A little while ago I wrote a post titled “Atheist why do you do that”. I asked for an explanation, but as of yet I have not received one that really answered my question. So far the only thing that you have done is try to ruin my faith in God. Which is what caused me to ask the question in the first place.
I guess me asking you to examine your own beliefs is just too much to ask. Even your silence was enough to make me think about your motives.
First I think I understand the game (I’m sure you will deny the accuracy of my deductions). You all hide and wait, then one of you throws out the bait (A Post). Along comes some Christian that believes you just don’t know the truth and he believes he can help you. He doesn’t know (At first) that you don’t care about the truth. When he bites and comments on your bait you all jump out and try your best to destroy his, or any one else’s faith.
The Christian is at somewhat of a disadvantage as he must answer with the truth as he understands it, but you have no such limits. Therefore you are free to attack his character, intelligence, or anything else you can think of.
Don’t take me wrong. The game can be fun for both sides if both sides understand the game and the Christian doesn’t take it too seriously. (Thinks he can help you)
However, that is not why I am writing this post. I know why you play the game.
No one puts forth much effort without expecting something in return.
So what drives you to put so much effort in trying to convince others that you are right is nothing more than pure vanity! You are proud of your intelligence and you just can not get enough strokes. Have you never pondered why anyone would be proud of something they didn’t produce?
It is impossible for you to learn anything because you would have to admit that you were wrong (Or not completely right) about something. You are way to perfect for that. If you were to admit that you could be wrong all of your friends would abandon you. You would not fit in with all of the super intelligent beings that have determined, by their own un-provable theories, that there is no God.
You need your friends because they give you strokes and you need strokes. When they leap out of the bushes they usually complement you for your great understanding and you, of course, must return the complement (If you don’t you might not get stroked the next time).
You may well be intelligent (No I’m not playing the game), but you waste it on yourself.
Why spend your time trying to convince Christians that they are wrong when, if their beliefs are applied, will only benefit you and all society? Is that really intelligent?
If you are truly intelligent go find a cure for cancer, find a way to go to the stars, do something constructive. Or would that put your intelligence to the test?
Actually your constant attempts to destroy Christian beliefs put your intelligence to the test and you fail!
“O” by the way, I’m not being a bad Christian for saying this. Because I am a Christian I must obey the second royal law “(Luke 6:31 NIV) Do to others as you would have them do to you.” If I were in your shoes I would want someone to wise me up.
Bible study by a student 
“what drives you to put so much effort in trying to convince others that you are right is nothing more than pure vanity” – how is this any different than when Christians evangelise? I disagree that it’s vanity, but if anything more a hope to “help” the poor deluded Christians. Now, while I enjoy a good debate, I am happy to concede that you are entitled to your beliefs (with or without justification – although I have much more respect for those who can justify their beliefs), providing your beliefs have no impact on my quality of life.
While I certainly agree that some atheists go out of their way to attack/convert/discredit/etc theists, I think there are just as many (if not more) who play this game the other way around.
Oh, and I’d comment on the other post you mention, but you didn’t like to it!
(oh, and the poor deluded Christians comment – that wasn’t meant to be MY opinion, but the opinion of many “evangelistic” atheists – just in case there was any confusion)
You got us! We’ve been involved in this massive online ‘Christian jumping’ conspiracy for so long I guess it was just a matter of time before some one found us out.
Oh, and we’ve been consorting with aliens to hide your keys, remote controls and other common things just to mess with your head, take that!
We also steal people’s socks.
Richard,
You asked, “how is this any different than when Christians evangelise?”
Christians evangelize because we care about others. If we are correct (I do respect your views) then life is permanent and when we leave this world atheist will live forever in torment. I personally would not want even my worst enemy to spend eternity in Hell. I stated, in my post, why I think you evangelize and there is a big difference.
You say, “Now, while I enjoy a good debate, I am happy to concede that you are entitled to your beliefs (with or without justification – although I have much more respect for those who can justify their beliefs), providing your beliefs have no impact on my quality of life.”
First Christians have a Book that is thousands of years old that explains what we believe and that, at least to us, justifies it. You have many books, books of theories, which change all the time and yet you say your views are justified? Right now your basic belief is the “Big Bang” theory (except there had to be something before it, so it can not be the basic theory). What will tomorrow bring?
How could my beliefs have any impact on your “quality” of life? As a Christian I am bound by the Words of the Bible and it says, “Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.” That about covers any impact I might have on your, or anyone’s “quality” of life.
Atheists,
I have some comments here, but I still do not have an answer. If I am wrong then why do you really do that? Everyone so far has been supposedly interested in how I justify my beliefs and trying to change them. How do you justify trying to change them? Can no atheist examine his or her own beliefs? Is it only someone else’s beliefs that can be examined? “Atheist why do you do that?”
What you ask is not that atheists explain their beliefs, but their lack of belief. Your belief is based upon the bible, a book that I find totally unbelievable. An historical, rather than religous look at the Council of Nicea may enlightened you.
The bible is a wonderful book. It has murder, intrgue, incest, adultery, magic, witches, lots of gods, devils, angels, war and just about anything you could think of to satisfy your fantasies. It’s a collection of stories and legends handed down from generation to generation by illiterate shephards sleeping in tents along side their sheep and goats. I DO NOT believe it to be the word of an almighty being. The bible cannot even be considered an historical document. Aside from the bible there is no historical evidence for the exitance of Jesus, Moses, the great flood, the parting of the Red Sea or any of the supposed miracles. I don’t believe in a firmament with windows that god opens to pour water through when humans need rain. I don’t believe people are swallowed by big fish only to emerge later. I don’t believe the Earth is flat and I don’t believe the sun stands still in the sky. I don’t believe the bible offers any realistic evidence for the existance of a suppreme being. Idon’t believe christianity to be any more real than Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Shinto or any of the hundreds of tribal religions of Africa, Asia, S America or of the Native Americans. And I don’t believe in the existance of the Christian god any more than I believe in the 10,000 gods that came before him. Egyptians believed for 4000 years that Ra the sun god rode his golden charriot across the sky. Nope, don’t believe in him either.
I don’t believe morals come from your bible. Were there no laws in ancient Egypt against murder, theft and rape prior to Moses hanging with god in the mountains?
What I do believe is that you have a right to believe in whatever fantasy you choose as long as it doesn’t infringe upon my right not to believe. I also believe that you personally don’t have a clear understanding of what atheism is. Not believing is NOT a religion, just as not collecting stamps is NOT a hobby. We simply reject your mythology.
> I personally would not want even
> my worst enemy to spend eternity
> in Hell.
Then you’re more merciful than the supposed God you worship.
There is no evidence that any hell (or heaven, of afterlife of any kind) exists. Everything we know about how the brain works — which is quite a lot these days — suggests that there really can’t be any such thing as an afterlife.
If some atheists try to convince others that faith is wrong, it is often because they see the harm done — have often been harmed themselves by — the actions of others motivated by faith.
