obey all of the Law of Moses to be justified, not just part of it.

    God says, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” (Gal 5:4)

    The Old Law was rules and regulations that if one obeyed completely they could be saved, but the New Law is different (Gal 5:14 NIV) “The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” That is why it is called The New Testament.

    (Gal 3:21-25 NIV) “Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”

    If anyone believes they must practice the Old Law, the Law of Moses, they are sliding back into the prison of the Law. Jesus abolished the Law of Moses (Eph 2:15 NIV) “by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace”. The law with its commandments and regulations no longer exists. (Heb 8:13 NIV) “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” That is to say if we let it disappear.

    I have written almost a book in answer to your last comment, but only a small part is here. However I know that God will not let me sharpen you. Your feet are firmly planted in the Old Testament and you will not consider that there is a New Testament. The Old Covenant or Testament has passed away and God no longer honors it. (Heb 8:13 NIV) “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.”

    So, I will only tell you this, I am a Christian, not a Jew. I strive to do what a Christian is told to do: not what a Jew was told to do. They are different commands for different times.

    Christians meet on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7) and celebrate Jesus, who did all of the work necessary for any man’s salvation. Jews meet on the seventh day of the week and celebrate the day when no work can be done and do not understand what the Sabbath pointed to. I am a Christian, not a Jew. Jews do not meet with Christians and certainly will not join in Communion with Christians. I am a Christian, not a Jew.

    Christians meet on the first day because it is a new beginning, a new day, a day to celebrate life, and a day where no work by man can bring life. A day to celebrate Communion and remember the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior the way He told us to. That is, (1 Cor 11:23-26 NIV) “For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

    As a Christian I am told not to give up meeting together, so I meet with other Christians on the first day of the week, because that is the day we meet. I am a Christian, not a Jew. And I am not going to become one by trying to obey a Law that was a curse. (Gal 3:10 NIV) “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

    I live by faith in Jesus, That is to say that His Sacrifice was sufficient for the forgiveness of all of my sins. If I tried to add anything to that Sacrifice, such as obeying the Sabbath ritual of the Jews, I am quite sure it would not please my Father. My faith would be in both the Sacrifice of my Lord and in my works. I must depend on God’s mercy and not on any work that I might do to please Him.

    (2 Cor 3:6 NIV) “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

    I would recommend that you stop practicing the Old Covenant that kills and devote yourself to the New Covenant that gives life.

    (Gal 4:9-12 NIV) “But now that you know God–or rather are known by God–how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong.”

  54. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    Your argument with me is based incorrectly because you believe that I am telling you that following the sabbath or God’s other laws can save you, but I never said that. This is similar to your accusation that I have not baptized. We can only be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Twisting of words.

    What I am saying is that a person with God’s Spirit can follow his law. Maybe not perfectly, but we do try. We cannot just discard eternal law. What needs to be taken into consideration is all scripture and if all scripture does not fit with our belief, then maybe it is our belief that is incorrect. What you say about the law being a curse is also incorrect. The law is not the curse. It is death by not following the law that is the curse. That is what has been taken away. We are no longer under the death penalty for committing sin, but rather learn to do what is correct by trying again and yes, by doing a bit of work.

    Your belief cannot reconcile scripture. Take the following as examples:

    Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 
    Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 
    Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 
    Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 

    We know that this has not been fulfilled because heaven and earth have not passed. I have used this example before, but it is obvious you would like to ignore it. If you continue reading, you will notice that if anything the law has been magnified and made honorable just as the prophet Isaiah spoke. But not in everyone’s mind that is obvious because not everyone has God’s Spirit or lives by it.

    Continue reading Matthew 5 to understand for yourself how it has been magnified and if you would like more scripture to back this up, then ask and I will give you all that I know of.

    A new promise? No. It is the same promise only the covenant has been revised so that we are capable of following the commitments and not by the word, but by faith and through Spirit.

    Replacement theology is dangerous. Old promises for new. Sunday for sabbath. Easter for Passover and Unleavened Bread. And Christmas? Santa Claus and Easter bunnies in replacement for God’s Word. I can only say that there is a bad spirit at work here. And one verse from Acts? That will never replace God’s eternal sabbath.

    I prefer to obey my Father rather than man. We all have free choice. I would not want to take that away from any one because I would not want it taken away from me. The sabbath is a blessing along with all of God’s law. Curse? Wow. Disassociating oneself from the Israel of God I also will not do. We have been grafted in to God’s vine.

    Faith without works is dead.

    I continue to pray knowing in my heart we will all, finally, one day, understand.

    Heb 4:9  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

  55. creationwitness says:

    1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 
    1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 
    1Jn 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 
    1Jn 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 
    1Jn 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 
    1Jn 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 

  56. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    All of the scripture you use to do away with God’s law, I use to know him and understand. To do His will does not mean to seek ways to disobey him. You may call me a legalist, but you would be incorrect. I am obedient. I therefor do not require law, because I follow the law. I do not follow out of the obligation to a covenant that I did not commit as you believe. I follow out of faith that it is the correct way to live. I follow out of deeply felt love and faith in Jesus Christ. I follow knowing it is right and I know it is right by the Spirit in me.

    Psa 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. 

    I also understand:

    1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    That is a bit extensive, but notice that disobedience is listed? How can I love my neighbor if I disobey God? There isn’t any love in that.

    Cheers brother. Time to wake up..

  57. creationwitness says:

    astudent,

    Some scripture that I was reading through today helps give us a better idea of how scripture really does, all fit together:

    Luk 18:18-27 KJV
    (18)  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    (19)  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
    (20)  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
    (21)  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
    (22)  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
    (23)  And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
    (24)  And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
    (25)  For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    (26)  And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
    (27)  And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

    This man is asking what is required of him to attain to eternal life and
    Jesus lists a few of the ten commandments which the man of course is abiding by, but what he was lacking was a spiritual life as he remained in the world of money. To the man, money was more important than eternal life. Jesus then goes on to explain: with men (carnal life) it is impossible. With God (spiritual life) all things are possible.