When confronted with the absence of evidence for their beliefs, Christians fall back on faith. “It’s a matter of faith.” “You just have to have faith,” and so on. Faith stands in when there are no reasons to believe something which you think you’re “supposed” to believe. Then there is the turnabout, “it takes more faith to be an atheist than to believe in God.” Well, if faith is some sort of virtue, and a good way of knowing what’s true, then if the atheist has more faith, then isn’t the atheist more virtuous, closer to the truth? No? The other choice is that this accusation means that the faithful know that there is something wrong with faith, that it is not a virtue, that it is not a good way of knowing what’s true. But, in standing in for absent reasons, faith means believing something to a degree of certainty which exceeds what is warranted by the available evidence. Now why is that a good idea? Who told you that was a good idea, and why did you believe them? If you will yourself to be more certain that you ought to be about something, who are you fooling except yourself?
Faith is the con man’s greatest invention. it is a way to get you to believe something for which there are not sufficient reasons, and to think that in so doing, that you are a good, virtuous person. It’s quite a neat trick for the con men to have pulled off.
mikey,
How about a little more thought on what one believes. Everyone has beliefs, they can be in God, or science, or some god, or yourself. Atheist believe in themselves. How anyone can believe in themselves amazes me. No man has created a universe, or life, or anything, yet all exists. (Matter can neither be created or destroyed, yet it is here! So it would stand to reason that it was created) My belief as I said is in the Bible. Your belief is in yourself (your intellect). I did not ask you to explain your lack of belief. What is with you people? Can’t you remember the question long enough to give an answer? I ask you “Why do you do that”. Write it on the wall so that you can think clearly about it. (Sorry I get enthused sometimes)
You said, “It’s a collection of stories and legends handed down from generation to Generation. No, it was written, and still is written by scholars.
You said, “Aside from the bible there is no historical evidence for the exitance of Jesus.”
You are way out on this one. How would you explain the abbreviations AD (Anno Domini) (used to indicate that a date comes the specific number of years after the traditional date of the birth of Jesus) and BC (Before Christ)? Did we Christians just have those abbreviations added to dates? Or could that be historical evidence, one might even say proof.
No gods came before the Christian God. He is the same God the Jews worship. He created man therefore He is the first and only God. Before you say I can not prove it, consider that you can not disprove it.
You said, “The bible is a wonderful book.” Now you are cooking.
You said, “It has murder, intrgue, incest, adultery, magic, witches, lots of gods, devils, angels, war and just about anything you could think of to satisfy your fantasies.
You are right about the content and wrong about the intentions. It’s all there to teach you that it is wrong to sin.
You say, “What I do believe is that you have a right to believe in whatever fantasy you choose as long as it doesn’t infringe upon my right not to believe.” No one including God is infringing on your right not to believe. I have the right to tell anyone about God and they have the right not to listen. What’s your problem with that?
You say, “Not believing is NOT a religion, just as not collecting stamps is NOT a hobby.”
As I said there is no such thing as not believing in anything. You have to believe in your own thoughts in order to reject God. It is clear that one of us doesn’t have a clear understanding of what atheism is.
“We simply reject your mythology.”
No you don’t that is what prompted me to ask the question, “Atheist Why Do You Do That”. You spend much time and effort trying to prove that there is no God and that the Bible is not the Word of God. That is not simply rejecting, it is forcefully attempting to change other’s beliefs.
SteveC,
“you’re more merciful than the supposed God you worship.”
Not at all, (Ezek 18:23 NIV) Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
(Ezek 18:32 NIV) For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
There are more verses than that, but that should suffice.
“There is no evidence that any hell (or heaven, of afterlife of any kind) exists.”
And no evidence that they do not.
“Everything we know about how the brain works — which is quite a lot these days -suggests that there really can’t be any such thing as an afterlife.” I personally don’t see the connection. What has flesh to do with spirit? Actually if you think it out the brain is so complicated that it had to be designed. We really know very little about the brain. We don’t even have a theory about life and life is a basic requirement for a working brain.
“If some atheists try to convince others that faith is wrong, it is often because they see the harm done — have often been harmed themselves by — the actions of others motivated by faith.”
Finally someone has attempted to answer my question! Thanks!
You may have a point there. No, you do have a point. It’s just that you are picking on the wrong faith. True Christians are bound by the words of the Bible. Here are some of the verses that qualify a true Christian.
(Luke 6:31 NIV) Do to others as you would have them do to you.
That rules out murder, stealing, lying, unfaithfulness, any sin, even sins that are not specified in the Ten Commandments.
(Rev 22:11 NIV) Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.”
So you can see that a true Christian will cause you no trouble. That is not to say that we will not try to convert you, but if you tell us to shut up we will. (We might start back up at any excuse, where upon you will have to tell us again. I know what you are thinking. No I’m not going to stop posting, but you can stop reading (Your loss)). Anyone can call themselves Christian, but if they do not practice Christianity they are imposters. You should be trying to convert everyone to Christianity, even if you do not believe yourself.
If everyone practiced the 2nd royal law there would be no crime and you would benefit. Instead you try to ruin our faith! It is not logical!
If you truly want to convince someone whose faith will cause you and others harm, convert Muslims. They, as you know, will cut your head off if you don’t recognize their god as the real God. So it will take real bravery though; not the false bravado when one curses God.
As far as faith is concerned, as I said in my last comment, atheist believe in their own understanding. Faith means believing something to a degree of certainty which exceeds what is warranted by the available evidence is certainly true if you believe yourself to be the ultimate authority on God.
“If you will yourself to be more certain that you ought to be about something, who are you fooling except yourself?” I have to ask you the same question though I am not willing myself, I have the Bible to support my views and you have?????
WOW! Do you guys make this stuff up as you go along?
As historical proof for the existance of Jesus you use AD and BC? I thought you were a student, where’s the research? These abbreviations came into use in the 6th century (200 years after the council of NIcea), after a monk searching for the true date of Easter used “AD”. I thought sure you would use Josephus and his “Antiquities” where there are 12 lines referring to the “christ”. Unfortunately, literary scholars believe the passage to be inserted by a well known christian scribe of the time. In the 40 volume “Antiquities” the “christ” gets 12 lines, while Josephus speaks much more often of Hera, Zues and Hercules. Are they also to be assumed real? “Antiquities” was written some 90 years after the supposed death of Jesus.
The bible was written by “scholars”? What a hoot. You don’t even know your own holy book. At a time when the average lifespan for man was 36 years, the first gosphel to be written came 60 years after the supposed death of Jesus.
“No gods came before the christian gods”? lol
I originally came across this blog by way of a google including the word “student”. I don’t normally discuss religion because it’s not worth my time and nobodys mind will be changed. I reponded to this blog, I think, out of boredom. Because I’m no longer bored, I’ll no longer respond. I do suggest that you learn more about your religion (historically) and your bible content before challenging atheists who, unlike myself, enjoy argueing about your mythology. Most of them are former christians and many know the bible far better than you.
astudent says: I have the Bible to support my views and you have????
mikey says: R E A L I T Y
Well, micky,
I used the abbreviations AD and BC because the whole world uses them. The whole world accepts them, but not you cause you got R E A L I T Y! Hummmmm
Kinda makes you wonder why they don’t use BS and AS (Before Santa and After Santa) doesn’t it?
I asked a simple question that if you wanted to answer would have made you evaluate your motives, but you want to play the game (I know more than you, because I’m smarter) (“O” and about everything).
Let me evaluate some of your comment as I see it.
“I don’t normally discuss religion because it’s not worth my time”
(I’m too important for this)
“I’ll no longer respond”
(No one is telling me how smart I am)
“I do suggest that you learn more about your religion (historically) and your bible content before challenging atheists who, unlike myself, enjoy argueing about your mythology. Most of them are former christians and many know the bible far better than you.”
(All atheists know more than Christians do about the Bible (And of course everything else) and I’m just trying to do you a favor. I don’t like arguing about the Bible, but just to do you a favor I’m going to ignore the content of this post and argue about religion)
micky, you prove my point. It’s just vanity pure and simple.
SteveC,
I was thinking about your comment that some atheists see the harm done by those of faith and I thought of the harm done by those who were atheists (Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, just a few) it seems to me that an atheist which becomes powerful enough will do anything to anybody that he wants to. Why wouldn’t he if he doesn’t believe in Hell? How would it benefit the Christian or anyone else to convert someone to atheism? If someone would do the things that these atheists did we would know that he was not a Christian, because he would not be obeying the Bible. We know these mega-murderers are atheists. I wonder if it bothers atheists to be classed with them?
If I ever lost my faith in God the last thing I would want to be called is atheist.
“Well, micky,
I used the abbreviations AD and BC because the whole world uses them. The whole world accepts them, but not you cause you got R E A L I T Y! Hummmmm”
Are you really that ignorant? The whole world accepts AD and BC? Ever been to China, or any other Asian country? They don’t use AD and BC, do you know why? Because AD and BC are Christian terms, developed, as Mikey pointed out, by a monk 200 years after Christ’s supposed death, and Christianity never gained a foothold in China, or Asia in general.
“Kinda makes you wonder why they don’t use BS and AS (Before Santa and After Santa) doesn’t it?”
No, it doesn’t.
“I asked a simple question that if you wanted to answer would have made you evaluate your motives, but you want to play the game (I know more than you, because I’m smarter) (“O” and about everything).”
As I already pointed out, claiming that there is some sort of Atheist conspiracy to bait Christians into debate is possible one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard in my life.
“SteveC,
I was thinking about your comment that some atheists see the harm done by those of faith and I thought of the harm done by those who were atheists (Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, just a few)”
First of all, Hitler wasn’t an Atheist, he was actually quite deranged, and convinced that if he could find certain Christian artifacts they would help him conquer the world. Even if he had been you can’t ignore the fact that virtually all of the Christian church in Germany stood by and allowed the Holocaust to happen, even at times participating. Either way when an Atheist does do something horrible you can’t claim he was motivated by any ‘beliefs’ because there is no set of Atheist beliefs. Religion on the other hand often gives justification and motivation to those who commit atrocities.
“it seems to me that an atheist which becomes powerful enough will do anything to anybody that he wants to.”
Have you any proof of this? Or is this just more ‘faith’?
“Why wouldn’t he if he doesn’t believe in Hell?”
How about common decency?
“How would it benefit the Christian or anyone else to convert someone to atheism?”
Er…it wouldn’t. Which might explain why Christian’s don’t.
“If someone would do the things that these atheists did we would know that he was not a Christian, because he would not be obeying the Bible.”
Where as when someone offers to murder his son because a voice in his head told him too, that’s good ol’ Christian family values.
“We know these mega-murderers are atheists.”
We do? I already explained that Hitler was not an Atheist, I don’t know much about Pol Pot or Stalin, but considering your immense lack of factual information thus far, I’m a little skeptical.
“I wonder if it bothers atheists to be classed with them?”
I don’t classify myself with anyone. Atheism is not a coded system of beliefs, it’s only the rejection of the existence of god, to state that Atheists are similar in any belief beyond that is silly.
“If I ever lost my faith in God the last thing I would want to be called is atheist.”
I wouldn’t worry if I where you; blind, ignorant, uneducated faith is generally pretty hard to lost. But you should probably be ware of picking up a book, then you might be in danger.
Gee Chippy I didn’t make you mad, did I?
“Well, micky,I used the abbreviations AD and BC because the whole world uses them. The whole world accepts them, but not you cause you got R E A L I T Y! Hummmmm”
“Are you really that ignorant? The whole world accepts AD and BC? Ever been to China, or any other Asian country? They don’t use AD and BC, do you know why? Because AD and BC are Christian terms, developed, as Mikey pointed out, by a monk 200 years after Christ’s supposed death, and Christianity never gained a foothold in China, or Asia in general.”
Thank you for pointing out my error. What I should have said is billions of people in many nations; which really doesn’t change the significance of the statement.
“I asked a simple question that if you wanted to answer would have made you evaluate your motives, but you want to play the game (I know more than you, because I’m smarter) (“O” and about everything).”
“As I already pointed out, claiming that there is some sort of Atheist conspiracy to bait Christians into debate is possible one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard in my life.”
Then just answer the question “Atheist Why Do You Do That”. I’ll even agree with you it is ludicrous, but it seems to me to be true. If I’m wrong just answer the question “Atheist Why Do You Do That”. Instead of answering the question you just go on doing that!
“SteveC,
I was thinking about your comment that some atheists see the harm done by those of faith and I thought of the harm done by those who were atheists (Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, just a few)”
“First of all, Hitler wasn’t an Atheist, he was actually quite deranged, and convinced that if he could find certain Christian artifacts they would help him conquer the world. Even if he had been you can’t ignore the fact that virtually all of the Christian church in Germany stood by and allowed the Holocaust to happen, even at times participating. Either way when an Atheist does do something horrible you can’t claim he was motivated by any ‘beliefs’ because there is no set of Atheist beliefs. Religion on the other hand often gives justification and motivation to those who commit atrocities.”
Well, Hitler didn’t believe in the God of the Bible. That should be obvious to anyone. Actually Hitler called himself Catholic, (you didn’t do any research at all, but that doesn’t stop you of ridiculing me for it) but I can call myself six foot tall and handsome, though anyone can see I’m not (Unless you cover your eyes) and it is just as easy to see that Hitler was in no way Christian. I will take your word that Hitler believed in magic, though I am somewhat skeptical, but that is not God, or any god. One doesn’t have to believe in a religion to believe some artifact would work magic. There is no such artifact listed in the Bible to have such a power. The Christian religion in no way gives justification or motivation to anyone who commits atrocities.
“virtually all of the Christian church in Germany stood by and allowed the Holocaust to happen.”
As did the atheist. Have you read Rev. 22:11? (That should be a real revelation to you) If God who has the power to stop sin doesn’t, who am I to stop it. I know you do not understand that, but you could if you would ask God.