    Couple this scripture with some of Romans and we can come to a better understanding that it is not by the law that can attain to eternal life, but by God’s Spirit. This does not do away with the law, but establishes it and fulfills it because with God’s Spirit we can overcome sin.

    Rom 3:31 KJV
    (31)  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Rom 8:13 KJV
    (13)  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    If this helps to even see a small portion of the puzzle, the delight of putting the remainder in place is going to be far more understandable and enjoyable.

    Show a bit of faith. Obey your Father. You will not have any regrets. You may even wake up a few of the circumcised.

    I pray this useful to anyone reading. Bless you brother.

  58. astudent says:

    creationwitness,

    For the last time I will try to explain that you are wrong about obeying and disobeying the law given to the Jews.

    Please examine Matthew 12:1 -14 using your idea or understanding that one displeases God by doing something that is unlawful on the Sabbath.

    Notice that the Pharisees took your side and were rebuked for it. Jesus said they condemned the innocent. Isn’t that what you seek to do to me, to condemn me and anyone else that does not obey the Sabbath Law? You do not understand that I am as innocent as the disciples. In condemning me you are acting like a Pharisee, are you not?

    The Pharisees knew the Law, but they did not understand it and neither do you.

    We all know that Jesus did not break the Law and yet He healed on the Sabbath. To heal someone would be to do work and He healed on the Sabbath. How does that fit with your understanding? Would you condemn Jesus as well as me?

    (Mat 12:1-14 NIV) At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread–which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

    “If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.” You also do not know what those words mean.

    Jesus commanded an evil spirit to come out of a man on the Sabbath (Mark 1:21-26) and healed Simon’s mother-in-law and then healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, on the same day (the Sabbath). Would you condemn Jesus for not observing the Sabbath, just as you condemn me?

    (Mark 3:4 NIV) ”Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.” Jesus did not say ‘do nothing on the Sabbath’, but do something: do good, not do nothing. You do not understand the Sabbath.

    (Mark 3:5 NIV) “He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored.” Do you think that Jesus looks at you in anger, and is deeply distressed at your stubborn heart? I do, but then who am I?

    (Luke 6:5 NIV) Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
    If you understood you would know that we are in the seventh of the days of creation. That is the Sabbath and that Jesus completed the Jewish ritual of the Sabbath and also all of the other rituals that pointed toward the coming of the Messiah.

    The law that has not been changed is summed up in the new command that Jesus gave to us. (John 13:34 NIV) “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another”. But it is not a totally new command. (2 John 1:5-6 NIV) “And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

    (Luke 6:7 NIV) “The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath.” You are taking the place of a Pharisee and watching me closely to see if I do something wrong on the Sabbath!

    Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice in my place that I might be released from the penalty for violating the Law and He ended the law when He did so. There are only two commands that God wants me to obey and they are (Mat 22:34-40 NIV)”Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    You see that there is nothing about the Sabbath in those verses. If you wonder why, then consider that if you only did nothing on the Sabbath and your brother needed your help, and you knew it, you would be disobeying the second commandment! You would be obeying the command about the Sabbath that God gave to the Jews, but you would be disobeying the command of Jesus. That is the new and yet old command that our Lord and savior gave to us.

    You see, you do not understand. If you really want to obey the Sabbath, then go find someone to help and help him, or her. That is on the Sabbath or any other day, for that matter.

    Do not be like a Jew (Rom 10:2 NIV) “For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.” Do not put your faith in your own understanding, (Prov 3:5 NIV) “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;”

    Consider all verses of God’s Word, not just the ones that seem to support your views.

    Now, I know, that is to say that I am absolutely sure that I cannot sharpen you. However, I must point you toward the Word of God, which refutes your claims. Please consider, without immediately discounting, what I say. I am only pointing to what God has said. It is not I that am right and you are wrong, but it is God that is right.

    creationwitness, if you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

    (1 Cor 6:12 NIV) “Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything.

    (Col 2:13-17 NIV) “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, HAVING CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration OR A SABBATH DAY. THESE ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS THAT WERE TO COME; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”

    You see, God has commanded me not to let you judge me in regard to a Sabbath day. Who do you think that I will obey or believe, God or you? Of course, I will not let you judge me in regard to a Sabbath day. The Sabbath ritual was a shadow of things that WERE to come. Meaning the law of the Sabbath was completed or ended when Jesus came. Jesus canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

    Creationwitness, I think that in your mind, that you mean well, but you have no more understanding than a Jew. (Rom 10:2 NIV) “For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.”

    I do not say this as a testimony to my grasp or understanding of the Word of God. Any understanding that I might have is a gift of God and not something that I should be proud of myself, because of any effort on my part. I do not view our comments as a contest between us as to who understands more than the other, but an honest quest for understanding.

    It seems to me that you are one of the men in the illustration of the stop sign that I believe God gave me. You have firmly planted your feet where you are and therefore cannot see the sign from any other angle. The sign represents the Word of God and must be viewed from all angles before one can understand it. When you quote the Bible you quote truth, but because you have limited yourself to only one view, you cannot understand.

    Anyway, we are wasting our time here. You cannot judge me in regard to a Sabbath day, because I will not let you and I cannot sharpen you, because God will not let me. God is proved right twice again. Iron cannot sharpen iron and we should avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

    Your argument is with God, not me. Convince Him that you can obey the law. You cannot convince me.

    I am done with this foolish controversy, argument, or quarrel about the law. It is truly unprofitable and useless.

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