“it seems to me that an atheist which becomes powerful enough will do anything to anybody that he wants to.”
“Have you any proof of this? Or is this just more ‘faith’?”
What would you accept as proof? Hitler was responsible for the death of about 59 million people, but you deny that he was atheist. Stalin about 44 million, but who really knows? Pol Pot only one to three million. I have read articles that say communism is a god and perhaps it is. If you want to view gods in that manner then there are no atheists. Looking at it from a slightly different angle anyone who is a true Christian must treat others as they want others to treat them. Therefore a true Christian can not harm others.
“Why wouldn’t he if he doesn’t believe in Hell?”
“How about common decency?”
One doesn’t become powerful by practicing common decency. That is one of the reasons why you should have no fear of Christian domination of the government.
“How would it benefit the Christian or anyone else to convert someone to atheism?” “Er…it wouldn’t. Which might explain why Christian’s don’t.”
Well, yes you can read that sentence two ways. The way it was meant (It would not benefit anyone including Christians, to convert someone to atheism) or you could read it your way (Which is not the way it was meant). Er….don’t you understand?
“If someone would do the things that these atheists did we would know that he was not a Christian, because he would not be obeying the Bible.”
“Where as when someone offers to murder his son because a voice in his head told him too, that’s good ol’ Christian family values.”
I suppose you are speaking of Abraham. Do you not really know the account or are you being loose with the details on purpose? Abraham didn’t offer to murder anyone, it was God that commanded a sacrifice (And He has every right to take anyone’s life and He always takes everyone’s) and it is not family values; it was a test of faith.
“We know these mega-murderers are atheists.”
“We do? I already explained that Hitler was not an Atheist, I don’t know much about Pol Pot or Stalin, but considering your immense lack of factual information thus far, I’m a little skeptical.”
There you go again trying to belittle me to make yourself look good. If you really want to look good answer the question. Are you too doing me a favor by arguing religion and trying to disparage me instead of answering the question? I might add (again) that you didn’t even know Hitler claimed to be a Catholic yet you slam me for an “immense lack of factual information”. We share a common trait; we are both a little skeptical: perhaps two as we both lack factual information.
“I wonder if it bothers atheists to be classed with them?”
“I don’t classify myself with anyone. Atheism is not a coded system of beliefs, it’s only the rejection of the existence of god, to state that Atheists are similar in any belief beyond that is silly.”
Everyone believes in something; if not God, then their own understanding. If you are tall, you are classed with the tall, whether you want to be or not.
“If I ever lost my faith in God the last thing I would want to be called is atheist.”
“I wouldn’t worry if I where you; blind, ignorant, uneducated faith is generally pretty hard to lost. But you should probably be ware of picking up a book, then you might be in danger.”
(Gee, there you go again trying to belittle me)
Well, I’m reassured because my faith is not blind, ignorant, or uneducated and I’m glad that it is “pretty hard to lost”. I’ll continue to “be ware” of any book that I pick up and will always test it for truth as there really is danger in man’s books.
Thanks for your input. I do like to be corrected when I error; that is the only way to truth and you did rightly correct me about AD and BC. No man is perfect, nor will be, but if he ascribes to truth then he has to admit it when wrong. Now if you will stop arguing religion and tell me why atheists keep trying to convert me to atheism maybe we can get somewhere.
I thought I made my answer clear, Atheist don’t. While I’m sure a select few attempt to convert the religious, you’ve provided me with no reason to believe that Atheists on a large scale, regularly engage in some sort of conspiracy like recruitment. I would say that for the most many Atheist are generally intellectually minded people who enjoy a debate, or (and I readily admit I fall into this category) simply enjoy pointing out the gaping logical holes in the kind of logic on display here.
“Well, Hitler didn’t believe in the God of the Bible. That should be obvious to anyone. Actually Hitler called himself Catholic, (you didn’t do any research at all, but that doesn’t stop you of ridiculing me for it) but I can call myself six foot tall and handsome, though anyone can see I’m not (Unless you cover your eyes) and it is just as easy to see that Hitler was in no way Christian. I will take your word that Hitler believed in magic, though I am somewhat skeptical, but that is not God, or any god. One doesn’t have to believe in a religion to believe some artifact would work magic. There is no such artifact listed in the Bible to have such a power. The Christian religion in no way gives justification or motivation to anyone who commits atrocities.”
I’m a little unsure why you’re claiming I ‘didn’t do my research’ considering I never claimed Hitler wasn’t a Catholic, actually I never claimed he was of any particular religion, only that he clearly had spiritual beliefs, and thus can’t be considered an Atheist. If you’d like to do you own research on the subject, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs) Wikipedia article does a good job of examining the issue, either way you clearly can’t claim that he was an Atheist, and thus can’t contribute his atrocities to such a belief.
Furthermore in Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus “made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross.” So while there is clearly little evidence that he was an Atheist, there is some evidence that what is often seen as the New Testament’s intolerance of the Jewish people was at the very least used to justify the Holocaust in Hitler’s eyes.
On another note, you seem to imply that Catholicism isn’t really Christianity, which begs the question; do you then believe Christianity came into existence not in the years following Christ’s supposed death, but almost 1500 years later with Martin Luther’s reforms?
“One doesn’t become powerful by practicing common decency. That is one of the reasons why you should have no fear of Christian domination of the government.”
Here you trip on your own logic, if you cannot come to power through decency (which implies that one must be implicit in things immoral in order to gain power) then how would you suggest Christians come to power without violating their own ethics? I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that history is on my side, considering the myriad of atrocities committed by religious regimes throughout history in the name of god. Even a brief review of the recent past in America will yield the unavoidable conclusion that Christian attempts at gaining and using political power have generally created religious leaders whose actions are hardly Christian. Consider Pat Robinson, Jerry Falwell, and even Billy Graham at times (particularly his disturbingly antisemitic conversations with Nixon).
“Well, yes you can read that sentence two ways. The way it was meant (It would not benefit anyone including Christians, to convert someone to atheism) or you could read it your way (Which is not the way it was meant). Er….don’t you understand?”
I’m still unsure of what you mean by this. I’m assuming it’s an attack on the character of all Atheists, that is to say that you’re implying that any conversion of a believer to an Atheist would render said former believer morally bankrupt, and thus it would be detrimental to society. This is littler more than a baseless attack on a group of people that you clearly know little about. Furthermore, to be true it requires the assumption that religious people are better people in general, an assumption that I find highly suspect.
“I suppose you are speaking of Abraham. Do you not really know the account or are you being loose with the details on purpose? Abraham didn’t offer to murder anyone, it was God that commanded a sacrifice (And He has every right to take anyone’s life and He always takes everyone’s) and it is not family values; it was a test of faith.”
You claim that I don’t understand the account of Abraham without pointing out where I misspoke. The fact is you don’t like my version of the story because I refuse to pretty it up. The fact is, if anyone today where to almost kill their child, and then defend their actions by claiming that ‘God’ told them to do it, we would waste no time in taking their children away and placing them in a stable family environment; and we surely wouldn’t hold up his actions as an example of piety.
You then go on too give a ridiculously simplified defense of his actions that fails to confront the problem of the situation. If you’re going to attempt to defend the actions of Abraham you may want to at least invest in a copy of Kierkegaard’s “Fear and Trembling”.
“There you go again trying to belittle me to make yourself look good. If you really want to look good answer the question. Are you too doing me a favor by arguing religion and trying to disparage me instead of answering the question? I might add (again) that you didn’t even know Hitler claimed to be a Catholic yet you slam me for an “immense lack of factual information”. We share a common trait; we are both a little skeptical: perhaps two as we both lack factual information.”
Again, I’m not going to answer your silly question because it’s little more than an over generalization of a whole group of people, is ridiculously over simplified and frankly, is offensive.
Also, I never made a claim on Hitler’s specific religious affiliation, mostly because there is still much debate over the subject to this day, and I don’t feel like engaging in said debate. What I did claim was that he clearly had some religious/spiritual beliefs, and therefore wasn’t an Atheist.
“Everyone believes in something; if not God, then their own understanding. If you are tall, you are classed with the tall, whether you want to be or not.”
Of they do, and I made that clear when I stated that Atheists do not believe in god, the point is that beyond that there are no general beliefs that can be attributed to Atheists as a whole. Practitioners of the major religions on the other hand have set, codified systems of beliefs and world views that can be generalized to all practitioners of those religions (obviously with reasonable difference among the several sects of said religions).
“(Gee, there you go again trying to belittle me)
Well, I’m reassured because my faith is not blind, ignorant, or uneducated and I’m glad that it is “pretty hard to lost”. I’ll continue to “be ware” of any book that I pick up and will always test it for truth as there really is danger in man’s books.
Thanks for your input. I do like to be corrected when I error; that is the only way to truth and you did rightly correct me about AD and BC. No man is perfect, nor will be, but if he ascribes to truth then he has to admit it when wrong. Now if you will stop arguing religion and tell me why atheists keep trying to convert me to atheism maybe we can get somewhere.”
I’m not attempting to convert you as said conversions rarely happen, I’ve never reasoned anyone out of their faith, I just get a kick out of exposing the chinks in your logical armor.
Chippy,
“I thought I made my answer clear, Atheist don’t. While I’m sure a select few attempt to convert the religious, you’ve provided me with no reason to believe that Atheists on a large scale, regularly engage in some sort of conspiracy like recruitment. I would say that for the most many Atheist are generally intellectually minded people who enjoy a debate, or (and I readily admit I fall into this category) simply enjoy pointing out the gaping logical holes in the kind of logic on display here.”
Well, Chippy, I thought I made my question clear, the question was not, “Why do atheist on a large scale, regularly engage in some sort of conspiracy, like recruitment”. It was “Atheist Why Do YOU Do That”.
You are doing exactly what every other atheist, that has commented, has done. You dance around the question and then begin to argue religion.
Get a grip man. You are an atheist and you are doing “That” (Trying to destroy my faith).
I have explained in my posts that it is not logical to destroy any Christian’s faith, though it might benefit society to destroy some other religions. What is wrong with the logic that I applied to that statement?
I use to agree with your statement that “most atheist are generally intellectually minded people”, but I am losing my faith in atheist! (I thought you would enjoy that)
In order to answer my question you must first search your own mind. Ask yourself, what is my underlying motive for arguing religion? You say because you enjoy it, but why do you enjoy it?
I gave you the reasons that seem apparent to me and you fit them. You said, “Atheist are generally intellectually minded people” (I’m an intellectual) then you try to belittle my logic (You are not my equal). It’s a trick as old as man, tie the other guy up with explaining his point of view (About everything, that ever happened, in the whole world) and you don’t have to explain yours.
Well, Chippy, I don’t think you can explain “Why YOU Do That”, because you have never considered it, nor will you. You might learn something about yourself if you gave it a try.
I absolutely love an attempt to learn something, especially about God, but that is not your goal. Your goal is to belittle me so that you will look even more intelligent (It doesn’t work) so you can feel good about yourself. Because we have different goals we can never reach an agreement. It’s almost a complete waste of time for me, but because you do it for pleasure you do get something from it. To bad because I have come away with some more knowledge about atheists and you have only an illusion of pleasure.
See if you can search out your real reasons for trying to destroy this Christian’s faith (though our faith can only benefit you) and if, and when you do, then get back to me with your answer so we can really have a discussion.
I would like to be a friend, but you are making it very difficult. You do have some questions that are very good, but you are not really asking to learn from our discussions. It’s a shame because we could both benefit and learn from an honest discussion.
“Well, Chippy, I thought I made my question clear, the question was not, “Why do atheist on a large scale, regularly engage in some sort of conspiracy, like recruitment”. It was “Atheist Why Do YOU Do That”.
You are doing exactly what every other atheist, that has commented, has done. You dance around the question and then begin to argue religion.
Get a grip man. You are an atheist and you are doing “That” (Trying to destroy my faith).”
Again, more logical ineptitude. You can’t pose a question to ALL Atheists and then go on to pretend that what you really meant was to ask why a specific Atheist (i.e. me) does ‘that’ by make ‘you’ in all caps. You claimed that Atheists go around baiting Christians into debate and then blow some ‘Atheist whistle’ to gather their heathen friends to try and bring you down. This idea is insane, there is no conspiracy to destroy your faith. I’m starting to feel like I’m repeating myself here.
“I have explained in my posts that it is not logical to destroy any Christian’s faith, though it might benefit society to destroy some other religions. What is wrong with the logic that I applied to that statement?”
What’s wrong with your logic? There is none. It’s just a baseless statement. And yet again I feel like I’ve answered this before, oh wait, that’s because I have:
“I’m still unsure of what you mean by this. I’m assuming it’s an attack on the character of all Atheists, that is to say that you’re implying that any conversion of a believer to an Atheist would render said former believer morally bankrupt, and thus it would be detrimental to society. This is littler more than a baseless attack on a group of people that you clearly know little about. Furthermore, to be true it requires the assumption that religious people are better people in general, an assumption that I find highly suspect.”
So for the last time, there is no reason to believe that Christian’s are any better people in general than Atheists or people of other religions. In fact, a quick review of history reveals that several atrocities have been carried out in Christ’s name.
“I use to agree with your statement that “most atheist are generally intellectually minded people”, but I am losing my faith in atheist! (I thought you would enjoy that)
In order to answer my question you must first search your own mind. Ask yourself, what is my underlying motive for arguing religion? You say because you enjoy it, but why do you enjoy it?”
Search my mind for you motive? Well I have to admit I’m not a mind reader, so you’re probably going to have to go ahead and explain yourself instead of relying on my figure out what’s going on in your head. As for why I enjoy this, generally I’d say that I find it stimulating to have a good debate, but in this case it’s more out of a desire to point out the fact that you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. Though I must admit it’s getting boring quickly.
“I gave you the reasons that seem apparent to me and you fit them. You said, “Atheist are generally intellectually minded people” (I’m an intellectual) then you try to belittle my logic (You are not my equal). It’s a trick as old as man, tie the other guy up with explaining his point of view (About everything, that ever happened, in the whole world) and you don’t have to explain yours.”
Yes, I am an intellectual (that is to say someone who enjoys the search for truth and a good debate). And you’re right, I don’t see you as my equal. So far you’ve claimed there to be some sort of Atheist conspiracy, tried to assert that the terms AD and BC lend proof the existence of Christ and continue to dodge any real questions while asking me the same question over and over.
“I absolutely love an attempt to learn something, especially about God, but that is not your goal. Your goal is to belittle me so that you will look even more intelligent (It doesn’t work) so you can feel good about yourself. Because we have different goals we can never reach an agreement. It’s almost a complete waste of time for me, but because you do it for pleasure you do get something from it. To bad because I have come away with some more knowledge about atheists and you have only an illusion of pleasure.”
You got me there, I do enjoy belittling people who posit idiotic theories and try to pass them off as truth, bit of an old past time. And of course we can never agree, I thought I made that clear, I just enjoy picking you. And what ‘knowledge’ did you come away with? You haven’t considered most of the questions put to you. All you ‘know’ about is one guy who likes to mess with people like you for shits and giggles. Kudos.
“See if you can search out your real reasons for trying to destroy this Christian’s faith (though our faith can only benefit you) and if, and when you do, then get back to me with your answer so we can really have a discussion.”
How many times do I have to tell you I’m not trying to destroy your faith before you stop implying that I am? I’ve explained several times now that I simply get a kick out of this sort of thing, there is no ‘real reason’ to search out. You can delude yourself into thinking that anyone who disagrees with you just has some kind of subconscious turmoil causing them to do so, but the fact is people disagree with you because they have different beliefs (oh, and because you’re wrong), not for some reason they need to ‘search out’.
“I would like to be a friend, but you are making it very difficult. You do have some questions that are very good, but you are not really asking to learn from our discussions. It’s a shame because we could both benefit and learn from an honest discussion.”
I wouldn’t like to be a friend, I don’t much like you, and I doubt you would much like me, I’m not sure where you got the idea that this was about making friends. And from what I’ve seen I doubt there’s a whole lot I could learn about Christian apologetics from you, if I wanted to I would pick up C.S. Lewis or any other number of intelligent Christian’s who have written books on the subject.
Either way I’m bored with this, have good life.
Chippy,
“You can’t pose a question to ALL Atheists and then go on to pretend that what you really meant was to ask why a specific Atheist (i.e. me)”
What was I thinking???? I should have asked a Buddhist why atheist do that!!!! Or perhaps I should have told every atheist not to answer until you all could!
Gee, I thought that because you were an atheist, and you were trying to destroy my faith, and you were trying to belittle me that you might know why you were acting like that.
Silly illogical me! The word atheist is singular. If I wanted an answer from all atheist I would have used the word atheists, but it would be impossible for all atheist to answer at once. Actually it seems impossible for even one to answer. Perhaps it is another impossible question along with is there really a God.
“So for the last time, there is no reason to believe that Christian’s are any better people in general than Atheists or people of other religions. In fact, a quick review of history reveals that several atrocities have been carried out in Christ’s name.”
The only person that you are listening to is yourself. One more time, anybody can claim anything, but one’s actions speak louder than their words. If anyone is committing atrocities they are not acting as Christians. If anyone does what the bible says to do (Love others and do unto others as you would have them do unto you) they would be better people.
“Search my mind for you motive?”
I apologize Chippy. I thought you understood and was just trying to act like you didn’t, but I see that you really don’t understand.
“And you’re right, I don’t see you as my equal.”
I already knew that, but why do you feel compelled to tell me? Which is along the same lines as why do you feel compelled to try to ridicule me. Which is one of the two reasons I asked the question in the first place.
“I wouldn’t like to be a friend, I don’t much like you, and I doubt you would much like me,”
I doubt that, I like most people. Actually I think you are quite funny.
“And from what I’ve seen I doubt there’s a whole lot I could learn about Christian apologetics from you, if I wanted to I would pick up C.S. Lewis or any other number of intelligent Christian’s who have written books on the subject.”
I never claimed to be a teacher (astudent, get it “a student”) and you don’t want to learn (“if I wanted to”). You just want to demonstrate your great intellectual powers about a subject that you do not understand or even want to.
I wish you the very best in this life Chippy. If you do not admit that you are a sinner and need a Savior this life is the only time you can be happy. I would tell you that I will pray for you, but it would probably make you mad. Maybe I’ll just do it with out telling you. Anyway, I hope you can find something constructive to fill your time.
[…] I did a tag search on ‘agnostic’ and ended up here. I only managed to read up to that comment and almost but not quite all of the original post. It is […]
Sigh,
“I try to stay away from religious debate.”
Then why did you comment? Err… ping back.
“Even the most fanatical of religious individuals are self motivated. Basically, they do it to make themselves feel better under the guise that the true reason is that it helps someone else”
Well, it may come as a surprise, but the things atheist say about me really doesn’t make me fell better and I also realize that it doesn’t help. Atheists, with all of their intelligence do not posses the ability to understand spiritual referents. (Mat 13:13-15, 19, Luke 8:10, John 12:37-40)
“The burden of proof is on theists”
Not so Sigh. God can neither be proved, nor disproved. (He set it up that way) You prove that He doesn’t exist.
“They believe as they do because they were raised that way.”
What about those who turn to God later in life? My parents sent me to Sunday School, but they did not attend themselves. They wanted me to make up my own mind about God and they were wise enough to understand that I had to know both sides of the issue. (I wouldn’t stay for Church, because they didn’t make me)
“A rational human being is someone who thoroughly challenges their beliefs and at the end decides to continue believing in them because they hold up or to discontinue because they don’t.”
I couldn’t agree more.
“They do not question enough.”
I agree with that also. Have you ever asked God that if He is real would He reveal Himself to you? I mean truthfully ask. Then in order to get an answer open the Bible and really search? If you will do this He will answer: even if you do not believe at first.
It is my observation that most atheists only look in the mirror and then accuse me of what they see.
“In life, the only opinion of real importance is that which we choose to believe about ourselves.”
That is only your opinion, but if there was no God it would be true. You are risking everything on an opinion without thoroughly investigating it.
Frankly, the whole debate is meaningless. I find the angry atheist as abhorrant as the angry Christian (or Muslin, or Jew). Try as we will, neither side will ever be successful in convincing the other side they’re right – so where do we go from that premise? Acceptance, love, positivity, respect. Let’s all stop trying to shout “I’m right/you’re wrong” and concentrate on the things that we all, as human beings sharing this plant, have in common – God or no God.
All atheists that I know personally have no interest in debating the existence of God with believers. It is an exercise in futility. The converse is also mostly true. What I have personally experienced, though, is that when people work together toward a common goal – building a community, raising children to be good and responsible adults, or simply getting together for a backyard meal – great things can and do happen. It doesn’t matter who believes in God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the great black nothingness.
I’m tired of the arguments regarding belief vs. non-belief. They ultimately do not matter if people are willing to treat each other with kindness and patience and respect. This is the true test of humanity.
Which am I? Does it matter?
Sigh,
“The only logical conclusion is that the person is attempting to bait.”
Who is baiting? You put a ping back on my comments so that everyone will know your position and then bitch when I answer it where you put it. It is kind of like talking behind someone’s back when you do that.
“I have heard just about every argument there is by Christians far more intellectually capable than this person”
Don’t you even know when you are defaming another person? You didn’t have to say that. You are doing what every atheist before you has done.
“What I like dislike most however, is people take things far too personally. It is no longer about the argument or how well a person can formulate one. It is all about the other person’s character. It’s tainted debate and it is . . . disgusting.”
What you really mean is I am not supposed to take it personal when you state your opinion of me. You are not formulating any argument. You are only doing what disgusts you. (Me to)
By the way, the post was not about any debate: only an observation on my part. Perhaps you have an answer to the question “Atheist Why Do You Do That?” because you do, “do that.”
At the risk of repeating myself “It is my observation that most atheists only look in the mirror and then accuse me of what they see.”
Observantbystander,
What debate? Who is mad? What started this whole thing is I wondered why atheists attack Christians and their faith and I posted it. (Atheist why do you do that?) I explained that they had everything to gain and nothing to lose if I kept my faith. No one answered the question. They just attacked me and my faith: all the time claiming they were not doing so!
It made me think about why and I came up with an answer that seems right to me: which I posted. Whereupon I and my faith were and are attacked and the only answer I have received is “I like to”. That is not an intelligent answer, it is an emotional and self-centered answer, yet every atheist so far has claimed to be more intelligent and rational than I am!
I’M NOT TRYING TO DEBATE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD AT ALL! I agree it is an exercise in futility. Apparently so is getting an honest answer from an atheist. That is not a slam, just an observation. Look at all of the comments and you can see that I have not received an answer yet. I’m still waiting though.
Everyone so far has tried to bait me into an argument about the existence of God and no one has really answered my question. Then they attack me and claim they have all of the answers about God, WHEN THAT WASN’T EVEN THE QUESTION!
You said, “They ultimately do not matter if people are willing to treat each other with kindness and patience and respect.”
Well, if I am right they do “ultimately matter”, but that aside, half of my question was and is why don’t atheists treat me with kindness and patience and respect? I don’t even mind if they continue to treat me disrespectfully. I only wondered why. (And still do)
Don’t accuse me of the same thing as I have been called blind, ignorant, and uneducated just to name a few. I have tried not to answer in kind, although some seem to think that if I say they are wrong about something that I am treating them disrespectfully. If I have not treated anyone with respect I apologize.
“Which am I? Does it matter?”
Not to me.
Sorry, I got in on this a little late in the game and didn’t see your previous post! I have no answers on why athetists try to convince believers that they’re right. Seems like a huge waste of effort to me when there are so many more things we all have in common that we could all be concentrating on. This is where I scratch my head and wonder why either side gets so worked up into a lather. Interesting to read the comments though, and you’re right – there doesn’t seem to be an answer. Nor is there one here either. I wish I could enlighten you but since it’s not part of my psyche to attack belief systems, I wouldn’t have a clue. Ah well. Cheers to you for asking in the first place!
1. “Have you read Rev. 22:11? (That should be a real revelation to you) If God who has the power to stop sin doesn’t, who am I to stop it. I know you do not understand that, but you could if you would ask God.”
2. “Looking at it from a slightly different angle anyone who is a true Christian must treat others as they want others to treat them. Therefore a true Christian can not harm others.”
Perhaps off the point slightly, but don’t these two statements seems at odds with each other? (Nice pun by the way!).
Namely: “…who am I to stop it.” AND “…treat others as they want others to treat them.” Wouldn’t you want others to step in and stop a sin in order to help you? That’s the way I’d like to be treated…
“Therefore a true Christian can not harm others.” But it’s OK to just ‘not help’? Are we not all guilty of the good we didn’t do?
I’ll answer your fucking question.
Ye-gods this debate is boring me, and yet I can’t stop reading it! Dude you are getting trounced by these guys and can’t seem even see it.
PERSONALLY – and I’m getting the impression this is the kind of answer you’re after – PERSONALLY, I ‘bait’ christians (and all cults/sects) because I don’t discount that there *may be a god*. I’m a scientist by nature, you see.
However, I agree with you that man is a bit of a bugger. And as a result of that I find it hard to put stock in a book that is as old and ‘well handled’ as your bible clearly is.
These types of debate are of interest to me (and perhaps others) because ‘your type’ seem to claim some mystic understanding of it all, that ‘we atheists’ just don’t get it, and I’d really love for someone to show me how you can cast aside your *obvious* understanding of the basic badness of mankind – who could easily’ve corrupted your precious book – and believe in something so strongly that you would want to base your life on its teachings without the *one thing* that mankind has striven for from time immemorial – THE TRUTH. FACT. And debate is a proven avenue to fact.
If you truly believe that god made mankind, surely you must also believe that god made ‘atheists’ so damned infuriatingly questioning of all things ‘god’. I am what I am, I can’t change that by closing my eyes (and I feel that I would *have to do so*) to hide from the things that are known (proven) to be fact. Things which make it hard to believe that *any* organised religion is based in FACT because they are all so bloody wishy-washy.
For fuck sakes, make me a believer but don’t try to brainwash me with fairy tales. I’m not the smartest guy in the world, but I’m no idiot and if man wrote that book then I doubt it’s perfectly accurate. It may not even be an ideal translation.
I don’t believe in god – yours or any other (I’m not sure I even believe in me) – I only seek to prove the non-existence and if by doing so I prove the inverse than that’s OK by me, as long as I find what I seek.
The truth. The truth about where everything came from and how it all works. If your god didn’t want us to seek this truth and to instead live in ignorant bliss (believing the bible word for word, Adam and Eve and all that tosh) then he ‘made us’ wrong – except he can’t have done that because god can’t be wrong. Right?
So either your book is wrong, or god is wrong. You choose. Except you won’t, will you?
You say that *god revealed himself* to you. How did that happen then? Cos’ I’ve looked under a lot of rocks (metaphorically speaking) and he hasn’t come out of hiding for me, the crazy little hobgoblin. And I can’t just ignore what I know and feel to have faith in something that hides from me just to piss me off and see me burn.
Heck, maybe I’m the meek and I’ll inherit the earth. Except I don’t bloody want it.
Tony,
The two statements are not at odds to each other when thought out. Suppose I was a terrorist and I was about to kill a bunch of people in the name of my god and you were a true Christian, near and armed. I would want you to step in and prevent me from carrying out my plan (Though not at the time it was happening) as it would only add to my sins and of course it would prolong the lives of some of the innocent victims. Actually everyone would be better off. The danger that I see is to step in before knowing for sure I was a terrorist and going to kill others. I might be a cop and trying to protect others, where upon if you shot me you would be wrong.
Sometimes for the good of others one might commit a sin, or perhaps it wouldn’t be a sin in that situation. You just want to be sure of the situation before acting. Well as sure as a man can be.
You know (I hate that phrase: if you know, then why am I saying anything) one can always come up with some situation that seems to contradict the normal rules and in the process make the rules seem wrong, but that is not really searching for truth.
As for your tirade (you really ought to try to calm down) you say, “Dude you are getting trounced by these guys and can’t seem even see it.” I don’t care. Never did care what others thought of me and I’m not going to start now. If you care what others think about you “personally” you just become their slaves; to please them. This is a contest to you atheist, but it is not to me. You seem to feel that you can prove me wrong, but really you know you can not and to top it off I am not even playing the same game. Kind of funny isn’t it? (And frustrating also)
If you really are a scientist by nature then really look for the truth. You say, “I don’t believe in god – yours or any other (I’m not sure I even believe in me) – I only seek to prove the non-existence and if by doing so I prove the inverse than that’s OK by me, as long as I find what I seek”. Don’t you see that if you proved the inverse you wouldn’t find what you seek? You seek to prove the non-existence (Your words, not mine). That is not scientific or rational, but so biased you can not see truth when it is right in front of you. It is about like someone covering their eyes and saying “I do not see, though I have eyes to see”. You look under rocks with your eyes closed.
I’m not saying this as someone that grew up in the Church. I was an atheist and I sounded just like you, but I opened my eyes and really considered the other view.
I can not make you a believer. That has to come from within you and it can not when you will not even consider that the Bible is really the word of God. If God would grant the power to make men believers, to any Christian, from that point on there would be no more nonbelievers. And we would make a mess of God’s plan.
You imply that God doesn’t want us to seek truth, but the opposite is true. God had to make us imperfect in order for us to have free will to accept or reject Him. If God made us perfect we would understand completely and could not deny Him.
You say, “don’t try to brainwash me with fairy tales” yet you want me to believe man just happened! And that in a universe where nothing is created or improved by itself! Only in the imagination of a man can anything improve without someone causing it. You speak of FACTS, but you have none yourself. Everything that the world of science claim as FACTS, are only THEORYS! Study that before you say I’m wrong.
God is not illogical. If He made a whole universe, life, man, everything that exists in order to have someone to appreciate Him (and if He can do all of that then He certainly deserves to be appreciated) then He had to give man the power to deny His very existence. If He did otherwise He would have those living with Him, but who really do not appreciate Him, but only say they do in order to live.
There is an example in this world of such a situation. Muslims will kill you if you do not accept their god, so there are many who do not believe in their god, but say they do. If a gang of them cornered you, they would change the way others look at you (no longer an atheist), but they can not change how you look at yourself: and because God knows our thoughts, not how He looks at you.
Thanks for the reply,
You said:
“If He did otherwise He would have those living with Him, but who really do not appreciate Him, but only say they do in order to live.”
OR… eternal damnation if you don’t…? That’s not really any different though is it.
Love me (you have no choice) === Love me (or die)
Wow! That’s some real good free will right there. If I’m incapable of loving god, because I can’t find him and I haven’t been brainwashed as a child then I’m basically screwed right? That’s hardly fair! If god turned up and tapped me on the shoulder and said “hey, I made this universe. What d’you think? Good init?”
I’d say “Um, sure. But I do have a few questions…” Only that won’t happen because god doesn’t actually want my opinion or constructive criticism he wants my complete obedience and for me to say “Gee. You’re so cool. I love you.” That’s crap.
You also said:
“Muslims will kill you if you do not accept their god…” As do Christians and most, if not all, major religions… perhaps not so much these days, but it does happen!
On another point, you said:
“That is not scientific or rational, but so biased you can not see truth”
Actually it is both scientific and rational (even if my typing is lousy at 2am). In order to scientifically prove or disprove something you need to start with a theory and work to prove it wrong. That’s science. If you can’t prove it wrong, then it’s most likely right. That’s how science works. I know, I have a degree in Micro-electronics.
If you start out trying to prove something is right, then you’ll most likely take the first positive result and claim victory. That’s not science.
The reason you start with the negative and work towards the positive is that most scientific theorys interlink with existing theorys. It’s like a giant puzzle.
“Study that before you say I’m wrong.” I have…
At least the THEORYS of which I speak have some form of proof, if not complete proof at least SOME proof. Not just a book and some faith.
Case in point, if scientific theorys aren’t correct then I’m not typing on a keyboard right now and this won’t get posted on your website. That’s because nearly everything we use now relys on proven scientific facts, which are all interlinked and undeniable. Most religions rely on a book that we can’t even prove wasn’t made up.
Most of our theorys are based on Mathematics in some way or another – which is not too vague – and time and again proof of theory comes from multiple directions all pointing to the same place. Things interlink in ways that are inseperable, which helps to prove that the theorys are correct. Maths has given us computers, space travel, engines and cities. Even pens!
What more proof do you need that we are right? That doesn’t mean you are wrong… but we *are* right.
That’s something that makes me laugh, the fact that some people claim that sciemce has this wrong, or that wrong, but they are so interlinked that it would mean we have everything else wrong too! Then they type their bogus claims on a website that shouln’t exist!
LOL!
Tony,
That was pretty good. You all most had me, until I realized that it was the one that gave the choice that made the two different. It is a similar demand. However no man has the right to demand that another man accept a god as the one true God: whether he is a Muslim, or a Christian, or any follower of any god. God made every man, so God does have the right to make such a demand.
No Christian that understands the Bible would kill in the name of God. As a matter of fact he wouldn’t even stop the other from sinning: Jesus did not though he could have and he is who we are suppose to emulate. If that example is not clear enough then consider Rev 22:11 (NIV) Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.” There have always been those who claim to be religious that kill in God’s name, but that only proves them wrong.
When I said “that is not scientific or rational” what I meant was it is not scientific to leave out half of the question and only try to prove the nonexistence of God without trying to prove the existence of Him.
If you are starting with the theory that there is a God and trying to prove it “wrong” I would have to say that no one has yet. By the way I applaud you that you think there is a God. By the same token if you believe there is no God and you are trying to prove that theory “wrong” I would hope you succeed. However it seems to me that you have taken the position that there is no God and you are trying to prove yourself right: which is the very thing you say should not be done! That is the position that I once tried to prove and I didn’t have any success. The more I tried to prove myself right the more I proved myself wrong.
All of mans theories are theories about things of this universe and based on how matter interacts in this universe, but God is not of this universe. He is not made of atoms or anything of this world so the rules of this universe do not apply to Him and His existence cannot be proved by applying basic laws of this universe.
You say you are right but that doesn’t mean I am wrong. Well, if the basic question is “Is there a God” then one of us is right and one of us is wrong.
I really think that science has reached a point that mathematically indicates that there is a God and my next post will attempt to explain that theory.